Diesel electric canal boat.
Robert Oliver
canal boat that was being built. The theory was that the boat would run on
batteries most of the time but the diesel engine would cut in when there was
a greater demand than the batteries could cope with. The batteries could be
recharged from a shore line or by the onboard diesel. The engine would only
run at maximum efficiency when charging or demand was required and then shut
down.
Water heating was by surplus heat from engine and an immersion heater.
Cooking and heating by electricity.
Does anyone know anything about this canal boat?
Regards
Robert
Ron Jones
Sounds like a submarine... ;-) I've hired an electric boat, the battery
bank takes up a lot of room, and they don't last long. I guess we had less
than 8 hours before we flattened the beast - missed the winding 'ole and had
to go one to the next one, by the time we got back the whole thing died 2
miles from base, had to wait 1hr for the batteries to rest and recover
enough to limp home (in the dark, no lights - all from same bank - just
SWMBO at the sharp end with a torch...). Also as the power drops so does
the revs, so slowly you hardly notice the change in speed. Keep doing that
to batteries will almost certainly shorten their (already not very long)
life, and the replacement bill will probably not be offset by any savings.
I'm just waiting for the first nuclear powered narrowboat.... ;-)
--
--
Ron Jones
Don't repeat history, see unreported near misses in chemical lab/plant
at http://www.crhf.org.uk
Only two things are certain: The universe and human stupidity; and I'm
not certain about the universe. ~ Albert Einstein
Peter A Forbes
wrote:
Sounds great on paper, but like so many things in life, it will not return its
owners any great savings as it is an answer looking for a question.
Providing hybrid power of any kind is both expensive and inefficient, as the
control gear and systems in general are not well enough developed to be cheap
enough to make sense.
The basic NB propulsion system of an engine and gearbox is reliable and cheap
(relatively speaking) compared with such systems as use a combination engine and
battery.
Unless you have environmental credentials and can get finacial backing for the
extra costs, it is almost certainly a non-starter for regular use.
While on the subject, have a look at the "Zebra Battery" in Google.
Peter
Hils
>I'm just waiting for the first nuclear powered narrowboat.... ;-)
Anyone for a fuel cell?
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInformation/IndustryIn
formationExternal/NewsDisplayArticle/0,1602,5683,00.html
--
Hil
Will Chapman
> Some time ago I read an article in Waterways World about a diesel
> electric canal boat that was being built. The theory was that the
> boat would run on batteries most of the time but the diesel engine
When we were looking at boat builders...must be 5 years ago..I
rember being shown an electric boat that was being built at
Reading Marine...it was nearly ready but I haven't heard
anything about ot since. No doubt, however, Reading Marine
will know what became of it.
Cheers.......
Will Chapman
nb Quidditch
Steve Blinkhorn
: Some time ago I read an article in Waterways World about a diesel electric
I don't remember seeing the article, but as the owner of one of the
few diesel-electric boats around there are a few comments that might
be of interest.
I don't believe the fundamental premiss of a hybrid system as
described for a narrowboat, largely because the time it takes for a
diesel to start up and for the voltage from any kind of generator to
stabilise strikes me as excessive for the sorts of situations where
you need a burst of power - e.g. an emergency stop, where
regenerative braking is not a serious possibility. The lack of
charging points - and the sorts of charge rates you can achieve -
puts a limit on any battery-driven electric boat. Charging using an
on-board generator means running the engine probably for about as
long as the cruising time you would achieve. The limitation here is
on the rate at which you can stuff amps into batteries of any given
longevity and price. I'm happy to be proved wrong about any of these
things, BTW, but I went through this line of thought 10 years ago and
decided the downside risks were too great. The idea of running a
generator at peak efficiency for an hour and getting six hours of
cruising and 24 hours of domestic power off batteries as a result is
what we would all like, but I think reality gets in the way.
(Incidentally, as one of the side benefits of a diesel-electric system
can be a reduction in engine noise, with due attention to sound
dampening techniques, it may be worth pointing out that noise from
the rest of the drive train can become irritating.)
OTOH, I regard our direct diesel-electric installation as thoroughly
successful, though it was not cheap. We do cook with electricity,
and have air conditioning on board as well as an immersion heater.
Most of the gas-free benefits, including electric cooking, composting
loo and a few other bits and pieces, derive from having a substantial
bank of gel batteries (you can charge them fast) and a thumping
sinewave inverter-charger. We have 500Ah @ 24v DC, and would like
to have maybe 750Ah based on our experience to date. We find that a
couple of hours cruising a day is enough to recharge: our maximum
bulk charge rate is about 175A (24v, remember).
As regards the drive train, based on what my meters say, I would
guess that under way at normal speed we use around 3 or 4 kW. Our
motor is rated at 15kW, and in a real slam-on-the-brakes situation we
*might* go as high as 12kW, but we can stop in under half a boat
length (it's a 60' boat). The advice we were given - which I think
is broadly accurate - is that we should design for 20hp at the prop.
We get the benefit of a 3-phase 5.5kW bowthruster as a bit of a bonus
from all of this.
If you translate all of this into DC battery-driven terms, you're
looking at 150A @ 24v or 75A @ 48v (approximately - this is back-of-
envelope stuff) for cruising, and maybe two or three times as much at
peak load for an emergency stop, to get equivalent performance.
That looks like a lot of batteries, or not a lot of time cruising, and
lots of time spent charging to me. Maybe we're over-powered.
We find that our genset is very tolerant of unbalanced loads: at the
start of cruising there's whatever the motor demands, which is the
balanced bit of the load, plus say 17A for battery charging on one
phase and 10A for the immersion heater on another. Then the
immersion heater cuts out. The difference in voltage on each phase
barely registers.
Finally, I can imagine a situation in which I might piggy-back a DC
motor on top of the AC motor, use some of the spare space under the
deckboards for batteries, charge them while under way with the genset
running (lots of spare capacity for that) and get a really low noise
level, but that would be to sneak up even more silently on fishermen
and use the electric underwater shears at the bow to cut through
their lines before they even know we're there...
--
Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
Steve Blinkhorn
: Ron Jones writes
: >I'm just waiting for the first nuclear powered narrowboat.... ;-)
: Anyone for a fuel cell?
Still one for a watching brief, I think. But I did consider the
auxiliary powerplant from a Boeing 727 to be installed in a very short
butty (to avoid vibration and noise being transmitted through the
hull) to provide an electric drive. But they come with an ex-PanAm
flight attendant attached, which put me off as you can imagine.
--
Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
JP
"Steve Blinkhorn" <st...@newsole.prd.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11f400b...@corp.supernews.com...
Does that come with its own make-up bag and trowel too?
Robert
Steve said: Incidentally, as one of the side benefits of a
diesel-electric system
can be a reduction in engine noise, with due attention to sound
dampening techniques, it may be worth pointing out that noise from
the rest of the drive train can become irritating.
Diesel electric is used for some marine survey boats where acoustic
quietness is needed. The engines can be mounted compliantly so as not
to conduct vibration ot the hull.
Robert
Steve Blinkhorn
: Diesel electric is used for some marine survey boats where acoustic
: quietness is needed. The engines can be mounted compliantly so as not
: to conduct vibration ot the hull.
It's not the engine noise, it's the sound of the prop and the drive
shaft, would you believe it, that can irritate once you've got the
engine noise sufficiently reduced. This may seem unreasonably
pernickity to many, but the irritation value of some sounds is not a
function of amplitude. Personally, I think there's something about
canal water, but I find I hear three distinct components: there's the
3,000 rpm of the engine, though what you hear is mostly
higher-frequency components; there's the swishing sound from the
water separator that tells me the cooling/exhaust water is doing what
it should; and then there's the prop-speed related noise. What I
*don't* hear, that some engineers have told me they can, is noise
from the electric motor relating to the frequency of its supply.
How much of this is really subjective, and how much common to us all,
I haven't been able to work out. But, particularly given other
recent discussions here, I think it's worth noting that getting
engine noise right down can be the beginning of a spiral. I find
that the sound from the engines of most oncoming boats drowns mine
before our bows have crossed, which probably means I'm utterly
spoilt. But the quest for the utterly silent 60' narrowboat is
probably doomed.
--
Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
Alan N Estherby
"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pcd4f15an5j923kph...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:29:28 -0000, Steve Blinkhorn
> <st...@newsole.prd.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Robert <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >: Diesel electric is used for some marine survey boats where acoustic
> >: quietness is needed. The engines can be mounted compliantly so as not
> >: to conduct vibration ot the hull.
> >
> >It's not the engine noise, it's the sound of the prop and the drive
> >shaft, would you believe it, that can irritate once you've got the
> >engine noise sufficiently reduced.
>
> they spent billions of dollars on designing quiet running props.
>
>
> --
> Martin
I think the billions spent of quiet running had far more to do with trying
to ensure their submarines could not be heard by "the enemy" than any
consideration for the sleep patterns of their own sailors!
Alan
Ron Jones
Which reminds that the most efficient engine is proably the gas turbine,
couple a small one of those with a generator, and you're in businness (don't
even think about coupling the turbine to the prop, they rev up and down
*very* slowly - much better at constant speed)
Simon Dawson
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:12:06 GMT, "Alan N Estherby"
> <alan.e...@notinthisworld.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >news:pcd4f15an5j923kph...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:29:28 -0000, Steve Blinkhorn
> >> <st...@newsole.prd.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Robert <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >: Diesel electric is used for some marine survey boats where acoustic
> >> >: quietness is needed. The engines can be mounted compliantly so as
not
> >> >: to conduct vibration ot the hull.
> >> >
> >> >It's not the engine noise, it's the sound of the prop and the drive
> >> >shaft, would you believe it, that can irritate once you've got the
> >> >engine noise sufficiently reduced.
> >>
> >> It drove nuclear submariners nuts, they just couldn't sleep. It's why
> >> they spent billions of dollars on designing quiet running props.
>
trying
> >to ensure their submarines could not be heard by "the enemy" than any
> >consideration for the sleep patterns of their own sailors!
>
> --
> Martin
As an ex submariner perhaps I can point out that INSIDE a nuclear submarine
the only sound you can hear is the sound of the forced ventilation - a noise
you get so used to that it is only when it stops that you wake up and panic
and wonder what particular bit of the reactor has broken causing loss of
electrical generation.
By the way - you would not want a silent propeller on a NB. They are great
going forward but have virtually no effect going astern whatever.
Thanks for the low-down on a diesel electric narrowboat Steve. I have worked
in diesel electric subs too - and it is a nice combination. Instant silent
power when you need it, but a robust generator set for charging. I agree
that it is not actually cost effective, but I spend lots of time day
dreaming on the back-end of Bow about what I would design if I won the
lottery, and a DE narrowboat is attractive, although I might go for a fuel
cell rather than a diesel, just for fun.
Simon
Pyromancer
Oliver <robert...@virgin.net> gently breathed:
Thanks for an interesting thread!
While cruising the Broads as a lad, I used to wonder about the
practicality of buying an ex-hire cruiser, removing the diesel engine,
installing many batteries and electric propulsion, with charging from
cabin-top-mounted wind turbines (we sometimes saw these on moored
boats), plus covering the cabin top with solar cells, the idea being the
boat would charge itself while moored up during the week and then be
available for cruising at weekends. I imagined the reduction in solar
charge available in winter would be off-set by more charge from the wind
generators. This would also mean the automatic bilge pumps, etc, would
always have power available.
If extra power was needed above what could be stored, I'd have added an
auxiliary steam engine. This was partly survivalist day-dreaming,
wanting something non-oil-dependent for use after the fall of
civilisation - the steamer could burn anything that happened to be
available.
Given the battery technology of 20 years ago this probably was a total
non-starter, but would it be possible nowadays, for a boat mainly used
only at weekends?
--
- Pyromancer Stormshadow.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk <-- Electronic Metal!
http://www.revival.stormshadow.com <-- The Gothic Revival.
Greg Chapman
"Pyromancer" <pyrom...@beeching.stormshadow.com> wrote in message
news:7k6BL7Fs...@nemesis.as15758.net...
> While cruising the Broads as a lad, I used to wonder about the
> practicality of buying an ex-hire cruiser, removing the diesel engine,
> installing many batteries and electric propulsion, with charging from
> cabin-top-mounted wind turbines (we sometimes saw these on moored
> boats), plus covering the cabin top with solar cells, the idea being the
> boat would charge itself while moored up during the week and then be
> available for cruising at weekends. I imagined the reduction in solar
> charge available in winter would be off-set by more charge from the wind
> generators. This would also mean the automatic bilge pumps, etc, would
> always have power available.
>
> non-starter, but would it be possible nowadays, for a boat mainly used
> only at weekends?
Works for me (with a little added wind power for propulsion! :-) See:
http://www.seahawk17.plus.com/gallery/hickling07.htm
--
Greg Chapman
http://www.seahawk17.plus.com
Celebrating the SeaHawk
JP
"Ron Jones" <r...@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
news:42f26594$0$13703$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> Steve Blinkhorn wrote:
>> Hils <hils...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Ron Jones writes
>>
>>>> I'm just waiting for the first nuclear powered narrowboat.... ;-)
>>
>>> Anyone for a fuel cell?
>>
>> Still one for a watching brief, I think. But I did consider the
>> auxiliary powerplant from a Boeing 727 to be installed in a very short
>> butty (to avoid vibration and noise being transmitted through the
>> hull) to provide an electric drive. But they come with an ex-PanAm
>> flight attendant attached, which put me off as you can imagine.
>
> Which reminds that the most efficient engine is proably the gas turbine,
> couple a small one of those with a generator, and you're in businness
> (don't even think about coupling the turbine to the prop, they rev up and
> down *very* slowly - much better at constant speed)
>
Ron Jones
No one mentioned "noise", I though we were discussing *efficiency*. I guess
it might whine a bit.... ;-)
JP
> JP wrote:
>> "Ron Jones" <r...@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
>> news:42f26594$0$13703$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>> Steve Blinkhorn wrote:
>>>> Hils <hils...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Ron Jones writes
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm just waiting for the first nuclear powered narrowboat.... ;-)
>>>>
>>>>> Anyone for a fuel cell?
>>>>
>>>> Still one for a watching brief, I think. But I did consider the
>>>> auxiliary powerplant from a Boeing 727 to be installed in a very
>>>> short butty (to avoid vibration and noise being transmitted through
>>>> the hull) to provide an electric drive. But they come with an
>>>> ex-PanAm flight attendant attached, which put me off as you can
>>>> imagine.
>>>
>>> Which reminds that the most efficient engine is proably the gas
>>> turbine, couple a small one of those with a generator, and you're in
>>> businness (don't even think about coupling the turbine to the prop,
>>> they rev up and down *very* slowly - much better at constant speed)
>>>
>> How quiet would that be?
>
> No one mentioned "noise", I though we were discussing *efficiency*. I
> guess it might whine a bit.... ;-)
Only about 6 posters have mentioned noise
keep up at the back
Steve Blinkhorn
: "Ron Jones" <r...@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
: news:42f7b005$0$13699$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
The auxiliary powerplant I was talking about is there precisely to
provide electrical power - but IIRC it generates 300Hz AC, so it
would need some fancy electronics for domestic power as well as for
motive power. My diesel-electric system has fancy electronics -
well, not all that fancy - to control the drive motor, but nice clean
real 240v 50Hz AC (times 3 phases) for domestics with the genset
running and synthesised sinewave from the inverter when it's not.
Of course, I would very much like to go down the fuel cell route when
it becomes really feasible for 17 tons of boat, but for now I think
we've learnt (actually worked out originally on the back of an
envelope from first principles and equations) what it takes in terms
of electrical power to move a boat through the water and to run a
gas-free, all-electric installation with all the bells and whistles
we could think of. I think you can separate motive power and
domestic power considerations, if you can hang enough generator
capacity onto a conventional engine installation, given a big enough
and robust enough inverter-charger.
A lot of what we were told when we were designing, and a lot of the
teeth-sucking, was misdirected, over-pessimistic and just plain
wrong, particularly when it came to the domestic side of things.
OTOH I think in principle it's important to over-engineer when you're
doing something a bit novel - don't calculate what you think you can
get away with, give yourself a good margin.
A final thought. Probably the single most important decision we
made was to use gel batteries, because of the high rate of charge
they will accept. So we only rarely run the generator just to
charge the batteries. I'm not sure it is widely enough realised
what the range of permissible charge rates is when boat electrics
come under discussion.
--
Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
Ian W
"Robert Oliver" <robert...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:SO2Ie.3077$0g7...@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
It may be the one currently on sale with ABNB (advertised in latest
WW, p156)?
70ft Reeves/Reading Marine trad, 2002, 945AH battery bank, 4h recharge
time from 6kVA
diesel generator.
Cheers,
Ian
Ron Jones
> JP <no...@noone.com> wrote:
>
>> "Ron Jones" <r...@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
>> news:42f7b005$0$13699$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>> JP wrote:
>>>> "Ron Jones" <r...@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:42f26594$0$13703$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>>>> Steve Blinkhorn wrote:
>>>>>> Hils <hils...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Ron Jones writes
> get away with, give yourself a good margin.
>
> A final thought. Probably the single most important decision we
> made was to use gel batteries, because of the high rate of charge
> they will accept. So we only rarely run the generator just to
> charge the batteries. I'm not sure it is widely enough realised
> what the range of permissible charge rates is when boat electrics
> come under discussion.
Well you can charge as fast as you like - providing you don't care about
battery life! That's just yet another minefield. Personally I try to keep
down to 10% charge rate (40A into 400AH) for "leisure" batteries. Any more
tends to make heat and a danger of plate damage.
Peter A Forbes
>
>Well you can charge as fast as you like - providing you don't care about
>battery life! That's just yet another minefield. Personally I try to keep
>down to 10% charge rate (40A into 400AH) for "leisure" batteries. Any more
>tends to make heat and a danger of plate damage.
>
>--
The impedance of the alternator wiring tends to limit anything too high, and a
reasonably discharged battery impedance will be higher at the start of charge
compared with the middle, but a battery in decent nick should be able to accept
0.5C (C = nominal rated capacity) charge rate without any problem.
Nicads are much more amenable, taking up to 5C charge rate due to their lower
internal impedance.
Something which doesn't get mentioned on here very often is the rated capacity
and the times it is measured against.
Lead-Acid battery capacity commercially is normally taken at the 20hour rate,
with the 10hour rate available for fast discharge types.
Nicads are nearly always 5hour rated.
There is a big difference in capacity between:
40AH at the 20hour rate
40AH at the 10hour rate
40AH at the 5hour rate
40AH at the 1hour rate (it does exist!)
Always check the figures before you buy, and ask for them if they are not
available.
Peter
brianH
> JP wrote:
>> "Ron Jones" <r...@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
>> news:42f26594$0$13703$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>> Steve Blinkhorn wrote:
>>>> Hils <hils...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Ron Jones writes
>>>
>>> Which reminds that the most efficient engine is proably the gas
>>> turbine, couple a small one of those with a generator, and you're in
>>> businness (don't even think about coupling the turbine to the prop,
>>> they rev up and down *very* slowly - much better at constant speed)
>>>
>> How quiet would that be?
>
> No one mentioned "noise", I though we were discussing *efficiency*. I
> guess it might whine a bit.... ;-)
>
Didn't they do some experiments some time ago fitting them to lorries.
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants>
Adrian Stott
>provide electrical power - but IIRC it generates 300Hz AC, so it
>would need some fancy electronics for domestic power as well as for
>motive power. My diesel-electric system has fancy electronics -
>well, not all that fancy - to control the drive motor, but nice clean
>real 240v 50Hz AC (times 3 phases) for domestics with the genset
>running and synthesised sinewave from the inverter when it's not.
I've come in a bit late for this, having must returned from some
boating in France.
However, has anyone mentioned "The DC Concept", as promoted by Reinout
Vader of Victron Energy?
Basically, this involves having a small, silent generator running for
quite long hours, continually charging a large battery. Power is used
via an inverter, which first draws from the generator and then adds
power from the battery to this if the immediate (short term) load is
higher than that which the generator can meet.
A nice addition to this idea is that the battery could be used to
power an electric propulsion motor. Not for unlimited hours, but
quite possibly enough for average daily cruising, as an inland vessel
under way consumes much less energy than you might think, and the
battery would be able to supply plenty of instand power for a short
period if an emergency stop is needed. The generator could be run
while cruising too, if one wanted, to increase the daily cruising
hours available.
Vader uses the Whispergen as his generator, but these are (still)
expensive and not of proved durability. A conventional small and
well-cocooned generator would do just fine as an alternative, I think.
This is covered by the booklet "Electricity on Board", availably from
www.victronengery.com
Worth a look, I think.
>A final thought. Probably the single most important decision we
>made was to use gel batteries, because of the high rate of charge
>they will accept. So we only rarely run the generator just to
>charge the batteries. I'm not sure it is widely enough realised
>what the range of permissible charge rates is when boat electrics
>come under discussion.
I avoid these. Overcharge them once, and they are dead. The gel
dries out, and can't be re-moistened. I use conventional 2 V traction
cells (as found in fork lifts), and religiously keep them charged and
full of electrolyte. My last set lasted 15 years.
If you want really high charge acceptance rates, consider NiCads.
They can accept very high charging current. They don't mind being
left uncharged, or partly charged, either. There are some technical
problems, and they are so expensive new you probably would buy used
ones, but since they last 20 or 30 years that is feasible.
Adrian
Paul E. Bennett
> Vader uses the Whispergen as his generator, but these are (still)
> expensive and not of proved durability. A conventional small and
> well-cocooned generator would do just fine as an alternative, I think.
>
> This is covered by the booklet "Electricity on Board", availably from
> www.victronengery.com
>
> Worth a look, I think.
It would be if their site wasn't off-line at present. Just tried them from
your link and from Google but they are timing out. Let's hope it is a mere
minor technical problem.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://p...@amleth.demon.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095
Going Forth Safely ....EBA. http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett
Paul E. Bennett wrote:
> Adrian Stott wrote:
>
>> Vader uses the Whispergen as his generator, but these are (still)
>> expensive and not of proved durability. A conventional small and
>> well-cocooned generator would do just fine as an alternative, I think.
>>
>> This is covered by the booklet "Electricity on Board", availably from
>> www.victronengery.com
>>
>> Worth a look, I think.
>
> It would be if their site wasn't off-line at present. Just tried them from
> your link and from Google but they are timing out. Let's hope it is a mere
> minor technical problem.
It was. Their site came back on about 10 minutes after first try.
Peter Stockdale
"Paul E. Bennett" <p...@amleth.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ddce6c$39$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> <posted & mailed>
>
> Paul E. Bennett wrote:
>
>>>
>>> This is covered by the booklet "Electricity on Board", availably from
>>> www.victronengery.com
>>>
>>> Worth a look, I think.
>>
>> It would be if their site wasn't off-line at present. Just tried them
>> from
>> your link and from Google but they are timing out. Let's hope it is a
>> mere
>> minor technical problem.
>
> It was. Their site came back on about 10 minutes after first try.
>
>
> --
> ********************************************************************
> Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://p...@amleth.demon.co.uk>
For some reason the appears to need a / at the end to work.
Try http://www.victronenergy.com/
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com
Paul E. Bennett
>> It was. Their site came back on about 10 minutes after first try.
>
> For some reason the appears to need a / at the end to work.
> Try http://www.victronenergy.com/
I had also tried from the Google site and achieved the same result. I tried
again 10 minutes later, from Google, and it came up, so they obviously had
a short term glitch. You are, however, correct, in that Adrian's provided
link does not work so others should use the one given by Pete.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://p...@amleth.demon.co.uk>
Steve Blinkhorn
: >A final thought. Probably the single most important decision we
: >made was to use gel batteries, because of the high rate of charge
: >they will accept. So we only rarely run the generator just to
: >charge the batteries. I'm not sure it is widely enough realised
: >what the range of permissible charge rates is when boat electrics
: >come under discussion.
: I avoid these. Overcharge them once, and they are dead. The gel
: dries out, and can't be re-moistened. I use conventional 2 V traction
: cells (as found in fork lifts), and religiously keep them charged and
: full of electrolyte. My last set lasted 15 years.
So don't overcharge them ;-) Our gels are now 9 years old and,
apparently still in good heart, but we do use a three-stage charging
regime and exactly the voltages specified by the battery manufacturer.
--
Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
Ron Jones
All sites do (IIRC) nned a trainling slash, if one does not reference an
index page. If you don't add the "/" the the PC has to make two calls to
the server, rather than one. So always add the slash and save time..
Jonathan Hodgson
> Lead-Acid battery capacity commercially is normally taken at the 20hour rate,
> with the 10hour rate available for fast discharge types.
>
> Nicads are nearly always 5hour rated.
>
> There is a big difference in capacity between:
>
> 40AH at the 20hour rate
> 40AH at the 10hour rate
> 40AH at the 5hour rate
> 40AH at the 1hour rate (it does exist!)
We electric model car racers measure our nicad and Ni-MH cells at about
the 6 minute rate! :-D (usually 30A test discharge, with recent/current
cells being from 2.4 to 3.8 Ah nominal)
We never charge them much over 2C, though...
Jonny
Peter Headland
electric-only capability (maybe 1 hour at modest cruising pace). The
idea was to be able to work through locks and tunnels without having to
breath diesel fumes. Plus it would be nice to be able to "run silent"
now and again on a peaceful evening in a nice rural length.
Noting the issues with noise from an electric drivetrain, may I be the
first to propose a diesel-electric-hydraulic arrangement? :-)
--
Peter Headland
Peter A Forbes
Really, diesels are pretty clean, it's just that the older engines tend to be
smokers and oil ejectors, so the whole process is pretty grimy.
An engine working against a decent load with good injectors etc shouldn't
produce that much in the way of rubbish in the exhaust, but there is always the
'diesel smell' which you cannot do a lot about.
Our newest couple of vans have had cat's fitted which reduce the emissions and
make for a very clean exhaust, pity they cannot do that for 40-year old engines!
Peter
Peter A Forbes
>the 6 minute rate! :-D (usually 30A test discharge, with recent/current
>cells being from 2.4 to 3.8 Ah nominal)
>
>We never charge them much over 2C, though...
>
>Jonny
Yes, I can remember someone at a model meet charging an F-cell pack from a car
battery quite casually....
We are just looking at a 64-cell 3A NiMh charger for an application, the battery
goes up to over 90 volts (64 X 1.85V pc) and is being charged at 1C, although
various safety measures are being incorporated!
Peter
David Long
Peter Headland <PHea...@excite.com> writes
>My ambition has always been to have a hybrid D-E setup with limited
>electric-only capability (maybe 1 hour at modest cruising pace). The
>idea was to be able to work through locks and tunnels without having to
>breath diesel fumes.
You'd just about get through the 3 mile long Mauvages Tunnel on the
Marne au Rhin at that rate... following the electric tug that's supposed
to pull you through. Well, it will do, if you ask nicely, or it's first
thing in the morning and they're trying very hard to stick to the rules.
--
David Long
Sankey Canal Restoration Society http://www.scars.org.uk/
St. Mary's http://www.geocities.com/andrew_fishburn/stmary1.html
http://www.scars.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/webcam/
David Long
<die...@easynet.co.uk> writes
Sounds lovely, too.
Steve Blinkhorn
: My ambition has always been to have a hybrid D-E setup with limited
: electric-only capability (maybe 1 hour at modest cruising pace). The
: idea was to be able to work through locks and tunnels without having to
: breath diesel fumes. Plus it would be nice to be able to "run silent"
: now and again on a peaceful evening in a nice rural length.
One thing I always found surprising was the tendency for exhaust
outlets to be on the left, which worsens the problem of smoke in
locks. So I put mine on the right.
: Noting the issues with noise from an electric drivetrain, may I be the
: first to propose a diesel-electric-hydraulic arrangement? :-)
Actually it isn't the electric bit of the drivetrain, rather
everything from the thrust plate sternwards that you hear (yes I also
have an AquaDrive). So I suspect the hydraulic bit wouldn't help.
But we hear little on urw about successful hydraulic installations,
and I have always wondered why. I have come across a couple of boats
whose hydraulics were problematic and didn't live up to expectation -
but then the first diesel-electric boat I came across suffered from
insufficient power for simultaneous drive and domestic consumption.
--
Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
Jeremy Nunns
<br...@notharnser.fsbusiness.co.uuk> writes
And wasn't there an experimental railway locomotive?
(or is my memory playing tricks?)
--
Jeremy Nunns
Cambridge
Remove Chinese Ship to Reply
Paul Burke
> And wasn't there an experimental railway locomotive?
> (or is my memory playing tricks?)
>
There were two on the Great Western just after the war, they lasted only
until the mid 50s I think.
There was another called GT3 in the late 50s, that one looked like a
streamlined steam loco. <http://tinyurl.com/dhk8o>
Also the APT tilting- train prototype was gas turbine IIRC.
The Americans used them quite a lot.
Paul Burke
Brian Dominic
<Jer...@junk.yours.demon.co.uk> picked up their glass of wine, sat
back and said:
>>
>>Didn't they do some experiments some time ago fitting them to lorries.
>>
>
>And wasn't there an experimental railway locomotive?
>(or is my memory playing tricks?)
There were two - in 1948..................................
Brian L Dominic
Web Sites:
Canals: http://www.brianscanalpages.co.uk
Friends of the Cromford Canal: http://www.cromfordcanal.org.uk
Mid-Derbyshire Light Railway: http://www.mdlr.co.uk
Newsgroup readers should note that the reply-to address is NOT read:
To email me, please send to brian(dot)dominic(at)tiscali(dot)co(dot)uk
brianH
"Steve Blinkhorn" <st...@newsole.prd.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11fottm...@corp.supernews.com...
> Peter Headland <PHea...@excite.com> wrote:
> But we hear little on urw about successful hydraulic installations,
> and I have always wondered why.
I'm happy with mine or is that the kiss of death
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants> --
> Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
Steve Blinkhorn
: "Steve Blinkhorn" <st...@newsole.prd.co.uk> wrote in message
: news:11fottm...@corp.supernews.com...
: > Peter Headland <PHea...@excite.com> wrote:
: > But we hear little on urw about successful hydraulic installations,
: > and I have always wondered why.
: I'm happy with mine or is that the kiss of death
I just imagine that there are lurkers who would love to know about
successful less-than-conventional installations, and don't know quite
how to ask. I didn't go hydraulic partly for sheer lack of available
reliable information, so I stuck with technology I understand. I
suspect that there is a body of knowledge latent amongst urw
contributors that could be combined in interesting ways by
enterprising prospective owners...
--
Steve Blinkhorn <st...@prd.co.uk>
brianH
Take a look at
http://www.harnser.info/build%20specification%20harnser.htm
Paul E. Bennett
Ask Andy Greener. Whisper is diesel/hydraulic I believe.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://p...@amleth.demon.co.uk>
Simon Dawson
"Brian Dominic" <nbru...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:ctipf15npk73t8a5f...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:04:01 +0100, Jeremy Nunns
> <Jer...@junk.yours.demon.co.uk> picked up their glass of wine, sat
> back and said:
>
>
> >>
> >>Didn't they do some experiments some time ago fitting them to lorries.
> >>
> >
> >And wasn't there an experimental railway locomotive?
> >(or is my memory playing tricks?)
>
and cars
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/8/newsid_2516000/2516271.stm
Simon
AP BROOKS
"Peter A Forbes" <die...@easynet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8rbnf1p0t2d658ftq...@4ax.com...
The crux of the matter is those words "against a decent load". By an large
canal boats do not and certainly do not when in locks.
I have a copy of a WW piece that states that a 60ft narrowboat engine at
canal speed develops about 1hp - add a couple more for the alternator load
when first started, but dropping a the battery becomes charged. You end up
with an engine doing not much more than idling.
Again add the fact that direct injected engines of small cylinder size were
prone to suffer from poor air swirl in the cylinders at low speeds (much
better now they can computer model the combustion process) and you get
typical smoky diesels.
It looks as if nano-particles of ceramin (I think that's the spelling) may
combat this rather well, but ceramin is not the nicest of stuff to be
blowing about in the exhaust.
Also I note that partially blocked exhaust systems exacerbate slow
speed/power exhaust smoke, so a new silencer may well help.
Tony Brooks