Info needed on Lister HA3 engine
Phil Rushton
> From: Phil Rushton <P.Ru...@timewarp.co.uk>
> To: can...@blacksheep.org
> Subject: Re: Info needed on Lister HA3 engine
> Date: 28 December 1998 16:42
>
> ----------
> > From: brocky <dbr...@email.msn.com>
> > To: can...@blacksheep.org
> > Subject: Info needed on Lister HA3 engine
> > Date: 28 December 1998 12:55
> >
> > I've recently purchased a 70' narrowboat built 1981 by R&D and fitted
out
> by
> > Calcutt.
> >
> > It's fitted with a 1965 Lister HA3 engine - unfortunately the previous
> owner
> > did not have a manual for the engine. Does anyone know where I can get
> one
> > from - willm happily purchse or pay for photocopying thereof.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > David Brock
> >
> > nb Miriam Lily
> > Cowroast Marina
> >
> > 07801 74 90 60
>
> David
> Try phoning Arthur Hull on 01132 2639081
> He works for the Lister Department responsible
> for supplying manuals etc. - which reminds me,
> he promised to phone me when he had a new
> supply of SR2 handbooks - must ring him myself.
>
> Cheers
> Phil
-------------------------------------------------------
David
I phoned Arthur Hull last Thursday ( sorry the No. should
have read 01132 639081 ) but he can no longer get a supply
of the SR2/3 handbooks - only the orange coloured ones
which are pretty useless. Hope you have some success
with the HA3 handbook.
Cheers
Phil
P.Ru...@timewarp.co.uk
Phil Rushton
> From: Peter Forbes <die...@easynet.co.uk>> Date: 28 December 1998 17:57
>
> Hi all, hope you had a decent Xmas in spite of the gales:-
>
> I have both sets of manuals by me (SR and HA) if anyone needs data or
info.
> A lot of this is being transferred to my web pages:-
>
> http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
>
> It is up to 44 pages so far, but the technical data section is only on
> water cooled diesels at present, so if you need air-cooled info, please
let
> me know !
>
> Manuals are held for the JP JS and JK series, plus FR, CE/CD and 5/1
range.
>
> Peter
>
> Peter Forbes
> Rushden, Northants, NN10 0RF, UK
> Lister Cold-Starting Diesels
> Fax: +44 (0)1933 355557
> email: die...@easynet.co.uk
>
>
> Phil Rushton <P.Ru...@timewarp.co.uk> wrote in article
> <1642457...@timewarp.co.uk>...
> > ----------
> > > From: brocky <dbr...@email.msn.com>
> > > To: can...@blacksheep.org
> > > Subject: Info needed on Lister HA3 engine
> > > Date: 28 December 1998 12:55
> > >
> > > I've recently purchased a 70' narrowboat built 1981 by R&D and fitted
> out
> > by
> > > Calcutt.
> > >
> > > It's fitted with a 1965 Lister HA3 engine - unfortunately the
previous
> owner
> > > did not have a manual for the engine. Does anyone know where I can
get
> > >
> > > Kind regards David Brock
> > > nb Miriam Lily
> > > Cowroast Marina
> > >
> > > 07801 74 90 60
>
> > David
> > Try phoning Arthur Hull on 01132 2639081
> > He works for the Lister Department responsible
> > for supplying manuals etc. - which reminds me,
> > he promised to phone me when he had a new
> > supply of SR2 handbooks - must ring him myself.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Phil
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Peter
As you will see from my other posting, I have drawn a blank
on obtaining a decent handbook for the SR2.
I have a copy of the 74 page orange handbook titled
"Instruction Manual LRM & SRM 1-2-3"
There are many obvious mistakes in it including several
references to the ST2 rather than the SR2.
If you can supply me with copies or photocopies of a decent
SR2 manual I will be very pleased to pay the commercial rate
( over and above the cost of the photocopies) and I am sure there
are other SR2/3 owners on the list who would do the same.
PS "Why Worry" is like a new boat with her 17 x 12 prop but I still
think the engine would have pushed a 17 x 13 or even 17 x 14
Cheers
Phil
P.Ru...@timewarp.co.uk
John Bennett
------------snip---------------------
>As you will see from my other posting, I have drawn a blank
>on obtaining a decent handbook for the SR2.
>I have a copy of the 74 page orange handbook titled
>"Instruction Manual LRM & SRM 1-2-3"
This doesn't sound like the official Lister 1975 "LR and SR 1-2-3
cylinder" Instruction book (no 1028) that I managed to get hold of
recently, which is AFAIK still available through Lister dealers. It
has 57 pages, a buff cover and as much info in it as I would ever need
for servicing, capacities, specifications etc. The Lister product code
is: 027-08012
>There are many obvious mistakes in it including several
>references to the ST2 rather than the SR2.
>If you can supply me with copies or photocopies of a decent
>SR2 manual I will be very pleased to pay the commercial rate
>( over and above the cost of the photocopies) and I am sure there
>are other SR2/3 owners on the list who would do the same.
Unless you already have the book described above I would suggest you try
and get a copy anyway as it's only UKP5.50.
>
>PS "Why Worry" is like a new boat with her 17 x 12 prop but I still
>think the engine would have pushed a 17 x 13 or even 17 x 14
The spreadsheet said 17x16 for my boat but most people I spoke to
suggested 17x12. I decided to go for a compromise of 17x14 and it's
just arrived. I'm hoping to have it fitted in the next couple of weeks
so I'll let you know how I get on!
Cheers John
--
John Bennett nb "Jake B"
Cheddar Bradford-on Avon
Somerset UK Kennet & Avon
Guy Morgan
<ray.d...@btinternet.com> writes
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: brocky <dbr...@email.msn.com>
>To: can...@blacksheep.org <can...@blacksheep.org>
>Date: 28 December 1998 12:58
>Subject: Info needed on Lister HA3 engine
>
>
>by
>>Calcutt.
>>
>>It's fitted with a 1965 Lister HA3 engine - unfortunately the previous
>owner
>>did not have a manual for the engine. Does anyone know where I can get one
>>
>>Kind regards
>>
>>David Brock
>>
>>nb Miriam Lily
>>Cowroast Marina
>>
>>07801 74 90 60
>
>to the Uxbridge Boat Centre, opposite the General Elliot pub. As one our
>number in this group often ( I believe ) takes his lunch at that
>establishment, maybe he could check it out for you. Probably someone in the
>group will have Pete Thompson's phone number.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Peter can certaainly supply an A4 photocopy of the manual. I have an
HA3 in Thorn and got my manuaal from him. UKP20 AFAIR
Cheers
Guy - delayed response due to boating!
--
Guy Morgan nb Thorn and Persephone, WFB Stockton GU
Three Men in a Boat is a novel form of overcrowding
*Keep urw as a friendly community*
Phil Rushton
> From: John Bennett <jo...@johnpb.demon.co.uk>
> To: can...@blacksheep.org
> Subject: SR2 manual & Propeller update (was - Info needed on Lister HA3
engine
> Date: 10 January 1999 12:45
>
> On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 Phil Rushton <P.Ru...@timewarp.co.uk> wrote:
> ------------snip---------------------
> >As you will see from my other posting, I have drawn a blank
> >on obtaining a decent handbook for the SR2.
> >I have a copy of the 74 page orange handbook titled
> >"Instruction Manual LRM & SRM 1-2-3"
>
> This doesn't sound like the official Lister 1975 "LR and SR 1-2-3
> cylinder" Instruction book (no 1028) that I managed to get hold of
> recently, which is AFAIK still available through Lister dealers. It
> has 57 pages, a buff cover and as much info in it as I would ever need
> for servicing, capacities, specifications etc. The Lister product code
> is: 027-08012
My 74 page manual is Book No. 1029
>
> >There are many obvious mistakes in it including several
> >references to the ST2 rather than the SR2.
> >If you can supply me with copies or photocopies of a decent
> >SR2 manual I will be very pleased to pay the commercial rate
> >( over and above the cost of the photocopies) and I am sure there
> >are other SR2/3 owners on the list who would do the same.
>
> Unless you already have the book described above I would suggest you try
> and get a copy anyway as it's only UKP5.50.
> >
> >PS "Why Worry" is like a new boat with her 17 x 12 prop but I still
> >think the engine would have pushed a 17 x 13 or even 17 x 14
>
> The spreadsheet said 17x16 for my boat but most people I spoke to
> suggested 17x12. I decided to go for a compromise of 17x14 and it's
> just arrived. I'm hoping to have it fitted in the next couple of weeks
> so I'll let you know how I get on!
I look forward to hearing how the prop performs. I would have bought a
17 x 13 or 17 x 14 but could not get one "off the shelf" and I could not
wait for one to be made up as the boat was waiting to be re-launched at
the time.
>
>
> Cheers John
> --
> John Bennett nb "Jake B"
> Cheddar Bradford-on Avon
> Somerset UK Kennet & Avon
Cheers
Phil
Peter Forbes
(The second number is the month and year of publication)
Book 322/1063 FR range FR1 - FR6
Book 106/166 JP range and successors JS,JK
Book 106/354 Early 21-2, 30-3, 40-4 JP ranges
Book 776 dated 1977 HA/HB4, HA/HB6, HS6
Book 582/667 HA2 and HA3, HB2 and HB3
Book 1028/1266 LR1 and LR2, SR1 and SR2
The ST book is out on loan at present, so I cannot give the book details
If any information is required, please let me know.
Peter
Peter Forbes
Lister Cold-Starting Diesels
Fax: +44 (0)1933 355557
email: die...@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/frames
Dave Goulbourne
>
> On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 Phil Rushton <P.Ru...@timewarp.co.uk> wrote:
> ------------snip---------------------
> >As you will see from my other posting, I have drawn a blank
> >on obtaining a decent handbook for the SR2.
> >I have a copy of the 74 page orange handbook titled
> >"Instruction Manual LRM & SRM 1-2-3"
>
Is this Lister book 1029?
If so, I believe it *is* the correct one for the SRM 1-2-3(M= marine?)
as distinct from book 1028 for the SR1-2-3. We all refer to our Listers
as SR this or that, but what IS the actual difference SR - SRM? Anyone
know?
--
Dave
NB Sir Edmund Hillary
'on the bottom road'
Peter Forbes
>
> If so, I believe it *is* the correct one for the SRM 1-2-3(M= marine?)
> as distinct from book 1028 for the SR1-2-3. We all refer to our Listers
> as SR this or that, but what IS the actual difference SR - SRM? Anyone
> know?
SR2M is a marine build engine, and will have its own range of specialised
parts, plus a different parts book. Lister ran their own marinising works,
R.A. Lister Marine Sales Ltd., which handled all such building and sales.
While basic parts such as pistons, gaskets etc are common to both SR2 and
SR2M (for example) there are many other parts such as the main block, which
are machined especially for the marine application, and will not be the
same as the industrial engine.
The old CE is a case in point: the main block and the crankshaft from the
industrial version are different to the marine version in machining etc.,
and are not interchangeable.
JP's, FR's and others have the same differences.
John Bennett
>Dave Goulbourne <davegou...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Is this Lister book 1029?
>>
>> If so, I believe it *is* the correct one for the SRM 1-2-3(M= marine?)
>> as distinct from book 1028 for the SR1-2-3. We all refer to our Listers
>> as SR this or that, but what IS the actual difference SR - SRM? Anyone
>> know?
>
>SR2M is a marine build engine, and will have its own range of specialised
>parts, plus a different parts book. Lister ran their own marinising works,
>R.A. Lister Marine Sales Ltd., which handled all such building and sales.
>
>While basic parts such as pistons, gaskets etc are common to both SR2 and
>SR2M (for example) there are many other parts such as the main block, which
>are machined especially for the marine application, and will not be the
>same as the industrial engine.
That's very interesting Peter, thanks. I hadn't realised there were 2
types.
However how do we know if we have an "SRM" engine or a plain "SR"?
The serial number of mine is 1305 SR2 22 . If it was an SRM engine
would you not expect it to have an "M" in the serial number?
Peter Forbes
> types.
>
> However how do we know if we have an "SRM" engine or a plain "SR"?
> The serial number of mine is 1305 SR2 22 . If it was an SRM engine
> would you not expect it to have an "M" in the serial number?
SR2 serial number 1305 was the 1305th engine produced in 1962.
The way the serial number is made up is a bit complicated, as they tried to
incorporate all the possible variants such as sea water cooling, Marine
propulsion with and without gearboxes etc etc.
The following is a quick breakdown, but if it comes out scrambled, look in
my web pages under Lister Technical and then Dating:-
163-HRW-2-A-24-R
163 - Serial of the engine in the year of production (starting Jan 1st each
year)
HRW - Engine type
2 - Number of cylinders
A - Anticlockwise rotation
24 - Year of manufacture - add to 1950
R - Radiator cooled
Other designations:-
S - Seawater cooled
M - Marine auxiliary engine (compressor, generator etc)
MG - Marine propulsion unit
MG - Marine propulsion
MP - Marine Propulsion without gearbox
MGR - Marine propulsion with reduction gearbox
V - Lister-assembled genset engine
-01 etc Build number
Don't forget that many Listers found their way onto the cut through
non-marine sources, especially the air-cooled units, as they had standard
gearbox interfaces and the cooling was simplified by standard ducting
arrangements.
A marine engine will normally have a marine plate attached, especially one
of your engine's vintage :-)
Hope this is of help.
Bruce
>However how do we know if we have an "SRM" engine or a plain "SR"?
>The serial number of mine is 1305 SR2 22 . If it was an SRM engine
>would you not expect it to have an "M" in the serial number?
I'm told that the marine variant runs the opposite way to the
industrial one - I don't know whether this is true
However, we were assured by someone who knows Listers that Badgers is
a marine variant (ie -M) because it runs anti-clockwise (looking
towards the front of the engine). I've often wondered about this
however, because the engine is fitted with a Lister original fuel
tank atop of the front of the engine which would seem odd for a
supposedly purpose built marine engine ?????
Perhaps Peter could shed some light on this!
--
Regards
Bruce
Email: br...@netscheme.co.uk
Web: http://www.netscheme.co.uk/index.htm
John Bennett
>John Bennett <jo...@johnpb.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> That's very interesting Peter, thanks. I hadn't realised there were 2
>> types.
>>
>> The serial number of mine is 1305 SR2 22 . If it was an SRM engine
>> would you not expect it to have an "M" in the serial number?
>
Have you not added 10 years to the poor old thing's life Peter?:-)
>
>The way the serial number is made up is a bit complicated, as they tried to
>incorporate all the possible variants such as sea water cooling, Marine
>propulsion with and without gearboxes etc etc.
>
-----snip useful info on serial letters etc--------
>
>A marine engine will normally have a marine plate attached, especially one
>of your engine's vintage :-)
>
No marine plate or letter "M" anywhere to be found on my engine.
>Hope this is of help.
>
Indeed it is Peter, thanks. I am now assuming from both yours and Andy
Clark's informative replies that my SR2 is not a "marinised" version.
I also assume that Lister Instruction book 1028 is the correct one for
all non-marinised SR2s?
Peter Forbes
John Bennett <jo...@johnpb.demon.co.uk> wrote
> Have you not added 10 years to the poor old thing's life Peter?:-)
Yes, I obviously cannot add 1950 and 22 together !
Should be 1972 of course, and the 1028 manual should be the one you need.
Ref Bruce's comment about the rotation, I can see where this comes from, as
some gearbox gear trains would end up with the propellor going the wrong
way, but I think that this was sorted out fairly early on, and most engines
would be standard rotation ie: clockwise looking at the front of the engine
or anti-clock looking at the flywheel.
I will take advice on this and get back to the group later.
Regards,
Peter Forbes
> Book 1029PL: Parts List for the LRM & SRM 1-2-3 Marine Diesel engine
> (includes engine, manual & hydraulic gearbox and reduction gear) - 2
> available
Put me down for one of these please Andy, I don't have this one in the
library :-)
bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk
>Ref Bruce's comment about the rotation, I can see where this comes from,
>as some gearbox gear trains would end up with the propellor going the
>wrong way, but I think that this was sorted out fairly early on, and most
>engines would be standard rotation ie: clockwise looking at the front of
>the engine or anti-clock looking at the flywheel.
Badger's SR2 is a 1970 jobbie (Glen may have the cereal number to
hand) ..... now, when you say clockwise looking *at* the front of
the engine, do you mean towards?
To clarify, if you stand at the back of the boat and look towards the
fore-end, Badger's engine is rotating anti-clockwise
--
Regards
Bruce Peckett
Email: bru...@netscheme.co.uk
Web: http://netscheme.co.uk/index.htm
John Bennett
<bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 14 Jan 99, at 9:00, you wrote:
>
>>Ref Bruce's comment about the rotation, I can see where this comes from,
>>as some gearbox gear trains would end up with the propellor going the
>>wrong way, but I think that this was sorted out fairly early on, and most
>>engines would be standard rotation ie: clockwise looking at the front of
>>the engine or anti-clock looking at the flywheel.
>
>Badger's SR2 is a 1970 jobbie (Glen may have the cereal number to
>hand) ..... now, when you say clockwise looking *at* the front of
>the engine, do you mean towards?
>
>To clarify, if you stand at the back of the boat and look towards the
>fore-end, Badger's engine is rotating anti-clockwise
Presumably in forward gear?
If so it's exactly the same rotation as mine (now established as a "non-
marinised" engine) Bruce. Badger would also be swinging a Left Handed
propeller I imagine?
PAForbes
and he advises that ALL SR2's and SR3's were clockwise looking at the
flywheel, or anticlock looking at the 'front' of the engine.
HR2's and HR3's were different, and went the other way, in the same way that
automotive engines run, ie: anticlockwise looking at the flywheel or clockwise
looking at the 'front' of the engine.
Hope this clarifies the matter :-)
Regards to all,
Peter
die...@easynet.co.uk (home email) :-)
pafo...@aol.com (work email) :-(
Ray Dunford
-----Original Message-----
From: bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk <bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk>
To: can...@blacksheep.org <can...@blacksheep.org>
Date: 14 January 1999 09:44
Subject: Re: SR2 manual & Rotation
>On 14 Jan 99, at 9:00, you wrote:
>
>>Ref Bruce's comment about the rotation, I can see where this comes from,
>>as some gearbox gear trains would end up with the propellor going the
>>wrong way, but I think that this was sorted out fairly early on, and most
>>engines would be standard rotation ie: clockwise looking at the front of
>>the engine or anti-clock looking at the flywheel.
>
>Badger's SR2 is a 1970 jobbie (Glen may have the cereal number to
>hand) ..... now, when you say clockwise looking *at* the front of
>the engine, do you mean towards?
Do you put oil in it, or *Milk* on it ! ;-))
Cheers,
Ray Dunford.
Preston Brook, Cheshire. Tel : 01928 715369
>
>To clarify, if you stand at the back of the boat and look towards the
>fore-end, Badger's engine is rotating anti-clockwise
Bruce
>>To clarify, if you stand at the back of the boat and look towards the
>>fore-end, Badger's engine is rotating anti-clockwise
>
>Presumably in forward gear?
Well, it goes forward when it's going that way round - of course, it
could be in reverse :-)
>
>If so it's exactly the same rotation as mine (now established as a "non-
>marinised" engine) Bruce. Badger would also be swinging a Left Handed
>propeller I imagine?
One imagines so, otherwise comment above could well be true!!!
I'm of the opinion that Badger's SR2 is a marinised industrial
variant, not an original marine engine. According to the detailed and
extensive information that came with the boat, the engine (which is
dated 1970) was fitted new in 1975
What was it doing for 5 years? Sitting on a shelf? My guess is it was
a spare engine, MOD perhaps, that was disposed of as surplus to
requirements
Maybe Glen could dig out the details from the log ......
Bruce
>Re the discussions on engine rotation, I have checked with David Harris
>today, and he advises that ALL SR2's and SR3's were clockwise looking at
>the flywheel, or anticlock looking at the 'front' of the engine.
<snip>
>Hope this clarifies the matter :-)
Makes me wonder just how expert my "expert" is, that's for sure :-)
Peter Forbes
you lot !)
The simple reduction gearboxes had a single gear set, thus reversing the
rotation of the engine. This would have been true of the other marine
gearboxes, as long as there was only a single gear set between the engine
and prop. This implies that some engines would be 'wrong' on rotation as
supplied.
Listers built clock and anti-clock for all ranges, the problem is that some
engines were naturally 'wrong' to start with !
As already stated, the SR and HR are opposite rotation as supplied, which
means that you either need a double-reduction gearbox, or you need to
change the 'hand' of the prop.
The options available for the ST (for example) are quite extensive, and
anti-clock rotation is available as part of the standard set-up, but it
involves major items such as the air-cooling fan and shroud, camshaft,
starting equipment etc etc., so it is not just a quick change-over option,
it is a complete re-build !
As regards industrial engines in boats, it is not uncommon at all, and the
beauty of the Lister air-cooled engines was their simplicity of
installation, both mechanical and cooling. Many an old three-cylinder lump
gained a new lease of life in a canal boat !
Engine labelling changed in the 1970's, with the year code in front of the
engine serial number, and the number groups separated out on the label.
These are not going to conform to the older 1950-1970 label data I gave
this week, so be careful !
I will try to compile a definitive listing of engine type and rotation in
the next few days, to give a bit of refernce material for you all to chew
on :-)
Regards to all,
Peter
PS I have the ST book back now if anyone needs info
Peter Forbes
> Just squeezed in there Peter, you get the last one (slightly grubby cover
> I'm afraid!).
Many thanks Andy, I have two or three people in the 'Sates and Canada with
FR's and SR's and there are occasionally LR's and LD's that need a bit of
info :-)
If anyone has Petter engines in their boats (and I have a PHW2 with marine
gearbox) that needs any dating information, I have posted three long pages
of engine dating information on my web pages that may be of interest, (url
below on my sig)
Peter
Peter Forbes
Lister Cold-Starting Diesels
Fax: +44 (0)1933 355557
email: die...@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel (Unframed pages)
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/frames (Framed pages)
Bruce
>>To clarify, if you stand at the back of the boat and look towards the
>>fore-end, Badger's engine is rotating anti-clockwise
>
>In that case it's not a standard marine engine, what gearbox is fitted?
>(Haven't we been here before <g>?)
Lister Blackstone - exactly what you'd expect :-)
The more I consider it, the odder Badgers set up gets! Works well
though as long as you remember to switch over to the engine tank for
a couple of hours once in a while - the injector bleed off's empty
into there not back to the main tank
We've never actually overflowed the engine tank but it's been close
once or twice!
Tim Leech
>On 14 Jan 99, at 17:16, PAForbes wrote:
>
>>Re the discussions on engine rotation, I have checked with David Harris
>>today, and he advises that ALL SR2's and SR3's were clockwise looking at
>>the flywheel, or anticlock looking at the 'front' of the engine.
I have my doubts as to whether this is really true.
May be true for all *marine* SRs.
><snip>
>
>>Hope this clarifies the matter :-)
>
>Makes me wonder just how expert my "expert" is, that's for sure :-)
>--
>Regards
>Bruce
>Email: br...@netscheme.co.uk
>Web: http://www.netscheme.co.uk/index.htm
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
Tim Leech
timl...@dutondok.u-net.com
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
-------------------------------------------------
Phil Rushton
> From: Bruce <bru...@netscheme.co.uk>
> To: can...@blacksheep.org
> Subject: Re: SR2 manual & Rotation
>
> On 14 Jan 99, at 10:45, John Bennett wrote:
>
> >>To clarify, if you stand at the back of the boat and look towards the
> >>fore-end, Badger's engine is rotating anti-clockwise
> >
>
> Well, it goes forward when it's going that way round - of course, it
> could be in reverse :-)
> >
> >If so it's exactly the same rotation as mine (now established as a "non-
> >marinised" engine) Bruce. Badger would also be swinging a Left Handed
> >propeller I imagine?
>
> One imagines so, otherwise comment above could well be true!!!
>
> I'm of the opinion that Badger's SR2 is a marinised industrial
> variant, not an original marine engine. According to the detailed and
> extensive information that came with the boat, the engine (which is
> dated 1970) was fitted new in 1975
>
> What was it doing for 5 years? Sitting on a shelf? My guess is it was
> a spare engine, MOD perhaps, that was disposed of as surplus to
> requirements
From other stories I hear this not uncommon. Many SR2/3's seem
to have been hanging around somewhere for a few years
before being fitted to new boats. My own SR2 (marine version) is dated
1976 and was installed in Why Worry in 1980 - a new installation in a
new boat.
Had Listers been over- producing engines at that time, or had boatyards
been buying up job lots at discount?
>
> Maybe Glen could dig out the details from the log ......
>
> --
> Regards
> Bruce
> Email: br...@netscheme.co.uk
> Web: http://www.netscheme.co.uk/index.htm
Phil Rushton
> From: Andy Clarke <BMSer...@btinternet.com>
> To: can...@blacksheep.org
> Subject: Re: SR2 / HR2 rotation
> Date: 15 January 1999 00:12
>
> I think the real confusion here is the difference between *engine*
> rotation and *propshaft* rotation.
>
> The *engine* rotation of the Lister SR as supplied for marine use is
> clockwise.
>
> When the gearbox is running in *ahead* the engine rotation is maintained
> in the gearbox but reversed in the reduction gear (the bit fitted to the
> back of the gearbox) so the *shaft* rotation is anticlockwise.
>
> When the gearbox is running in *astern* the rotation is reversed in the
> gearbox and then reversed again in the reduction gear so the *shaft*
> rotation is now clockwise.
>
> What of course makes it more complicated is that the shaft sticking out
> of the *front* of the engine is the camshaft, which turns the opposite
> way to the engine.......
I follow what you say - its just a case of appreciating that the camshaft
is directly gear driven from the crankshaft so rotates the opposite way.
No worries about rattling chains or cambelts needing replacement!
In my case the starting handle fits on the end of the camshaft so one
turn of the handle turns the engine two revolutions. I have not yet
succeeded
in starting the engine by hand, although I have only tried in cold weather
and with straight 30's oil. With the LH150 box one is turning the prop
as well as the engine when trying to hand start.
Just trying to keep this string going !!!
By the way, are any of you interested in an informal list of SR2/3 owners?
It could be mutually beneficial to compare notes etc.
I would be more than happy to prepare and maintain a database.
>
> There, is that clear? No, I thought not, I can see there'll be a lot of
> lifting of engine covers this weekend <g>.
(PS Andy - the cash is now in the envelope for posting - thanks)
>
> Andy Clarke
> --
> BMS, Canal Wharf, Lower Heyford, South Oxford Canal, UK. Mobile:0860
577480
> bmser...@btinternet.com - http://www.btinternet.com/~bmservices/bms/
> Engine info, Boat Safety Scheme Q&A, Boatie Bits for sale
> Narrowboats & Cruisers For Sale
bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk
>I think the real confusion here is the difference between *engine*
>rotation and *propshaft* rotation.
Aaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!!! :-)
Stop the world, I wanna get off
OK, now I'm really confused :-')
Now, on Badger,, when hand starting I'm standing in front of the
engine facing backwards down the boat and I swing the starting handle
clockwise - so I figured the engine was an anti-clockwise rotation
jobby yes?
gl...@spxuk.co.uk
Flywheel +--------------+
\ | |
+-+ |
Shaft +---+----| | |
-----------| | | | | <----- Looking this way
-----------| | | | | Rotation is clockwise
+---+----| | |
+-+ |
| |
+--------------+
*********************************************************
This electronic message transmission contains information
from SPX Corporation which is confidential or privileged.
Any disclosure, copying or distribution or use of the
contents of this information is prohibited. If you have
received this electronic transmission in error, please
notify us by telephone (+44 1327 303416) or by electronic
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Fax: 01327 871625
Internet Address: gl...@spxuk.co.uk
**********************************************************
gl...@spxuk.co.uk
I think this does need some further investigation!
To follow up on Bruce's point about Badger's engine not being a marine one - I believe he's wrong here.
All the manual, documentation, etc. I have are for the marine variant (i.e. the manual is actually for the SRM engines). I also have separate specific installation instructions for the marine engine as supplied by Lister.
The in-built day tank was an option on the marine engines, quite why I'm not sure, but it is sufficient for about a day's running.
The gearboxes are both original Lister Blackstone by the way.
We'll try and have a closer look this weekend and report back next week! *********************************************************
bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk
>OK - I just read Andy's note about the camshaft being the bit sticking
>out!
>
>I think this does need some further investigation!
Does, therefore, the remote starter operate onto the camshaft and
therefore is also turning the opposite to the engine rotation? Assume
it does
<snip>
>We'll try and have a closer look this weekend and report back next
>week!
Definitely - I'm getting more curious by the minute!
PAForbes
Harris, which may (please God !) clarify the situation:
ST and SR engines were driven from the flywheel, and that rotated clockwise
looking at the flywheel face.
HR2 and HR3 were driven off the gearcasing shaft, not the flywheel. The
gearcase shaft rotates clockwise looking at the end of the shaft, the flywheel
at the other end of the engine rotates anticlock looking at the flywheel face.
HR4 and HR6 engines were driven off the flywheel, and that rotated anti-clock
looking at the flywheel face.
HR2 and HR3 engines had the 2G Lister box fitted, and the HR4 and HR6 engines
had the 3G box.
All dumper engines ( ! ) were reverse rotation output, for what that is worth !
David confirmed what we all probably suspect, that a lot of industrial engines
were fitted into boats, to save money on initial purchase costs.
Regards,
Peter
martinp
-----Original Message-----
From: PAForbes <pafo...@aol.com>
To: can...@blacksheep.org <can...@blacksheep.org>
Date: 15 January 1999 14:33
Subject: Re: SR2 / HR2 rotation
I was told some Japanese boat engines were designed for cement mixers.
webm...@waterways.org.uk
>A bit more information on the subject has been passed on to me from David
>Harris, which may (please God !) clarify the situation:
Nope. I'm non the wiser!
I've come to the conclusion that I no longer care where the hell it
came from or which beep way it goes round - that it goes round full
stop is sufficient
:-)
TTFN
gl...@spxuk.co.uk
I was being confused by the fact that the starter is on the CAMshaft not the CRANKshaft (b****y silly if you ask me), I'd assumed it was same as a Landrover (about the only other engine I've had equipped for hand-start) so accept I was probably totally wrong in my assertions earlier.
That then makes a lot of sense going back to the comment about SRs going the opposite way round to a car engine, since the starting handle on my Landrover used to be the same direction as the one on the SR.
I think the thought that marine engines go the "wrong way" round stems from the point in Peter's post that all Dumper Truck engines run the other way - which is of course where many of the non-marine SRs in boats actually come from! Now, given the above statement that road vehicle engines go the opposite way to SRs, it makes good sense that the dumper truck varieties went the opposite way!
bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk
>OK - think I've got it now...
Well don't give it to me please - I;ve had everything going this
winter already
>
>I was being confused by the fact that the starter is on the CAMshaft not
>the CRANKshaft (b****y silly if you ask me), I'd assumed it was same as a
>Landrover (about the only other engine I've had equipped for hand-start)
>so accept I was probably totally wrong in my assertions earlier.
Yeah? "Little" Bruv admits he might have been wrong? You feeling all
right? :-)
>
>That then makes a lot of sense going back to the comment about SRs going
>the opposite way round to a car engine, since the starting handle on my
>Landrover used to be the same direction as the one on the SR.
>
>I think the thought that marine engines go the "wrong way" round stems
>from the point in Peter's post that all Dumper Truck engines run the other
>way - which is of course where many of the non-marine SRs in boats
>actually come from! Now, given the above statement that road vehicle
>engines go the opposite way to SRs, it makes good sense that the dumper
>truck varieties went the opposite way!
Er yeah, right, I see (not)!
So is Badger's a marine wrong way round one, a marine right way round
one, a dumper truck right way round one or a ...............
Pass me the EasiStart someone quick!
Bruce
>Sorry if this engine rotation thing is a bit confusing (to me as well as
>you lot !)
Glad it's not just us being thick :-)
<snip>
>As regards industrial engines in boats, it is not uncommon at all, and the
>beauty of the Lister air-cooled engines was their simplicity of
>installation, both mechanical and cooling. Many an old three-cylinder lump
>gained a new lease of life in a canal boat !
Probably even more two pots - the SR2 was ubiquitous in the hire boat
industry for many many years powering most fleets hire boats until
increasing wimpishness demanded a more refained engine. Fomr
experience, a properly set up SR2 is perfectly adequate in a quite
deep draughted 48 foot hire boat (we know it was quite deep draughted
'cos it kept getting stuck on the Macclesfield!)
Much over 50ft and I think the SR3 would be the better bet though I
think that some bigger boats had SR2's, even up to 70' which must
have been rather underpowered (perhaps not such a bad thing in a hire
boat!)
<snip>
>I will try to compile a definitive listing of engine type and rotation in
>the next few days, to give a bit of refernce material for you all to chew
>on :-)
We await it with baited breath :->
Many thanks for the time and research Peter, it's much appreciated
(and if ever Badger's SR2 is in need of medical attention expect a
'phone call :-)
TTFN
--
Regards
Bruce
Brian L Dominic
>On 15 Jan 99, at 0:12, you wrote:
>
>>I think the real confusion here is the difference between *engine*
>>rotation and *propshaft* rotation.
>
>Aaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!!! :-)
>
>Stop the world, I wanna get off
Ah, but which way is it spinning??
Brian
NB "Rumpus"
Web Sites:
"Rumpus": http://www.proweb.co.uk/~dominicfam/rumpus.htm
Golden Valley Light Railway: http://www.proweb.co.uk/~dominicfam/
Canals: http://www.proweb.co.uk/~dominicfam/canal.htm
Bruce
>>>I think the real confusion here is the difference between *engine*
>>>rotation and *propshaft* rotation.
>>
>>Aaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!!! :-)
>>
>>Stop the world, I wanna get off
>
>Ah, but which way is it spinning??
That's it. That's the last straw. I can't stand it anymore
I'm off ....... to the off-licence
glug glug glug glug hic!
Molly
<bru...@netscheme.co.uk> writes
>On 15 Jan 99, at 18:12, Brian L Dominic wrote:
>
>>>>I think the real confusion here is the difference between *engine*
>>>>rotation and *propshaft* rotation.
>>>
>>>Aaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!!! :-)
>>>
>>>Stop the world, I wanna get off
>>
>>Ah, but which way is it spinning??
>
>That's it. That's the last straw. I can't stand it anymore
>
>I'm off ....... to the off-licence
>
>glug glug glug glug hic!
>
--
Molly
Bruce
>I suspect that Bruce is right - if the Navy used the engines for
>whalers / ships boats etc. - they would more than likely have had
>warehouses full of spares, brand new boxed engines. With the
>great reduction in the fleet in the 60's / 70's - many boats and
>spares would have been sold off.
Coupled with the major down-sizing of our Merchant Navy fleet during
the same time period - air cooled Listers and Petters were common in
ships lifeboats (according to the Old Man who worked on the blighters)
Bruce
>>A bit more information on the subject has been passed on to me from David
>>Harris, which may (please God !) clarify the situation:
>>
><snip>
>
>Wonderful, Peter <g> that'll get 'em going!
Yes, but clockwise or anticlockwise?
Peter Forbes
Bruce <bru...@netscheme.co.uk> wrote
> Yes, but clockwise or anticlockwise?
Dunno Guv, we're all in a spin.....
A.Heretic
Peter Forbes
Lister Cold-Starting Diesels
Fax: +44 (0)1933 355557
email: die...@easynet.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
martinp
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 03:39
Subject: Re: SR2 / HR2 rotation
>On 15 Jan 99, at 22:32, Andy Clarke wrote:
>
>>>A bit more information on the subject has been passed on to me from David
>>>Harris, which may (please God !) clarify the situation:
>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Wonderful, Peter <g> that'll get 'em going!
>
>Yes, but clockwise or anticlockwise?
Southern or Northern hemisphere?
Glen Peckett
<bru...@halfcut.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<Snip>
>
>So is Badger's a marine wrong way round one, a marine right way round
>one, a dumper truck right way round one or a ...............
I've checked back on manuals, logs, etc. To try and clarify this! I've
no doubts now that the engine is a genuine Marine variant. going the
"right" way round.
Only extra info from the logs is that it came from Margate, which
suggests sea-going rather than canal supply (this may well explain the
inbuilt day tank).
>
>Pass me the EasiStart someone quick!
For you I trust, not the engine!!! :-)
Jeff Dennison
>>>Wonderful, Peter <g> that'll get 'em going!
>>
>>Yes, but clockwise or anticlockwise?
>
>Southern or Northern hemisphere?
This thread seems to be going round in circles. :-)
Regards
Jeff
--
Songs of the Waterways - compact disc "They're coming back to the water"
Web site http://www.pipemedia.net/users/jeffd/index.htm
Telephone: 01203 615582 Mobile 07970 281853
If you ain't makin' waves, you ain't kickin' hard enough!
Chris N Deuchar
> HR2's and HR3's were different, and went the other way, in the same way that
> automotive engines run, ie: anticlockwise looking at the flywheel or clockwise
> looking at the 'front' of the engine.
Hmmm, now my HB2 (ie almost identical to the HRs) has the correct (according to
the manual) marine installation - and the flywheel is at the front :-) so the
above cannot be correct. Facing the front/flywheel it turns anticlockwise
("standard rotation"!), the reduction gear reverses this and so I use a LH prop
ok? (That was a rhetorical '?' by the way - I *know* I have a LH prop
Cheers
Chris D
--
Chris N. Deuchar, Nottingham University,
Sutton Bonington Campus, Loughborough, LE12 5RD
tel 0115 951 6264,fax 0115 951 6267
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~sbzcd/
Martin Ludgate
Bruce <bru...@netscheme.co.uk> writes
>On 15 Jan 99, at 20:49, Malcolm Nixon wrote:
>
>>I suspect that Bruce is right - if the Navy used the engines for
>>whalers / ships boats etc. - they would more than likely have had
>>warehouses full of spares, brand new boxed engines. With the
>>great reduction in the fleet in the 60's / 70's - many boats and
>>spares would have been sold off.
>
>Coupled with the major down-sizing of our Merchant Navy fleet during
>the same time period - air cooled Listers and Petters were common in
>ships lifeboats (according to the Old Man who worked on the blighters)
Does anyone know what boats other than GU working narrow
boats were fitted with 2 cylinder National engines? The one that
very soon (oink oink flap flap) will be propelling Fulbourne
appeared to have been sunk in salt water - part of the reason it
needed so much work - and as far as we know it came from
somewhere in the Southend area. So would it have been used in
a fishing boat, or a ship's lifeboat?
I had heard that the National engine was a copy of the Russell
Newbery design, built under licence because RN couldn't produce
enough engines quickly enough for the large GUCCCo orders.
But did National also produce them for other customers?
Of course, it may have originated in a narrow boat and been
bought second-hand and installed in a sea-going craft, maybe
when a lot of the GU boats had Petters fitted in the 1950s.
For all we know, it could be the one that Fulbourne's owners sold
for 50 quid in the late 1960s!
--
Martin Ludgate
Tim Leech
>In message <E101LZ5-...@post.mail.demon.net>,
>Bruce <bru...@netscheme.co.uk> writes
>>On 15 Jan 99, at 20:49, Malcolm Nixon wrote:
>>
>>>I suspect that Bruce is right - if the Navy used the engines for
>>>whalers / ships boats etc. - they would more than likely have had
>>>warehouses full of spares, brand new boxed engines. With the
>>>great reduction in the fleet in the 60's / 70's - many boats and
>>>spares would have been sold off.
>>
>>Coupled with the major down-sizing of our Merchant Navy fleet during
>>the same time period - air cooled Listers and Petters were common in
>>ships lifeboats (according to the Old Man who worked on the blighters)
>
>Does anyone know what boats other than GU working narrow
>boats were fitted with 2 cylinder National engines? The one that
>very soon (oink oink flap flap) will be propelling Fulbourne
>appeared to have been sunk in salt water - part of the reason it
>needed so much work - and as far as we know it came from
>somewhere in the Southend area. So would it have been used in
>a fishing boat, or a ship's lifeboat?
>
>I had heard that the National engine was a copy of the Russell
>Newbery design, built under licence because RN couldn't produce
>enough engines quickly enough for the large GUCCCo orders.
>But did National also produce them for other customers?
>
Indeed yes.
I used to have a DM4 which had been fitted new into a Campbeltown fishing
boat. This was wrecked when relatively young, the engine was salvaged and
fitted to one of the last Billy Boys to trade (as a wing engine, alongside
a larger National.
We bought a DM2 from Harry Mayor at Tarleton, for the Short Boat Edith,
circa 1966. This was more or less identical to the GU type, with 2:1
reduction. We enquired of Mirlees, who had absorbed Nationals and still had
some residual knowledge of the engines at that time, and they told us it
had been fitted new to a yacht by the name of 'Dorade'.
Alongside our engine at Tarleton was another DM2, this one with a direct
drive gearbox and clearly not ex- Narrow Boat.
As mentioned in another post, I have a D2 stationary engine at present,
which is identical but for the mounting feet and cooling water pump (and
lack of gearbox) to the GU engines
>Of course, it may have originated in a narrow boat and been
>bought second-hand and installed in a sea-going craft, maybe
>when a lot of the GU boats had Petters fitted in the 1950s.
>
>For all we know, it could be the one that Fulbourne's owners sold
>for 50 quid in the late 1960s!
>--
Someone has records of original engine numbers fitted to the GU fleet,
though they were swapped around as part of the maintenance programme.
>Martin Ludgate
>
>
Someone was asking recently where RNs were built - it was Broadheath,
Manchester during the GU period. They moved to Dagenham, during or after
WWII AFAIK.
Nationals were built in Ashton-under-Lyne (also Manchester area)
Cheers
PAForbes
<<< Hmmm, now my HB2 (ie almost identical to the HRs) has the correct
(according to
the manual) marine installation - and the flywheel is at the front :-) so the
above cannot be correct. Facing the front/flywheel it turns anticlockwise
("standard rotation"!), the reduction gear reverses this and so I use a LH prop
ok? (That was a rhetorical '?' by the way - I *know* I have a LH prop >>>
Quite possibly Chris, look at the engine number and see if it is a reverse
rotation engine. I don't have info for the HB series, perhaps Andy Clarke
could advise ?
Peter
Tim Leech
This is standard for all the HA/B and HR marine engines. I *think* it does
actually tally with standard rotation as you described, and I'm not aware
of any rotation problems when marinising industrial 'H' series, using
Lister bits.
Incidentally, the HB is basically a faster revving HA.
>Peter
>
>die...@easynet.co.uk
Chris N Deuchar
> At 23:04 18/01/1999 GMT, you wrote:
> >Chris Deuchar wrote::
> >
> ><<< Hmmm, now my HB2 (ie almost identical to the HRs) has the correct
> >(according to
> >the manual) marine installation - and the flywheel is at the front :-) so the
> >above cannot be correct. Facing the front/flywheel it turns anticlockwise
> >("standard rotation"!), the reduction gear reverses this and so I use a LH
> prop
> >ok? (That was a rhetorical '?' by the way - I *know* I have a LH prop >>>
> >
> >Quite possibly Chris, look at the engine number and see if it is a reverse
> >rotation engine. I don't have info for the HB series, perhaps Andy Clarke
> >could advise ?
There is no R.
> This is standard for all the HA/B and HR marine engines. I *think* it does
> actually tally with standard rotation as you described, and I'm not aware
> of any rotation problems when marinising industrial 'H' series, using
> Lister bits.
Mine is the genuine marine HB - installed by BW in the early sixties.
> Incidentally, the HB is basically a faster revving HA.
The only difference on the parts lists is the governor weights!
And the HR is just an even faster HB?
:-)
Tim Leech
>Tim Leech wrote:
>
>> This is standard for all the HA/B and HR marine engines. I *think* it does
>> actually tally with standard rotation as you described, and I'm not aware
>> of any rotation problems when marinising industrial 'H' series, using
>> Lister bits.
>
>Mine is the genuine marine HB - installed by BW in the early sixties.
>
>> Incidentally, the HB is basically a faster revving HA.
>
>The only difference on the parts lists is the governor weights!
>
>And the HR is just an even faster HB?
>
>:-)
No. although they look very similar externally, there are lots of internal
bits which are different.
>Chris D
>
>--
David Beet
various gear change linkages which suggests they had sea-going boats in
mind.
If Malcolm has an engine number, I could tell him if it was originally a
GUCCC one.
David
Tim Leech wrote in message
<3.0.5.32.1999011...@mail.u-net.com>...
Martin Ludgate
<db...@cwcom.net> writes
>The National DM installation manual I have refers to wooden hulls and
>various gear change linkages which suggests they had sea-going boats
>in
>mind.
>
>If Malcolm has an engine number, I could tell him if it was originally a
>GUCCC one.
>
Unfortunately I think our engine has lost its engine number plate.
--
Martin Ludgate
Tim Leech
It should be stamped on the top of the timing case, just below the injector
pump
>Martin Ludgate
Martin Ludgate
net.com>, Tim Leech <timl...@dutondok.u-net.com> writes
>At 19:52 20/01/1999 +0000, you wrote:
>>In message <36a62...@news1.mcmail.com>, David Beet
>><db...@cwcom.net> writes
>>>The National DM installation manual I have refers to wooden hulls and
>>>various gear change linkages which suggests they had sea-going
>boats
>>>in
>>>mind.
Rickmansworth by Walkers.
>>>
>>>If Malcolm has an engine number, I could tell him if it was originally a
>>>GUCCC one.
>>>
>>Actually it wasn't Malcomn's query, he was quoting me.
>>Unfortunately I think our engine has lost its engine number plate.
>>--
>
>It should be stamped on the top of the timing case, just below the injector
>pump
>
--
Martin Ludgate
Tim Leech
>In message <36a62...@news1.mcmail.com>, David Beet
><db...@cwcom.net> writes
>>The National DM installation manual I have refers to wooden hulls and
>>various gear change linkages which suggests they had sea-going boats
>>in
>>mind.
>>
>>GUCCC one.
>>
Three things which may indicate an ex-GU engine:
The reverse gearbox was lubricated from the engine, the reduction gear
designed to be self-contained and splash lubricated with its own oil. The
sealing arrangements between the two were poor, so GU or maybe BW had
admitted defeat by fitting a balance pipe (? ½ inch BSP steel tube) between
the two, either to ensure the reduction gear always had some oil, or to
stop the level building up too high.
GU engines that I've seen had Amal lift pumps, mounted above the gearbox on
the timing case.
The lubrication to the exhaust valve stems was removed.
The DM2 and DM4 I used to own/part own had none of these characteristics.
>Actually it wasn't Malcomn's query, he was quoting me.
>Unfortunately I think our engine has lost its engine number plate.
>--