Is Central Heating Necessary?
Greg Chapman
have their own view.... So what's your experience?
I'm considering buying my first narrowboat. My budget certainly won't
stretch to a brand new all mod cons affair, so I am looking at second hand
boats and considering what ought to be on my "has to have" list.
Let's assume a typical narrowboat with a solid fuel stove at the front of
the saloon (front cabin) and a "standard" layout with corridor past the
toilet/shower and fixed bed in the aft cabin.
How far does the heat from a stove reach? Will the aft cabin be cosy in the
morning, assuming you can keep the stove alight all night, when there's ice
in the canal and snow on the towpath?
If the boat is only rarely used in such conditions would it be better to
accept a boat without central heating (in exchange for a better condition
fitout) and plan to fit an independent "caravan-style" heater in the aft
cabin.
Would a boat with an oil stove, rather than solid fuel, keep going better
through the night, so provide morning heat in a way that coal wouldn't?
Will having the stove nearer the mid point of the boat, rather than the
front, make it any warmer in the aft cabin?
Is retro-fitting of central heating so much of a pain/expense that it would
be better to dismiss boats without it, in case it turns out that you are
going to need central heating after all.
--
Greg Chapman
http://www.waterwaysguides.co.uk
for updates to Nicholson, Imray and Pearsons Guides - and lots more!
Kate
advice is to have two ways of doing the really important things - heat
being one of them, so I have a solid fuel stove + Alde boiler and CH.
In my seven years of living aboard I've found that you can't always
guess how a stove will behave - some at the front heat the back, some
in the middle don't... Several of my neighbours rave about those nifty
little stove top fans - won't work on mine! I think it is because the
chiminey is very central so I can't position it to get a heat
differential between the base and the top (thankfully I borrowed one to
try before buying).
And then of course the amount and type of insulation will affect it...
Good luck
Kate
Tony Brooks
"Greg Chapman" <greg.ea...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:442d127c$0$70299$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>I fear this is a "How long is a piece of string?" question and everyone
>will have their own view.... So what's your experience?
snip
> Is retro-fitting of central heating so much of a pain/expense that it
> would be better to dismiss boats without it, in case it turns out that you
> are going to need central heating after all.
>
FWIW
I have just pulled out an old Ellis gas boiler and gravity system pipework
and replaced it with a Alde. Everything bar the calorifier and the radiators
had to be replaced and with push fit pipework I found it easy. Once I had
decide where everything went I think it was probably three or four days
work. The hardest was cutting off the old Ellis flue top and cutting a new
hole & fitting the Alde flue.
What took most time over the winter was stripping the back cabin and
rebuilding it, but you would not do that I trust!
We now have a nice new Alde, and nice new Brunel stove and, at last, a
sitting room.
--
Tony Brooks
www.TB-Training.co.uk
Neil Corbett
The first thing to say is that a stove is a must, even if you have central
heating as well. Stoves wack out a lot of heat cheaply. nearly all boats
have stoves, but I wouldn't be without one, even if it had central heating
instead. On our boat (NB Herbie), which we haven't had long, as well as the
stove we have an eberspacher diesel heater driving 3 radiators, but in the
recent very cold month or so we haven't used the rads at all. Mind you, our
boat has its saloon in the middle and the bedroom at the front, and the
stove is at the forward end of the saloon, so not far from the bedroom.
Sometimes the stove has gone out overnight and it can be a bit chilly first
thing, but ours seems easy to get going and things warm up really quickly.
An ecofan seems to help distribute the warm air. I would think if you have
a longish boat with the stove at one end and the bed at the other, you might
find it cold at night in very cold weather.
Lots of stoves can be fitted with a back boiler to run the rads, but I can
see sense in having a separate heat source. I guess we'll use our rads for
a quick burst of heat on a chilly spring / autumn evening on an otherwise
warm day, because lighting the stove then would be too much.
Having said all that, when we were boat hunting, we didn't really see any
difference in price whether it had central heating or no. However, to have
it put in is not particularly cheap, so if you want it, get a boat with it
already in. Lots have.
Neil Corbett
Mike H
the front with an ecofan on top. No other heating. The ecofan makes all
the difference on our boat, really pushes the hot air down the length of
the boat.
Over the very cold xmas period we did burn a lot more coal and logs, but
were never cold (even when the flowing Llangollen canal froze in some
places).
You can keep the stove in all night, it just takes a bit of time to
learn your stove and fuel. Different coals work better or worse on
different stoves.
If you're thinking of living aboard consider the running costs. An Alde
heated hire boat can easily consume 3- 4 gas bottles in a week (at 16
ish quid a bottle !!). So we wouldn't touch an Alde with the proverbial
boat pole. Red diesel prices are also increasing towards road diesel
prices. Lots of debate in here about that and separate tanks etc. If the
boat is for occasional/weekend use then costs may not be so much of an
issue.
Also consider reliability. Alde's & Kabola's seem very reliable, however
certain other diesel heaters beginning with Eb... seem less so (ask a
hire boat mechanic how many heaters they have to fix in a season). If
your solid fuel stove goes out you can re-light it, if your fancy diesel
thing breaks can you fix it ? or will you need to call someone out ?
You asked for peoples' esperience, that's ours.
HTH
Mike and Hazel
nb Tess of Woottton
John Gwalter
"Greg Chapman" <greg.ea...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:442d127c$0$70299$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
was snow-bound at Newbury.
During this period I lived (temporarily) on the boat with only a solid fuel
stove at the very front for heating and had no trouble with it being too
cold in the back bedroom cabin (Ernest is 57ft, modern trad style).
I found that retro-fitting central heating was relatively easy and managed
to set it up so that the engine cooling also heats the radiators if
required.
--
JOhn
NB Ernest (that one, not the other one)
My indecision is final.
Phil R
"Mike H" <mi...@nospamthanks.net> wrote in message
news:11438133...@doris.uk.clara.net...
Excellent advice Mike. I agree 100%.
Phil
Martin Phillips
Chapman <greg.ea...@virgin.net> writes
>
>How far does the heat from a stove reach?
Our stove is about 3 m back from the front doors, and keeps the central
bit of the boat nicely warm - more so when we bring the Ecofan from home
to stand on top of it. I'm thinking of fitting a 12 V computer fan
behind the stove, as they draw very little power and might give more
blow for the money.
>Will the aft cabin be cosy in the
>morning, assuming you can keep the stove alight all night, when there's ice
>in the canal and snow on the towpath?
>
The back cabin is not hot, but it's not too bad. It depends more on with
whom you share it and whether you're wearing a flannelette nighty.
>If the boat is only rarely used in such conditions would it be better to
>accept a boat without central heating (in exchange for a better condition
>fitout) and plan to fit an independent "caravan-style" heater in the aft
>cabin.
>
If you mean a "catalytic" heater, avoid them at all costs. They give
huge amounts of condensation and seem dangerous.
>Would a boat with an oil stove, rather than solid fuel, keep going better
>through the night, so provide morning heat in a way that coal wouldn't?
>
I have no problems in keeping our squirrel going all night on a few nuts
of coal. Open the dampers in the morning and it soon blazes up. We used
to use wood, but coal is much easier to store and to buy. A 25 kg sack
lasts about 4 - 5 days of continuous burning. At current prices, just
over a quid a day isn't bad value for keeping warm
>Will having the stove nearer the mid point of the boat, rather than the
>front, make it any warmer in the aft cabin?
>
Probably.
>Is retro-fitting of central heating so much of a pain/expense that it would
>be better to dismiss boats without it, in case it turns out that you are
>going to need central heating after all.
I fitted central heating at the back end run from the Webasto which we
use for hot water when the engine hasn't been on. I've seldom turned it
on for more than an hour or so. It was easy to install using plastic
pipe and push-fit fittings for all but the visible bits. In retrospect,
I'd probably buy a back boiler with the stove and run a radiator near
the back end from it (are back-boilers available for retrofitting to a
squirrel?).
Actually, we seldom use the Webasto since having a new engine - that
gets enough hot water for a shower in not much over twenty minutes.
Wassail!
--
Martin E Phillips nb Boden, Splatt Bridge
http://www.g4cio.demon.co.uk martin/at/g4cio/dot/demon/dot/co/dot/uk
Homebrewing, black pudding, boats, morris dancing, ham radio and more!
The Gloucester-Sharpness canal page http://www.glos-sharpness.org.uk
Steve Davis
>> I fear this is a "How long is a piece of string?" question and everyone
>> will
>> have their own view.... So what's your experience?
>>
>> I'm considering buying my first narrowboat. My budget certainly won't
>> stretch to a brand new all mod cons affair, so I am looking at second
>> hand
>> boats and considering what ought to be on my "has to have" list.
>>
>> Let's assume a typical narrowboat with a solid fuel stove at the front of
>> the saloon (front cabin) and a "standard" layout with corridor past the
>> toilet/shower and fixed bed in the aft cabin.
>>
>> How far does the heat from a stove reach? Will the aft cabin be cosy in
>> the
>> morning, assuming you can keep the stove alight all night, when there's
>> ice
>> in the canal and snow on the towpath?
>>
>> If the boat is only rarely used in such conditions would it be better to
>> accept a boat without central heating (in exchange for a better condition
>> fitout) and plan to fit an independent "caravan-style" heater in the aft
>> cabin.
>>
"Kate" <kate....@phru.nhs.uk> added:
>
> My only advice is to have two ways of doing the really important things -
> heat
>being one of them, so I have a solid fuel stove + Alde boiler and CH.
>
> Good luck
> Kate
_______________________________________________________________
Greg,
Strongly agree with Kate about having two ways of doing the important
things!
We have lived on our 60' boat for seven years using a diesel Bubble stove
(4.5kW) for the saloon plus a Webasto Thermo 90 diesel c/h system (9kW) to
heat the whole boat. The 'Webasto' radiators supply heat mainly to the
bedroom and bathroom and provide background heating for the saloon. I have
adapted the Webasto system to use the waste heat from the keel cooling tank.
The Webasto system can be operated from the bed... wake up, switch on
heating, doze for 40 minutes and get up to a warm boat.
This setup has seen us nice and warm at temperatures down to -8 degrees C.
We do not run the heating at night but rely on a good quality duvet.
The Bubble and Webasto have been 100% reliable. I service the Webasto every
year (easy, but parts are expensive... around £100 per service). The Bubble
needs to be decoked every six weeks, also easy but dirty.
The rationale for all diesel heating was ready availability of fuel plus it
is generally cleaner than solid fuel.
You pays yer money and takes yer choice! As for me, if I was doing it all
again I would opt for the same system.
Hope this helps.
Steve Davis
P.S. to Martin... you must show me your nightie when we next meet!
Martin Phillips
<steve...@noreply.com> writes
>P.S. to Martin... you must show me your nightie when we next meet!
>
cross-dressing Tuesdays.
Wassail!
Wearing a dress on the Gloucester-Sharpness :-/
Adrian Stott
<greg.ea...@virgin.net> wrote:
>I fear this is a "How long is a piece of string?" question and everyone will
>have their own view.... So what's your experience?
>
>I'm considering buying my first narrowboat. My budget certainly won't
>stretch to a brand new all mod cons affair, so I am looking at second hand
>boats and considering what ought to be on my "has to have" list.
Good heating is definitely a "must have". It the difference between a
cosy place to come back to on a chilly evening after the pub, or to
retreat to when it is just to raw and damp to do any more steering or
lock wheeling, and a cold clammy place where you huddle dressed in
three sweaters.
>Let's assume a typical narrowboat with a solid fuel stove at the front of
>the saloon (front cabin) and a "standard" layout with corridor past the
>toilet/shower and fixed bed in the aft cabin.
>
>How far does the heat from a stove reach?
It depends on several things, including how long the boat is, where in
the length of the boat the stove is, how many doors are shut along the
length of the boat, what the temperature is outside, how good the
insulation is. etc. In particular, how much heat the stove is
putting out (which varies a lot over the periods between putting fuel
in. In my experience, a stove either makes the boat (or bits of it)
too hot or too cold.
> Will the aft cabin be cosy in the
>morning, assuming you can keep the stove alight all night, when there's ice
>in the canal and snow on the towpath?
Some stoves burn well all night (depending on the fuel), some don't.
As they can't adjust their heat output based on the temperature of the
accommodation, on a cold night yours may well either go out (because
you turned it up a bit and it used all its fuel) or will only take the
chill off in the stern cabin.
>If the boat is only rarely used in such conditions would it be better to
>accept a boat without central heating (in exchange for a better condition
>fitout) and plan to fit an independent "caravan-style" heater in the aft
>cabin.
I don't think so. A central heating oil stove may cost more than a
fireplace-in-a-box, but the plumbing is not that expensive. Overall,
I think central heating is much better value.
>Would a boat with an oil stove, rather than solid fuel, keep going better
>through the night, so provide morning heat in a way that coal wouldn't?
Yes, because you will have an oil tank that will keep the thing going
for months, reliably. Importantly, an oil stove can be controlled by
a room thermostat. Yes, I know that there are thermostatic air
controls available for some solid fuel stoves ...
Also, oil is much less hassle. No cumbersome bags to lug (and store),
no filthy hands each time you charge the stove, no soot, ash, and dust
inside your nice clean boat.
I concur with the comment to avoid a propane burner. I put an Alde in
the barge initially, and it ran well. However, it went through an 18
kg bottle a week. I sold it, and replaced it with a Kabola oil
burner. Mine is a drip-feed, but if I were doing it today I would use
a pressure-jet burner, with a tiny (100 W) inverter to run it, as they
are so much more efficient and controllable. However, I would avoid
the Webasto/Mikuni/Eberspacher ones, as friends who have them seem to
experience reliability problems and/or costly maintenance.
My drip-feed takes quite a while (couple of hours) to get the barge
warm from cold (e.g. freezing). A pressure jet burner would be much
quicker. OTOH, I once lived in a three-room cabin in Canada with a
wood-burner which could warm it from freezing in five minutes. Light
blue touch paper and ... It did use rather a lot of wood, though.
When I designed the layout of my barge, having had a large house in
Canada half of which was heated with a very efficient wood stove with
the most convenient wood storage arrangement I could imaging, I
decided not to have a stove in the barge at all. I haven't regretted
it.
>Will having the stove nearer the mid point of the boat, rather than the
>front, make it any warmer in the aft cabin?
Yes. But "warmer" and "warm" don't mean the same thing.
>Is retro-fitting of central heating so much of a pain/expense that it would
>be better to dismiss boats without it, in case it turns out that you are
>going to need central heating after all.
In some boats, yes. In some, no. Partly depends on how much of the
piping you want to hide.
So, central heating - yes. Solid fuel - no, because it is dirty, hard
to control, tends to go out, and the fuel is cumbersome. Domestic (as
opposed to vehicular) oil pressure jet - yes, because it is most
efficient and thus cheapest in the long run.
There you go.
Adrian
Adrian Stott
adr...@spam.co.uk
07956-299966
Adrian Stott
<mar...@nospam.com> wrote:
>I have no problems in keeping our squirrel going all night on a few nuts
Doesn't the chattering bother you?
Greg Chapman
"Greg Chapman" <greg.ea...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:442d127c$0$70299$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>will have their own view.... So what's your experience?
Thanks for everyone's contributions. It will be a week or so before I come
back with more considered response!
Martin Phillips
<adr...@spam.com> writes
>On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:11:40 +0100, Martin Phillips
><mar...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>I have no problems in keeping our squirrel going all night on a few nuts
>
>Doesn't the chattering bother you?
They only chatter when they get cold.
Tony Brooks
"Adrian Stott" <adr...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:grft22t9pvv55arda...@4ax.com...
snip
> Good heating is definitely a "must have". It the difference between a
> cosy place to come back to on a chilly evening after the pub, or to
> retreat to when it is just to raw and damp to do any more steering or
> lock wheeling, and a cold clammy place where you huddle dressed in
> three sweaters.
>
>>Let's assume a typical narrowboat with a solid fuel stove at the front of
>>the saloon (front cabin) and a "standard" layout with corridor past the
>>toilet/shower and fixed bed in the aft cabin.
>>
>>How far does the heat from a stove reach?
>
big snip
>
> I concur with the comment to avoid a propane burner. I put an Alde in
> the barge initially, and it ran well. However, it went through an 18
> kg bottle a week.
snip
> Adrian
I am not trying to sell Aldes, but since I put mine in it appears to have a
comparable consumption to the Ellis it replaced, but having a pump, heated
the boat more efficiently at lower settings.
The Alde has a room thermostat and this can be turned down (as can the
boiler stat) so when the solid fuel stove is burning the Alde will consume
little gas, however on that cold night when the stove goes out the Alde will
come in and maintain the temperature you set on the stat. This is why I have
just fitted both a stove and Alde.
It was a close run thing between a diesel stove and solid fuel, but three
things swayed me to solid fuel.
1. My feeling is that we will loose cheap diesel for boats and I resent
paying 98p a litre + for heating. I have no space for a separate heating
tank.
2. I have no wish to run a diesel line into the accommodation. It is all too
easy to get spills and weeps and I can do without the perfume of diesel
filling the boat - it smells and stains wood.
3. Pressure jet burners will demand an enhanced battery and possibly
charging system whilst pot burners appear to have problems when running on
low heat in that some carbon up. This may be caused by chimney height (or
lack of it). There would also appear to be a few disturbing reports of them
being instrumental in dangerous occurrences.
Having had solid fuel at home for the last 38 odd years I am not too
concerned over the dirt aspect of solid fuel and when we get to the boat
late on a Friday night a few seconds fires up the Alde whilst I play with
fire lighters and sticks for a while.
--
Tony Brooks
www.TB-Training.co.uk
Mike Stevens
> How far does the heat from a stove reach? Will the aft cabin be cosy
> in the morning, assuming you can keep the stove alight all night,
> when there's ice in the canal and snow on the towpath?
We've noticed a difference in moving up from a 48ft boat to a 60ft boat.
Both boats have Morso Squirrel stoves at the very front of the cabin. Both
are equipped with a secondary source of heating at the back end of the
cabin. In the shorter boiat, in fifteen years we only felt the need to use
the heater in the back cabin about twice, in weverely cold weather. In the
longer boat we need it several times a week in the weather we've had since
Christmas.
> Would a boat with an oil stove, rather than solid fuel, keep going
> better through the night, so provide morning heat in a way that coal
> wouldn't?
We donl;t have any trouble keeping our Squirrel soild fuel stobe alight
overnight.
>
> Will having the stove nearer the mid point of the boat, rather than
> the front, make it any warmer in the aft cabin?
I'd guess so.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
Steve Davis
> the Webasto/Mikuni/Eberspacher ones, as friends who have them seem to
> experience reliability problems and/or costly maintenance.
My experience of Webasto is that they are very reliable; other people I have
spoken to seem to share the same view.
Webasto's main market in the UK is with long distance trucks and coaches; I
tend to buy my spares from the nearest truck/coach dealer at the time. The
story I get from these dealers is that most will not touch a Webasto
installed in a boat because:
1. The root cause of failure is usually running the Webasto on a low
voltage. The boat owner will not accept the batteries are knackered and
refuses to pay; engineer departs in a huff. I can vouch for the low voltage
issue as I once left ours running by mistake and it flattened the batteries.
As a result it coked up and was difficult to start.
2. The boilers are installed in inaccessible places which makes it
impossible to service them properly. I can vouch for that as well! I have
adapted our setup so I can remove the boiler from the boat for servicing.
The boiler strikes me as a well engineered product that is easy to
disassemble/reassemble. I agree that spares are expensive: I change the
burner cartridge every year (£100) and the glow pin and flame detector every
two years (£60).
Summary of this: don't let your batteries drop below about 11.4V, service
the boiler regularly and Webasto will reliably keep you warm for many years.
Ours is 7 years old and still going well.
Note that I have no connection with Webasto other than owning a boat with
their boiler installed.
Steve Davis