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Management of Churches and elsewhere
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Mike Davis
Nov 13, 2021, 8:10:07 AM11/13/21
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Over the past 50 years, I have been involved in, or on the periphery of,
improving the management of various organisations. As well as my own
management career in public companies, I have subsequently practised as
an independent Management Consultant, and been a visiting lecturer at
MBS and run courses for the CIMA,
However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
(organisation-building) skills.
One of my favourite Biblical illustrations of management advice is by a
non-Jew (Jethro) to Moses in Ex 13:18-26; advice that could be usefully
followed by many Church leaders today!
However, yesterday, my attention was directed to a video of a course
given for Catholic priests and their parish helpers. (Link below)
(It reflects stuff I did at MBA level, but is so well put here.)
The basis is to ask everyone on a 'team' whether they are more:
A. 'Task orientated' or 'People Orientated'
&
B. 'Askers' or 'Tellers'
Once people have decided which way they are 'biassed' on each range, it
puts them in to one of 4 categories:
TASK ORIENTATED
_________________________________________
! ! !
! Analytical ! Driver !
ASKER !_________________!_____________________! TELLER
! ! !
! Amiable ! Expressive !
!_________________!_____________________!
PEOPLE ORIENTATED
I'm sure we've all come across these personality types before, but I
(and the attendees) found this very helpful - because one really does
need all these 'types' in a balanced team. I'm task orientated, and a
bit more of an asker than teller. which makes me a better consultant
than a line manager.
Needless to say the Pastor/priests at the session all self-identified as
being 'tellers' & mostly 'task orientated'
But the real message is that a balanced team needs all of these, and
people can then recognise where each of them sit.
Without such analysis everyone may be heading in the wrong direction;
without the driver there is no direction; without the amiable situations
can get very tense, and without the expressive the 'picture & purpose'
may get lost.
If you'd like to see the short video it's at:
https://vimeo.com/170959240
“Building Trust: Personal Histories”
Blessings
Mike
--
Mike Davis
improving the management of various organisations. As well as my own
management career in public companies, I have subsequently practised as
an independent Management Consultant, and been a visiting lecturer at
MBS and run courses for the CIMA,
However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
(organisation-building) skills.
One of my favourite Biblical illustrations of management advice is by a
non-Jew (Jethro) to Moses in Ex 13:18-26; advice that could be usefully
followed by many Church leaders today!
However, yesterday, my attention was directed to a video of a course
given for Catholic priests and their parish helpers. (Link below)
(It reflects stuff I did at MBA level, but is so well put here.)
The basis is to ask everyone on a 'team' whether they are more:
A. 'Task orientated' or 'People Orientated'
&
B. 'Askers' or 'Tellers'
Once people have decided which way they are 'biassed' on each range, it
puts them in to one of 4 categories:
TASK ORIENTATED
_________________________________________
! ! !
! Analytical ! Driver !
ASKER !_________________!_____________________! TELLER
! ! !
! Amiable ! Expressive !
!_________________!_____________________!
PEOPLE ORIENTATED
I'm sure we've all come across these personality types before, but I
(and the attendees) found this very helpful - because one really does
need all these 'types' in a balanced team. I'm task orientated, and a
bit more of an asker than teller. which makes me a better consultant
than a line manager.
Needless to say the Pastor/priests at the session all self-identified as
being 'tellers' & mostly 'task orientated'
But the real message is that a balanced team needs all of these, and
people can then recognise where each of them sit.
Without such analysis everyone may be heading in the wrong direction;
without the driver there is no direction; without the amiable situations
can get very tense, and without the expressive the 'picture & purpose'
may get lost.
If you'd like to see the short video it's at:
https://vimeo.com/170959240
“Building Trust: Personal Histories”
Blessings
Mike
--
Mike Davis
Kendall K. Down
Nov 14, 2021, 2:30:07 AM11/14/21
to
On 13/11/2021 13:03, Mike Davis wrote:
> However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
> Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
> often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
> theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
> (organisation-building) skills.
That is so true - and even worse where the church controls commercial
> However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
> Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
> often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
> theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
> (organisation-building) skills.
enterprises such as schools, hospitals or other. Stick a pastor in
charge who may be an excellent preacher, but you can guarantee that in a
short time the enterprise will be run into the ground.
The Adventist church is particularly bad at this. It runs numerous
hospitals and health-food production companies (among others). Australia
was unique in refusing to allow pastors to control the Sanitarium Health
Food Co. which is why it is so successful.
> A. 'Task orientated' or 'People Orientated'
> &
> B. 'Askers' or 'Tellers'
> If you'd like to see the short video it's at:
> https://vimeo.com/170959240
> “Building Trust: Personal Histories”
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
Mike Davis
Nov 14, 2021, 11:10:06 AM11/14/21
to
On 14/11/2021 07:26, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 13/11/2021 13:03, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
>> Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
>> often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
>> theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
>> (organisation-building) skills.
>
> That is so true - and even worse where the church controls commercial
> enterprises such as schools, hospitals or other. Stick a pastor in
> charge who may be an excellent preacher, but you can guarantee that in a
> short time the enterprise will be run into the ground.
>
> The Adventist church is particularly bad at this. It runs numerous
> hospitals and health-food production companies (among others). Australia
> was unique in refusing to allow pastors to control the Sanitarium Health
> Food Co. which is why it is so successful.
>
>> A. 'Task orientated' or 'People Orientated'
>> &
>> B. 'Askers' or 'Tellers'
>
> A. is self-explanatory, but I'm not sure what B. means.
Are you the sort of person who tends to ask questions of other to find
> On 13/11/2021 13:03, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
>> Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
>> often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
>> theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
>> (organisation-building) skills.
>
> That is so true - and even worse where the church controls commercial
> enterprises such as schools, hospitals or other. Stick a pastor in
> charge who may be an excellent preacher, but you can guarantee that in a
> short time the enterprise will be run into the ground.
>
> The Adventist church is particularly bad at this. It runs numerous
> hospitals and health-food production companies (among others). Australia
> was unique in refusing to allow pastors to control the Sanitarium Health
> Food Co. which is why it is so successful.
>
>> A. 'Task orientated' or 'People Orientated'
>> &
>> B. 'Askers' or 'Tellers'
>
> A. is self-explanatory, but I'm not sure what B. means.
out, or are you happier 'telling people' your views and stories.
>
>> If you'd like to see the short video it's at:
>> https://vimeo.com/170959240
>> “Building Trust: Personal Histories”
>
> I did try to watch it but you have to "Log in" to view it, so couldn't.
Yes, I was a bit concerned about that, but it seemed harmless(!!)
>> If you'd like to see the short video it's at:
>> https://vimeo.com/170959240
>> “Building Trust: Personal Histories”
>
> I did try to watch it but you have to "Log in" to view it, so couldn't.
Jason
Nov 14, 2021, 2:52:49 PM11/14/21
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2021 07:26:40 +0000, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 13/11/2021 13:03, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
>> Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
>> often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
>> theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
>> (organisation-building) skills.
>
> That is so true - and even worse where the church controls commercial
> enterprises such as schools, hospitals or other. Stick a pastor in
> charge who may be an excellent preacher, but you can guarantee that in a
> short time the enterprise will be run into the ground.
Yes, I can imagine this to be true, even though I have no first-hand
> On 13/11/2021 13:03, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> However during all this time, I have been concerned at weaknesses in
>> Church Management where, often, those leading the denominations are
>> often (mostly?) given leadership positions on the basis of their
>> theology and preaching abilities, rather than their management
>> (organisation-building) skills.
>
> That is so true - and even worse where the church controls commercial
> enterprises such as schools, hospitals or other. Stick a pastor in
> charge who may be an excellent preacher, but you can guarantee that in a
> short time the enterprise will be run into the ground.
experience of it. It is the same in engineering however, where some
excellent engineers have floundered when 'promoted' into a team
leadership role.
However, I've also seen problems with alternative approaches, such as a
situation I know on the railways where a 'professional manager' from an
unrelated industry was brought in with no real interest, experience, or
understanding of railways and subsequently caused a complete mess of
things. I agree that managerial skills are completely different to
'technical' ones, but that still doesn't mean that they are freely
interchangable.
>> A. 'Task orientated' or 'People Orientated'
>> &
>> B. 'Askers' or 'Tellers'
>
> A. is self-explanatory, but I'm not sure what B. means.
something (like the chairman of a committee, building a consensus) and
there are those who 'tell' people to do something, like an officer in the
army.
>> If you'd like to see the short video it's at:
>> https://vimeo.com/170959240 “Building Trust: Personal Histories”
>
> I did try to watch it but you have to "Log in" to view it, so couldn't.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 14, 2021, 3:20:07 PM11/14/21
to
On 14/11/2021 16:04, Mike Davis wrote:
> Are you the sort of person who tends to ask questions of other to find
> out, or are you happier 'telling people' your views and stories.
Thanks.
> Are you the sort of person who tends to ask questions of other to find
> out, or are you happier 'telling people' your views and stories.
> Yes, I was a bit concerned about that, but it seemed harmless(!!)
Kendall K. Down
Nov 14, 2021, 3:30:07 PM11/14/21
to
On 14/11/2021 16:13, Jason wrote:
> Yes, I can imagine this to be true, even though I have no first-hand
> experience of it. It is the same in engineering however, where some
> excellent engineers have floundered when 'promoted' into a team
> leadership role.
What's that old saying about people being promoted to one level above
> Yes, I can imagine this to be true, even though I have no first-hand
> experience of it. It is the same in engineering however, where some
> excellent engineers have floundered when 'promoted' into a team
> leadership role.
their competency?
> However, I've also seen problems with alternative approaches, such as a
> situation I know on the railways where a 'professional manager' from an
> unrelated industry was brought in with no real interest, experience, or
> understanding of railways and subsequently caused a complete mess of
> things. I agree that managerial skills are completely different to
> 'technical' ones, but that still doesn't mean that they are freely
> interchangable.
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