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Kendall K. Down

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Jul 12, 2022, 1:49:41 AMJul 12
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In Book XVI of The City of God, St Augustine endeavours to deal with
some of the objections raised against the Biblical account of man's
origin. For example, apparently some questioned whether animals could
have spread from Noah's ark onto remote islands.

"There is a question raised about all those kinds of beasts which are
not domesticated, nor are produced like frogs from the earth, but are
propagated by male and female parents, such as wolves and animals of
that kind; and it is asked how they could be found in the islands after
the deluge."

His solution is that either they were taken there by humans or they were
produced out of the earth "as at their first creation". Mike will be
happy to know that it is all an analogy:

"This makes it more evident that all kinds of animals were preserved in
the ark, not so much for the sake of renewing the stock, as of
prefiguring the various nations which were to be saved in the church."

The trouble is, of course, that Augustine is relying on "science" for
many of his more ridiculous statements and arguments, rather like modern
Christians who implicitly believe whatever nonsense the scientists
assert but doubt and cavil over what God says.

In chapter 9 he turns to the question of the Antipodes (which is to say,
"opposed feet"!)

"But as to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on
the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets to us,
men who walk with their feet opposite ours, that is on no ground
credible. And, indeed, it is not affirmed that this has been learned by
historical knowledge, but by scientific conjecture, on the ground that
the earth is suspended within the concavity of the sky, and that it has
as much room on the one side of it as on the other: hence they say that
the part which is beneath must also be inhabited. But they do not remark
that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the
world is of a round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the
other side of the earth is bare of water; nor even, though it be bare,
does it immediately follow that it is peopled."

So there we have it: I'm nothing but a fable.

Shucks.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down (Australian)





Mike Davis

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Jul 12, 2022, 7:29:41 AMJul 12
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Some people look for any excuse to put their feet on the ceiling!
Just take your shoes off first, Kendall!

On a serious note, I must congratulate you on your determination to read
the City of God, I did try many years ago, but gave up! Enjoy it! But
please don't start assuming it's all Catholic Doctrine!

Btw, Deut 33:17, Job 28:24, Pro 17:24, Isa 40:28 / 41:9 /45:22 Acts
14:37 (and others), all clearly demonstrate that the world is not
spherical but has ends.

So Kendall, which way does the Bible tell us to get to Australia?

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Jul 12, 2022, 2:49:44 PMJul 12
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On 12/07/2022 12:22, Mike Davis wrote:

> Some people look for any excuse to put their feet on the ceiling!
> Just take your shoes off first, Kendall!

He he.

> On a serious note, I must congratulate you on your determination to read
> the City of God, I did try many years ago, but gave up! Enjoy it! But
> please don't start assuming it's all Catholic Doctrine!

It's certainly not *modern* Catholic doctrine, but I believe it was
Catholic doctrine back in his day. (That's not to say that every
argument he adduces is or was Catholic doctrine, just the conclusions he
defends.)

Martin Luther had a lot of time for Augustine, mainly because he was so
different to the Catholicism of the 1500s. Despite the boast that "Rome
never changes", Rome has changed a lot over the years and only rarely
for the better.

> Btw, Deut 33:17, Job 28:24, Pro 17:24, Isa 40:28 / 41:9 /45:22 Acts
> 14:37 (and others), all clearly demonstrate that the world is not
> spherical but has ends.

Even today, with sure and certain knowledge of the shape of the earth,
people continue to speak of "the ends of the earth", simply meaning the
remotest part from where the speaker is located. Neither modern people
who use the phrase nor Bible writers were denying the spherical shape of
the earth.

> So Kendall, which way does the Bible tell us to get to Australia?

Probably by going to the ends of the earth.

Kendall K. Down

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Jul 12, 2022, 2:49:45 PMJul 12
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On 12/07/2022 12:22, Mike Davis wrote:

> On a serious note, I must congratulate you on your determination to read
> the City of God, I did try many years ago, but gave up! Enjoy it!

It just takes discipline. I try and read three chapters per day,
frequently skip a day, then take it up again. Call it my version of a
hair shirt ...

Mike Davis

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Jul 12, 2022, 5:29:46 PMJul 12
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On 12/07/2022 19:45, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 12/07/2022 12:22, Mike Davis wrote:

>> But please don't start assuming it's all Catholic Doctrine!
>
> It's certainly not *modern* Catholic doctrine, but I believe it was
> Catholic doctrine back in his day. (That's not to say that every
> argument he adduces is or was Catholic doctrine, just the conclusions he
> defends.)

Augustine was, as you know, Bishop of Hippo but AFAIK had no direct
influence over the leadership of the time. (I was intrigued by the Wiki
entry:
"Many Protestants, especially Calvinists and Lutherans, consider him one
of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his
teachings on salvation and divine grace.[34][35][36] Protestant
Reformers generally, and Martin Luther in particular, held Augustine in
pre-eminence among early Church Fathers. Luther was, from 1505 to 1521,
a member of the Order of the Augustinian Eremites. "
>
> Martin Luther had a lot of time for Augustine, mainly because he was so
> different to the Catholicism of the 1500s. Despite the boast that "Rome
> never changes", Rome has changed a lot over the years and only rarely
> for the better.

As I've said on many occasions, "I wouldn't be an RC today, were it not
for the Second Vatican Council." I don't know how much you've read of
those documents - but they are a great step forwards (especially in
Ecumenism.)

>> Btw, Deut 33:17, Job 28:24, Pro 17:24, Isa 40:28 / 41:9 /45:22 Acts
>> 14:37 (and others), all clearly demonstrate that the world is not
>> spherical but has ends.
>
> Even today, with sure and certain knowledge of the shape of the earth,
> people continue to speak of "the ends of the earth", simply meaning the
> remotest part from where the speaker is located. Neither modern people
> who use the phrase nor Bible writers were denying the spherical shape of
> the earth.

Really? Can you refer me to anything in the OT that suggests that the
world is spherical? (Seriously...)

>> So Kendall, which way does the Bible tell us to get to Australia?
>
> Probably by going to the ends of the earth.

;-)

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Jul 12, 2022, 11:19:43 PMJul 12
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On 12/07/2022 22:27, Mike Davis wrote:

> Augustine was, as you know, Bishop of Hippo but AFAIK had no direct
> influence over the leadership of the time.

No, I don't believe he did, but he did have influence over the thought
of the time (and subsequent times).

> As I've said on many occasions, "I wouldn't be an RC today, were it not
> for the Second Vatican Council." I don't know how much you've read of
> those documents - but they are a great step forwards (especially in
> Ecumenism.)

I don't believe I have read any of them - for much the same reasons that
I doubt you have read any of the proceedings of the General Conference
of Baptists. What goes on in a church not my own is, strictly speaking,
irrelevant to me.

> Really? Can you refer me to anything in the OT that suggests that the
> world is spherical? (Seriously...)

The nearest is Isaiah 40:22 - if Biblical Hebrew has a word for "sphere"
I am not aware of it. More to the point is that whatever mistaken ideas
Biblical authors may have had about the shape of the earth, they have
not been explicitly stated in inspired Scripture - unlike, for example,
the apocryphal Book of Enoch, which goes into great detail about what
you will find at the edges of the earth! (Gates through which the winds
blow.)

Madhu

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Jul 13, 2022, 12:29:45 AMJul 13
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* Mike Davis <jj679lFfld5U1 @mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Tue, 12 Jul 2022 22:27:16 +0100:
Isiah 40:22 has an undisputable "circle of the earth"

I agree with Ken that The "ends of the earth" is not inconsistent with a
spherical topography for the whole earth.

that and "the four corners of the land"" follow from man's natural grasp
of the 4 cardinal directions, and literally the land under consideration
is flat.

the inference that "the bible stipulates that the earth is flat" is not
tenable.


Kendall K. Down

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Jul 13, 2022, 3:19:46 PMJul 13
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On 13/07/2022 05:23, Madhu wrote:

> that and "the four corners of the land"" follow from man's natural grasp
> of the 4 cardinal directions, and literally the land under consideration
> is flat.

The usual quote is from Revelation, where I am informed that the Greek
word translated as "corners" can also mean "quarters" - and angels can
stand on the four quarters of a sphere as easily as on a cube.

steve hague

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Jul 14, 2022, 1:09:44 AMJul 14
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When I saw that header, I thought I must have accidentally selected my
cricket ng.
Steve Hague



Timreason

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Jul 14, 2022, 3:19:43 AMJul 14
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I remember many times hearing in the news, "England's dramatic batting
collapse!"

Maybe we only remember the bad times...

Tim.





Mike Davis

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Jul 14, 2022, 8:59:45 AMJul 14
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On 13/07/2022 04:12, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 12/07/2022 22:27, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> Augustine was, as you know, Bishop of Hippo but AFAIK had no direct
>> influence over the leadership of the time.
>
> No, I don't believe he did, but he did have influence over the thought
> of the time (and subsequent times).
>
>> As I've said on many occasions, "I wouldn't be an RC today, were it
>> not for the Second Vatican Council." I don't know how much you've read
>> of those documents - but they are a great step forwards (especially in
>> Ecumenism.)
>
> I don't believe I have read any of them - for much the same reasons that
> I doubt you have read any of the proceedings of the General Conference
> of Baptists. What goes on in a church not my own is, strictly speaking,
> irrelevant to me.

Since there is only ONE Christian Church - HIS, what goes on in each
part concerns us all. No part is without sin, no part is without
ignorance, the question is are we promoting the Kingdom in love?

And is it growing as we were told to spread the Good News?
Sadly there are many parts that are shrinking - and for that we are all
responsible.

>> Really? Can you refer me to anything in the OT that suggests that the
>> world is spherical? (Seriously...)
>
> The nearest is Isaiah 40:22 - if Biblical Hebrew has a word for "sphere"
> I am not aware of it. More to the point is that whatever mistaken ideas
> Biblical authors may have had about the shape of the earth, they have
> not been explicitly stated in inspired Scripture - unlike, for example,
> the apocryphal Book of Enoch, which goes into great detail about what
> you will find at the edges of the earth! (Gates through which the winds
> blow.)

Thanks!

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Mike Davis

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Jul 14, 2022, 8:59:46 AMJul 14
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On 13/07/2022 05:23, Madhu wrote:
Yes, thanks, I agree!

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Mike Davis

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Jul 14, 2022, 8:59:47 AMJul 14
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<grins> I'll remember that!!

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Jul 14, 2022, 3:19:43 PMJul 14
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On 14/07/2022 06:07, steve hague wrote:

> When I saw that header, I thought I must have accidentally selected my
> cricket ng.

He he.

Kendall K. Down

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Jul 14, 2022, 3:19:43 PMJul 14
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On 14/07/2022 13:54, Mike Davis wrote:

>> I don't believe I have read any of them - for much the same reasons
>> that I doubt you have read any of the proceedings of the General
>> Conference of Baptists. What goes on in a church not my own is,
>> strictly speaking, irrelevant to me.

> Since there is only ONE Christian Church - HIS, what goes on in each
> part concerns us all.  No part is without sin, no part is without
> ignorance, the question is are we promoting the Kingdom in love?

Your statements are true but irrelevant - as I will demonstrate by
asking straight out: Have you read any of the proceedings of the General
Conference of Baptists?

> And is it growing as we were told to spread the Good News?
> Sadly there are many parts that are shrinking - and for that we are all
> responsible.

Again, your remarks are true but not strictly relevant.

Mike Davis

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Jul 15, 2022, 6:49:44 AMJul 15
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On 14/07/2022 20:17, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 14/07/2022 13:54, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>>> I don't believe I have read any of them - for much the same reasons
>>> that I doubt you have read any of the proceedings of the General
>>> Conference of Baptists. What goes on in a church not my own is,
>>> strictly speaking, irrelevant to me.
>
>> Since there is only ONE Christian Church - HIS, what goes on in each
>> part concerns us all.  No part is without sin, no part is without
>> ignorance, the question is are we promoting the Kingdom in love?
>
> Your statements are true but irrelevant - as I will demonstrate by
> asking straight out: Have you read any of the proceedings of the General
> Conference of Baptists?

No, but I am familiar with some CoE General Assembly minutes and some
Methodist Synods, but I don't generally 'read them'. (I was a member of
the URC NW Synod for 5 years, and have represented GMCT at CTE Assemblies.)

>> And is it growing as we were told to spread the Good News?
>> Sadly there are many parts that are shrinking - and for that we are
>> all responsible.
>
> Again, your remarks are true but not strictly relevant.

They are desperately relevant to those who may be damned because we
Christians have failed to share the Good News in an active and loving way.

How fast is your Church growing?

Blessings

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Jul 15, 2022, 3:59:44 PMJul 15
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On 15/07/2022 11:48, Mike Davis wrote:

> No, but I am familiar with some CoE General Assembly minutes and some
> Methodist Synods, but I don't generally 'read them'.

In the same way I am aware of VAT2 and some of the pronouncements of
recent times.

> They are desperately relevant to those who may be damned because we
> Christians have failed to share the Good News in an active and loving way.

Absolutely true - but irrelevant to the question of whether you or I
have read the proceedings of each other's church councils and synods.

> How fast is your Church growing?

Assuming you are referring to the SDA church, you may be interested in
glancing over this:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/seventh-day-adventists-have-lowest-growth-in-16-years.html

Of course the figures may be different for any particular country. In
the UK white membership has decreased almost to the point of extinction
(at least in England), but there is healthy growth among immigrant
communities.

steve hague

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Jul 16, 2022, 1:19:43 AMJul 16
to
Lies, damn lies and statistics. It makes me wonder how these things are
correlated, certainly covid had an impact. Before the first lockdown, we
had in excess of 200 people getting together on most Sunday mornings.
There were more than that joining us via Zoom and live streaming in
subsequent weeks. When the restrictions were lifted, I was on the door
welcoming people, and for health and safety reasons the person tasked
with that office has to keep a record of the numbers coming in. I
counted forty people I knew personally, and nearly twice as many who I
didn't. Speaking to local church leaders I found a common experience was
that people who they considered part of the fittings and fixtures didn't
return after lockdown but new people were turning up on a regular basis.
The Church is being shaken. By Church, I mean all denominations.
Steve Hague



Kendall K. Down

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Jul 16, 2022, 3:29:46 PMJul 16
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On 16/07/2022 06:14, steve hague wrote:

> Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Certainly I would not want to claim those figures as absolute truth.
However "Christian Post" is not linked to the SDA church (so far as I
know), which is why I pointed to that URL.

> It makes me wonder how these things are
> correlated, certainly covid had an impact. Before the first lockdown, we
> had in excess of 200 people getting together on most Sunday mornings.
> There were more than that joining us via Zoom and live streaming in
> subsequent weeks. When the restrictions were lifted, I was on the door
> welcoming people, and for health and safety reasons the person tasked
> with that office has to keep a record of the numbers coming in. I
> counted forty people I knew personally, and nearly twice as many who I
> didn't. Speaking to local church leaders I found a common experience was
> that people who they considered part of the fittings and fixtures didn't
> return after lockdown but new people were turning up on a regular basis.

Very interesting. Has your pastor (or your eldership team or whoever has
the responsibility) contacted these old faithfuls to try and find out
*why* they are not returning? We praise God for the new people, but I
would have thought it a part of pastoral care to at least try to contact
the old members.

> The Church is being shaken. By Church, I mean all denominations.

Yes, I would not be at all surprised. SDA eschatology anticipates a
"Time of Shaking" when many we had believed to be pillars of the church,
including leaders, would be shaken out. Of course the SDAs applied that
to themselves, but I see no reason why it should not be a general
Christian phenomenon.

We saw it in the time of Noah, when members of his family died shortly
before the Flood and, quite probably, others ceased to support him. His
father died 8 years before the Flood, Methuselah in the year of the
Flood (or was it the other way round). There are difficult times ahead
for God's people and those whose faith is formal will be shaken out,
those whose age means that the difficult times would be too much to bear
will be allowed to rest.

So if you're still alive, it is time to be worried - and to make sure
that your faith in God is rock solid.

Stuart

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Jul 16, 2022, 5:39:50 PMJul 16
to
In article <tasgnb$34qf5$1...@dont-email.me>,
Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Assuming you are referring to the SDA church, you may be interested in
> glancing over this:

> https://www.christianpost.com/news/seventh-day-adventists-have-lowest-growth-in-16-years.html

> Of course the figures may be different for any particular country. In
> the UK white membership has decreased almost to the point of extinction
> (at least in England), but there is healthy growth among immigrant
> communities.

I have been told the Ukraine is seeing a revival of Christianity and the
fastest growing church is the SDA.

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/


Kendall K. Down

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Jul 16, 2022, 9:49:48 PMJul 16
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On 16/07/2022 21:38, Stuart wrote:

> I have been told the Ukraine is seeing a revival of Christianity and the
> fastest growing church is the SDA.

Emergencies and crises often see people turning to God. I believe the
Second World War saw a similar effect in Britain.

Oddly, there was a Ukrainian couple in church this morning - Vlad and
Albina - been here month after being bombed out of their home.

steve hague

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Jul 17, 2022, 3:09:50 AMJul 17
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On 16/07/2022 20:26, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 16/07/2022 06:14, steve hague wrote:
>
>> Lies, damn lies and statistics.
>
> Certainly I would not want to claim those figures as absolute truth.
> However "Christian Post" is not linked to the SDA church (so far as I
> know), which is why I pointed to that URL.
>
>> It makes me wonder how these things are correlated, certainly covid
>> had an impact. Before the first lockdown, we had in excess of 200
>> people getting together on most Sunday mornings. There were more than
>> that joining us via Zoom and live streaming in subsequent weeks. When
>> the restrictions were lifted, I was on the door welcoming people, and
>> for health and safety reasons the person tasked with that office has
>> to keep a record of the numbers coming in. I counted forty people I
>> knew personally, and nearly twice as many who I didn't. Speaking to
>> local church leaders I found a common experience was that people who
>> they considered part of the fittings and fixtures didn't return after
>> lockdown but new people were turning up on a regular basis.
>
> Very interesting. Has your pastor (or your eldership team or whoever has
> the responsibility) contacted these old faithfuls to try and find out
> *why* they are not returning? We praise God for the new people, but I
> would have thought it a part of pastoral care to at least try to contact
> the old members.

Yes. Some are still joining us on Zoom, others have gone to a "plant"
started up from our church a few months before covid struck, and yet
others to a small group which meets on Saturday mornings. Some we
haven't been able to get in touch with.
Steve




Kendall K. Down

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Jul 17, 2022, 3:49:49 AMJul 17
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On 17/07/2022 08:07, steve hague wrote:

> Yes. Some are still joining us on Zoom, others have gone to a "plant"
> started up from our church a few months before covid struck, and yet
> others to a small group which meets on Saturday mornings. Some we
> haven't been able to get in touch with.

So things aren't quite as dire as your initial post implied, which I am
glad to hear.
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