Narrowboat lifespans
CHRIS PILGRAM
When I bought my secondhand (15 year old Hancock and Lane) narrowboat (6mm
bottom and sides, 3mm cabin), I asked the boatyard how long it might last.
The answer was 'at least ten years'. I know this is a 'how long is a piece
of string question', but does anyone have any views on lifespans for all
steel narrowboats ?
Regards,
Chris Pilgram.
Robert Laws GSES95
> Chris Pilgram.
My boat, `St.Kilda', is built of 1/4" (6.3mm) steel (to a Handcock and Lane
design) and is 13 years old. The Ultrasonic hull survey at age 11
showed hull thicknesses ranging from 6.0mm to 6.3mm with little pitting
which suggests that the hull has barely started to thin. Extrapolating
at 0.03mm/year suggests an expected hull life of 6/0.03 = 200 years!
St.Kilda has always had anodes and hersides and bottom have been regularly
blacked. Most of her life has been on Rivers and the Middle Level.
Robert
_________________________________________________________________________
NB St.Kilda, Cambridge, http://www.geocities.com/Paris/2802/index_ng.html
David E. Hockin
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:55:09 -0500 CHRIS PILGRAM
<chrisp...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> When I bought my
secondhand (15 year old Hancock and Lane) narrowboat (6mm
> bottom and sides, 3mm cabin), I asked the boatyard how long it might last.
> The answer was 'at least ten years'. I know this is a 'how long is a piece
> of string question', but does anyone have any views on lifespans for all
> steel narrowboats ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris Pilgram.
Depends on a lot of things! Most important - far more than
plate thickness, is the water that the boat will live in
and the number (if any) of anodes. The water where we moor,
is VERY VERY chalky, and the hull plates over with hard
lime, which protects it. Whereas boats over near
Honeystreet, rot like old cheese, since there is a lot of
runoff from the fields, and it carries a high level of
nitrates, so the boats are sitting in quite an acid
solution!
Hailey Wood is only 3mm/3mm/3mm - all over! And the pitting
from previous ownership is still acceptable minor - and
they weren't too free with the anodes! We nowadays have
four, and the advance of corrosion seems to be virtually
halted, if you look under the lime! Whatever Sam Springer
used 22 years ago, it was darned hard metal - its hell to
try and drill holes in - there seems to be a hard outer
case to both side of the steel - blunts drills like
nobody's business. The thin plates may be wavy, but they
are of very good stuff, and the surveyor LOVES belting them
with his little hammer, to demonstrate their toughness and
resilience. Its NOT testing - you should see the broad grin
on his face as he does it! ( He has an ultrasonic tester
for the "real" job). He's also had a hard job scraping the
red oxide mill coating from the steel - its amazingly
tough, too.
So, it does seem to be a matter of luck whether any
particular secondhand boat will last or not.
Dave. Hailey Wood, Dundas.
----------------------
David E. Hockin G4UGT
Dave....@bristol.ac.uk
tel : 0117-928-8499
url http://ssa.bris.ac.uk/~sadeh/hockin.htm
Glen Peckett
On 1 Apr 1998 13:23:39 -0000, Dave....@bristol.ac.uk (David E.
Hockin) wrote:
>
>Hailey Wood is only 3mm/3mm/3mm - all over! And the pitting
>from previous ownership is still acceptable minor - and
>they weren't too free with the anodes! We nowadays have
>four, and the advance of corrosion seems to be virtually
>halted, if you look under the lime! Whatever Sam Springer
>used 22 years ago, it was darned hard metal - its hell to
>try and drill holes in - there seems to be a hard outer
>case to both side of the steel - blunts drills like
>nobody's business. The thin plates may be wavy, but they
>are of very good stuff, and the surveyor LOVES belting them
>with his little hammer, to demonstrate their toughness and
>resilience. Its NOT testing - you should see the broad grin
>on his face as he does it! ( He has an ultrasonic tester
>for the "real" job). He's also had a hard job scraping the
>red oxide mill coating from the steel - its amazingly
>tough, too.
Badger's a bit thicker than that - but is now 30 years old and still
going strong, with little corrosion at the last full survey.
Springer Gasometers rule OK!
Michael J Wooding
In article <199804010755_...@compuserve.com>, CHRIS PILGRAM
<chrisp...@compuserve.com> writes
>I know this is a 'how long is a piece
>of string question', but does anyone have any views on lifespans for all
>steel narrowboats ?
Hi Chris,
I know of a 25 year old Springer a#that was dry-docked last year for the
first time ever and showed very little wear/corosion. I also know of a
14 year old Springer that showed at worst 20% wear/corrosion.
Generally, I would surmise that a modern steel nb well maintained should
outlive any of us.
Mike
--
Michael J Wooding - sans bateaux
NABO Webmaster http://www.clearlight.com/~nabo
email: na...@clearlight.com
The Cutpics site: http://www.vhfcomm.co.uk/cutpics.htm
The Springer Owners Club site: http://www.vhfcomm.co.uk/springer.htm
Phil Rushton
----------
> From: Michael J Wooding <mich...@g6iqm.demon.co.uk>
> To: can...@blacksheep.org
> Subject: Re: Narrowboat lifespans
> Date: 01 April 1998 20:38
>
> In article <199804010755_...@compuserve.com>, CHRIS PILGRAM
> <chrisp...@compuserve.com> writes
> >I know this is a 'how long is a piece
> >of string question', but does anyone have any views on lifespans for all
> >steel narrowboats ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
Before buying my current nb last year I looked at a
14 year old Mike Haywood cruiser with 6mm vee bottom.
During an "out of water" inspection we managed to put
a hole in the bottom with a scraper - needless to say I
didn't buy that one but settled for a 17 year old Teddesley
with only minimal wear underneath. The former had never
had any anodes fitted whilst the latter had 4 (it now has 8).
Phil
Michael B Holt
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:56:11 +0100 "Phil Rushton" writes:
>Before buying my current nb last year I looked at a
>14 year old Mike Haywood cruiser with 6mm vee bottom.
How sharp is the vee? What are the dimensions of this cruiser?
>During an "out of water" inspection we managed to put
>a hole in the bottom with a scraper - needless to say I
>didn't buy that one but settled for a 17 year old Teddesley
>with only minimal wear underneath. The former had never
>had any anodes fitted whilst the latter had 4 (it now has 8).
This happens on new ones, too.
There's a famous story about a reporter who was visiting Fore River (I
think) for the launch of one of the WW1-era O-class submarines. He was
standing at the very stern of the submarine, waiting for the ceremony to
start. He noted idly that an area of the steel seemed "funny." So he
looked around on the ground until he found a bit of stiff wire, and
started poking at the spot.
He broke through the hull, into the interior of the boat.
Horrified, he went immediately to the launch foreman, to tell him of the
problem.
"Oh, it's all right, " the foreman told him, smiling, "It won't show once
we paint the hull."
(I probably shouldn't have told yet another U.S. Navy story, should I?)
Michael the Contrite
--
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Martin
Michael J Wooding wrote:
> Generally, I would surmise that a modern steel nb well maintained should
> outlive any of us.
Is it really that dangerous on the canals nowadays ;-)
All this stuff about people dropping canal sleepers on boats and casting one
adrift in the middle of night, people falling in right left and centre, and
sir roses of the river; the worry must bring on early heart disease, even if
you don't sustain a fatal injury.
Serious Question to nb owners: is your insurance constantly increasing and
how often do you make a claim and does your boat hve to be surveyed every
year, if and when it gets old?
Robert Laws GSES95
> Michael J Wooding wrote:
> Serious Question to nb owners: is your insurance constantly increasing and
> how often do you make a claim and does your boat hve to be surveyed every
> year, if and when it gets old?
I'm required by my insurers to have a hull survey every four years.
Boat is 13 years old. I've not claimed yet.
Robert
Michael J Wooding
In article <1998040212...@nutmeg.scr.slb.com>, Robert Laws
GSES95 <gse...@cambridge.scr.slb.com> writes
>I'm required by my insurers to have a hull survey every four years.
>Boat is 13 years old. I've not claimed yet.
Hi Robert,
From the discussion I had with the surveyor who 'did' Wa'Na'Nee'Che for
us, it appears that not all insurance companies are the same. The
company we use (through Euromarine Insurance Services) does not require
a mandatory survey on an inland waterway craft until it is 20 years old
or more. However, some companies require them at 15 years, and
obviously yours at less.
Martin
Michael J Wooding wrote:
> Robert Laws writes
> >I'm required by my insurers to have a hull survey every four years.
> >Boat is 13 years old. I've not claimed yet.
>
> The company we use (through Euromarine Insurance Services) does not
> require a mandatory survey on an inland waterway craft until it is 20
> years old
> or more. However, some companies require them at 15 years, and
> obviously yours at less.
Why don't you all get together form a club and negotiate an insurance deal
for members? or maybe some of you have already?
I asked because we asked the company, in UK, where we have our 26' sailing
boat insured, how much to insure our 1978 Wayfarer dinghy, they asked when
was it last surveyed, the idea of having a dinghy surveyed is laughable, it
would probly cost more than it is worth. They haven't asked us to have our
1973 26' boat surveyed. I wondered what the policy was in UK.
Martin
Phil Rushton
----------
> From: Michael B Holt <michae...@juno.com>
> To: can...@blacksheep.org
> Subject: Holes in steel hull (was: Narrowboat lifespans)
> Date: 02 April 1998 03:34
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:56:11 +0100 "Phil Rushton" writes:
> >Before buying my current nb last year I looked at a
> >14 year old Mike Haywood cruiser with 6mm vee bottom.
>
> How sharp is the vee? What are the dimensions of this cruiser?
> ------------------------------- --------------------
--------------- --
>>>A SHALLOW VEE HULL SIMILAR TO A SPRINGER
>>>>35 FEET
Phil
Jeff Dennison
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 20:45:14 +0200, you wrote:
> Why don't you all get together form a club and negotiate an insurance deal
>for members? or maybe some of you have already?
That's an interesing idea. We're just about to form the Ansty
Cruising Club.
My boat is insured via Michael Stimpson and he is requiring a BSC part
1 & 2 every 4 years this doesn't seem only to apply to Coronation
although on an age basis (102 years on 3 July 1998) I could perhaps
see why. I get the impression that this particular company maybe
requiring all boats to have a hull inspection every 4 years. I would
be interested in other folks views/experiences. Is my impression
correct? Is this a natural spin off from the BSC?
Regards
Jeff
-
Songs of the Waterways - Telephone 01203 615582 Mobile 0976 167574
The compact disc of "They're Coming Back to the Water" is now available.
Full details at http://www.pipemedia.net/users/jeffd/index.htm
A hangover is just the Wrath of Grapes
Robert Laws GSES95
> > Robert Laws writes
> > >I'm required by my insurers to have a hull survey every four years.
>
> Martin responded:
> Why don't you all get together form a club and negotiate an insurance deal
> for members? or maybe some of you have already?
Robert:
If you mean the boaters on the Cam, then my guess is that all but a few
of them are uninsured anyway. Also we aren't a very organised lot
here and I can't really see it working. We don't even buy our diesel
in bulk by tanker at 14p/litre but go individually to Upware and pay
25p.
It's a good idea though, thanks.
Robert (note new slimline signature)
Glen Peckett
On 2 Apr 1998 20:51:23 -0000, jeff-f...@pipemedia.co.uk (Jeff
Dennison) wrote:
y boat is insured via Michael Stimpson and he is requiring a BSC part
>1 & 2 every 4 years this doesn't seem only to apply to Coronation
>although on an age basis (102 years on 3 July 1998) I could perhaps
>see why. I get the impression that this particular company maybe
>requiring all boats to have a hull inspection every 4 years. I would
>be interested in other folks views/experiences. Is my impression
>correct? Is this a natural spin off from the BSC?
When I insured Badger with Stimmo it was basically over 20 years old
you need a BSC Part 2 Survey, under 20 years you don't.
Apparently pre BSC and CofC many insurers would insist on a full
survey. With the full CofC that was acceptable. BW took the structural
bits out, and everyone was up-in-arms, hence the creation of the 2
part BSC. It's certainly cheaper than a structural survey used to be.
Dave Green
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Dennison <jeff-f...@pipemedia.co.uk>
To: can...@blacksheep.org <can...@blacksheep.org>
Date: 02 April 1998 21:52
Subject: Re: Insurance.
>My boat is insured via Michael Stimpson and he is requiring a BSC part
>1 & 2 every 4 years this doesn't seem only to apply to Coronation
>although on an age basis (102 years on 3 July 1998) I could perhaps
>see why. I get the impression that this particular company maybe
>requiring all boats to have a hull inspection every 4 years. I would
>be interested in other folks views/experiences. Is my impression
>correct? Is this a natural spin off from the BSC?
We are also insured by Michael. He requires parts 1 and 2 every four years
once the boat reaches a certain ago. I think it is either 10 or 15 years.
Dave Green
nb Willy No-Name
Martin
Dave Green wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Dennison <jeff-f...@pipemedia.co.uk>
> To: can...@blacksheep.org <can...@blacksheep.org>
> Date: 02 April 1998 21:52
> Subject: Re: Insurance.
>
> >My boat is insured via Michael Stimpson and he is requiring a BSC part
> >1 & 2 every 4 years this doesn't seem only to apply to Coronation
> >although on an age basis (102 years on 3 July 1998) I could perhaps
> >see why. I get the impression that this particular company maybe
> >requiring all boats to have a hull inspection every 4 years. I would
> >be interested in other folks views/experiences. Is my impression
> >correct? Is this a natural spin off from the BSC?
I think it's a reflection of several things.
the enormous losses LLoyds made a few years ago.
the decline in commercial maritine buisness.
the increase of stupid accidents with boats on the sea and the increase in the
average age of boats insured.
The result is that everybody with a boat is penalised.
It seems that you have better chance of being paid in the event of a claim if
insurer insists on a regular survey.
Martin
John Wyrill
>
>My boat is insured via Michael Stimpson and he is requiring a BSC part
>1 & 2 every 4 years this doesn't seem only to apply to Coronation
>although on an age basis (102 years on 3 July 1998) I could perhaps
>see why. I get the impression that this particular company maybe
>requiring all boats to have a hull inspection every 4 years. I would
>be interested in other folks views/experiences. Is my impression
>correct? Is this a natural spin off from the BSC?
When I had a Converted Ships Lifeboat it was surveyed for insurance
purposes in 1975 ,1979 and 1983 so the 4 years insurance rule pre dates
the BSC Or has it been around so long :-)
John
From the Last of the Summer Water Land
Greg Chapman
On 3 Apr 1998, Robert Laws GSES95 wrote:
> we aren't a very organised lot
> here and I can't really see it working. We don't even buy our diesel
> in bulk by tanker at 14p/litre but go individually to Upware and pay
> 25p.
I have seen no discussion in the ng about the proposal to do away with Red
Diesel subsidy (I saw it mentioned in ther April issue of WW or one of the
other magazines). I thought the group might have something to say about
that but perhaps I missed it under some other subject line.
> Robert (note new slimline signature)
Aren't you a sweetie!
Much as I love this beach party chatter I also need a reliable means of
separating "technical" info on the waterways. I think it's time we time
we put a cap on the interminable "works for me/I'm outa here" thread!
Anyone want to suggest a name for a new ng for "Questions, Answers and
Announcements (no chat) on UK Waterways" to go in the RFD I'm about to put
together?
I'm going for:
uk.rec.waterways.technical
at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
Greg
Jeff Dennison
On Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:52:31 +0100, you wrote:
>I have seen no discussion in the ng about the proposal to do away with Red
>Diesel subsidy (I saw it mentioned in ther April issue of WW or one of the
>other magazines). I thought the group might have something to say about
>that but perhaps I missed it under some other subject line.
This topic has been discussed several times long before WW announced
anything. Look in the group archives.
>
Snip of unnnecessary sarcastic comment.
>
>Much as I love this beach party chatter I also need a reliable means of
>separating "technical" info on the waterways.
Try asking a question instead of getting on your high horse. You
might find that somene will respond. Also suggest that you check the
archives as you may find answers to the questions you want to ask.
You'll find them on George's pages. I have found that if you ask a
question about something technical you will invariably get a reply.
I bet your a real joy when your out on the cut. :-(
>I'm going for:
>
>uk.rec.waterways.technical
How about
uk.rec waterways.taking my.ball.home.
Martin Ludgate
In message <Pine.SUN.3.95.980403163507.11627G-100000@el
da.cam.net.uk>, Greg Chapman <aaa...@home.cam.net.uk>
writes
>
>I have seen no discussion in the ng about the proposal to do away with
>Red
>Diesel subsidy (I saw it mentioned in ther April issue of WW or one of
>the
>other magazines). I thought the group might have something to say
>about
>that but perhaps I missed it under some other subject line.
It has certainly been mentioned here in the last couple of months
in connection with the recent European proposals, mainly - I think
- in the regular monthly news postings from IWA head office
(usually under a subject of 'IWA News' or similar)
Rather longer ago there was a more general debate in this group
between those who believed that boat fuel should not incur what
was seen as a tax aimed specifically at curbing road use and / or
making it pay more towards its environmental costs, and those
who believed that anyone using fossil fuels should pay their
share, as it all contributes to using up resources and creating
pollution.
>
>Much as I love this beach party chatter I also need a reliable means of
>separating "technical" info on the waterways. I think it's time we time
>we put a cap on the interminable "works for me/I'm outa here" thread!
>
>Anyone want to suggest a name for a new ng for "Questions, Answers
>and
>Announcements (no chat) on UK Waterways" to go in the RFD I'm about
>to put
>together?
>
I don't really mind what you call it, as I probably won't subscribe to
it, or at least I'm unlikely to be a 'regular' on it (because I don't
intend to leave this group, since I enjoy the chat as well as the
questions and answers and announcements, and I'm not sure I'd
have the time to partake in both)
Of course, it may be that most of the subscribers in this group
decide to unsubscribe and subscribe to your new newsgroup, in
whici case I might well follow suit. But I still wouldn't really mind
what you called it...
--
Martin Ludgate
Martin Ludgate
The Web Page about the Cotswold Canals Trust's "First ever all-
Female Flyboat Run" has been updated to include a schedule
showing roughly where the crew of 'Clover' hope to be at various
times during the journey, so you can all look out for them and
maybe buy some of Clover's cargo, to help to raise money for the
restoration of the Cotswold Canals (and to keep your solid fuel
stoves going)
The web site is http://www.danevans.demon.co.uk/flyboat/
We'll be updating it as the trip takes place, so even if they get
behind schedule (or ahead of schedule for that matter) you will
still be able to find them.
We've also added details of a commemorative print of a drawing
of 'Clover' and its crew, which is also being sold to raise money
for restoration of the Cotswold Canals (but not to keep your solid
fuel stoves going!!)
--
Martin Ludgate
Andy Clarke
On Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:52:31 +0100, Greg Chapman <aaa...@home.cam.net.uk>
wrote:
>
>Much as I love this beach party chatter I also need a reliable means of
>separating "technical" info on the waterways. I think it's time we time
>we put a cap on the interminable "works for me/I'm outa here" thread!
>
>Anyone want to suggest a name for a new ng for "Questions, Answers and
>Announcements (no chat) on UK Waterways" to go in the RFD I'm about to put
>together?
>
>I'm going for:
>
>uk.rec.waterways.technical
>
>at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
I can see some merit in this suggestion, but if the group is to be mainly
of a technical nature why not put it under the uk.rec.boats hierarchy (if
that's the right word)?
Andy Clarke
--
BMS, Canal Wharf, Lower Heyford, South Oxford Canal
Mobile:0860 577480 Email: BMSer...@btinternet.com
Website: http://www.btinternet.com/~bmservices/bms/
Engine info, Boat Safety Scheme Q&A, Boats For Sale
David Long
In message <Pine.SUN.3.95.980403...@elda.cam.net.uk>,
Greg Chapman <aaa...@home.cam.net.uk> writes
>I have seen no discussion in the ng about the proposal to do away with Red
>Diesel subsidy (I saw it mentioned in ther April issue of WW or one of the
>other magazines). I thought the group might have something to say about
>that but perhaps I missed it under some other subject line.
We were discussing it well before WW got hold of it. Letters were being
sent to MPs etc from List/Group members. The IWA's response to the
threat was published here etc. Check our archives. You missed it, I'm
afraid - when did you join us?
>Anyone want to suggest a name for a new ng for "Questions, Answers and
>Announcements (no chat) on UK Waterways" to go in the RFD I'm about to put
>together?
>
>I'm going for:
>
>uk.rec.waterways.technical
>
>at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
My alternative would be, don't bother. I don't think there are enough
canals anoraks around to keep it going.
--
David Long
Michael J Wooding
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.980403...@elda.cam.net.uk>,
Greg Chapman <aaa...@home.cam.net.uk> writes
>I'm going for:
>
>uk.rec.waterways.technical
>
>at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
If it happens Greg, I promise not to inflict it with my flippant one-
liners !
Bruce Peckett
>
>
>On 3 Apr 1998, Robert Laws GSES95 wrote:
>
>> we aren't a very organised lot
>> here and I can't really see it working. We don't even buy our diesel
>> in bulk by tanker at 14p/litre but go individually to Upware and pay
>> 25p.
>
>I have seen no discussion in the ng about the proposal to do away with Red
>Diesel subsidy (I saw it mentioned in ther April issue of WW or one of the
>other magazines). I thought the group might have something to say about
>that but perhaps I missed it under some other subject line.
>
This subject has been discussed on more than one occasion - most
recently in January when there was a flurry of messages on the topic.
Try, as others have suggested, the archives on Blacksheep or try
searching on www.dejanews.com before making such comments.
There are few issues relating to UK inland waterways that are not
discussed on this news group / mailing list - usually weeks or months
ahead of anywhere else and many members of the group are active letter
writers and campaigner. The information I gain fro reading this group
enables me to respond to issues that would often be past history
before I go to hear about them through conventional channels.
>Much as I love this beach party chatter I also need a reliable means of
>separating "technical" info on the waterways. I think it's time we time
>we put a cap on the interminable "works for me/I'm outa here" thread!
>
So do I. The vast majority of the members of the group have indicated
a fervent desire to maintain the staus quo (with a general agreement
to take care over subject headers)
>Anyone want to suggest a name for a new ng for "Questions, Answers and
>Announcements (no chat) on UK Waterways" to go in the RFD I'm about to put
>together?
>
>I'm going for:
>
>uk.rec.waterways.technical
>
>at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
>
Alternative - forget it. Your completely overlooking, or choosing to
ignore, the fact that a considerable proportion of the readership of
this group do not have ready access to Usenet and therefore subscribe
to the mailing list. Do you have the technical expertise, the
equipment and the time to set up and run a second mail/news gateway to
enable those people (may of whom are the very experts you would need
to support your technical newsgroup) to take part?
I see your first posting (according to Deja News) was on 5/3/98 and
so far, apart from one totally off topic posting about surnames, 50%
of your output has been about computers on boats (fair enough topic)
and the other 50% relates to the amount of traffic on the news group.
(of which there would be a lot less if people quit moaning!)
Anyway, by all means put your RFD together. Propose away. It might, if
it does nothing else, put the lid on this debate once and for all.
I'll say now that I would vote against it because I don't think it
would solve the perceived problem and it would create more of it's
own. I also have doubts as to whether you'll get it past the UK Usenet
comittee anyway since they are likely to take the view that the
existing newsgroup is already actively providing the service your
proposing and there is no need for a further group. Of course, you
could always resort to the Alt heirarchy!
--
Regards
Bruce Peckett
Half Cut - Contemporary folk music & fun from the canals of England.
Reply to: Bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk Website: http://www.halfcut.demon.co.uk
Brett Laniosh
In article <RYzqAbA0...@g6iqm.demon.co.uk>, Michael J Wooding
<URL:mailto:mich...@g6iqm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.980403...@elda.cam.net.uk>,
> Greg Chapman <aaa...@home.cam.net.uk> writes
> >
> >uk.rec.waterways.technical
> >
> >at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
>
> liners !
>
> Mike
>
Demon seem to be getting behind with their newsfeed so I missed the
original posting for this. This may surprise a few on this this but I
actually think the idea of an RFD at this stage is a bad one.
There simply hasn't been enough discussion of the alternatives. I
actually think there is one out there that would satisfy the majority
(though I don't know what it is :-)) and of course one possibility is
to leave things exactly as they are.
How about the mailing list staying as it is but the newsgroup
sub-dividing? That way, those who want change can use the appropriate
newsgroup. Those who want to keep things as they are can continue with
the list.
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
I was reading the dictionary. I thought it was a poem about everything.
Michael J Wooding
In article <ant04184...@g4nzk.demon.co.uk>, Brett Laniosh
<br...@g4nzk.demon.co.uk> writes
>Demon seem to be getting behind with their newsfeed so I missed the
>original posting for this.
No problems here Brett
Andy Greener
Brett Laniosh <br...@g4nzk.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Demon seem to be getting behind with their newsfeed so I missed the
> actually think the idea of an RFD at this stage is a bad one.
> There simply hasn't been enough discussion of the alternatives. I
> actually think there is one out there that would satisfy the majority
> (though I don't know what it is :-)) and of course one possibility is
> to leave things exactly as they are.
>
> How about the mailing list staying as it is but the newsgroup
> sub-dividing? That way, those who want change can use the appropriate
> newsgroup. Those who want to keep things as they are can continue with
> the list.
Ah, but not everyone wants, or has access to, usenet news groups.
And this still doesn't address the problem of the list/ng gateway. Which
of the sub-divided newsgroups will it be linked to? Who decides, and what
about the people who can only get the mailing list, if it is not connected
to the newsgroup they are interested in?
Andy Greener, Whitchurch-on-Thames, Oxfordshire, UK
an...@gid.co.uk or an...@ist.co.uk or 0118 956 1248
Bruce Peckett
>Demon seem to be getting behind with their newsfeed so I missed the
>original posting for this. This may surprise a few on this this but I
>actually think the idea of an RFD at this stage is a bad one.
>There simply hasn't been enough discussion of the alternatives. I
>actually think there is one out there that would satisfy the majority
>(though I don't know what it is :-)) and of course one possibility is
>to leave things exactly as they are.
>
I agree that going for an RFD on a specific new newsgroup at this
stage is probably premature. If, and I say IF there is going to be a
new group or groups, it would make sense to ensure that it is properly
organises and constitued so that this situation does not arise again
in the forseeable future. This could well mean more than one new group
>How about the mailing list staying as it is but the newsgroup
>sub-dividing? That way, those who want change can use the appropriate
>newsgroup. Those who want to keep things as they are can continue with
>the list.
>
Won't work. I much prefer using Usenet but I would not wish to be
seperated from the list members, many of whom are friends and regular
corespondents and many other users of the newsgroup would, I'm sure
feel the same
Whatever happens, the existing news group and mailing list are going
to carry on much as they are, the question is whether to create more
news groups dealing with a narrower area of interest. Then, there
would be the question of whether to set up corresponding mailing lists
- if you don;t, then many valuable people will be denied to the new
group(s) as they do not have access to Usenet.
The sad thing about this whole debate is that the group/list as it is,
is the most active, lively, informed and enjoyable newsgroup I have
ever come across. Every other newsgroup I subscribe to lacks the vital
spark of life that runs through this group, splitting the group runs
the risk of extinguishing this spark.
Niall
>
>
>Anyone want to suggest a name for a new ng for "Questions, Answers and
>Announcements (no chat) on UK Waterways" to go in the RFD I'm about to put
>together?
>
>I'm going for:
>
>uk.rec.waterways.technical
>
>at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
>
Does this mean that uk.rec.waterways.* becomes a hierarchy, or does
that only apply to second level names?
I recall that when uk.telecom.mobile was created out of uk.telecom, it
meant that the whole process had to be gone through to create
uk.telecom.* as a uk. hierarchy, including the parent group.
Niall
(Drascombe Coaster - Tangram)
Brett Laniosh
In article <35258340...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
> So do I. The vast majority of the members of the group have indicated
> a fervent desire to maintain the staus quo (with a general agreement
> to take care over subject headers)
On what evidence do you base this "vast majority"?
Besides if it came to an RFD you might well get a large proportion of
ex-subscribers voting.
I really don't have a clear view on the numbers one way or the other but
I do feel that quotes of "vast majority" are totally uncooborated.
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet,
what happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?
Greg Chapman
On Fri, 03 Apr 1998 19:44:01 GMT, Andy Clarke
<BMSer...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >uk.rec.waterways.technical
> I can see some merit in this suggestion, but if the group is to be mainly
> of a technical nature why not put it under the uk.rec.boats hierarchy
Technical is a poor word for what I had in mind. I want it to cover
the waterways themselves including their history etc as well as the
craft on them. I would have said uk.rec.waterways.no-chat if I didn't
think that wasn't in the spirit of the naming conventions.
Greg
Greg Chapman
On 3 Apr 1998 19:06:31 -0000, edi...@navvies.demon.co.uk (Martin
Ludgate) wrote:
> It has certainly been mentioned here in the last couple of months
> in connection with the recent European proposals
I recognise that the magazines will be a couple of months behind the
chat here. I'm too new and missed the original stuff.
> Of course, it may be that most of the subscribers in this group
> decide to unsubscribe and subscribe to your new newsgroup,
That's not the intention. The idea is to allow in a completely new
lot, those currently put off by the volume of traffic and the banter -
which makes it difficult to detect what message body is worth
downloading.
I can't see what those who find the "beach party" atmosphere here so
appealing are so afraid of in a more tightly disciplined newsgroup.
It's clear to me that folks will use this forum for chat regardless of
the amount of waterways content just because they enjoy each others
company. They don't really need any serious conversation to do that!
Greg
Greg Chapman
On 3 Apr 1998 21:06:54 -0000, da...@scars.demon.co.uk (David Long)
wrote:
> >I'm going for:
> >
> >uk.rec.waterways.technical
> >
> >at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
>
> My alternative would be, don't bother. I don't think there are enough
> canals anoraks around to keep it going.
There's certainly enough good questions and answers in here. So
there's enough interest. The unanswered question is how many
unsubscribe because of the volume of banter and off-topic chat.
Perhaps a moderated/filtered version of the maillist would be a better
choice. There certainly seems to be a consensus that those who can
only receive this newwsgroup as a maillist suffer terribly.
Anyone able to take that task on?
Greg
Greg Chapman
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Brett Laniosh wrote:
> There simply hasn't been enough discussion of the alternatives.
I think you're right!
My ideal would be a monitored/moderated maillist which removes all the
off-topic messages, excessive quoting, one-line quips and private stuff,
but still allows maillist users to participate in the group in a
meaningful way and without the risk of losing the valuable contributions
of our "resident experts" who tend to be happy with the way things are.
The trouble is that it would have to be done manually and I don't believe
that anyone has the time/resources to do that, hence my very second best
solution.
Greg
Greg Chapman
On 3 Apr 1998 17:41:44 -0000, in uk.rec.waterways you wrote:
Re: Red Diesel subsidy
> This topic has been discussed several times long before WW announced
> anything. Look in the group archives.
How do I do this with only e-mail/newsgroup access only?
> Snip of unnnecessary sarcastic comment.
If that's a reference to my "Sweetie" line, then you mis understand.
Robert and I have met and I know that his reduction of his sig will
have been a geniune response to my request for less bandwidth and
he'll correctly interpret my response to be a genuine thank you.
Perhaps I should have added a smiley of some kind to avoid any
confusion.
> Try asking a question instead of getting on your high horse.
But how will I tell a genuine answer from the subject lines of the
replies? Experience tells me I may get a follow-up question from
someone else, an unrelated comment or question, or even some witty one
liner which may make me smile but doesn't answer the question.
> Also suggest that you check the
> archives as you may find answers to the questions you want to ask.
> You'll find them on George's pages.
Very difficult to do that with e-mail access only!
> How about
> uk.rec waterways.taking my.ball.home.
On the contrary! The idea is to allow more people to play. With
traffic as it is there are clearly some people leaving, and some
people, without newsgroup access, who are refusing to take the
maillist.
I can understand the fears of some who find things fine as they stand
and worry that they'll lose what they've got, but those who don't have
the resources to pay the phone bills/ lack the software/ lack the
hardware/ lack the time/ lack the interest in the humour and chat,
really do deserve a crack of the whip too!
Greg
Jeff Dennison
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 05:29:30 GMT, you wrote:
>On the contrary! The idea is to allow more people to play. With
>traffic as it is there are clearly some people leaving, and some
>people, without newsgroup access, who are refusing to take the
>maillist.
If folk only have email access then a new usenet group will not answer
the perceived problem.
Richard Lucas
The message <3527e8d6...@news.demon.co.uk>
from bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk (Bruce Peckett) contains these words:
> The sad thing about this whole debate is that the group/list as it is,
> is the most active, lively, informed and enjoyable newsgroup I have
> ever come across. Every other newsgroup I subscribe to lacks the vital
> spark of life that runs through this group, splitting the group runs
> the risk of extinguishing this spark.
Amen. I can add nothing to Bruce's comment.
--
Richard Lucas Ceres Fife Scotland
richar...@zetnet.co.uk
Jeff Dennison
I think you don't know what you want. History (social, economic and
general when was this built etc), styles of boats (both modern and
historic) fitting out, licensing and moorings good and bad places to
moor, good and bad pub/boatyards, music of the cut, technical
enquiries and answers, campaigning issues, towpaths, dog crap and
meetings of list/group members have all been discussed in this forum.
What do you want to exclude?
You've only been here five minutes yet want to change things for what
is IMHO a half baked idea.
Your idea is ill conceived, not thought out and poorly stated.
Regards
Glen Peckett
>The sad thing about this whole debate is that the group/list as it is,
>is the most active, lively, informed and enjoyable newsgroup I have
>ever come across. Every other newsgroup I subscribe to lacks the vital
>spark of life that runs through this group, splitting the group runs
>the risk of extinguishing this spark.
>
To add to that, many purely technical news groups I've looked at seem
to consist mainly of questions, followed by replies (if any at all) of
the "If you don't know that you're a stupid ********" type. It's the
"fun" aspects of this group that keep many of us reading and
contributing to both humurous and serious threads.
Having stayed out of this discussion so far, I'll just make my own
feelings clear...
Keep it as one newsgroup/list
Everyone take care with headers
Snip carefully when replying
Please, please, please no more binaries (the last one took longer to
download than the other 80+ posts together).
As I say, that's my personal viewpoint.
bpec...@cnt.org.uk
From: nia...@ndirect.co.uk (Niall)
>On Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:52:31 +0100, Greg Chapman
><aaa...@home.cam.net.uk> wrote:
>>Anyone want to suggest a name for a new ng for "Questions, Answers and
>>Announcements (no chat) on UK Waterways" to go in the RFD I'm about to
put
>>together?
>>
>>I'm going for:
>>
>>uk.rec.waterways.technical
>
>>at the moment, but alternatives welcome!
>
>Does this mean that uk.rec.waterways.* becomes a hierarchy, or does
>that only apply to second level names?
>I recall that when uk.telecom.mobile was created out of uk.telecom, it
>meant that the whole process had to be gone through to create
>uk.telecom.* as a uk. hierarchy, including the parent group.
>
>Niall
Yes, it would mean at least two, or maybe three, RFD's (Requests for
discussion). One to create UK.REC.WATERWAYS as a heirarchy, one to create
the new group UK.REC.WATERWAYS.TECHNICAL and maybe a third to rename
UK.REC.WATERWAYS and move it further down the heirarchy. (as
UK.REC.WATERWAYS.THE_REALLY_NICE_PEOPLE perhaps? :-)
Needless to day, this whole process is going to be very time consuming and
there is no guarantee that the votes would go through at the end of the
excercise. All this to deal with a problem that is percieved by only a
handful of people and that is percieved differently by each of them.
For instance, on of the protaganists complained about threads about GIGS.
They are not of interest to him so, in his opinion, are inappropriate. To
another subscriber, this might be the very reason why they subscribe.
I'm with Dral on this, certain parties are trying to mould this group to
conform to their ideal. If you step back and look at the way
UK.REC.WATERWAYS and the Canals mailing list operate, you will find a great
deal to commend and very little to criticise.
Nit picking about 4 lines or 5 lines in a sig file, whether to snip to a
sentence or a paragraph or what have you is just getting silly. OK, no-one
wants to see an entire digest copied into a reply but you have to include
sufficient of the message you a replying to to give your comments context.
This current debate seems to be driven by a lack of understanding about the
way that Usenet and mailing lists work (I'm talking more sociologically
than technically, although the latter comes into it)
Finally, at last I hear you cry, I think it is high time this debate was
brought to a close. Would those people who think there is too much traffic
or whatever, kindly go away and formulate your proposals. Put your RFD(s)
together and submit them through the proper channels. At least then the
debate will be on the appropriate newsgroup!
BTW, reading through about 2 dozen digests, I have to say that there was
very little off topic content - other than this thread of course.
Bruce
Reply to bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk
Stewart Kirby
-----Original Message-----
From: bpec...@cnt.org.uk <bpec...@cnt.org.uk>
To: can...@blacksheep.org <can...@blacksheep.org>
Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: RFD New Newsgroup
Whole message snipped, suggest you read the original.
I'm with Bruce on this 1000 percent. I've dipped into some of the messages
about this but to be honest I was waiting for a suitable time to say what
Bruce said and zapped a lot of the messages the way I zap all the others
that I'm not interested in either by making a guess based on subject header
or because I find a particular poster very rarely says anything interesting.
One of the few exceptions is Billyboy, I read all his post whatever the
header 'cos he's certifiable but interestingly so.
Lets get back to talking about interesting things, like boating.
Stewart
John Bennett
On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 Brett Laniosh <br...@g4nzk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <35258340...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
>
>> So do I. The vast majority of the members of the group have indicated
>> a fervent desire to maintain the staus quo (with a general agreement
>> to take care over subject headers)
>
>On what evidence do you base this "vast majority"?
>Besides if it came to an RFD you might well get a large proportion of
>ex-subscribers voting.
>
>I really don't have a clear view on the numbers one way or the other but
>I do feel that quotes of "vast majority" are totally uncooborated.
>
point of this whole discussion. It is obvious that there are a number
of people who subscribe/contribute to the list/ng who are having
difficulties either with the volume or the content of the postings.
This has been made quite apparent, so the choices are simple - either
"we", selfishly, tell them all to clear off and stop irritating "us" or
we try and work out a way to keep everyone happy! My preference is to
try and accommodate as many people as possible. This is supposed to be
a "friendly" group, but from some of the postings that have been made in
response to a perfectly reasonable request for a discussion about the
problem it sometimes doesn't appear that way!
I (and others) have suggested the idea of a moderated newsgroup running
in parallel with the main list/ng which would involve someone
"censoring" the content. Andy Greener and George Pearson have come up
with a similar idea based on a mailling list using "key words" which
would achieve the same result and not require the services of a
moderator. Both methods would have no effect on the status quo of the
main list/ng. The only disadvantage of the key words scheme is that it
requires everyone to observe the convention (possibly unlikely?;-)
There are potential solutions that could keep (almost) everyone happy
here, lets start discussing them now, please?!!
Cheers John
--
John Bennett
Cheddar **To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive**
Somerset UK (Robert Louis Stevenson)
Billyboy
On 6 Apr 1998 12:13:02 -0000, the very charming Stewart
Kirby wrote:
> I zap all the others ....
> that I'm not interested in, either by making a guess
> based on subject header or because I find a particular
> poster very rarely says anything interesting.
> One of the few exceptions is Billyboy, I read all his
> post whatever the header 'cos he's certifiable but
> interestingly so.
Dear Sir or Madam (as the case may be).
I am quite touched. I am 50 something years old, and cannot
recall any better compliment paid to me.
Bugger!!! I now also owe you a tot of Trawler Rum, followed
by a sincere handshake (if you be a Sir) or a peck on the
cheek (if you be a Madam) to be paid at a GIG, either here
(hopefully) or in the fabled cut in the sky.
To make some comments upon this thread ..........
People like me have a great problem.
Regarding canals etc. I know stuff all about anything!!
BUT, I am very interested in them, and their history,
sociology, modus operandi, etc. I am also working towards a
life plan of acquiring and fitting out a nb, living on it
and cruising around the UK, Europe and maybe even Ireland.
I am a technical dimmo regarding nbs, engines (indeed, all
things engineering), computing, internetting etc). Hence I
am full of questions but have very few answers.
I would guess that the people (person?) who would like a
more focussed group comes from an
engineering/accountancy/computing background, as many such
people, although they are technically very competent,
exhibit a remarkable lack of 'people' skills. By joining in
with the apparently irrelevant 'noise' of the group, one
forges relationships with individuals, discusses canally
things off line with folk, meets folk face to face and
generally engage in straight-forward, human interaction,
from (and through) which one learns.
I find it difficult to see why knowledgeable folk should
answer all the many questions that I have if they do not get
something back from me. Chris knows a lot about maintaining
and handling boats. Mike is a professional canal historian.
Maybe if I annoy them, amuse them, make them think, help
them to see things from a different perspective - in other
words let them know that I am a vulnerable human bean (just
as we all are) then maybe they will help to answer the many
questions that I have (and they do!! Thanks, guys).
(This is, perhaps, a rather cold-blooded view of human
interactions - but I cannot at the the moment find a better
way to explain it).
What we have here is not a panel of experts who answer
questions. There are specific sites on the internet where
most such basic information resides. The only ngs I know
that answer questions directly are sponsored by commercial
interests (e.g. I use Opera as my web browser. When I post
a question to the ng that deals with browsers, people from
Opera often answer my questions directly). I find it
difficult to envisage a Q and A ng operating effectively
without commercial interests running it.
What we have is a group of friends who discuss issues of
mutual interest.
Some questions never get answered. In the early days, I
used to keep a check on the questions asked, and if an
answer was not fifthcoming in a week or so, I'd try and
answer it myself (Yes! I'm to blame if your boat sank.
Sorry!!)
It is noticeably that folk spring up from no-where, ask a
deep and meaningful question, and then disappear never to be
heard of again. There was the strange girl who appeared a
few months ago wanting us to do her college assignments for
her, and got all cross when we asked some questions about
her questions. To put it simply, why should an individual's
questions be answered if the individual does not put back
something back into the group.
Sorry if I'm rambling. Today has been a long day. Work,
electricity failure, GSM network working only fitfully, mail
server AND name server on the blink, Beach BBQ in the
evening and a few wets, plus reading a book about the
slaughter of upwards of one million Armenians by the Turks
in 1914/15/16. I will ramble no more tonight!!
Certain folk singers with a back-ground in the Social
Services, and certain Pecketty people are stating my case
far more succinctly and with greater verve and vigour.
Thanks Guys (and others).
Toodle pip!!
Bill
Mike Casswell
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 05:29:27 GMT, Greg Chapman wrote:
>I can't see what those who find the "beach party" atmosphere here so
>appealing are so afraid of in a more tightly disciplined newsgroup.
>It's clear to me that folks will use this forum for chat regardless of
>the amount of waterways content just because they enjoy each others
>company. They don't really need any serious conversation to do that!
I enjoy both the atmosphere here and the amazingly varied information.
(Although I do prefer the pub analogy to the beach, it's good for all
of Usenet/Mailing Lists.)
I am 'afraid of' having to take another newsgroup to cover the same
topic that I already take by mailing list. Where is the advantage in
having to duplicate one's efforts? Or do you have some mechanism in
mind for siphoning off all the informational posts from here?
If there were two clear areas of interest, just as examples canals and
rivers or cruising and canal history, with little overlap, then a new
group would be a perfectly reasonable response. I do not believe that
this applies here.
In reality, whatever happens over a new group, people will continue to
post information here. The situation will be worse, not better.
BTW, what have you in mind for the first person to make a 'chatty'
post to the new group?
--
|
| Mike Casswell Leek, Staffordshire, England
|
| mi...@casswell.u-net.com and often @ The Wellington Inn
David Long
In message <3542d6f4...@news.cam.net.uk>, Greg Chapman
<gr...@home.cam.net.uk> writes
>
>Perhaps a moderated/filtered version of the maillist would be a better
>choice.
No censorship, ta.
> There certainly seems to be a consensus that those who can
>only receive this newwsgroup as a maillist suffer terribly.
I access it via email for convenience (I can see whether I have other
emails as I skim through the postings on the site I have most interest
in).
>
>Anyone able to take that task on?
Please drop this - you haven't even asked those who provide the
machinery for the List/Group mirroring if they mind your making such
proposals.
--
David Long
David Long
In message <353fd3f0...@news.cam.net.uk>, Greg Chapman
<gr...@home.cam.net.uk> writes
>I can't see what those who find the "beach party" atmosphere here so
>appealing are so afraid of in a more tightly disciplined newsgroup.
>It's clear to me that folks will use this forum for chat regardless of
>the amount of waterways content just because they enjoy each others
>company. They don't really need any serious conversation to do that!
Most of the chatterers are also the sources of very useful information.
My observations of most people as they join this group is that they
respond to someone's enquiry, giving of their own knowledge and
expertise, and seem to like what they find in others' postings and stick
around. Occasionally they tell us when they're moving on, but usually
they don't. We occasionally have folk who seem to read the postings for
a while, ask no questions, make no contributions, and then leave with
some kind of disparaging remark. Some lurk, ask a question or two, or
venture an opinion, and go back into obscurity. I guess there are others
who lurk, and pass on quietly, re-subscribing from time to time to see
what's under discussion.
I can't for the life of me see how you can change all this for the
better by imposing discipline upon it. It would be like a formal
Meeting, where everything has to go through the Chair, with Notice being
given of Subjects for Debate, and Points of Order being made when anyone
failed to keep to the subject on the Agenda items. That's okay for
monthly Board Meetings - but hardly worth having compared with what we
do have - folk sat around, politely and efficiently responding to one
another's queries and opinions, and chatting amongst themselves in the
spaces between - so that they're there when next called upon.
--
David Long
David Long
In message <352b26d2...@news.newsguy.com>, Billyboy
<bill...@gto.net.om> writes
> if an
>answer was not fifthcoming in a week or so,
Ah, a Victor Borge fan!
I'm two, three!
>Bill
... done said it all.
--
David Long
Brian L Dominic
On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:51:40 GMT, in uk.rec.waterways you wrote:
>The sad thing about this whole debate is that the group/list as it is,
>is the most active, lively, informed and enjoyable newsgroup I have
>ever come across. Every other newsgroup I subscribe to lacks the vital
>spark of life that runs through this group, splitting the group runs
>the risk of extinguishing this spark.
Thanks for summing up the whole thing in a nutshell!!
Brian L Dominic
Golden Valley, Riddings, Derbyshire
Web Site: http://www.proweb.co.uk/~dominicfam/
Brett Laniosh
In article <3527e8d6...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
<URL:mailto:bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 18:18:42 +0000, Brett Laniosh
> <br...@g4nzk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Demon seem to be getting behind with their newsfeed so I missed the
> >original posting for this. This may surprise a few on this this but I
> >actually think the idea of an RFD at this stage is a bad one.
> >(though I don't know what it is :-)) and of course one possibility is
> >to leave things exactly as they are.
> >
> I agree that going for an RFD on a specific new newsgroup at this
> stage is probably premature. If, and I say IF there is going to be a
> new group or groups, it would make sense to ensure that it is properly
> organises and constitued so that this situation does not arise again
> in the forseeable future. This could well mean more than one new group
>
> >How about the mailing list staying as it is but the newsgroup
> >sub-dividing? That way, those who want change can use the appropriate
> >newsgroup. Those who want to keep things as they are can continue with
> >the list.
> >
> Won't work. I much prefer using Usenet but I would not wish to be
> seperated from the list members, many of whom are friends and regular
> corespondents and many other users of the newsgroup would, I'm sure
> feel the same
>
See my previous posting. I wasn't suggesting any cut from the list to
the ngs
> Whatever happens, the existing news group and mailing list are going
> to carry on much as they are, the question is whether to create more
> news groups dealing with a narrower area of interest. Then, there
> would be the question of whether to set up corresponding mailing lists
> - if you don;t, then many valuable people will be denied to the new
> group(s) as they do not have access to Usenet.
>
Not if the mailing list was fed from the two or three newsgroups.
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
When I was five years old I was on a merry go round. There was a gunshot
nearby. The horses stampeded. There I was running down the street on a
purple wooden horse.
Brett Laniosh
In article <802565DE.0...@notesln1.cnt.org.uk>,
<URL:mailto:bpec...@cnt.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Yes, it would mean at least two, or maybe three, RFD's (Requests for
> discussion). One to create UK.REC.WATERWAYS as a heirarchy, one to create
> the new group UK.REC.WATERWAYS.TECHNICAL and maybe a third to rename
> UK.REC.WATERWAYS and move it further down the heirarchy. (as
> UK.REC.WATERWAYS.THE_REALLY_NICE_PEOPLE perhaps? :-)
>
> Needless to day, this whole process is going to be very time consuming and
> there is no guarantee that the votes would go through at the end of the
> excercise. All this to deal with a problem that is percieved by only a
> handful of people and that is percieved differently by each of them.
>
First of all I would take issue about the "handful" of people.
Anecdotal evidence is mealingless whatever side of the fence you sit
on. Certainly those who are unhappy with the current situation have a
come up with a variety of ideas and what is wrong with that? Debate is
healthy.
>
> I'm with Dral on this, certain parties are trying to mould this group to
> conform to their ideal. If you step back and look at the way
> UK.REC.WATERWAYS and the Canals mailing list operate, you will find a great
> deal to commend and very little to criticise.
I for one take the view that indeed there is much good here but
there are some problems for some (I would say an increasing number) of
users who thing things can be improved. which is the more constructive attitude:
"I don't have a problem, so there isn't a problem"
or
"Some folk have a problem, let's discuss some possible alternatives that would keep me AND
everyone else happy"?
>
> This current debate seems to be driven by a lack of understanding about the
> way that Usenet and mailing lists work (I'm talking more sociologically
> than technically, although the latter comes into it)
>
> Finally, at last I hear you cry, I think it is high time this debate was
> brought to a close. Would those people who think there is too much traffic
> or whatever, kindly go away and formulate your proposals. Put your RFD(s)
> together and submit them through the proper channels. At least then the
> debate will be on the appropriate newsgroup!
Shouldn't things be discussed here first of all? After all this discussion IS
pertinent to this group. IF anything is going to happen it would be
much better if folk were allowed to air their views here.
Any proposal is not going to get very far, if it hasn't been discussed
in the relevant newsgroup/list.
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
I love to go shopping. I love to freak out salespeople. They ask me if they
can help me, and I say, "Have you got anything I'd like?" Then they ask me
what size I need, and I say, "Extra medium."
Brett Laniosh
In article <352be19f...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>, Jim Pulling
<URL:mailto:delt...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
> Brett Laniosh <br...@g4nzk.demon.co.uk> recently penned ...
>
> >How about the mailing list staying as it is but the newsgroup
> >sub-dividing? That way, those who want change can use the appropriate
> >newsgroup. Those who want to keep things as they are can continue with
> >the list.
>
That is what I envisaged
> I think that
> would mean more complex merge-software to cut out (eg) cross-posts and
> spam.
Point taken re x-posts but the Spam problem (if there is one) is no different to
the situation at present.
> I think any discussion which considers whether there should be one or more
> newsgroups, what their relationship with the mail list and the digest
> should be and what it would mean to the way the newsgroup is currently
> handled really needs some technical input from George and Peter.
Absoultely.
>
> I think it's also worth recording that anyone who feels sufficiently
> strongly about creating a new group doesn't need a direct link to the
> Internet and doesn't need to operate it as a mailing list. They can set one
> up with the help of a decent ISP. However, it is a bit of a tortuous road
> at the end of which there is a requirement for a majority vote in favour.
>
I would agree that IF anything ever gets to the proposal stage there would
need to be a lot more discussion of the possible alternatives.
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
I took a baby shower.
Bruce Peckett
>In article <35258340...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
>
>> So do I. The vast majority of the members of the group have indicated
>> a fervent desire to maintain the staus quo (with a general agreement
>> to take care over subject headers)
>
>On what evidence do you base this "vast majority"?
Care to go back and count up the responses to this thread along the
way? Add in the number of private emails I;ve recieved from people
saying "hear hear", "I agree with you 100%" etc.
I stand by what I said, prove me wrong!
>Besides if it came to an RFD you might well get a large proportion of
>ex-subscribers voting.
>
I said "The vast majority of the members of the group", I did not
inlcude any past subscribers in that statement, I have no way of
knowing their views.
>I really don't have a clear view on the numbers one way or the other but
>I do feel that quotes of "vast majority" are totally uncooborated.
>
Like I said, prove me wrong! :-) Coroborated or not, it is my definete
impression that that is the case. I haven't time in my very busy life
to go back and count up. If your certain I'm wrong then, as I;ve
already said, go for the vote on a new newsgroup.
Bruce Peckett
Hi John
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:17:27 +0100, John Bennett
<jo...@johnpb.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Guys please, whether the "majority" want this or that is surely not the
>point of this whole discussion.
Mmm, I *think* that I beg to differ. The will of the majority should
prevail - Usenet is run along democratic lines after all
> It is obvious that there are a number
>of people who subscribe/contribute to the list/ng who are having
>difficulties either with the volume or the content of the postings.
>
How many exactly? I was shot at for saying the vast majority of the
group are in favour of the status quo (which I firmly believe is the
case). So far, the "lets change things" argument seems to have just
two protagonists
>This has been made quite apparent, so the choices are simple - either
>"we", selfishly, tell them all to clear off and stop irritating "us" or
>we try and work out a way to keep everyone happy!
Experience of life to date indicates that it ain't humanly possible to
keep *everyone" happy - but I'll be the first to try!
>I (and others) have suggested the idea of a moderated newsgroup running
>in parallel with the main list/ng which would involve someone
>"censoring" the content. Andy Greener and George Pearson have come up
>with a similar idea based on a mailling list using "key words" which
>would achieve the same result and not require the services of a
>moderator. Both methods would have no effect on the status quo of the
>main list/ng. The only disadvantage of the key words scheme is that it
>requires everyone to observe the convention (possibly unlikely?;-)
>
Ok, but go back and review recent traffic on the group. See if you can
decide on a set of criteria that will significantly reduce the number
of postings without eliminating exactly the type of material that
friends Greg and Brett are keen to see. I have thought about this
seriously and, whilst it seems fine in theory, I cannot see any way
that it can be made to work satisfactorily in practice. I;d be
delighted if it would as it would be the best of all worlds for all.
>There are potential solutions that could keep (almost) everyone happy
>here, lets start discussing them now, please?!!
>
Ah ha - you said "almost" :-) Exactly my point!
Dral
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:51:02 GMT the message entitled
/Re: Fuel Prices and RFD New Newsgroup/ was sent by *Jeff Dennison*
> I think you don't know what you want. History (social, economic and
> general when was this built etc), styles of boats (both modern and
> historic) fitting out, licensing and moorings good and bad places to
> moor, good and bad pub/boatyards, music of the cut, technical
> enquiries and answers, campaigning issues, towpaths, dog crap and
> meetings of list/group members have all been discussed in this forum.
> What do you want to exclude?
>
> You've only been here five minutes yet want to change things for what
> is IMHO a half baked idea.
>
> Your idea is ill conceived, not thought out and poorly stated.
>
> Regards
> Jeff
Listen, there comes a time when politeness has had its day.
Mr. Greg Chapman - whoever you are - either join in or go away.
--
--
__________________________________
- Dral -
__________________________________
Dral
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:17:27 +0100 the message entitled
/Re: Fuel Prices and RFD New Newsgroup/ was sent by *John Bennett*
> This is supposed to be
> a "friendly" group, but from some of the postings that have been made in
> response to a perfectly reasonable request for a discussion about the
> problem it sometimes doesn't appear that way!
But there isn't a problem John. The regular posters to this group are
the ones who matter and I don't see any of them wanting a split. These
"splitters" all appear to be people I'd never heard of until this
began. We've agreed that subjects and threads and sigs and snipping
should be better controlled but nobody is going to tell me what I can
or can't talk about. I joined this group on the understanding it was a
free and open forum with a canal theme (for want of a better term). If
I'm wrong about this then somebody had better speak up fast.
Mr. Chapman - Where do you feel you have earned the right to gate
crash our news group and try to split it up? I don't know you (maybe
others do) but I think a little effort to ask a few questions and join
in some discussions may have done you no harm. If it were up to me
I'd throw you out. Its our (beach) party and we'll chat if we want to.
The thing is, the idle chat is not here to stop serious discussion,
its the fill in between serious discussions. Look at some of the
stuff we've covered very recently. The sunk junk, Bruce's Northampton
clean up, oil changes, navigation lights, history of the Ashby Canal,
English Nature, etc etc etc. LOTS of serious discussions.
I harp back to the fact that these people who never post except to say
"goodbye - I hate you" always make a mention of us being /too/
friendly and complain about us organising GIGs. And basically this is
what some are now trying to cut out by starting a new group. Is it
jealousy, feeling left out or an inability to socialise that really
bothers you people?
> The only disadvantage of the key words scheme is that it
> requires everyone to observe the convention (possibly unlikely?;-)
>
Very unlikely and will probably put people off joining in for fear of
being flamed for not using the right keys.
> There are potential solutions that could keep (almost) everyone happy
> here, lets start discussing them now, please?!!
>
I'm not interested in keeping everyone happy - only in keeping the
group as it is. Thats not selfish because theres a big world wide web
out there, let them go play boats in their own canal, ours doesn't
need restoring.
Dral
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:15:39 GMT the message entitled
/Re: RFD New Newsgroup/ was sent by *Billyboy*
> (This is, perhaps, a rather cold-blooded view of human
> interactions - but I cannot at the the moment find a better
> way to explain it).
>
I'd say it was just about spot on.
> What we have here is not a panel of experts who answer
> questions.
Mmmm. I wonder if the people who want to split /us/ up so they can
talk just techy or just history have wondered where they will get
their answers from, because it is answers to their questions that they
are after - they never seem to input anything in return. How do they
know our technical people and historians will subscribe to their
no-chat-no-jokes forum. Most of the technical/historian types are also
the ones doing most of the chin wagging (can a chin be wagged via a
keyboard). Take Chris for instance who is repeatedly being named as
one of our technical experts - he's the one organising the GIG that
these tech hungry people want banned from discussions!
> It is noticeably that folk spring up from no-where, ask a
> deep and meaningful question, and then disappear never to be
> heard of again. There was the strange girl who appeared a
> few months ago wanting us to do her college assignments for
> her, and got all cross when we asked some questions about
> her questions. To put it simply, why should an individual's
> questions be answered if the individual does not put back
> something back into the group.
>
What is that stupid term? Super Information Highway or something?
Too many people think that the Internet is ONLY for information. For
me its very much an entertainment. Information is only a bonus.
> Sorry if I'm rambling.
Don't you /ever/ apologise for rambling Bill. You have every right to
say your piece - and long may you do so.
Val Robbins
Bill - you said it all beautifully about the group and
how it all works - however, one phrase jumped out at me
from your post........
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:15:39 GMT Billyboy
<bill...@gto.net.om> wrote:
> On 6 Apr 1998 12:13:02 -0000, the very charming Stewart
> Kirby wrote:
>
>
> > I zap all the others ....
> > that I'm not interested in, either by making a guess
> > based on subject header or because I find a particular
> > poster very rarely says anything interesting.
> > One of the few exceptions is Billyboy, I read all his
> > post whatever the header 'cos he's certifiable but
> > interestingly so.
>
> Dear Sir or Madam (as the case may be).
>
> I am quite touched. I am 50 something years old, and cannot
> recall any better compliment paid to me.
>
> Bugger!!! I now also owe you a tot of Trawler Rum,
followed
> by a sincere handshake (if you be a Sir) or a peck on the
> cheek (if you be a Madam) to be paid at a GIG, either here
> (hopefully) or in the fabled cut in the sky.
>
Does this mean you will be at this year's party????
What excitement - I think we ALL owe you a drink :-)
Waiting in anticipation.........
Val
(Thumper, Beeston)
Brian L Dominic
On 6 Apr 1998 22:31:56 -0000, in uk.rec.waterways you wrote:
>In message <352b26d2...@news.newsguy.com>, Billyboy
><bill...@gto.net.om> writes
>> if an
>>answer was not fifthcoming in a week or so,
>
>Ah, a Victor Borge fan!
>
>I'm two, three!
Do you feel don't you think this newsgroup (as it is, unadulterated)
is twoterful??
Seriously, I have sometimes had difficulty in keeping up with the
volume of postings, but I eventually catch up and if my "answers" have
been a bit late, so what??
Billyboy
Val -
Please belive me when I say that that I have never had any
intentions of leading young maidens astray.
However
I said:
> I now also owe you a tot of Trawler Rum, followed
> by a sincere handshake (if you be a Sir) or a peck on the
> cheek (if you be a Madam) to be paid at a GIG, either here
> (hopefully) or in the fabled cut in the sky.
Sadly, I mean't A GIG - one to be held at some indeterminate
time in the future - and not THE GIG to be held at
Normanton-on-Soar later this year.
Sorry to miss you all again, and thanks also, Val, for your
kind sentiments. Have you found a Proper Person for Thumper
yet?
Toodle pip!!
Bill
Val Robbins
On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:32:34 GMT Billyboy
<bill...@gto.net.om> wrote:
> Sorry to miss you all again, and thanks also, Val, for your
> kind sentiments. Have you found a Proper Person for Thumper
> yet?
>
Regrettably, Bill, there are two Proper People supposed to
be getting on with Thumper's work and both are still Too
Busy to do it :-(
Hopefully, though, a poke in the eye with a sharp stick
(metaphorically speaking!!) last week may have got them
moving a bit.
Cheers,
Val
David Long
In message <352af773...@post.proweb.co.uk>, Brian L Dominic
<domin...@proweb.co.uk> writes
>On 6 Apr 1998 22:31:56 -0000, in uk.rec.waterways you wrote:
>
>>In message <352b26d2...@news.newsguy.com>, Billyboy
>><bill...@gto.net.om> writes
>>> if an
>>>answer was not fifthcoming in a week or so,
>>
>>Ah, a Victor Borge fan!
>>
>>I'm two, three!
>
>Do you feel don't you think this newsgroup (as it is, unadulterated
>is twoterful??
Yes.
>
>Seriously, I have sometimes had difficulty in keeping up with the
>volume of postings, but I eventually catch up and if my "answers" have
>been a bit late, so what??
They make no more, or less, sense for that!
--
David Long
Peter Waite
-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Peckett <gl...@spxuk.co.uk>
To: can...@blacksheep.org <can...@blacksheep.org>
Date: 06 April 1998 15:01
Subject: Re: RFD New Newsgroup
>On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:51:40 GMT, bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk (Bruce
>Peckett) wrote, in reply to someone else who I have forgotten, who said:
>
>
>>the most active, lively, informed and enjoyable newsgroup I have
>>ever come across. Every other newsgroup I subscribe to lacks the vital
>>spark of life that runs through this group, splitting the group runs
>>the risk of extinguishing this spark.
>>
>
><snip>.
>
>Having stayed out of this discussion so far, I'll just make my own
>feelings clear...
>
>Keep it as one newsgroup/list
>Everyone take care with headers
Am I too late or can I add my agreement with Bruce. It is normally quick to
scan through the mail once a day and delete all those with headers that do
not look interesting, or signify a thread which you have tired of. The
problem comes when you are away for a few days and come back to find 1000
mailings waiting, and you have missed the thread development! Take care
with the headers.
Peter Waite
(The sometimes careless but (so far) never head(er)less!)
Brett Laniosh
In article <35297D85.MD...@enterprise.net>, Dral
<URL:mailto:dr...@enterprise.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:17:27 +0100 the message entitled
> /Re: Fuel Prices and RFD New Newsgroup/ was sent by *John Bennett*
>
> > This is supposed to be
> > a "friendly" group, but from some of the postings that have been made in
> > response to a perfectly reasonable request for a discussion about the
> > problem it sometimes doesn't appear that way!
>
> But there isn't a problem John. The regular posters to this group are
> the ones who matter and I don't see any of them wanting a split. These
> "splitters" all appear to be people I'd never heard of until this
> began. We've agreed that subjects and threads and sigs and snipping
> should be better controlled but nobody is going to tell me what I can
> or can't talk about. I joined this group on the understanding it was a
> free and open forum with a canal theme (for want of a better term). If
> I'm wrong about this then somebody had better speak up fast.
Now who is trying to split the group?
I have subscribed to this group for three years and
Chris D was here ages before that.
> >
> I'm not interested in keeping everyone happy - only in keeping the
> group as it is. Thats not selfish because theres a big world wide web
> out there, let them go play boats in their own canal, ours doesn't
> need restoring.
>
Well that says it all. :-(
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
(Referring to a glass of water:) I mixed this myself. Two parts H, one part O. I don't trust anybody!
Brett Laniosh
In article <352974d5...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
<URL:mailto:bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> Ok, but go back and review recent traffic on the group. See if you can
> decide on a set of criteria that will significantly reduce the number
> of postings without eliminating exactly the type of material that
> friends Greg and Brett are keen to see. I have thought about this
> seriously and, whilst it seems fine in theory, I cannot see any way
> that it can be made to work satisfactorily in practice. I;d be
> delighted if it would as it would be the best of all worlds for all.
This is NOT what I have been saying. In my original post I made NO
reference to eliminating any type of posting whatsoever. My idea was
to simply take existing postings and put them into categories. I
suggested three:
boats
waterways
and
misc
ie NO ELIMINATING!
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
I got my driver's license photo taken out of focus on purpose. Now when I
get pulled over the cop looks at it (moving it nearer and farther, trying
to see it clearly)...and says, "Here, you can go."
Brett Laniosh
In article <352973c8...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
<URL:mailto:bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I really don't have a clear view on the numbers one way or the other but
> >I do feel that quotes of "vast majority" are totally uncooborated.
> >
> Like I said, prove me wrong! :-) Coroborated or not, it is my definete
> impression that that is the case. I haven't time in my very busy life
> to go back and count up. If your certain I'm wrong then, as I;ve
> already said, go for the vote on a new newsgroup.
A bit of a daft way to disuss things really. I've got fairies at the
bottom of my garden. Prove me wrong Bruce.
I'm taking John Bennetts very sensible advice (as usual!) on this matter.
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
It's a good thing we have gravity, or else when birds died they'd just stay
right up there. Hunters would be all confused.
Jeff Dennison
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:14:16 +0000, you wrote:
>This is NOT what I have been saying. In my original post I made NO
>reference to eliminating any type of posting whatsoever. My idea was
>to simply take existing postings and put them into categories. I
>suggested three:
> boats
> waterways
>and
> misc
>
> ie NO ELIMINATING!
Ok so I want to write a report about my journey in a boat which is
horse drawn along a waterway that has just been restored with a lot
of work having been done by WRG. Give an account of the objections
that had to be overcome from the environmental lobby and tell you all
about the duff (off topic) real ale pubs on the route that don't sell
proper keg beer. Which one do I write to?
Suggest you put that idea where the Sun doesn't shine. :-)
Regards
Jeff
-
Songs of the Waterways - Telephone 01203 615582 Mobile 0976 167574
The compact disc of "They're Coming Back to the Water" is now available.
Full details at http://www.pipemedia.net/users/jeffd/index.htm
A hangover is just the Wrath of Grapes
Michael J Wooding
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.980406...@elda.cam.net.uk>,
Greg Chapman <aaa...@home.cam.net.uk> writes
>My ideal would be a monitored/moderated maillist which removes all the
>off-topic messages, excessive quoting, one-line quips and private stuff,
>but still allows maillist users to participate in the group in a
>meaningful way and without the risk of losing the valuable contributions
>of our "resident experts" who tend to be happy with the way things are.
So you are suggesting a censor? NO WAY
As I have said to you by email, if an ng was set up and agreed to be for
'technical' matters only then I personally would not (unless severely
provoked :>) fill it up with my usual one-liner comments and matters of
GiGinness, etc
However, the instant anyone starts to censor this newsgroup is the
instant in which it dies. And by what right would anyone do so? Are the
Thought Police joining us now?
Mike
--
Michael J Wooding - sans bateaux
NABO Webmaster http://www.clearlight.com/~nabo
email: na...@clearlight.com
The Cutpics site: http://www.vhfcomm.co.uk/cutpics.htm
The Springer Owners Club site: http://www.vhfcomm.co.uk/springer.htm
Michael J Wooding
In article <352af773...@post.proweb.co.uk>, Brian L Dominic
<domin...@proweb.co.uk> writes
>Seriously, I have sometimes had difficulty in keeping up with the
>volume of postings, but I eventually catch up and if my "answers" have
>been a bit late, so what??
Know the feeling sometimes Brian - having been down south for a couple
of days I came back tonight to 280 odd postings, and I don't think we
have logged in yet tonight. Still I agree with you 100%
Mike - off to 'sunny' Cromer at some ungodly hour of tomorrow morning!
Justin Taberham
I haven't been taking part in this discussion so far, because whatever
happens I will be keeping an eye on all the relevant newsgroups. I am on
several, so have a good feel for what works. Newsgroups which are
strictly moderated are tedious and unfriendly (i.e. some scientific
ones), ones which are slightly moderated make ng members uncomfortable
about being open, and unmoderated ones promote free comment and are more
interesting. It would not be sensible to moderate or split this group
because the freedom of discussion makes it friendly, informative and not
starchy. The members of the ng I know personally are not the types to be
starchy. With a free ng, we all just have to try to use accurate headers
so that people like me who scan the headings don't miss anything. It
does not take long to download and scan/delete lots of messages; I often
have several hundred a day, even with checking it daily.
Thanks,
Justin Taberham.
In message <P9a0PGAb...@g6iqm.demon.co.uk>, Michael J Wooding
<mich...@g6iqm.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <352af773...@post.proweb.co.uk>, Brian L Dominic
><domin...@proweb.co.uk> writes
>>Seriously, I have sometimes had difficulty in keeping up with the
>>volume of postings, but I eventually catch up and if my "answers" have
>>been a bit late, so what??
>
>Know the feeling sometimes Brian - having been down south for a couple
>of days I came back tonight to 280 odd postings, and I don't think we
>have logged in yet tonight. Still I agree with you 100%
>
>Mike - off to 'sunny' Cromer at some ungodly hour of tomorrow morning!
>
--
Justin Taberham
Brett Laniosh
In article <352cbec3...@post.pipemedia.net>, Jeff Dennison
<URL:mailto:jeff-f...@pipemedia.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:14:16 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
> >This is NOT what I have been saying. In my original post I made NO
> >reference to eliminating any type of posting whatsoever. My idea was
> >to simply take existing postings and put them into categories. I
> >suggested three:
> > boats
> > waterways
> >and
> > misc
> >
> > ie NO ELIMINATING!
>
> Ok so I want to write a report about my journey in a boat which is
> horse drawn along a waterway that has just been restored with a lot
> of work having been done by WRG. Give an account of the objections
> that had to be overcome from the environmental lobby and tell you all
> about the duff (off topic) real ale pubs on the route that don't sell
> proper keg beer. Which one do I write to?
>
If you use the ml you would carry on as before. No difference. Your post would
if the gateway software was unchanged.
Again, I'll say my original idea was only for discussion. Pick holes please!
> Suggest you put that idea where the Sun doesn't shine. :-)
:-)
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
I got up one morning and couldn't find my socks, so I called Information.
She said, "Hello, Information." I said, "I can't find my socks." She said,
"They're behind the couch." And they were!
bpec...@cnt.org.uk
From: Greg Chapman <aaa...@home.cam.net.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:56:21 +0100
Subject: Re: Owls (and Herons)
Ho ho ho ho.
From the man who complains about off topic postings and chit chat and who
wants to set up a moderated newsgroup or mailing list to cut out anything
that is off topic - 35 lines of chat about birds (the dickey bird variety).
Not a mention of a boat, canal or river. Not even a bird bath to try and
get vaguely on topic!
This exampleis the very reason why I have been so against this whole
impetus to make changes to the way the group/list operates and behaves.
I can only describe it as double standards - any topic is fine as long as
it's what *I'm* interested in!
Regards
Bruce
Reply to bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk
Colin Shepherd
I'm not sure how many members of the list wrote to John Prescot soIi
thought a short precis of the answer from might be useful.
Apparently MEL are to be required to include at their expense
foundations for an aqueduct. MEL are also required to work with the
trust to facilitate the restoration and to waive any toll losses
resulting from restoration works. Not too good but perhaps MEL need
to be persuaded that it will be cheaper to put the navigable culverts
in now rather than lose revenue later. On a totally different note I
will be going along the Latton bypass tomorrow, where is the famous
culvert and is it obvious from the road ?.
**********************************
*
Colin Shepherd *
*
Finance Officer *
London Business School *
*
Tel (44) 0171 262 5050 *
Fax (44) 0171 724 7875 *
E-mail C.SHE...@lbs.lon.ac.uk *
**********************************
David Long
In message <ACC0...@europa.lbs.ac.uk>, Colin Shepherd
<cshe...@lbs.ac.uk> writes
>I'm not sure how many members of the list wrote to John Prescot soIi
>thought a short precis of the answer from might be useful.
>Apparently MEL are to be required to include at their expense
>foundations for an aqueduct. MEL are also required to work with the
>trust to facilitate the restoration and to waive any toll losses
>resulting from restoration works. Not too good but perhaps MEL need
>to be persuaded that it will be cheaper to put the navigable culverts
>in now rather than lose revenue later.
Has anyone got an address for them? If we tell them how wonderful they'd
look in the eyes of (some of) the green lobby, they might think it worth
some positive publicity, compared with the negative stuff roadbuilders
usually come in for.
--
David Long
Bruce Peckett
>In article <352973c8...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
><URL:mailto:bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> >I really don't have a clear view on the numbers one way or the other but
>> >I do feel that quotes of "vast majority" are totally uncooborated.
>> >
>> Like I said, prove me wrong! :-) Coroborated or not, it is my definete
>> impression that that is the case. I haven't time in my very busy life
>> to go back and count up. If your certain I'm wrong then, as I;ve
>> already said, go for the vote on a new newsgroup.
>
>A bit of a daft way to disuss things really. I've got fairies at the
>bottom of my garden. Prove me wrong Bruce.
>
Excuse me? Now that is getting silly. I made a comment, a valid one,
that *I* believe that the vast majority of the current members of this
group/list are happy with the way things are, This opinion is formed
from the contents of my mailbox and the responce to my and others
postings on this subject.
This impression, which I have made clear at all times is just that, an
impression, was challenged and described as uncorroborated. I agree,
it is. I don;t have a problem with that but it appeared that "someone"
else did. So I said "prove me wrong". So prove me wrong.
Fairys at the bottom of the garden is a daft way to discuss the future
of the newsgroup/mailing list if you ask me!
Peter A. Smith
In article <ACC0...@europa.lbs.ac.uk>, Colin Shepherd
<cshe...@lbs.ac.uk> writes
>On a totally different note I
>will be going along the Latton bypass tomorrow, where is the famous
>culvert and is it obvious from the road ?.
It is a couple of hundred yards east of the village - but that is not
much help as the village is now bypassed.
The only visible sign is a strip of concrete, about a foot wide,
sticking out from under the tarmac on the southern side of the road.
You will need a guide if you really want to find it!
The whole thing was filled with compacted gravel before the lid was put
on, and the canal line was infilled, so there is really nothing to see.
--
Peter A. Smith
And the people all cried "Never fear,
Here comes Smith, the Engineer".
Brett Laniosh
In article <352d60fe...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
<URL:mailto:bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:08:46 +0000, Brett Laniosh
> <br...@g4nzk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In article <352973c8...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bruce Peckett
> ><URL:mailto:bpec...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> >I really don't have a clear view on the numbers one way or the other but
> >> >I do feel that quotes of "vast majority" are totally uncooborated.
> >> >
> >> Like I said, prove me wrong! :-) Coroborated or not, it is my definete
> >> impression that that is the case. I haven't time in my very busy life
> >> to go back and count up. If your certain I'm wrong then, as I;ve
> >> already said, go for the vote on a new newsgroup.
> >
> >A bit of a daft way to disuss things really. I've got fairies at the
> >bottom of my garden. Prove me wrong Bruce.
> >
> Excuse me? Now that is getting silly. I made a comment, a valid one,
> that *I* believe that the vast majority of the current members of this
> group/list are happy with the way things are, This opinion is formed
> from the contents of my mailbox and the responce to my and others
> postings on this subject.
>
> This impression, which I have made clear at all times is just that, an
> impression, was challenged and described as uncorroborated. I agree,
> it is. I don;t have a problem with that but it appeared that "someone"
> else did. So I said "prove me wrong". So prove me wrong.
>
> Fairys at the bottom of the garden is a daft way to discuss the future
> of the newsgroup/mailing list if you ask me!
>
As I mentioned on the Admin list, I've been away for a week (where the
sun DID shine and there was NO rain) and I've just come back to this thread.
It looks as though this stuff has moved to the ADMIN list. Good job too IMHO!
--
Brett Laniosh Redditch & Bromsgrove CAMRA <http://www.g4nzk.demon.co.uk/>
I have the world's largest collection of seashells. I keep it on all the
beaches of the world...perhaps you've seen it.