Daves Irish Sea voyage.
Roger Murray
idiots or adventurers, whichever way you look at them, I like to think of
them as the latter, who go out to sea in narrowboats and such like. Indeed I
recently posted one about a friend who took his narrowboat out to sea at Gt
Yarmouth finishing up as a wreck on the Norfolk shore with the good ships
piano ending up as bits for miles up the coast.
At the back end of last week I got some frantic texts on the mobile from the
girl friend of a wonderful character called Dave who lives on an old Mersey
Flat, the 'Oakdale'. Not a high rise in Bootle, but one of the fine old
trading barges of the Mersey. Dave had apparently set off to sea complete
with dog and ships cat.
He kept the Oakdale for many years at the Maritime Museum's Albert Dock in
Liverpool. She is the last surviving Mersey flat still afloat. Dave who is
very much into local maritime history virtually dug the Oakdale out of the
mud and restored her. At one time the river Mersey was full of them, there
were hundreds. Now the river is empty. They were the life blood of the port.
Just as important to Liverpool as the Thames barge was to London,
transhipping goods from the ships to small coastal ports and to inland towns
up rivers and canals. It is said that the industrial revolution would have
had difficulty in moving the heavy castings of the time without the Mersey
Flat. Anyway, Dave's Mersey Flat the 'Oakdale', needed new bottom planks.
Dave had saved enough money for the planks and nails etc but could not
afford the dry docking. The Maritime Museum said they could not afford it
either.
Dave reckoned that if he could sail the Oakdale up to Millom on the Duddon
estuary, just north of Walney Island on the Cumbria coast, he could do the
job himself. He knew of some high lying sandbanks he could beach her on, on
very high tide. He could jack her up and work on the bottom. So about two
years ago he set off from Liverpool, down the Mersey using the ebb, out into
the Irish Sea and headed north for Millom. His only means of propulsion, a
little Lister, I think an HA2 and a bit of home made sail. The Lister will
move her at about three knots in a dead calm sea, not forgetting that the
Oakdale weighs 74 tons, is 76ft x 15.9ft.
He ended up in a North Westerly gale off Morecambe bay and was in danger off
being blown on to the treacherous sand banks. He managed to come about which
was difficult with her big bluff bows and run for the Ribble which is a
treacherous river to say the least. In the pitch black of the night he
managed to beach her on the foreshore at Lytham St Annes. The next day the
local lifeboat re positioned him so that he would float on every tide.
The Oakdale with Dave and his girl friend Adrienne, the dog and cat lived
happily on Lytham shore, just between the high and low water marks for
nearly eighteen months. I always thought that it added a bit of colour and a
maritime flavour to the town's now bereft of shipping river. Dave was always
meticulous about tidiness and kept the old barge looking spick and span,
always painted in her house colours of yellow and black. From the shore you
would never see garbage or bits hanging around and their washing was always
hung on the river side of the boat and could never be seen by the very
expensive apartments on the rather sniffy Lytham esplanade. Dave got the
expected letter from the council telling him to remove the boat with the
threat of legal proceedings.
So just after midnight last Friday, he lights up his paraffin navigation
lights, up anchors, starts the Lister and using the ebb tide sets off for
Millom, the original destination, complete with dog and cat and a bystander
on the beach who said he would go with him. He is two miles off Blackpool at
6am drops his anchor and waits for the flood which will take him off Barrow.
He works the tides more than he relies on his engine. He arrives off the
Duddon estuary 3 hours after high water drops anchor and waits for the
flood. One hour after low water he starts to creep through the tricky
entrance between sandbanks of the estuary. With the Oakdale being flat
bottomed and drawing only three foot she just floats over the sandbanks as
the tide gradually rises. Once through the entrance he drops anchor again,
has a kip, then starts the engine and motors into the bay anchoring off
Millom old quay.
I drove up to Millom on Monday. It was a wonderful sunny day and as I
approached the town down a long hill the barge could be seen long before I
got there, sitting jauntily in the middle of a massive golden sandbank in
the wide inland bay surrounded by the mountains of the Lake District. What
an idyllic spot. I parked the car on the old disused quay. There was no sign
of Dave. In fact there was no sign of anybody.
It was a long walk across the sands; he was about a quarter of a mile out. I
had to cross a little gully of water which was ankle deep, taking note that
the water was on the ebb and flowing out. The dog barked at my approach then
Dave bobbed his head out of the hatch with a 'Hello Rog, come aboard I'll
put the kettle on.' Down below the Oakdale is a place, it seems massive, the
cabins are surrounded by books with big old easy chairs and settees and
pictures of sailing ships. The big kettle was steaming away on the full
sized ancient gas stove in the galley which is situated right up in the
bows. You would think you were in a ship of Nelsons time with the massive
black oak frames festooned with ropes and lanterns and things all held
together with that nautical aroma of Stockholm Tar. It was hard to believe
that this old relic of yesteryear had only a few hours before been using the
tides, as they did, to come all the way up the Irish Sea.
We had only been sitting with our mugs of tea for a short time when Dave
said. 'I take it your staying the night' with that we looked out of the
hatch. The little gully I had paddled across less than half an hour before
was now a raging torrent and a hundred yards wide. In that short time the
tide had turned and the sea was coming in with a vengeance as it does on
that North West coast with tides up to thirty two feet. That's what happened
to those poor cockle pickers on Morecambe bay, the next bay down. And before
anyone quips that Dave is an idiot, he does have a masters ticket. But then
again Captain Smith had a masters ticket and he managed to sink the Titanic.
Roger.
KGB
<timb...@rgm8.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
<SNIP>
>I drove up to Millom on Monday. It was a wonderful sunny day and as I
>approached the town down a long hill the barge could be seen long before I
>got there, sitting jauntily in the middle of a massive golden sandbank in
>the wide inland bay surrounded by the mountains of the Lake District. What
>an idyllic spot. I parked the car on the old disused quay. There was no sign
>of Dave. In fact there was no sign of anybody.
>
>It was a long walk across the sands; he was about a quarter of a mile out. I
>had to cross a little gully of water which was ankle deep, taking note that
>the water was on the ebb and flowing out.
<SNIP>
>We had only been sitting with our mugs of tea for a short time when Dave
>said. 'I take it your staying the night' with that we looked out of the
>hatch. The little gully I had paddled across less than half an hour before
>was now a raging torrent and a hundred yards wide. In that short time the
>tide had turned and the sea was coming in with a vengeance as it does on
>that North West coast with tides up to thirty two feet. That's what happened
>to those poor cockle pickers on Morecambe bay, the next bay down.
Hi
Knowing Millom and the Duddon Estuary fairly well, I can assure you
that the Duddon Estuary is just as dangerous as Morecambe Bay. People
should NOT - repeat NOT - venture out into the estuary unless they
have a guide or a very good knowledge of local conditions.
I have heard from reliable sources that when criminals are sent to the
local prison (Haverigg near Millom and which I gather was the basis
for "Slade Prison" in the Ronnie Barker "Porridge" comedy series) they
are told in no uncertain terms that if they manage to escape they must
not under any circumstances head out across the Estuary.
I have actually walked across the Duddon Estuary from Askam (the other
side to Millom) at low tide - not escaping I hasten to add - but was
guided by Cedric Robinson the official Morecambe Bay guide whose
"duties" also include acting as the Duddon guide.
Having said that, a friend of mine was born in Askam and grew up
there. He was telling me only recently that when he was a lad, his
Askam "gang" used to walk right into the middle of the estuary at low
tide and taunt the Millom youths across the narrow deep channel in the
middle - the Millom "gang" having also walked out to the middle of the
Estuary. Apparently pitched battles used to occasionally break out
with bricks and large stones being hurled at each other. My friend
still doesn't know why nobody was ever seriously injured or drowned.
I have also heard stories (apparently true) of a chap who worked in
the offices of the K-Shoe factory in Millom and who lived in Askam.
When the tide was right, he used to tie polythene bags over his shoes
to protect them and walk home across the sands.
Regards
KGB
Drifter
Roger Murray wrote:
[a great yarn]
Wonderful story, Roger!
Of course Dave isn't an idiot. He knows exactly what he's doing and has
the experience and qualfication to back it up.
I hope you are saving these stories. With your descriptive easy flowing
style, they could become a saleable collection of short stories and an
unusual boating anecdotage.
Tony H
David Long
<timb...@rgm8.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>At the back end of last week I got some frantic texts on the mobile from the
>girl friend of a wonderful character called Dave who lives on an old Mersey
>Flat, the 'Oakdale'. Not a high rise in Bootle, but one of the fine old
>trading barges of the Mersey. Dave had apparently set off to sea complete
>with dog and ships cat.
>
>He kept the Oakdale for many years at the Maritime Museum's Albert Dock in
>Liverpool. She is the last surviving Mersey flat still afloat.
She's only a "flat" in the sense that she's taken on the nomenclature
used locally interchangeably with "barge". She's actually a wooden dumb
barge, built in 1951. Purists would say a flat properly describes the
sailing barges of the Mersey, the Weaver, and the Lancashire and North
Wales coasts. OAKDALE may have grown a sail, but she wasn't built to
sail, unlike the MOSSDALE, the 1863 flat at Ellesmere Port, which is
"afloat" according to the Museum's website, though in dire need of
extensive restoration. If we're allowed to be loose with our terms, two
other "flats" are still afloat, the BIGMERE, at Ellesmere Port, and the
SRAH ABBOTT (ex-FENMERE), which has just moved from there, and there is
also the BARMERE, which is high and dry beside the Sankey in St. Helens
at present, but is soon to move onto the Canal at Widnes. Further info:
http://www.waterways.org.uk/branch_new/manchester/web/article%20archive/a
rt003.htm
It's a great pity that the Mersey sailing flats are lost to us. To have
only the one, MOSSDALE, still in existence and in such a sad condition,
is a real shame.
<SNIP>
>
>He ended up in a North Westerly gale off Morecambe bay and was in danger off
>being blown on to the treacherous sand banks. He managed to come about which
>was difficult with her big bluff bows and run for the Ribble which is a
>treacherous river to say the least. In the pitch black of the night he
>managed to beach her on the foreshore at Lytham St Annes. The next day the
>local lifeboat re positioned him so that he would float on every tide.
>
For the official version, and a couple of pics:
http://www.legendol.freeserve.co.uk/lythrnli.html
>The Oakdale with Dave and his girl friend Adrienne, the dog and cat lived
>happily on Lytham shore, just between the high and low water marks for
>nearly eighteen months. I always thought that it added a bit of colour and a
>maritime flavour to the town's now bereft of shipping river. Dave was always
>meticulous about tidiness and kept the old barge looking spick and span,
>always painted in her house colours of yellow and black. From the shore you
>would never see garbage or bits hanging around and their washing was always
>hung on the river side of the boat and could never be seen by the very
>expensive apartments on the rather sniffy Lytham esplanade. Dave got the
>expected letter from the council telling him to remove the boat with the
>threat of legal proceedings.
>
>So just after midnight last Friday,
Thanks for bringing us up to date with his exploits.
--
David Long
Sankey Canal Restoration Society http://www.scars.org.uk/
St. Mary's http://www.geocities.com/andrew_fishburn/stmary1.html
http://www.scars.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/webcam/
Dave Croft
> >He kept the Oakdale for many years at the Maritime Museum's Albert Dock in
> >Liverpool. She is the last surviving Mersey flat still afloat.
> She's only a "flat" in the sense that she's taken on the nomenclature
> used locally interchangeably with "barge". She's actually a wooden dumb
> barge, built in 1951. Purists would say a flat properly describes the
> sailing barges of the Mersey, the Weaver, and the Lancashire and North
> Wales coasts. OAKDALE may have grown a sail, but she wasn't built to
> sail, unlike the MOSSDALE, the 1863 flat at Ellesmere Port, which is
> "afloat" according to the Museum's website, though in dire need of
> extensive restoration. If we're allowed to be loose with our terms, two
> other "flats" are still afloat, the BIGMERE, at Ellesmere Port, and the
> SRAH ABBOTT (ex-FENMERE), which has just moved from there, and there is
> also the BARMERE, which is high and dry beside the Sankey in St. Helens
> at present, but is soon to move onto the Canal at Widnes. Further info:
> http://www.waterways.org.uk/branch_new/manchester/web/article%20archive/a
> rt003.htm
> It's a great pity that the Mersey sailing flats are lost to us. To have
> only the one, MOSSDALE, still in existence and in such a sad condition,
> is a real shame.
> <SNIP>
Just to enlarge Davids URL go to
http://www.waterways.org.uk/branch_new/manchester/web/article%20archive/art003.htm
--
Dave Croft
Warrington
Simon Pooley
> style, they could become a saleable collection of short stories and an
> unusual boating anecdotage.
Hear! Hear! A lovely tale indeed.
Simon.
Gripper
"Roger Murray" <timb...@rgm8.fsnet.co.uk> wrote
<snip wonderful tale>
> So just after midnight last Friday, he lights up his paraffin navigation
> lights, up anchors, starts the Lister and using the ebb tide sets off for
> Millom, the original destination, complete with dog and cat and a
> bystander on the beach who said he would go with him.
<snippage>
what happened to the bystander ???.............
I think we should be told.......
Gripper
Martin Clark
--
Martin Clark
Internet Boaters' Database http://www.auluk.freeserve.co.uk/boats
Pennine Waterways Website http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk
Roger Murray
The last thing I would wish to do is mislead anyone or in fact your good
self with the tale of Dave's maritime exploits on the so called Mersey Flat
'Oakdale', which you have pointed out is merely a wooden dumb barge and not
really a Mersey Flat.
My intention was to relate an interesting true story of an unusual voyage,
not to get bogged down with pedantic detail. However let's try and
straighten this out.
The story came fresh from Dave's own mouth the day after it happened which I
have every reason to believe. I told him what you had said about his vessel
and I could sense her decks rising as he was about to explode. 'Tell that
David Long that he talking a lot of crap'. He retorted. I told him that you
were a big wheel with the Sankey Canal Preservation Society, and should not
say things like that, which seemed to make him worse. 'They are all to do
with theory and what they have read in books. Not one of them has ever
worked a Mersey Flat or worked with the men who used to skipper them in the
twenties or thirties. I did! Let me relate some facts.'
The Oakdale was built at Abel's of Runcorn of welsh oak and launched on
Saturday 15th September 1951. Recorded in their register as a Mersey Flat.
She was the last but one to be built, the last being the Ruth Bate.
The Oakdale was registered in Liverpool as a 'Mersey Flat. Registration no
183820'.in 1951
The Oakdale is featured as the main vessel on the cover of Mike Stammers
book on Mersey Flats. Mike Stammers is the curator of the Liverpool Maritime
Museum.
In the posting the Oakdale was never referred to as a Sailing Flat, only as
a Mersey Flat, although it did mention that there was a small sail on her.
Reason being that I actually wanted to sail her. Not because I wished to
emulate a Sailing Flat.
After he had cooled down a bit Dave went on to explain that there are three
main types of Mersey Flat. Coastal Flats, River Flats and Canal Flats.
Oakdale is a River Flat with more of a bluff bow than the coastal flat, but
she was carvel built with a slight V bottom and rounded bilges which made
her suitable for reasonable coastal work. There were many Mersey Flat
builders. They all had their little differences and idiosyncrasies which
makes it difficult to define what should and should not be.
.I seem to remember that last year The Mossdale was out of the water at
Ellesmere Port. She is in a sorry state and I would think needs a virtual
rebuild. She is not as big as the Oakdale, used be called the Ruby and was
bought by Jack Abel in 1923 and used on the Shropshire Union Canal. In fact
Dave seems to think that she was built primarily for Shropshire Union canal
use and as such would probably have never sailed, but don't hold me to this.
The other so called Mersey Flats refered to... The Bigmere, the Sarah Abbot
and the Barmere, are, according to Dave known as Dukers. The craft were
originally built for the Duke of Bridgewater for use on the Bridgewater
Canal and at a later date The Manchester Ship Canal. They are built of steel
or iron, much smaller, have straight sides and are flat bottomed and are not
Mersey Flats. So it looks as if the Oakdale, in the true sense is the only
Mersey Flat still afloat. Quite frankly I think it is a credit to Dave to
have saved this boat and to use as extensively as he does.
For and on behalf of a very rattled Dave Keenan owner and skipper of the
Mersey Flat 'Oakdale.'
Roger. Roger Murray.
"David Long" <Da...@n0ne.c0m> wrote in message
news:n2xAE2Gm...@scars.org.uk...
David Long
<donts...@home.dot> writes
http://www.seftoncoast.org.uk/index_news.html
Roger Murray
wasn't on board when I called on the boat on Monday, will ask Dave and let
you know. That is if he ever gets over his proud Oakdale being called a mere
dumb barge. Mind you I suppose from a purely technical standpoint David Long
is right, that's what it really is. A flat is just another name for a barge,
and one without a sail or engine is dumb. I suppose really and truly
narrowboats are only barges, just narrow ones, although there would be hell
on earth and on the canals if it was hinted. So lets keep a bit
individuality and colour about the place by giving them their special names.
Roger.
"Gripper" <donts...@home.dot> wrote in message
news:da1pg2$adk$1...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Roger Murray
on his intrepid voyage, and Gripper wanting to know what happened to him. I
phoned Dave this morning to find out. Evidentially the bystander was a
Canadian called Paul who was a wagon driver. He had worked the bunker boats
on the Great Lakes, was passing along the Lytham St Anne's esplanade, saw
the Oakdale out on the foreshore, thought it looked interesting and
certainly very much out of its environment, so he decided to go and have a
nosey, as we all do. Got chatting to Dave, went aboard for a cup of tea,
found the boat like some bygone dream. Dave told him he was setting off on
the tide at midnight for Millom and invited Paul to join him, and that was
it, the deed was done. He reckoned he had a most memorable experience in the
ancient art of seamanship by working the tides. His only fear was the cat,
but he got on with it in the end. His wife came over to Millon in the car to
pick him up on the morning of their arrival.
Sorry to drag on the question as to whether the Oakdale is a Mersey Flat or
not, queried by young David Long. Dave of the Oakdale is still smouldering
away about this down grading slur about his beloved vessel tucked away in
the lovely Duddon Estuary and has requested that I say a few more words
about his gallant boat, so that it is established to the world at large that
she is a genuine Mersey Flat! I take it that this ng is the world at large.
It always feels as if it is when I press the send button, even though they
say the world is getting smaller.
I think the crux of David Longs argument is that the term Mersey Flat only
applies to the sailing flats of the Mersey, the Weaver, and the Lancashire
and North Wales coasts. According to Dave which he says is according to
Abel's who built the Oakdale, the only difference was that one had a mast
and the other didn't. As sail gradually gave way to the dreaded motor, the
builders carried on building exactly the same hulls minus standing and
running rigging etc. In many cases the vessels lines were drawn out on the
yard floor in chalk as they had been for hundreds of years with no change.
Some owners insisted on a finer entry on the bow for long distance sea work
which meant they had to have more draught. Some even carried a mizzen.
There were many builders and many owners with there own differences in spec.
In vessels like the Oakdale which could be used for both river and coastal
estuary work, the bows were bluffer which apart from giving more cargo
space, meant that she was shallower draughted and could penetrate the
shallower estuaries. The hull configuration and dimensions of the Oakdale
are exactly the same as Abel's vessels built a century before. Dave has a
set of drawings for an Abel's vessel of 1873 which show the same hull
configuration and dimensions and she carried a moveable mast, gaff sail and
jib, or staysail.
Cyril Moran who was the skipper of the Mersey Flat, The Mary Burton in the
thirties, used to sail with Dave before he died. He showed him how to work
the tides with just sail and anchor by gently drifting with the flood over
sandbanks and shoal waters with the anchor just tickling the bottom, just
creating enough drag to give steerage, the bluff bows and stern sections
gave directional stability in such conditions. This is how the sailing flats
worked the tides and how sailing ships have worked for thousands of years.
The bigger sailing flats on longer distance coastal work had finer hull
entries so they could punch the tides. They were both sailing flats doing
different jobs in different conditions.
Sorry for going on so much about Mersey Flats, and I do apologise to poor
David Long if it seemed that Dave together with a little of help and
encouragement from me over manned the barricades a bit. Nothing like a good
argument! I think to be fair, from a pure technical point of view, David
Long could be right but I do like Dave of the Oakdale's proud and colourful
retorts in defence of his vessel which I think at the end of the day is
truly a Mersey Flat. God bless her.
Roger
"Gripper" <donts...@home.dot> wrote in message
news:da1pg2$adk$1...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
Tim Leech
<timb...@rgm8.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Sorry for going on so much about Mersey Flats, and I do apologise to poor
>David Long if it seemed that Dave together with a little of help and
>encouragement from me over manned the barricades a bit. Nothing like a good
>argument! I think to be fair, from a pure technical point of view, David
>Long could be right but I do like Dave of the Oakdale's proud and colourful
>retorts in defence of his vessel which I think at the end of the day is
>truly a Mersey Flat. God bless her.
>
I used to be part owner of the Beecliffe.
She was built, by Richard Dunstons of Thorne in 1925, exactly the same
as many Humber Keels had been built for sail power, including many of
the hull fittings for the rigging. She was actually built to be towed,
and as far as we could discover never actually carried sails. Many
identical vessels did, though. She was motorised in, AFAIR, 1937.
We often referred to her as a Humber Keel, partly because there was
some chance of people knowing what we meant. Her most accurate title
was probably a Sheffield Barge, but not many people outside South
Yorkshire would be able to conjure much of a picture up from that.
Anyway Humber Keel has a better ring to it <G>
I was happy with either title, though I knew the Keel probably wasn't
strictly correct.
Cheers
Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Vintage diesel engine service
Chris N Deuchar
> Sorry for going on so much about Mersey Flats, and I do apologise to poor
> David Long if it seemed that Dave together with a little of help and
> encouragement from me over manned the barricades a bit. Nothing like a good
> argument!
No, it has been fascinating.
I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
between humber keels, sloops and barges....
Chris D (eager learner - with a recently invigorated interest in all
things esturial & coastal as a result of a visit across Morecombe bay to
the Isle of Mann and return through Liverpool)
Tim Leech
wrote:
>Roger Murray wrote:
>> Sorry for going on so much about Mersey Flats, and I do apologise to poor
>> David Long if it seemed that Dave together with a little of help and
>> encouragement from me over manned the barricades a bit. Nothing like a good
>> argument!
>
>No, it has been fascinating.
>
>I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>between humber keels, sloops and barges....
>
>
You've forgotten the Billy Boys
Tim Leech
>On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:50:28 +0100, Chris N Deuchar <m...@privacy.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Roger Murray wrote:
>>> Sorry for going on so much about Mersey Flats, and I do apologise to poor
>>> David Long if it seemed that Dave together with a little of help and
>>> encouragement from me over manned the barricades a bit. Nothing like a good
>>> argument!
>>
>>No, it has been fascinating.
>>
>>I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>>between humber keels, sloops and barges....
>
>Real Humber keels have leeboards ...
So do sloops
Tim Leech
wrote:
>Roger Murray wrote:
>> Sorry for going on so much about Mersey Flats, and I do apologise to poor
>> David Long if it seemed that Dave together with a little of help and
>> encouragement from me over manned the barricades a bit. Nothing like a good
>> argument!
>
>No, it has been fascinating.
>
>I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>between humber keels, sloops and barges....
>
It wasn't unusual for the same vessel to carry both Sloop and Keel rig
at different times in its life.
Cheers
Tim Leech
>>>>I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>>>>between humber keels, sloops and barges....
>>>
>>>Real Humber keels have leeboards ...
>>
>>So do sloops
>
>and ...
The point of your comments?
Tim Leech
>On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:42:37 +0100, Tim Leech <dutto...@onetel.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:18:57 +0200, Martin <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>>>>>>between humber keels, sloops and barges....
>>>>>
>>>>>Real Humber keels have leeboards ...
>>>>
>>>>So do sloops
>>>
>>>and ...
>>
>>The point of your comments?
>
>"I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>between humber keels, sloops and barges...."
OK, you said 'proper keels have leeboards'. Indeed they do/did, when
sailing in the estuary (they were removed for canal work).
I said 'So do sloops'.
It's not a difference between them, detailed or otherwise, they both
had them (and both removed them for the canal, though sloops would
have done less canal work)
So I'm at a loss as to what you were trying to say.
Cheers
Tim Leech
wrote:
>Roger Murray wrote:
>> Sorry for going on so much about Mersey Flats, and I do apologise to poor
>> David Long if it seemed that Dave together with a little of help and
>> encouragement from me over manned the barricades a bit. Nothing like a good
>> argument!
>
>No, it has been fascinating.
>
>I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>between humber keels, sloops and barges....
>
Trying to get away from the flippant, if you are really interested
then a visit to Ferriby Sluice to see the Comrade (Keel) and Amy
Howson (Sloop) will be worthwhile. The two vessels when not out in the
river are moored side by side, and you will see that the only real
difference is in the rigging. Yes the hulls came from different yards
so there are detail differences, but not differences which identify
either as sloop or keel.
If you had been able to place the Beecliffe alongside them, as she was
during her working life, again the differences would be trivial. She
had the chain plates for the mast shrouds, leeboard brackets, and
there was evidence that she had had the mast lutchet (tabernacle) when
new. I believe a fair number of vessels were built like this in the
1920's. The traditional aft cabin was maintained (as it had been with
the Comrade and Amy Howson) when she was motorised, some others
dispensed with the aft cabin and converted it into the engine room.
Many Yorkshire barges were built on very similar lines to these, and
even in some of the bigger motor barges the likeness is apparent,
though as time went on the direct connection to sail disappeared.
Chris N Deuchar
> On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 23:30:15 +0200, Martin <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>"I look forward to a similar discussion on the detailed differences
>>between humber keels, sloops and barges...."
>
>
I think someone was trying to re-interpret my use of the word 'similar'
:-/
Chris D
Chris N Deuchar
> Trying to get away from the flippant, if you are really interested
> then a visit to Ferriby Sluice to see the Comrade (Keel) and Amy
> Howson (Sloop) will be worthwhile. The two vessels when not out in the
> river are moored side by side, and you will see that the only real
> difference is in the rigging.
<snip of interesting stuff saved for later>
Thanks for all that
I remember the Beecliffe (vaguely) from many years back - although the
context eludes me!
Chris D
Steve Gardham
Humber Keel, not a Sheffield barge. We took it out into the Humber with its
small Lister and we got her all the way from Goole to Hull with the help of
the tide. This was for the Sea Fever festival last summer in Hull. We don't
have any leaboards but we're hoping to have her in sail later in the year.
Another Gripper.
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Chris N Deuchar
gard...@hotmail.com says...
> My brother-in-law has Southcliffe and we've always referred to it as a
> Humber Keel, not a Sheffield barge.
I thought Sheffield keels were simply a 'convenient sized' variant
that would fit the locks?
Put another way, all Sheffield keels are Humber keels, but not all
Humber keels are Sheffield keels?
Chris D
--
--
ch...@deuchars.co.uk http://www.deuchars.org.uk
Author & Publisher: "A Boaters Guide to BOATING" 4-50GBP
Mixing old and new waterway techniques. ISBN 0953151204
Details: http://www.deuchars.org.uk/publication/
Tel: 0115 951 6264 Fax: 0870 131 2079
Tim Leech
<deuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <ea673cc7c7b04527...@ureader.com>,
>gard...@hotmail.com says...
>> My brother-in-law has Southcliffe and we've always referred to it as a
>> Humber Keel, not a Sheffield barge.
>
>I thought Sheffield keels were simply a 'convenient sized' variant
>that would fit the locks?
>Put another way, all Sheffield keels are Humber keels, but not all
>Humber keels are Sheffield keels?
>
Yes, but ISTR the original point was more a question of when is it a
keel, and when a barge, and can it be both at the same time. The
lineage of the Beecliffe and Southcliffe and many others is definitely
that of the Humber Keel, but is it correct to call them that when they
never actually carried sail?
To my mind there's no doubt that Beecliffe was a Sheffield barge, but
we also often referred to her as a Humber Keel partly because there's
more likelihood of others having some clue as to what we meant, also
it sounds better <g>. Whether those who worked these boats referred to
them thus I don't know. Never asked any of them when I had the
oppurtunity :-(
Chris N Deuchar
dutto...@onetel.com says...
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:42:14 +0100, Chris N Deuchar
> <deuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Put another way, all Sheffield keels are Humber keels, but not all
> >Humber keels are Sheffield keels?
>
> Yes, but ISTR the original point was more a question of when is it a
> keel, and when a barge, and can it be both at the same time. The
> lineage of the Beecliffe and Southcliffe and many others is definitely
> that of the Humber Keel, but is it correct to call them that when they
> never actually carried sail?
Point taken.
Going back to basics therefore, isn't it true to say the keel evolved
*before* inland waterways with locks appeared?
Therefore, it would be reasonable to suppose that the first 'lockable'
craft would be those 'normal' keels that could pass through those
locks and subsequent new craft would be built that would have, not
only the sailable characteristics of the keel, but also those minor
features that help in lock working?
I suppose I am saying that Sheefield barges and keels had a common
root - and their naming/typing is therefore ambiguous because their
histories are intertwined, whereas (for example) narrow boats were an
innovative design for a particular (ie narrow canal) purpose which had
no real precedent.
I was brought up by the commercial Trent and used to hear the
bargemen talking about the various craft they used in the 50s & 60s.
Barges were definitely iron or steel whereas keels could be made of
anything - even if they were motorised (ie 'motor keels' NOT
'barges'). The distinction seemed to be solely based on hull shape.
To answer your final question above, I think the answer is now 'yes' -
but may not always have been so!
lostre...@gmail.com
> Over this last few weeks there have been a few postings and comments about
> idiots or adventurers, whichever way you look at them, I like to think of
> them as the latter, who go out to sea in narrowboats and such like. Indeed I
> recently posted one about a friend who took his narrowboat out to sea at Gt
> Yarmouth finishing up as a wreck on the Norfolk shore with the good ships
> piano ending up as bits for miles up the coast.
> At the back end of last week I got some frantic texts on the mobile from the
> girl friend of a wonderful character called Dave who lives on an old Mersey
> Flat, the 'Oakdale'. Not a high rise in Bootle, but one of the fine old
> trading barges of the Mersey. Dave had apparently set off to sea complete
> with dog and ships cat.
>
> He kept the Oakdale for many years at the Maritime Museum's Albert Dock in
> very much into local maritime history virtually dug the Oakdale out of the
> mud and restored her. At one time the river Mersey was full of them, there
> were hundreds. Now the river is empty. They were the life blood of the port.
> Just as important to Liverpool as the Thames barge was to London,
> transhipping goods from the ships to small coastal ports and to inland towns
> up rivers and canals. It is said that the industrial revolution would have
> had difficulty in moving the heavy castings of the time without the Mersey
> Flat. Anyway, Dave's Mersey Flat the 'Oakdale', needed new bottom planks.
> Dave had saved enough money for the planks and nails etc but could not
> afford the dry docking. The Maritime Museum said they could not afford it
> either.
>
> Dave reckoned that if he could sail the Oakdale up to Millom on the Duddon
> estuary, just north of Walney Island on the Cumbria coast, he could do the
> job himself. He knew of some high lying sandbanks he could beach her on, on
> very high tide. He could jack her up and work on the bottom. So about two
> years ago he set off from Liverpool, down the Mersey using the ebb, out into
> the Irish Sea and headed north for Millom. His only means of propulsion, a
> little Lister, I think an HA2 and a bit of home made sail. The Lister will
> move her at about three knots in a dead calm sea, not forgetting that the
> Oakdale weighs 74 tons, is 76ft x 15.9ft.
> He ended up in a North Westerly gale off Morecambe bay and was in danger off
> being blown on to the treacherous sand banks. He managed to come about which
> was difficult with her big bluff bows and run for the Ribble which is a
> treacherous river to say the least. In the pitch black of the night he
> managed to beach her on the foreshore at Lytham St Annes. The next day the
> local lifeboat re positioned him so that he would float on every tide.
>
> happily on Lytham shore, just between the high and low water marks for
> nearly eighteen months. I always thought that it added a bit of colour and a
> maritime flavour to the town's now bereft of shipping river. Dave was always
> meticulous about tidiness and kept the old barge looking spick and span,
> always painted in her house colours of yellow and black. From the shore you
> would never see garbage or bits hanging around and their washing was always
> hung on the river side of the boat and could never be seen by the very
> expensive apartments on the rather sniffy Lytham esplanade. Dave got the
> expected letter from the council telling him to remove the boat with the
> threat of legal proceedings.
>
> lights, up anchors, starts the Lister and using the ebb tide sets off for
> Millom, the original destination, complete with dog and cat and a bystander
> 6am drops his anchor and waits for the flood which will take him off Barrow.
> He works the tides more than he relies on his engine. He arrives off the
> Duddon estuary 3 hours after high water drops anchor and waits for the
> flood. One hour after low water he starts to creep through the tricky
> entrance between sandbanks of the estuary. With the Oakdale being flat
> bottomed and drawing only three foot she just floats over the sandbanks as
> the tide gradually rises. Once through the entrance he drops anchor again,
> has a kip, then starts the engine and motors into the bay anchoring off
> Millom old quay.
>
> I drove up to Millom on Monday. It was a wonderful sunny day and as I
> approached the town down a long hill the barge could be seen long before I
> got there, sitting jauntily in the middle of a massive golden sandbank in
> the wide inland bay surrounded by the mountains of the Lake District. What
> an idyllic spot. I parked the car on the old disused quay. There was no sign
> of Dave. In fact there was no sign of anybody.
>
> It was a long walk across the sands; he was about a quarter of a mile out. I
> had to cross a little gully of water which was ankle deep, taking note that
> the water was on the ebb and flowing out. The dog barked at my approach then
> Dave bobbed his head out of the hatch with a 'Hello Rog, come aboard I'll
> put the kettle on.' Down below the Oakdale is a place, it seems massive, the
> cabins are surrounded by books with big old easy chairs and settees and
> pictures of sailing ships. The big kettle was steaming away on the full
> sized ancient gas stove in the galley which is situated right up in the
> bows. You would think you were in a ship of Nelsons time with the massive
> black oak frames festooned with ropes and lanterns and things all held
> together with that nautical aroma of Stockholm Tar. It was hard to believe
> that this old relic of yesteryear had only a few hours before been using the
> tides, as they did, to come all the way up the Irish Sea.
>
> We had only been sitting with our mugs of tea for a short time when Dave
> said. 'I take it your staying the night' with that we looked out of the
> hatch. The little gully I had paddled across less than half an hour before
> was now a raging torrent and a hundred yards wide. In that short time the
> tide had turned and the sea was coming in with a vengeance as it does on
> that North West coast with tides up to thirty two feet. That's what happened
> to those poor cockle pickers on Morecambe bay, the next bay down. And before
> anyone quips that Dave is an idiot, he does have a masters ticket. But then
> again Captain Smith had a masters ticket and he managed to sink the Titanic.
>
> Roger.
hi Dave its good to see that you and the Oakdale are still together and still afloat as the last time I saw the Oakdale was at Lytham St Annes,
we had great times down the docks Coburg and Brunswick I also remember one time when the Oakdale was in the Cocklehole the tide was going out and there was a dead seal that was between the Oakdale and the dock wall and the seal was blown up like a ballon and every time the Oakdale pressed against it, it hist and my god did it smell, we tried to help but left you to it in the end. That was a long time ago a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then hey, best wishes to you and the Oakdale and all the crew members by the way this is Kevin from the Lena