VAT (OT)

[Adrian]

>Adrian <re...@sdfg.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, the best approach is widely thought to be a uniform rate on
>> *everything* purchased. This allows the rate to be lower (because the
>> tax base is higher), and avoids the arbitrary distortions introduced
>> by having differing rates.

R C Nesbit <sp...@ukrm.net> wrote:

>Oh that's wonderfull!
>
>It just neatly ignores the fact that those on higher incomes pay
>substantially *less* tax as a % of income than the lower paid.

Why should that be the criterion to apply? I mean, a poor person now
pays a substantially higher % of his income on food than a rich one.
Does that mean the government should manipulate the market so that the
poor pay lower prices for food?

VAT is a consumption tax, so under it the average rich person pays
substantially more in tax than the average poor person, because a rich
person buys (consumes) consumes substantially more.

tin...@isbd.co.uk wrote:

>The trouble is though that it bears harder on those less able to pay.
>
>... which is why, in general, food (for example) has no VAT on it.

The typical proposal is that part of the additional revenue produced
by eliminating zero rating and exemptions should be put toward direct
financial payments to the poor, so that the poor have a net gain even
after paying standard VAT on "essentials".

"Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Widely thought by whom? Adrian?

See, for example (just from the first page of Googling "VAT base"):

http://www.ifs.org.uk/mirrleesreview/design/ch9.pdf

"For the reasons we have set out in Chapters 7 and 8, we favour a
broadening of the VAT base in the UK, applying the standard rate to a
wider range of goods."

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/2020tc/2011/04/broaden-base-vat.html

"Their view that reduced and zero ratings should be abolished is very
much the mainstream opinion in the economic literature "

Adrian
Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966

[Brian]

Adrian was thinking very hard :
One of the problems is that in this country we have lots of taxes
under different headings that don't mean anything.

Road Tax why tax running a car when the money raised doesn't go to
roads

Rates a tax on property when the size of property has no direct link to
what the money is used for.

Insurance tax, why tax insurance policies.

National Insurance
and I am sure there are others.

[Phil Cook]

Taxes are levied by the government to raise money. All tax in the UK
goes into a general pot from which the Treasury pays other government
departments. The levels of the various taxes are set to encourage some
behaviours and to discourage others.

Road tax is a misnomer, the correct term for that tax is vehicle excise
duty.
--
Phil Cook

[Arthur Marshall]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:15:56 +0100, Adrian <re...@sdfg.co.uk> wrote:

>Does that mean the government should manipulate the market so that the
>poor pay lower prices for food?

They do. Because, being poor, they can't afford the decent stuff.
That's what being poor means.

It means a shorter life and worse health.

However, if all economists now agree that everything shuold be taxed
at the same rate, and if all economists are as accurate as they have
been in the past, then it's obvously a daft thing to do.

Being an economist is like being a psychologist. Good at explaining
why it happens, appalling at working out what's going to happen next.
Arthur Marshall
nb Lord Byron's Maggot

[Mike Perkins]

On 12/07/2012 15:55, Arthur Marshall wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:15:56 +0100, Adrian <re...@sdfg.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Does that mean the government should manipulate the market so that the
>> poor pay lower prices for food?
>
> They do. Because, being poor, they can't afford the decent stuff.
> That's what being poor means.
>

It's ironic that the western population is getting heavier and more
obese each year! "Decent stuff" is usually the cheapest food in the
first place! Processed foods already attract VAT, and would have no
issues on levying VAT on meat and even higher levels of VAT on takeaways.


--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

[R C Nesbit]

Adrian spoke:

> "Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Widely thought by whom? Adrian?
>
> See, for example (just from the first page of Googling "VAT base"):
>
> http://www.ifs.org.uk/mirrleesreview/design/ch9.pdf
>
> "For the reasons we have set out in Chapters 7 and 8, we favour a
> broadening of the VAT base in the UK, applying the standard rate to a
> wider range of goods."
>
> http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/2020tc/2011/04/broaden-base-vat.html
>
> "Their view that reduced and zero ratings should be abolished is very
> much the mainstream opinion in the economic literature "

Do stop cherry-picking your quotes - this one continues...

"I’m not convinced though, and I’ll set out why here."

These are also both vested-interest pressure groups, and are therefore
among the first against the wall come the revolution!

--
Rob
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing.
If you can fake that, you've got it made

[Alex Potter]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:37:00 +0100, R C Nesbit wrote:

> These are also both vested-interest pressure groups, and are therefore
> among the first against the wall come the revolution!

I prefer piano wire and lamposts. "Pour ecourager les autres"

--
Alex

[Alex Potter]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:39:05 +0100, Phil Cook wrote:

> Road tax is a misnomer, the correct term for that tax is vehicle excise
> duty.

That topic has been done to death in the cycling newsgroup :)

--
Alex

[Dr Nick]

Adrian <re...@sdfg.co.uk> writes:

> http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/2020tc/2011/04/broaden-base-vat.html
>
> "Their view that reduced and zero ratings should be abolished is very
> much the mainstream opinion in the economic literature "

Quoting the "Taxpayer"'s Alliance in support tends to have the opposite
effect amongst those who think I'm afraid.

[Adrian]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:37:00 +0100, R C Nesbit <sp...@ukrm.net> wrote:

>Adrian spoke:

>> http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/2020tc/2011/04/broaden-base-vat.html
>>
>> "Their view that reduced and zero ratings should be abolished is very
>> much the mainstream opinion in the economic literature "
>
>Do stop cherry-picking your quotes - this one continues...
>
>"I’m not convinced though, and I’ll set out why here."

<sigh>

My recent post was in answer to the question of whether there is a
majority of informed opinion in favour of expanding the base for VAT.
I quoted from a couple of web sites answering in the affirmative.

I included the Taxpayers Alliance quote to show that there is support
for the existence of that majority among both pro and anti. Of course
the Alliance is anti, but that wasn't the immediate point at issue,
which is why I did not quote its next sentence.

Keep up at the back there!

Adrian

PS Quoting is almost always cherry picking -- i.e. getting the fruit
without also getting a bunch of leaves and twigs -- and a good thing
too.

[Phil Cook]

Shucks, found out! :-)


--
Phil Cook

[Nicholas D. Richards]

In article <87629s3...@temporary-address.org.uk>, Dr Nick <nospam-
4...@temporary-address.org.uk> on Thu, 12 Jul 2012 at 19:40:05 awoke
Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote

And allied to that great intellectual group The Tea Party.


--
Nicholas David Richards -

"Oů sont les neiges d'antan?"