origin of the Trinity doctrine

6 views
Skip to first unread message

David Dalton

unread,
May 8, 2022, 2:06:19 AMMay 8
to
Did the Trinity doctrine originate during Jesus's lifetime, later
but during the lifetimes of the writers of the New Testament,
or even later, and if so, when? Is there any biblical basis
for it?

I have a theory of soul alignment in which Jesus is aligned with
the Eucharistic bread and wine. This theory could also explain
the Trinity if there was a triple soul alignment in which
three share the same soul but have separate consciousnesses.
However I don't believe there is currently such a triple
alignment, but I could be wrong. I will elaborate on this
theory shortly on alt.religion.christian, but would respond
to any questions on here.

Though I am not in the UK, I have posted here since with the
demise of soc.religion.christian this is the only moderated
Christian newsgroup, and I think that some more knowledgeable
sorts frequent this group than the alt groups.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
ttps://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"I gave my love a golden feather/I gave my love a heart of stone/When you
find a golden feather/It means you'll never lose your way back home"(R.R.)


Kendall K. Down

unread,
May 8, 2022, 2:29:53 AMMay 8
to
On 08/05/2022 03:07, David Dalton wrote:

> Did the Trinity doctrine originate during Jesus's lifetime, later
> but during the lifetimes of the writers of the New Testament,
> or even later, and if so, when? Is there any biblical basis
> for it?

As recorded in the gospels, Jesus made certain statements which indicate
a wider teaching concerning the Trinity. For example, the baptismal
formula in Matthew 28 would be of little meaning if He had not already
explained at least something about the three Persons mentioned there.

However the doctrine was not fully developed. St Paul uses language that
is sometimes at variance with the Nicean Creed, but all that indicates
is that the doctrine was still becoming mature and fully accepted. St
John, on the other hand, is completely Nicean in the first few verses of
his gospel (and, indeed, those verses form an important foundation for
the Nicean Creed).

So yes, there is Biblical basis for the doctrine, though its fullest
expression came later and was heavily influenced by concepts current in
the Jewish and Greek worlds of the time. (It would be a mistake to
reject the doctrine on that basis; our modern world owes a tremendous
amount to Greek thought - democracy, the musical scale, the rules of
mathematics, geometry and logic, and so on.)

> I have a theory of soul alignment

I have no idea what you mean but the little elaboration you give does
not sound Christian.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down


David Dalton

unread,
May 9, 2022, 2:48:37 AMMay 9
to
In article <t57ngc$n78$1...@dont-email.me>,
"Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 08/05/2022 03:07, David Dalton wrote:
>
> > Did the Trinity doctrine originate during Jesus's lifetime, later
> > but during the lifetimes of the writers of the New Testament,
> > or even later, and if so, when? Is there any biblical basis
> > for it?
>
> As recorded in the gospels, Jesus made certain statements which indicate
> a wider teaching concerning the Trinity. For example, the baptismal
> formula in Matthew 28 would be of little meaning if He had not already
> explained at least something about the three Persons mentioned there.
>
> However the doctrine was not fully developed. St Paul uses language that
> is sometimes at variance with the Nicean Creed, but all that indicates
> is that the doctrine was still becoming mature and fully accepted. St
> John, on the other hand, is completely Nicean in the first few verses of
> his gospel (and, indeed, those verses form an important foundation for
> the Nicean Creed).
>
> So yes, there is Biblical basis for the doctrine, though its fullest
> expression came later and was heavily influenced by concepts current in
> the Jewish and Greek worlds of the time. (It would be a mistake to
> reject the doctrine on that basis; our modern world owes a tremendous
> amount to Greek thought - democracy, the musical scale, the rules of
> mathematics, geometry and logic, and so on.)

Thanks, Kendall.

David

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)

Adam Funk

unread,
May 9, 2022, 9:09:53 AMMay 9
to
On 2022-05-08, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> On 08/05/2022 03:07, David Dalton wrote:
>
>> Did the Trinity doctrine originate during Jesus's lifetime, later
>> but during the lifetimes of the writers of the New Testament,
>> or even later, and if so, when? Is there any biblical basis
>> for it?
>
> As recorded in the gospels, Jesus made certain statements which indicate
> a wider teaching concerning the Trinity. For example, the baptismal
> formula in Matthew 28 would be of little meaning if He had not already
> explained at least something about the three Persons mentioned there.
>
> However the doctrine was not fully developed. St Paul uses language that
> is sometimes at variance with the Nicean Creed, but all that indicates
> is that the doctrine was still becoming mature and fully accepted. St
> John, on the other hand, is completely Nicean in the first few verses of
> his gospel (and, indeed, those verses form an important foundation for
> the Nicean Creed).
>
> So yes, there is Biblical basis for the doctrine, though its fullest
> expression came later and was heavily influenced by concepts current in
> the Jewish and Greek worlds of the time. (It would be a mistake to
> reject the doctrine on that basis; our modern world owes a tremendous
> amount to Greek thought - democracy, the musical scale, the rules of
> mathematics, geometry and logic, and so on.)

I'll say what I usually do about this: the NT includes things that are
obviously Trinitarian if you interpret them that way, as Church
tradition has from the very early days (and as I do). But I don't
think Christianity consists primarily of agreeing with the right set
of theological propositions.



>> I have a theory of soul alignment
>
> I have no idea what you mean but the little elaboration you give does
> not sound Christian.
>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down
>
>


--
Civilization is a race between catastrophe and
education. --- H G Wells


Mike Davis

unread,
May 9, 2022, 5:49:53 PMMay 9
to
On 09/05/2022 13:46, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-05-08, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>
>> On 08/05/2022 03:07, David Dalton wrote:
>>
>>> Did the Trinity doctrine originate during Jesus's lifetime, later
>>> but during the lifetimes of the writers of the New Testament,
>>> or even later, and if so, when? Is there any biblical basis
>>> for it?
>> As recorded in the gospels, Jesus made certain statements which indicate
>> a wider teaching concerning the Trinity. For example, the baptismal
>> formula in Matthew 28 would be of little meaning if He had not already
>> explained at least something about the three Persons mentioned there.
>>
>> However the doctrine was not fully developed. St Paul uses language that
>> is sometimes at variance with the Nicean Creed, but all that indicates
>> is that the doctrine was still becoming mature and fully accepted. St
>> John, on the other hand, is completely Nicean in the first few verses of
>> his gospel (and, indeed, those verses form an important foundation for
>> the Nicean Creed).
>>
>> So yes, there is Biblical basis for the doctrine, though its fullest
>> expression came later and was heavily influenced by concepts current in
>> the Jewish and Greek worlds of the time. (It would be a mistake to
>> reject the doctrine on that basis; our modern world owes a tremendous
>> amount to Greek thought - democracy, the musical scale, the rules of
>> mathematics, geometry and logic, and so on.)

I would agree with this, and we must remember that the Trinity was not
resolved until the Council of Constantinople (c 360AD) and of course by
Thomas Aquinas much later. And I DO agree with the point that we are
dependant upon Greek philosophical thinking in all this.

> I'll say what I usually do about this: the NT includes things that are
> obviously Trinitarian if you interpret them that way, as Church
> tradition has from the very early days (and as I do). But I don't
> think Christianity consists primarily of agreeing with the right set
> of theological propositions.

I'd suggest (tongue in cheek) that it's the other way round! ;-)

Blessings

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

unread,
May 10, 2022, 1:59:54 AMMay 10
to
On 09/05/2022 22:49, Mike Davis wrote:

> I would agree with this, and we must remember that the Trinity was not
> resolved until the Council of Constantinople (c 360AD) and of course by
> Thomas Aquinas much later. And I DO agree with the point that we are
> dependant upon Greek philosophical thinking in all this.

I think it is important to distinguish between our Trinitarian formulae
and what God actually is. We use Greek philosophy and terms in our
attempt to "explain" God, but almost by definition, God is unknowable
and unexplainable. Although it is proper to be sticklers about the
doctrine, it is also proper to be humble enough to admit that we may be
totally wrong and that the doctrine is merely our attempt to comprehend God.

Kendall K. Down

unread,
May 10, 2022, 1:59:54 AMMay 10
to
On 09/05/2022 13:46, Adam Funk wrote:

> I'll say what I usually do about this: the NT includes things that are
> obviously Trinitarian if you interpret them that way, as Church
> tradition has from the very early days (and as I do). But I don't
> think Christianity consists primarily of agreeing with the right set
> of theological propositions.

Your final statement is, of course, correct, but I would still argue
that correct doctrine is important. You may still be saved if you
believe in an ever-burning hell, but you will be surprised when you get
to heaven and discover that God is actually much nicer than you had been
led to believe.

Mike Davis

unread,
May 10, 2022, 6:29:53 AMMay 10
to
All our theology is an attempt to understand what God is communicating
to us, about Himself and about ourselves, past, present and future. From
that we discern what we should do about it. (eg. behaviour, & true
worship). But I agree that we can never reach the end of His love,
omniscience & omnipotence. Praise Him!

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages