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Interview: Jordan Peterson and Dennis Prager
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Steve Wilson
May 2, 2021, 3:50:07 PM5/2/21
to
If anyone on the group has an odd 54 minutes to spare, perhaps you'd
consider watching this interview of Jordan Peterson by Denis Prager in
which they speak in a very deep way. I was transfixed by it. Peterson
talks about what is really going on in the universities and that if you
are into identity politics you are no longer an individual but an
'avatar of your group'. I shall remember that. Peterson also comments
on the question he commonly gets asked but doesn't like; whether he
believes in God. I think I understand what he's saying but I think he's
misunderstanding what is being asked. If you do watch it, any comments
would be welcome.
https://youtu.be/L47oJxwp6yg
Steve Wilson
Kendall K. Down
May 2, 2021, 4:40:07 PM5/2/21
to
On 02/05/2021 20:48, Steve Wilson wrote:
> If anyone on the group has an odd 54 minutes to spare, perhaps you'd
> consider watching this interview of Jordan Peterson by Denis Prager in
> which they speak in a very deep way.
Sorry. First I was put off by the lengthy eulogium at the beginning,
> If anyone on the group has an odd 54 minutes to spare, perhaps you'd
> consider watching this interview of Jordan Peterson by Denis Prager in
> which they speak in a very deep way.
then the chap started waffling about how you can't be happy unless you
restore your dead father (or some similar nonsense). At that point I
gave up.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
Steve Wilson
May 3, 2021, 9:00:07 AM5/3/21
to
darkest aspects of your life rather than avoiding it as the way to
gaining self-respect and happiness from knowing you have achieved
something valuable and adult. However if you don't like his
Jungian/Freudian language, (I don't much and filter it out along with
his routine references to 'archetypes') you could skip the video along
to 10 minutes section where he starts talking about the the question he
does not like and always gives the answer that he lives 'as if' God
exists. You have to listen carefully to what he says. In a sense he is
right, who can fully believe in God, it's too big an ask and few if any
can achieve it except Christ (I think he's too influenced by Nietzsche
here). However this view is obviously wrong because no one could ever
become a Christian, which is not what the NT teaches. I think he has
misunderstood the question. I think the question actually is; 'do you
believe that God actually exists (ontologically) as an infinite creator
being who has life in himself rather than just an idea or human
construct?'. I think that behind the question is the suspicion that
using 'as if' is a way to approximate Christian belief without
committing to the actual existence of an infinite and self-existent
creator being who incarnated himself in the person of Jesus. I myself
am suspicious because I've noticed atheists sometimes use the same 'as
if' proviso when talking about morality. They will say 'I live as if
there is a moral standard to which we are all duty bound'
To me belief in the *actual* existence of God is a starting point on a
life-long journey towards knowing him in ever greater measure. I think
Peterson jumps right to the end of this process and then in despair,
throws in the towel because he can't measure up. The only other option
is that he is in fact an atheist who sees God as a human construct,
though given his honesty I think he would say so if this was the case.
Steve Wilson
Mike Davis
May 3, 2021, 12:00:04 PM5/3/21
to
Hi Steve,
I was introduced to JP by Bishop Robert Barron - who asked people to
pray for him last year because Jordan was seriously ill.
They have debated over the years, and JP used to call himself an atheist
but doesn't now. (He refuses to state whether he believes in God.)
I find him occasionally interesting but mostly boring. However, I have
just come across a recent (last month) discussion between them:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVrLqpt0APo
I need to listen more to both podcasts before I can comment further.
However, I do recommend Bishop Barron's religious podcasts (and sermons)
for Christian thought.
Blessings
Mike
On 02/05/2021 20:48, Steve Wilson wrote:
>
--
Mike Davis
--
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I was introduced to JP by Bishop Robert Barron - who asked people to
pray for him last year because Jordan was seriously ill.
They have debated over the years, and JP used to call himself an atheist
but doesn't now. (He refuses to state whether he believes in God.)
I find him occasionally interesting but mostly boring. However, I have
just come across a recent (last month) discussion between them:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVrLqpt0APo
I need to listen more to both podcasts before I can comment further.
However, I do recommend Bishop Barron's religious podcasts (and sermons)
for Christian thought.
Blessings
Mike
On 02/05/2021 20:48, Steve Wilson wrote:
>
Mike Davis
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Steve Wilson
May 3, 2021, 1:50:08 PM5/3/21
to
On 03/05/2021 16:54, Mike Davis wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> I was introduced to JP by Bishop Robert Barron - who asked people to
> pray for him last year because Jordan was seriously ill.
>
> They have debated over the years, and JP used to call himself an atheist
> but doesn't now. (He refuses to state whether he believes in God.)
>
> I find him occasionally interesting but mostly boring. However, I have
> just come across a recent (last month) discussion between them:-
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVrLqpt0APo
>
> I need to listen more to both podcasts before I can comment further.
>
> However, I do recommend Bishop Barron's religious podcasts (and sermons)
> for Christian thought.
>
> Blessings
>
> Mike
>
Thanks Mike, it's a long video and will work my way through it bit by
> Hi Steve,
>
> I was introduced to JP by Bishop Robert Barron - who asked people to
> pray for him last year because Jordan was seriously ill.
>
> They have debated over the years, and JP used to call himself an atheist
> but doesn't now. (He refuses to state whether he believes in God.)
>
> I find him occasionally interesting but mostly boring. However, I have
> just come across a recent (last month) discussion between them:-
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVrLqpt0APo
>
> I need to listen more to both podcasts before I can comment further.
>
> However, I do recommend Bishop Barron's religious podcasts (and sermons)
> for Christian thought.
>
> Blessings
>
> Mike
>
bit, but Bishop Barron is impressive.
Steve Wilson
Mike Davis
May 3, 2021, 5:50:07 PM5/3/21
to
Hi Steve
I've now completed listening to the one I pointed out. It's remarkable
by the honesty expressed by both participants and their openness and
personal friendship. But it is hard going at times!
Barron expresses the RC pov, but I don't think anyone here will really
object, but there is a bit at the end, where Barron suggests the use of
the Rosary, and JP understands the meditational concept!
Mike
Kendall K. Down
May 4, 2021, 3:20:07 AM5/4/21
to
On 03/05/2021 13:53, Steve Wilson wrote:
> What he was talking about is facing up to the most challenging and
> darkest aspects of your life rather than avoiding it as the way to
> gaining self-respect and happiness from knowing you have achieved
> something valuable and adult.
And Pinnochio comes into that?
> What he was talking about is facing up to the most challenging and
> darkest aspects of your life rather than avoiding it as the way to
> gaining self-respect and happiness from knowing you have achieved
> something valuable and adult.
> To me belief in the *actual* existence of God is a starting point on a
> life-long journey towards knowing him in ever greater measure. I think
> Peterson jumps right to the end of this process and then in despair,
> throws in the towel because he can't measure up. The only other option
> is that he is in fact an atheist who sees God as a human construct,
> though given his honesty I think he would say so if this was the case.
first step; if you reject that possibility right from the start then no
amount of argument can convince. If you accept it, then you can start to
look at the world and see the evidences for God.
Steve Wilson
May 4, 2021, 3:40:08 AM5/4/21
to
On 03/05/2021 22:47, Mike Davis wrote:
>
> Hi Steve
>
> I've now completed listening to the one I pointed out. It's remarkable
> by the honesty expressed by both participants and their openness and
> personal friendship. But it is hard going at times!
>
> Barron expresses the RC pov, but I don't think anyone here will really
> object, but there is a bit at the end, where Barron suggests the use of
> the Rosary, and JP understands the meditational concept!
>
> Mike
>
I've mentioned this before on this group but we have some RC friends in
>
> Hi Steve
>
> I've now completed listening to the one I pointed out. It's remarkable
> by the honesty expressed by both participants and their openness and
> personal friendship. But it is hard going at times!
>
> Barron expresses the RC pov, but I don't think anyone here will really
> object, but there is a bit at the end, where Barron suggests the use of
> the Rosary, and JP understands the meditational concept!
>
> Mike
>
Malta and we have been to see them a number of times over the years.
One visit in 2012 was over the Easter period so we were taken to the
various processions, including the running Jesus, and went to several
artistic displays of the passion (Wirja), many of which were in people's
homes. I still recall the gruesome shock of seeing a 30cm high wax
sculpture of Mary the mother of Jesus with a sword sticking out of her
chest! It was so visceral that it took took my mind off what the imagery
was saying. We also sat at the back of their local Kalkara church during
a service as people came and went on their task of visiting 12 churches
during the day. It was all a bit strange but at the same time I was
also impressed by how big an event Easter is in Malta, in stark contrast
to the UK, and also how well attended it was. We were also treated to
the special Easter foods, seemingly for different days during Easter,
which I enjoyed very much. I remember my wife saying to me, 'is all
this okay?' my response was that 'it is a very different tradition and
though we have some theological differences, it it not necessarily
wrong'. I think that is how I view the rosary, it is not something
protestants typically use but it is not necessarily wrong if you find it
an aid to prayer and keeping your mind on the presence of the Lord.
I found this Youtube video on the running Christ:
https://youtu.be/tAqHB1YZp38
Steve Wilson
Kendall K. Down
May 4, 2021, 5:20:09 AM5/4/21
to
On 04/05/2021 08:33, Steve Wilson wrote:
> I
> think that is how I view the rosary, it is not something protestants
> typically use but it is not necessarily wrong if you find it an aid to
> prayer and keeping your mind on the presence of the Lord.
My objection to the rosary is not to the beads per se, but first of all
> I
> think that is how I view the rosary, it is not something protestants
> typically use but it is not necessarily wrong if you find it an aid to
> prayer and keeping your mind on the presence of the Lord.
to the concept of repeating a phrase as "prayer". Jesus exhortation to
avoid "vain repetitions as the heathen do" springs to mind. I prefer to
define prayer as "talking to God as to a friend" - and there wouldn't be
much of a friendship left if you turned up at your friend's place,
repeated "Hi, I think you're great" a dozen times and then left!
Secondly, of course, is the phrase itself. Praying to Mary is not only
according a human being a status that belongs only to God, but as
Scripture itself teaches us, is not likely to achieve much. Jesus
declined to even receive His mother on one occasion!
I suppose it is marginally better than ignoring Christ - as the public
does over here - but respect and reverence did seem to be conspicuous by
their absence!
Mike Davis
May 4, 2021, 7:20:06 AM5/4/21
to
On 04/05/2021 08:33, Steve Wilson wrote:
> On 03/05/2021 22:47, Mike Davis wrote:
>>
>> I've now completed listening to the one I pointed out. It's remarkable
>> by the honesty expressed by both participants and their openness and
>> personal friendship. But it is hard going at times!
>>
>> Barron expresses the RC pov, but I don't think anyone here will really
>> object, but there is a bit at the end, where Barron suggests the use
>> of the Rosary, and JP understands the meditational concept!
>
>>
>> I've now completed listening to the one I pointed out. It's remarkable
>> by the honesty expressed by both participants and their openness and
>> personal friendship. But it is hard going at times!
>>
>> Barron expresses the RC pov, but I don't think anyone here will really
>> object, but there is a bit at the end, where Barron suggests the use
>> of the Rosary, and JP understands the meditational concept!
>
> I've mentioned this before on this group but we have some RC friends in
> Malta and we have been to see them a number of times over the years. One
> visit in 2012 was over the Easter period so we were taken to the various
> processions, including the running Jesus, and went to several artistic
> displays of the passion (Wirja), many of which were in people's homes. I
> still recall the gruesome shock of seeing a 30cm high wax sculpture of
> Mary the mother of Jesus with a sword sticking out of her chest! It was
> so visceral that it took took my mind off what the imagery was saying.
> We also sat at the back of their local Kalkara church during a service
> as people came and went on their task of visiting 12 churches during the
> day. It was all a bit strange but at the same time I was also impressed
> by how big an event Easter is in Malta, in stark contrast to the UK, and
> also how well attended it was. We were also treated to the special
> Easter foods, seemingly for different days during Easter, which I
> enjoyed very much. I remember my wife saying to me, 'is all this okay?'
> my response was that 'it is a very different tradition and though we
> have some theological differences, it it not necessarily wrong'. I
> think that is how I view the rosary, it is not something protestants
> typically use but it is not necessarily wrong if you find it an aid to
> prayer and keeping your mind on the presence of the Lord.
>
> I found this Youtube video on the running Christ:
>
> https://youtu.be/tAqHB1YZp38
Thanks Steve, I've never seen anything like that before! But it is
> Malta and we have been to see them a number of times over the years. One
> visit in 2012 was over the Easter period so we were taken to the various
> processions, including the running Jesus, and went to several artistic
> displays of the passion (Wirja), many of which were in people's homes. I
> still recall the gruesome shock of seeing a 30cm high wax sculpture of
> Mary the mother of Jesus with a sword sticking out of her chest! It was
> so visceral that it took took my mind off what the imagery was saying.
> We also sat at the back of their local Kalkara church during a service
> as people came and went on their task of visiting 12 churches during the
> day. It was all a bit strange but at the same time I was also impressed
> by how big an event Easter is in Malta, in stark contrast to the UK, and
> also how well attended it was. We were also treated to the special
> Easter foods, seemingly for different days during Easter, which I
> enjoyed very much. I remember my wife saying to me, 'is all this okay?'
> my response was that 'it is a very different tradition and though we
> have some theological differences, it it not necessarily wrong'. I
> think that is how I view the rosary, it is not something protestants
> typically use but it is not necessarily wrong if you find it an aid to
> prayer and keeping your mind on the presence of the Lord.
>
> I found this Youtube video on the running Christ:
>
> https://youtu.be/tAqHB1YZp38
important to recall that we all have our cultural and traditional ways
of expressing our Faith, Joy, Love & Thanksgiving for what God has done,
is doing and will do for us. The important thing is not to be limited by
any one form of expression - or we'll never understand the true presence
of God! (I'm - in my nature - a very 'low' RC!!)
Alleluia!
M
Mike Davis
May 4, 2021, 7:30:06 AM5/4/21
to
On 04/05/2021 10:19, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 04/05/2021 08:33, Steve Wilson wrote:
>
>> I think that is how I view the rosary, it is not something protestants
>> typically use but it is not necessarily wrong if you find it an aid to
>> prayer and keeping your mind on the presence of the Lord.
>
> My objection to the rosary is not to the beads per se, but first of all
> to the concept of repeating a phrase as "prayer". Jesus exhortation to
> avoid "vain repetitions as the heathen do" springs to mind. I prefer to
> define prayer as "talking to God as to a friend" - and there wouldn't be
> much of a friendship left if you turned up at your friend's place,
> repeated "Hi, I think you're great" a dozen times and then left!
Really? How many times a day do you say, "I love you!" to Shirley?
> On 04/05/2021 08:33, Steve Wilson wrote:
>
>> I think that is how I view the rosary, it is not something protestants
>> typically use but it is not necessarily wrong if you find it an aid to
>> prayer and keeping your mind on the presence of the Lord.
>
> My objection to the rosary is not to the beads per se, but first of all
> to the concept of repeating a phrase as "prayer". Jesus exhortation to
> avoid "vain repetitions as the heathen do" springs to mind. I prefer to
> define prayer as "talking to God as to a friend" - and there wouldn't be
> much of a friendship left if you turned up at your friend's place,
> repeated "Hi, I think you're great" a dozen times and then left!
How many times a day do you say, "I love You!" to God?
> Secondly, of course, is the phrase itself. Praying to Mary is not only
> according a human being a status that belongs only to God, but as
> Scripture itself teaches us, is not likely to achieve much. Jesus
> declined to even receive His mother on one occasion!
I'm not going to repeat the points I've made in the past, Other than
that Mary is unique in the whole history of mankind being honoured by
God to be the instrument of mankind's salvation.
>> I found this Youtube video on the running Christ:
>> https://youtu.be/tAqHB1YZp38
>
> I suppose it is marginally better than ignoring Christ - as the public
> does over here - but respect and reverence did seem to be conspicuous by
> their absence!
the judgemental sourpusses who stand outside who are missing out.
:-)
Mike
--
Mike Davis
Rejoice in the Lord always! Alleluia!!
Steve Wilson
May 4, 2021, 8:20:06 AM5/4/21
to
On 04/05/2021 08:12, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 03/05/2021 13:53, Steve Wilson wrote:
>
>> What he was talking about is facing up to the most challenging and
>> darkest aspects of your life rather than avoiding it as the way to
>> gaining self-respect and happiness from knowing you have achieved
>> something valuable and adult.
>
> And Pinnochio comes into that?
>
Well no but he used Pinocchio's act of rescuing his Father from the
> On 03/05/2021 13:53, Steve Wilson wrote:
>
>> What he was talking about is facing up to the most challenging and
>> darkest aspects of your life rather than avoiding it as the way to
>> gaining self-respect and happiness from knowing you have achieved
>> something valuable and adult.
>
> And Pinnochio comes into that?
>
whale as an illustration that facing up to the demands of life and doing
something of value leads to something good.
>> To me belief in the *actual* existence of God is a starting point on a
>> life-long journey towards knowing him in ever greater measure. I think
>> Peterson jumps right to the end of this process and then in despair,
>> throws in the towel because he can't measure up. The only other option
>> is that he is in fact an atheist who sees God as a human construct,
>> though given his honesty I think he would say so if this was the case.
>
> I think the accepting the possibility that God exists is the necessary
> first step; if you reject that possibility right from the start then no
> amount of argument can convince. If you accept it, then you can start to
> look at the world and see the evidences for God.
>
suspicious of whether he actually believes that God exists as an
transcendent creator being. I suspect he still sees things through the
lens of archetypes and views God as the highest ideal but not an actual
self-existent being who created all things. Though I doubt he is a true
Christian at present, I do find his knowledge about the cultural Marxist
agenda to destroy the West through stirring discord via BLM, homosexual
and Transexual ideology along with cancel culture very helpful.
Steve Wilson
Kendall K. Down
May 4, 2021, 3:50:07 PM5/4/21
to
On 04/05/2021 13:12, Steve Wilson wrote:
> I do find his knowledge about the cultural Marxist
> agenda to destroy the West through stirring discord via BLM, homosexual
> and Transexual ideology along with cancel culture very helpful.
Whether it is Marxist or not I couldn't say, but I certainly believe it
> I do find his knowledge about the cultural Marxist
> agenda to destroy the West through stirring discord via BLM, homosexual
> and Transexual ideology along with cancel culture very helpful.
is of the devil.
Kendall K. Down
May 4, 2021, 3:50:08 PM5/4/21
to
On 04/05/2021 12:28, Mike Davis wrote:
> Really? How many times a day do you say, "I love you!" to Shirley?
> How many times a day do you say, "I love You!" to God?
Once or twice a day - but I assure you, that if I stood there and said
> Really? How many times a day do you say, "I love you!" to Shirley?
> How many times a day do you say, "I love You!" to God?
"I love you I love you I love you I love you" 120 times without stopping
(isn't that how many beads there are on a rosary - or is it 80?) I would
get a very queer look!
> I'm not going to repeat the points I've made in the past, Other than
> that Mary is unique in the whole history of mankind being honoured by
> God to be the instrument of mankind's salvation.
mother of Yeshua and certainly deserving of respect, but more than that?
Do we claim that Einstein's mother was "the instrument of the Theory of
Relativity"? Or what about the Kray twins? Was their mother "the
instrument of gangland crime and violence"?
> Joy often doesn't seem respectful when you are engaged in it, it is only
> the judgemental sourpusses who stand outside who are missing out.
their faces if they drop that statue at the end of one of their mad dashes.
Steve Wilson
May 4, 2021, 6:00:07 PM5/4/21
to
On 04/05/2021 10:19, Kendall K. Down wrote:
resurrection. The other processions are more sober affairs. And of
course all these processions run the risk of becoming merely a
spectacle. However it was refreshing to see Easter celebrated in such
an overtly Christian manner.
Steve Wilson
Kendall K. Down
May 5, 2021, 12:00:07 AM5/5/21
to
On 04/05/2021 22:51, Steve Wilson wrote:
> I think the running Christ is meant to symbolise joyfulness of the
> resurrection. The other processions are more sober affairs. And of
> course all these processions run the risk of becoming merely a
> spectacle. However it was refreshing to see Easter celebrated in such
> an overtly Christian manner.
The only thing is that if our religion becomes nothing more than a
> I think the running Christ is meant to symbolise joyfulness of the
> resurrection. The other processions are more sober affairs. And of
> course all these processions run the risk of becoming merely a
> spectacle. However it was refreshing to see Easter celebrated in such
> an overtly Christian manner.
cultural artefact, it can be discarded or changed as easily as any other
manifestation of popular culture, or only brought out on significant
occasions instead of being a vital part of every-day life.
When we visited Norway a few years ago it was charming to see both men
and women (but especially women) walking to church in national costume -
but the rest of the week they wore t-shirts and tattered jeans. The
reputation of Scandinavians for sexual permissiveness suggests that
their religion was similarly donned on Sundays and discarded the rest of
the week.
Steve Wilson
May 5, 2021, 3:20:05 AM5/5/21
to
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