BMC 1.5 Starting problems

[Mike Perkins]

My son recently did a head gasket change putting in new glow plugs and
he has a set of reconditioned injectors.

I wasn't aware of how important the atomiser washer may be and that it
should be changed every time an injector is refitted.

Nevertheless I would have thought the engine would normally come to life
with confirmed working glow plugs and a blow lamp up the intake (with
filter removed of course).

Would I normally expect to get the engine to show any signs of life? I
have compression, and removed two of the glow plugs to aid turning the
engine over at speed. The system has been primed, and has been
confirmed by having the injectors outside of the engine to confirm spray
and that both pump(s) and injectors are working.

A worrying thing is that my son found 3 atomiser washers at the bottom
of one of the injectors after removing the old ones?

My next job is get more atomiser washers and make some general
measurements of depth of injector in the head with and without atomiser
and copper washers, to make sure each is seating nicely.

Any thoughts before visiting the boat again would be appreciated.


--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

[canaldrifter]

I would suspect air lock. Even though you are getting fuel to the
injectors, it might not be sustained if there is a little air in the
injection pump. Bleed through again thoroughly a couple of times
following manufacturer's instructions.

Tone

[Mike Perkins]

That's why I tried the injectors outside of the block. It was a
possibility that bothered me.

Also when cranking a lot of diesel mist comes out of the glow-plug holes.

Many thanks, I will bear it in mind.

[~BD~]

Mike Perkins wrote:
> Also when cranking a lot of diesel mist comes out of the glow-plug holes.

Is this when a glow-plug is fitted *in* such holes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glowplug

--
Dave - "It is much better to be hated for what you are, than to be loved
for what you definitely are not." "Do unto others as you would have them
do unto you."

[Mike Perkins]

On 23/04/2012 17:27, ~BD~ wrote:
> Mike Perkins wrote:
>> Also when cranking a lot of diesel mist comes out of the glow-plug holes.
>
> Is this when a glow-plug is fitted *in* such holes?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glowplug
>

Yes, I removed a couple with the idea it might increase cranking revs.

[Mike Perkins]

On 23/04/2012 17:50, Mike Perkins wrote:
> On 23/04/2012 17:27, ~BD~ wrote:
>> Mike Perkins wrote:
>>> Also when cranking a lot of diesel mist comes out of the glow-plug
>>> holes.
>>
>> Is this when a glow-plug is fitted *in* such holes?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glowplug
>>
>
> Yes, I removed a couple with the idea it might increase cranking revs.
>

Ooops - no they weren't fitted when diesel mist came out of their holes.
Everything else looks a good seal with no obvious loss of compressed
gases etc.

[~BD~]

Mike Perkins wrote:
> On 23/04/2012 17:50, Mike Perkins wrote:
>> On 23/04/2012 17:27, ~BD~ wrote:
>>> Mike Perkins wrote:
>>>> Also when cranking a lot of diesel mist comes out of the glow-plug
>>>> holes.
>>>
>>> Is this when a glow-plug is fitted *in* such holes?
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glowplug
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I removed a couple with the idea it might increase cranking revs.
>>
>
> Ooops - no they weren't fitted when diesel mist came out of their holes.
> Everything else looks a good seal with no obvious loss of compressed
> gases etc.

:-)

Well, if there is fuel in the cylinders, and there is sufficient
compression, then the engine *must* start!

[Mike Perkins]

On 23/04/2012 18:24, ~BD~ wrote:
> Mike Perkins wrote:
>> On 23/04/2012 17:50, Mike Perkins wrote:
>>> On 23/04/2012 17:27, ~BD~ wrote:
>>>> Mike Perkins wrote:
>>>>> Also when cranking a lot of diesel mist comes out of the glow-plug
>>>>> holes.
>>>>
>>>> Is this when a glow-plug is fitted *in* such holes?
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glowplug
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I removed a couple with the idea it might increase cranking revs.
>>>
>>
>> Ooops - no they weren't fitted when diesel mist came out of their holes.
>> Everything else looks a good seal with no obvious loss of compressed
>> gases etc.
>
> :-)
>
> Well, if there is fuel in the cylinders, and there is sufficient
> compression, then the engine *must* start!
>

Must??????? My sentiments as well!!

[Tony Brooks]

"Mike Perkins" <sp...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:2MSdnR2Nr4KkqwjS...@bt.com...

Make sure those injectors really are BMC ones. Last year I saw a BMC with
the lands against which the injectors seal snapped off. Apparently the recon
injectors were NOT BMC ones, possibly out of a Perkins and the subtle
difference in length did the damage and made starting very difficult.

If the exhaust is not making clouds of white smoke (not a few wisps) during
cranking it is a fuel problem - or exceptionally low compressions.

Did he clean ALL the carbon off the piston crowns? If so he may have damaged
the seal formed by the carbon around the top of the piston.

Did he squirt a ring of oil around the piston to help make a seal before
fitting the head - not too much or it may hydraulic and end a connecting
rod.

Any chance of what lead upto the gasket change, it may have a bearing on the
present problem.


--
Tony Brooks

www.TB-Training.co.uk
Electrical & Mechanical Training
for ordinary boaters.

[Brian]

After serious thinking Mike Perkins wrote :

> On 23/04/2012 18:24, ~BD~ wrote:

>>
>> Well, if there is fuel in the cylinders, and there is sufficient
>> compression, then the engine *must* start!
>>
>
> Must??????? My sentiments as well!!

Not if you have cocked the injection timing up

[Mike Perkins]

The pump hasn't been moved, nor has the cam chain been changed.

[Mike Perkins]

That is something that has bothered me. I haven't seen any wisps coming
out of the exhaust, but I assumed that might be down to silencer design
and diesel condensing on the material internal surfaces of the box. I
had considered taking the exhaust pipe off the manifold to see if fine
white smoke comes out. It's not something I have yet done.

> Did he clean ALL the carbon off the piston crowns? If so he may have damaged
> the seal formed by the carbon around the top of the piston.

Don't know. I suspect not - he is aware of the issue.

> Did he squirt a ring of oil around the piston to help make a seal before
> fitting the head - not too much or it may hydraulic and end a connecting
> rod.

Doubt it very much. Not something I have even done except after a rebuild.

> Any chance of what lead upto the gasket change, it may have a bearing on the
> present problem.
>

I'll have to check!! There was a concern of problems in taking out the
old glow plugs with an expectation that they might shear.

Many thanks on your views.

[Tony Brooks]

No clouds of "smoke" says no fuel to me.

BMCs can be a right pig to bleed - especially the low pressure side.

1st bleed point the 5/8AF banjo bolt on the top of the filter,

Second bleed point the 8mm bleed screw in the side of the injector pump BODY
(ignore the one on the turret between the stop and throttle lever - that one
can mess up the idle damper if its fitted). Keep bleeding for AT LEAST 30
seconds AFTER you think that you have removed all the air.

As you have been spinning it over you will have to loosen all four injector
unions form the injectors and spin the engine on the starter until fuel
spits/drips from the loose unions. Then tighten and I bet it makes clouds of
smoke and start.

This assumes he has:-

1 Pushed the stop back in.

2. Turned the fuel tap back on off he turned it off to do the work.

3. At least 6 inches of fuel in the tank.

4. Has not had the top off the lift pump and lift it loose or with a damaged
soft washer.

[Dr Nick]

"Tony Brooks" <To...@tb-training.co.uk> writes:

> No clouds of "smoke" says no fuel to me.
>
> BMCs can be a right pig to bleed - especially the low pressure side.
>
> 1st bleed point the 5/8AF banjo bolt on the top of the filter,
>
> Second bleed point the 8mm bleed screw in the side of the injector pump BODY
> (ignore the one on the turret between the stop and throttle lever - that one
> can mess up the idle damper if its fitted). Keep bleeding for AT LEAST 30
> seconds AFTER you think that you have removed all the air.
>
> As you have been spinning it over you will have to loosen all four injector
> unions form the injectors and spin the engine on the starter until fuel
> spits/drips from the loose unions. Then tighten and I bet it makes clouds of
> smoke and start.

IIRC the official manual says do this - closing those injector unions
one at a time - while cranking it at half throttle or more.

I've had to do that once or twice and it's always worked pretty
spectacularly.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

[canaldrifter]

On 23 Apr, 20:39, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:

A long shot. Try taking off the air intake filter. If the engine has
been standing for a while the filter mesh can become fairly clogged
with emulsifying oily material. (Bin there. Had that in the past.)

If it's any consolation, this week my 2.5 took a great deal of
repetitive bleeding and cranking before I could get it to fire up
after its filters and oil change. It eventually started on day two
after an overnight battery charge!

Tone

[Mike Perkins]

On 23/04/2012 20:17, Tony Brooks wrote:
> No clouds of "smoke" says no fuel to me.
>
> BMCs can be a right pig to bleed - especially the low pressure side.
>
> 1st bleed point the 5/8AF banjo bolt on the top of the filter,

We have the banjos off the injectors to reduce the risk of damaging
these pipes. As a result the small banjo bolt on the filter has been
replaced by a schrader valve. It leaks a small amount of fuels and no
bubble have ever been seen here. There are 3 further unions + 1
blanking plug, I don't recall another banjo of anything like that size.

> Second bleed point the 8mm bleed screw in the side of the injector pump BODY
> (ignore the one on the turret between the stop and throttle lever - that one
> can mess up the idle damper if its fitted). Keep bleeding for AT LEAST 30
> seconds AFTER you think that you have removed all the air.

My son has done this though I haven't.

> As you have been spinning it over you will have to loosen all four injector
> unions form the injectors and spin the engine on the starter until fuel
> spits/drips from the loose unions. Then tighten and I bet it makes clouds of
> smoke and start.
>
> This assumes he has:-
>
> 1 Pushed the stop back in.

Yes - I can confirm.

> 2. Turned the fuel tap back on off he turned it off to do the work.

Yep, in fact the fuel level is such that the lift pump is hardly
necessary. Nevertheless when cranking and lift pump working more diesel
leaks out past the schrader valve.

> 3. At least 6 inches of fuel in the tank.

Yes

> 4. Has not had the top off the lift pump and lift it loose or with a damaged
> soft washer.
>

Nope.


Many thanks again for the ideas.

[Mike Perkins]

On 23/04/2012 21:58, canaldrifter wrote:
> On 23 Apr, 20:39, Dr Nick<3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>> "Tony Brooks"<T...@tb-training.co.uk> writes:
>>> No clouds of "smoke" says no fuel to me.
>>
>>> BMCs can be a right pig to bleed - especially the low pressure side.
>>
>>> 1st bleed point the 5/8AF banjo bolt on the top of the filter,
>>
>>> Second bleed point the 8mm bleed screw in the side of the injector pump BODY
>>> (ignore the one on the turret between the stop and throttle lever - that one
>>> can mess up the idle damper if its fitted). Keep bleeding for AT LEAST 30
>>> seconds AFTER you think that you have removed all the air.
>>
>>> As you have been spinning it over you will have to loosen all four injector
>>> unions form the injectors and spin the engine on the starter until fuel
>>> spits/drips from the loose unions. Then tighten and I bet it makes clouds of
>>> smoke and start.
>>
>> IIRC the official manual says do this - closing those injector unions
>> one at a time - while cranking it at half throttle or more.
>>
>> I've had to do that once or twice and it's always worked pretty
>> spectacularly.
>> --
>> Online waterways route planner |http://canalplan.eu
>> Plan trips, see photos, check facilities |http://canalplan.org.uk
>
> A long shot. Try taking off the air intake filter. If the engine has
> been standing for a while the filter mesh can become fairly clogged
> with emulsifying oily material. (Bin there. Had that in the past.)

I removed the filter prior to putting a blow-torch up the inlet on the
filter housing. Filter wasn't too bad.

> If it's any consolation, this week my 2.5 took a great deal of
> repetitive bleeding and cranking before I could get it to fire up
> after its filters and oil change. It eventually started on day two
> after an overnight battery charge!
>
> Tone

Oh dear!! This engine has done a lot more cranking to try and start it
than that!!

[canaldrifter]

On 24 Apr, 00:59, Mike Perkins <s...@spam.com> wrote:

>
> Oh dear!!  This engine has done a lot more cranking to try and start it
> than that!!
>
> --
> Mike Perkins
> Video Solutions Ltdwww.videosolutions.ltd.uk

I've no idea then if you have fuel, air and compression and your
timing is correct. After a head gasket change it may be worth checking
compression with a gauge on each cylinder?

I have to assume you've double checked tappet clearances? A gasket
change can affect them.

I dunno further. But I can sympathise if that's any help. (Probably
not!)

Tone

[Mike Perkins]

On 24/04/2012 01:43, canaldrifter wrote:
> On 24 Apr, 00:59, Mike Perkins<s...@spam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh dear!! This engine has done a lot more cranking to try and start it
>> than that!!
>>
>> --
>> Mike Perkins
>> Video Solutions Ltdwww.videosolutions.ltd.uk
>
> I've no idea then if you have fuel, air and compression and your
> timing is correct. After a head gasket change it may be worth checking
> compression with a gauge on each cylinder?

Just bought one with various adaptors, should be here tomorrow.

> I have to assume you've double checked tappet clearances? A gasket
> change can affect them.

Yep, my son has.

> I dunno further. But I can sympathise if that's any help. (Probably
> not!)
>

Sentiment noted!! Support appreciated.

There is a general consensus here it's a fuelling problem which needs a
further look.

Getting some more copper washers and crinkle washers today.

[Mike Perkins]

On 23/04/2012 19:23, Tony Brooks wrote:

It worries me that my son found 3 crinkle washers at the bottom of one
of the injectors. I don't have a crinkle washer to hand so don't know
the compressed to uncompressed length. With this knowledge I'll be
measuring old and new.

> If the exhaust is not making clouds of white smoke (not a few wisps) during
> cranking it is a fuel problem - or exceptionally low compressions.
>
> Did he clean ALL the carbon off the piston crowns? If so he may have damaged
> the seal formed by the carbon around the top of the piston.
>
> Did he squirt a ring of oil around the piston to help make a seal before
> fitting the head - not too much or it may hydraulic and end a connecting
> rod.
>
> Any chance of what lead upto the gasket change, it may have a bearing on the
> present problem.

The head gasket was changed 18 months ago after water was getting into
the oil, this time after gasses were emerging from the end of the block.
My son checked the head with a sheet of glass and didn't think it was
distorted.

>

Even if the crinkle washers weren't seating properly, would that prevent
starting, or just cause some unburnt fuel in the exhaust stream?

[Tony Brooks]

I have tried to answer your question and send a pohoto to teh group but the
newsgroup oosftwrae seems to have deleted the mail so plaese email me so I
can send you my reply and photo direct.

--
Tony Brooks

www.TB-Training.co.uk
Electrical & Mechanical Training
for ordinary boaters.

"Mike Perkins" <sp...@spam.com> wrote in message

news:pKudnTJQXfOI4gvS...@bt.com...

[Mike Perkins]

On 24/04/2012 11:58, Tony Brooks wrote:
> I have tried to answer your question and send a pohoto to teh group but the
> newsgroup oosftwrae seems to have deleted the mail so plaese email me so I
> can send you my reply and photo direct.
>
>

I've sent you a private email, many thanks.

Another note; 3 of the 4 old injectors had a sideways auxiliary port,
none of the 4 new ones do.

Many thanks for all your help.

[Mike Perkins]

Had another attempt at getting this engine started!

First of all I checked compressions, these ranged from 10 to 13 bar, 150
to 200 lbs/sq". This seemed worryingly low and could account for the
lack of smoke/vapour emitted when cranking.

Took all the injectors out and measure depths of the top and bottom
seats. Numbers 1 and 2 looked good with consistent sizes for a copper
washer and crinkle washer. The other 2 were deeper and the copper
contact seats in the head looked seriously chipped.

Decided to mix and match copper washers and in the end used a spacer
washer to add to the crinkle washer to ensure there was some compression
and distortion in one pot.

Reset valve clearances. These were a little tight but still with
clearance. I felt increased clearance was preferable to being a little
tight.

I added 5 cc of oil through the glow plug hole on no.1. This was based
on sufficient to fill the crown and hopefully with the turbulence in the
bore some would end up down the bores, This was on the basis that each
cylinder was a nominal 400cc, and after a 20:1 compression we would have
a max of 20cc left. Compression was checked again and this time it was
27 bar (400 lbs/sq"). I was becoming more confident.

5cc of oil was put into the remaining 3 bores and after 20 seconds of
pre-heat, it burst into life, well a bit raggedly, but it did get up to
speed.

The engine overheated and this was the original problem. I believe this
is down to a faulty pump, where I hope the impellers are of the pressed
steel type and have corroded to nothing. There is quite simply no
circulation into the keel cooling tanks. We did check obvious high
points to see if there were any airlocks.

The engine does miss until hot, and I'm not overly happy with the
situation. My son has said the bores had very little wear with no slop
in the pistons. Since the boat has done very little work the last year,
apart from battery charging, I'm wondering if the bores have glazed
hence the reduction in compression.

Many thanks for the ideas and direction on this group. I hope some of
this might be useful for others in the future.

[canaldrifter]

Overheating: possibly the raw water water pump impeller is.knackered.
Mine was due to the engine overheating. It is a vicious circle.

Tone

[Mike Perkins]

It's keel cooled! So hopefully no blockages!! But yes the water pump
is the prime suspect.

[canaldrifter]

My BMC 2.52 is cooled by a gear-driven raw water pump, water
circulating through keel cooling tanks, that transfer the engine
cooling effect through an engine-mounted header tank/heat exchanger,
so forgive the confusion.

But my overheating probs were definitely due to a pump impeller
failure, now cured. But the raw water impeller is rubber vaned, and
thus susceptible to overheating. I don't think that's the case with an
integral engine coolant pump, which is usually centrifugal. In fact
most failures in such are seals or bearings. Could it be the coolant
system needs flushing?

Tone

[Mike Perkins]

On 08/05/2012 22:30, canaldrifter wrote:
> On 8 May, 20:32, Mike Perkins<s...@spam.com> wrote:
>> On 08/05/2012 20:26, canaldrifter wrote:
>>
>>> Overheating: possibly the raw water water pump impeller is.knackered.
>>> Mine was due to the engine overheating. It is a vicious circle.
>>
>>> Tone
>>
>> It's keel cooled! So hopefully no blockages!! But yes the water pump
>> is the prime suspect.
>>
>

> My BMC 2.52 is cooled by a gear-driven raw water pump, water
> circulating through keel cooling tanks, that transfer the engine
> cooling effect through an engine-mounted header tank/heat exchanger,
> so forgive the confusion.
>
> But my overheating probs were definitely due to a pump impeller
> failure, now cured. But the raw water impeller is rubber vaned, and
> thus susceptible to overheating. I don't think that's the case with an
> integral engine coolant pump, which is usually centrifugal. In fact
> most failures in such are seals or bearings. Could it be the coolant
> system needs flushing?
>
> Tone

That sounds complicated. Why the heat exchanger? I'd be tempted to
dispense with it and couple the keel cooling tanks directly!!

The engine water pump vanes will be metallic but whether the vanes are
still there is the big question. If they are then I will have to give
the engine waterways and keel tanks a good flushing, but to be honest
I've never known an engine to be that badly blocked up.

[canaldrifter]

Tiz complex.

The engine was originally raw water cooled. When I came to fit it in
Dreamcatcher (keel cooled), piping the raw water circuit through the
keel cooling tanks was by far the easiest way of doing it. To remove
the heat exchanger and re-rig the system would have been far more
difficult and expensive in new parts, and still is to this day. I have
been tempted, I can assure you!

Tone