Overloaded Boats
Rob Dean
of the owners of a cruiser built for 6 which capsized with 16 on board
on the Severn resulting in a drowning. If not see:
This is a fairly obvious case of stupidity (it will be for a court to
decide if it was manslaughter). But how does one know the safe
loading of a boat? Presumably a heavier narrowboat would take a lot
of overloading before capsizing. Does the BSS or BW/EA have anything
to say on the subject? My insurance document says I shouldn't have
more on the boat than it is designed to carry. But what does that
mean? There's little logic in restricting it to the number of berths
because that can be varied.
Any views?
Rob Dean
NB Pukeko
Frouds Bridge, K&A
BSS Office
others in relation to overloading or stability. For hire boats and
small passenger craft we look at weedhatches, hull openings and water
intakes. These are featured in Part Ten of the Guide and it is promoted
as good advice to private owners.
Rob@BSS Office
Go boating - Stay safe
Roy Collingwood
"BSS Office" <bss.en...@boatsafetyscheme.com>
wrote in message
news:1112861796....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
normal boat liecence covers I think 12
then it becomes a passenger boat
roy
BSS Office
code',explains boats in scope, as do the navigation authorities'
licensing/registration terms and conditions. Boats carrying over 12
passengers for 'reward' (see precise text in the MCA code -
www.mcga.gov.uk) are covered by MCA Class V code.
Rob@BSS Office
Go boating - stay safe
Drifter
Yes.... I have a view. It appears, that no matter what the size or
build of boat, legally 12 leisure seeking passengers, including the
crew, can be carried. This is obviously a 'grey area' that needs to be
more defined. 12 people on a 70ft steel narrowboat is a completely
different proposition to 12 people on a small grp cruiser.
As far as paying passengers is concerned, up to 12 passengers can be
carried, plus any number of babes in arms and any number of crew, at
the skipper's discretion, on any size or build of boat provided certain
safety features are in place [life-rings, fire extinguishers, fire
ptotection, freeboard etc].
For paying passenger-carrying craft that carry more than 12 passengers
stringent MCA regulations apply.
MCA regulations will soon also apply to smaller paying passenger craft,
and probably later to hire craft too. As far as I am concerned, the
sooner the better. Any operator who objects to these new regs in
principle must have something to hide [although some of the proposals
may be too stringent for inland waterway use at this time. I am trying
to get some of these proposals amended.]
Tony H
tripping out on the Basy
Ann
people on board is? I know Gamebird has. It is 6 people which is
reasonable a she is only 26 feet short,
Ann
--
Ann and Iain Street
NB Gamebird; One tenth NB Copperkins11
Web site http://www.nbgamebird.co.uk
Scottish Inland Waterways Association - http://www.siwa.org.uk
Bridge 19-40 Canal Society - http://www.bridge19-40.org.uk
Roy Collingwood
"Chris Garner" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:memo.20050407150845.2732E@chrisrgarner@tiscali.co.uk.tiscali.co.uk...
> In article <3bkj9qF...@individual.net>,
ann.s...@btinternet.com
> (Ann) wrote:
>
> > a plate stating what the maximum permitted
number of
> > people on board is? I know Gamebird has. It
is 6 people which is
> > reasonable a she is only 26 feet short,
>
mandatory.
>
> Chris Garner
>
i am sure i saw it on my licence application small
print
roy
Angela Jefferies
"BSS Office" <bss.en...@boatsafetyscheme.com> wrote:
Our boat is 70' long and can sleep two in a fixed double and two in a
converted dinette double. It has a plate in the cratch saying it can
take four people.
Three years ago six of us hired a 70' narrowboat and it was supposed to
sleep up to twelve. Quite where all of those people would be in the
daytime is an interesting question, since most of the boat was taken up
with bunks.
But both of the above boats are 70'. I asked the person who did our
initial safety certificate what he thought about us taking four friends
out on the baot for the day, as well as ourselves, and he said it was
not a problem. He felt our boatfitter was being over cautious. But one
interesting thing he did say was that one of the tests that is sometimes
done on a boat is to put everyone on one side, say on the gunwhale, to
see how the boat can take the weight.
--
Angela Jefferies
Nb Liberty Belle
amicus
brianH
"Roy Collingwood" <r...@roycollingwood.co.uk> wrote in message
news:U7CdnbDqzuf...@brightview.com...
If it's a newish private boat that is covered by the Recreational Craft
Directive then it will/should be in the owners manual
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants
Steve King
wrote:
>MCA regulations will soon also apply to smaller paying passenger craft,
There is a certain inevitability about it, I agree.
>and probably later to hire craft too.
...and then to private boats, then to dinghies and canoes, then to
anglers, towpath walkers, those gazing at the canal from their car...?
> As far as I am concerned, the
>sooner the better.
Your view which you have every right to hold.
> Any operator who objects to these new regs in
>principle must have something to hide
Like their wallet, for a start? With annual inspection fees for an MCA
trip boat at around £400, plus the cost of administration and the
provision of all the extra safety equipment to go with it. Then the
cost of training and testing all the steerers for the Boatmasters
Licence (is it still £102 per test?). These are no small concerns for
those trying to make a living with a small trip boat (and I speak from
experience, on both sides of the MCA fence). Is it really desirable to
put some of these operators out of business and prevent the travelling
public taking trips in certain places >just in case< there might be an
accident? Let us not forget that an accident is the last thing a trip
boat operator needs for his future business, and remember that the
Marchioness accident in 1989 affected those on the canals as well, not
just the Thames, causing a downturn in business (!). Further, my
business is my livelihood and I rate the safe operation of my boat
paramount, and I resent the suggestion that because I see no benefit
in MCA certification that I have something to hide.
>some of the proposals
>may be too stringent for inland waterway use at this time.
Ah, you have at least noticed the scarcity of accidents involving
boats carrying 12 or less passengers then (we're not including private
boats here of course, like the accident first mentioned).
In practice, if there were un-safe trip boats recklessy risking
passenger's lives on a daily basis with a commensurate death toll
there might be a case for more legislation, but I certainly haven't
found the figures to justify such an extension of red tape. 3,500
people die each year in road accidents - how many people died while
taking a trip on a 12-seat trip boat last year? Any at all? So where
is the justification for more MCA power? The 12 passenger maximum for
un-inspected boats is a quite reasonable interim between freedom and
controls, all things considered, and let's not hasten its demise.
The additional safety to be achieved if the MCA controls 12-passenger
trip boats is entirely questionable. The expense and the resulting
further incursion of the State into our lives is unfortunately not.
> I am trying
>to get some of these proposals amended.]
Thankyou.
Steve
s...@navvy.freeserve.co.uk
snipped
>
> In practice, if there were un-safe trip boats recklessy risking
> passenger's lives on a daily basis with a commensurate death toll
> there might be a case for more legislation, but I certainly haven't
> found the figures to justify such an extension of red tape. 3,500
> people die each year in road accidents - how many people died while
> taking a trip on a 12-seat trip boat last year? Any at all? So where
> is the justification for more MCA power? The 12 passenger maximum for
> un-inspected boats is a quite reasonable interim between freedom and
> controls, all things considered, and let's not hasten its demise.
>
> The additional safety to be achieved if the MCA controls 12-passenger
> trip boats is entirely questionable. The expense and the resulting
> further incursion of the State into our lives is unfortunately not.
>
> > I am trying
> >to get some of these proposals amended.]
>
> Thankyou.
> Steve
Why aren't cars banned???? They are clearly more dangerous than a lot of
things that are deemed unsafe for us to use.
Sue nb Nackered Navvy
brianH
"Angela Jefferies" <canal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:canalhopper-9829...@individual.net...
> In article <1112863423.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "BSS Office" <bss.en...@boatsafetyscheme.com> wrote:
>
>> The MCA Small Passenger Boat code, often called 'the less than 12
>> code',explains boats in scope, as do the navigation authorities'
>> licensing/registration terms and conditions. Boats carrying over 12
>> passengers for 'reward' (see precise text in the MCA code -
>> www.mcga.gov.uk) are covered by MCA Class V code.
>> Rob@BSS Office
>> Go boating - stay safe
>>
>
> Our boat is 70' long and can sleep two in a fixed double and two in a
> converted dinette double. It has a plate in the cratch saying it can
> take four people.
>
>
> Three years ago six of us hired a 70' narrowboat and it was supposed to
> sleep up to twelve.
>
> But both of the above boats are 70'. I asked the person who did our
> initial safety certificate what he thought about us taking four friends
> out on the baot for the day, as well as ourselves, and he said it was
> not a problem. He felt our boatfitter was being over cautious.
Your right, the builder decides how many people the boat can carry and
declares it in the RCD information. If you have 5 onboard, officially you
are overloaded and the insurance company would be quite right to say you had
more people on board than the boat was designed for. I bet if you had had
two more bunks fitted when the boat was built the builder would have put 6
on your CE plate and not made any changes to ballast or freeboard.
Ron Jones
> In article <1112863423.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "BSS Office" <bss.en...@boatsafetyscheme.com> wrote:
>
>> The MCA Small Passenger Boat code, often called 'the less than 12
>> code',explains boats in scope, as do the navigation authorities'
>> licensing/registration terms and conditions. Boats carrying over 12
>> passengers for 'reward' (see precise text in the MCA code -
>> www.mcga.gov.uk) are covered by MCA Class V code.
>> Rob@BSS Office
>> Go boating - stay safe
>>
>
> Our boat is 70' long and can sleep two in a fixed double and two in a
> converted dinette double. It has a plate in the cratch saying it can
> take four people.
>
>
> Three years ago six of us hired a 70' narrowboat and it was supposed
> to sleep up to twelve. Quite where all of those people would be in the
> daytime is an interesting question, since most of the boat was taken
> up with bunks.
>
>
Done that. Boat from, IIRC, Willow Wren Kerns (probably changed name by
now) at Middlewitch. 12 on board. One at tiller end (was usually me), 2-3
in bow, 2-4 sunbathing on roof, rest inside somewhere. But very useful when
you get to a flight of locks.... ;-)
--
--
Ron Jones
Don't repeat history, see unreported near misses in chemical lab/plant
at http://www.crhf.org.uk
Drifter
I note your comments with interest, Steve, and I will certainly take
them into account... should the MCA agree that we have a voice in the
matter at national level. I am working at at it.
At the moment we are liable to be regulated by those who have little
experience of inland waterways public trip boat operation, and coastal
rules are liable to be applied to us. This would be a ludicrous
situation.
Tony H
Ann
"Drifter" <thedr...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112923344.2...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Steve King wrote:
> On 7 Apr 2005 03:04:10 -0700, "Drifter" <thedr...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >MCA regulations will soon also apply to smaller paying passenger
craft,
>
I note your comments with interest, Steve, and I will certainly take
them into account... should the MCA agree that we have a voice in the
matter at national level. I am working at at it.
At the moment we are liable to be regulated by those who have little
experience of inland waterways public trip boat operation, and coastal
rules are liable to be applied to us. --
Tony H
It was disappointing to note that when the MCA published it's consultation
document for small passenger boats on inland waterways, we were the ONLY
canal society in the whole of the UK to respond! The other responses were
all from organisations like the IWA. As most small passenger boats are run
by canal societies I would have thought they would have something to say on
the proposals.
Ann
--
Ann Street
Chairman
Bridge 19-40 Canal Society
Tel/Fax 01506 417685
web site www.bridge19-40.org.uk
Tim Leech
wrote:
>
>I note your comments with interest, Steve, and I will certainly take
>them into account... should the MCA agree that we have a voice in the
>matter at national level. I am working at at it.
>
>At the moment we are liable to be regulated by those who have little
>experience of inland waterways public trip boat operation, and coastal
>rules are liable to be applied to us. This would be a ludicrous
>situation.
>
It always used to be like that ( remember BOT trip boat inspections
from 35 years ago, some were a bit farcical) but surely by now there's
plenty of experience within the MCA system of larger narrow canal trip
boats?
Cheers
Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Vintage diesel engine service
speedy
"Ann" <ann.s...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3bkj9qF...@individual.net...
> Do boats not have a plate stating what the maximum permitted number of
> people on board is? I know Gamebird has. It is 6 people which is
> reasonable a she is only 26 feet short,
>
> Ann
> NB Gamebird; One tenth NB Copperkins11
> Web site http://www.nbgamebird.co.uk
> Scottish Inland Waterways Association - http://www.siwa.org.uk
> Bridge 19-40 Canal Society - http://www.bridge19-40.org.uk
>
Those that haven't got broken, that is.......
I've found that with six people on board Hailey Wood (30foot Springer),
progress is noticably slower, and the boat noticably deeper in the water,
but not much change in stability. "Stability - what stability - on a
vee-bottomed boat? Must be joking!"
Their are just two berths (were at one time three), so I take it that four
is a comnfortable complement (plus dog if necessary!)
Dave n.b.Hailey Wood.
Drifter
Tim Leech wrote:
> On 7 Apr 2005 18:22:24 -0700, "Drifter" <thedr...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >I note your comments with interest, Steve, and I will certainly take
> >them into account... should the MCA agree that we have a voice in
the
> >matter at national level. I am working at at it.
> >
> >At the moment we are liable to be regulated by those who have little
> >experience of inland waterways public trip boat operation, and
coastal
> >rules are liable to be applied to us. This would be a ludicrous
> >situation.
> >
>
> It always used to be like that ( remember BOT trip boat inspections
> from 35 years ago, some were a bit farcical) but surely by now
there's
> plenty of experience within the MCA system of larger narrow canal
trip
> boats?
>
You would think so, Tim. I was invited to:
THE MARINE SAFETY CO-ORDINATING COMMITTEE (MSCC)MEETING,
HELD ON THURSDAY 2 DECEMBER 2004
The attendance list below answers your question.
We need a voice or three:
MCA
Paul Jackson Director of Standards (Chairman)
John Astbury Director Operations
Roger Spence Deputy Director (Standards)
Tom Elder East of England Region (for Bill McFadyen, Regional
Director)
Elgan Lloyd Wales and West of England Region (for Frank Duffin,
Regional Director)
Alistair Struthers Scotland and Northern Ireland Region (for Mike
Comerford, Regional Director)
Julie Carlton Inland Waterways Safety - Secretary
Helen Sharples Inland Waterways Safety - Assistant Secretary
Other:
Inspector John Watts Association of Chief Police Officers
Nick Parker British Marine Federation
Aidan Duffy British Ports Association
Mike Barrett British Waterways
Keith French Passenger Boat Association (representing DPSSG)
John Redmond Environment Agency
John Baylis Inland Waterways Association
Kevin Mowat Local Government Association - Torbay Harbour Office
Jack Bisset National Parks Association (Loch Lomond and Trossachs
National Park)
Alan Graveson NUMAST
Julian Parkes Port of London Authority
Peter Cornall RoSPA
James Stevens Royal Yachting Association
Peter Bradley Royal National Lifeboat Institution
Peter Chennell Royal National Lifeboat Institution
Philip Holliday UK Major Ports Group
Guest
Tony Haynes National Association of Boat Owners (NABO)
Apologies
Stephen Bligh MCA Chief Executive
Mike Comerford: MCA Regional Director Scotland and Northern Ireland
Region (represented by Alistair Struthers)
Frank Duffin MCA Regional Director Wales and West of England Region
(represented by Elgan Lloyd)
Bill McFadyen MCA Regional Director, East of England Region
(represented by Tom Elder)
Peter Brown MCA Prevention Manager, RAP Branch
Ian White British Waterways Director of Technical Development and AINA
Chairman (represented by Mike Barrett)
Alan Riddet Chief and Assistant Chief Fire Officers Association
Francis Power Environment Agency
Steve Todd National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers
Rr Admiral Bruce Richardson - Port of London Authority (represented
by Julian Parkes)
Michael Vlasto RNLI (represented by Peter Bradley)
Andrew MacLaren Scottish Executive
Graham Murfet Transport and General Workers Union
Captain D Glass Trinity Lighthouse Services
John Dempster UK MPG (represented by Philip Holliday)
Drifter
martin wrote:
> Don't you need a specific license to carry more than 12 passengers?
You do if they're paying passengers. If they're not, then more than 12
passengers shouldn't be there.
Tony H
Drifter
Ann wrote:
> Do boats not have a plate stating what the maximum permitted number
of
> people on board is? I know Gamebird has. It is 6 people which is
> reasonable a she is only 26 feet short,
>
As I understand it [and I would like to be wrong] a manufacturer's
recommendation or 'plate' is not an inforceable regulation.
So, the manufacturer designs and builds a boat for 4 people and you put
12 aboard, you are still legit.... though your insurance might be
invalid, and you might be liable if, God forbid, somebody drowns due to
overloading.
Tony H
Allan Jones
Assuming 12 passengers, how many additional people on a 70' narrowboat can
be counted as "crew" ?
I suppose you could consider at least a steerer, a bow rope operative, a
stern rope operative, a bow lookout, a passenger safety officer, a cook, an
assistant cook, a navigator, 2 lock wheelers, a captain, and a first mate.
That's 12 more.
Of course you don't need quite as many crew when you're working
single-handed.
Allan
Drifter
Allan Jones wrote:
> "Drifter" <thedr...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1112978985....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > martin wrote:
> >> Don't you need a specific license to carry more than 12
passengers?
> >
> > You do if they're paying passengers. If they're not, then more than
12
> > passengers shouldn't be there.
> >
> > Tony H
> >
>
> Assuming 12 passengers, how many additional people on a 70'
narrowboat can
> be counted as "crew" ?
>
As it is at present, crew on a paying-passenger trip boat are
additional to the 12. On a leisure or hire boat they are inclusive.
Tony H
Dave Mayall
wrote:
I know of a case (a few years back) where MCA accepted that a charity
leisure craft could have 2 crew in addition to 12 passengers.
--
Dave Mayall
brianH
"martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:9srd511tfclm2rc80...@4ax.com...
> On 8 Apr 2005 09:49:45 -0700, "Drifter" <thedr...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>martin wrote:
>>> Don't you need a specific license to carry more than 12 passengers?
>>
>
> Years ago I sailed on a sail training ship in the Mediterranean. At
> every stop in Italy all 36 of us had to sign as crew in triplicate for
> the port officials.
We don't do that sort of thing in Britain , we play by the rules you know
Brian J Goggin
<sot17...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Assuming 12 passengers, how many additional people on a 70' narrowboat can
>be counted as "crew" ?
>
>I suppose you could consider at least a steerer, a bow rope operative, a
>stern rope operative, a bow lookout, a passenger safety officer, a cook, an
>assistant cook, a navigator, 2 lock wheelers, a captain, and a first mate.
>That's 12 more.
You forgot the First and Second Engineers, the Engine-room Artificers
and the Stokers.
Also the Bosun tight and the midshipmite and the crew of the Captain's
gig.
bjg
Richard Edwards
There was only ten of the "Nancy's" men said here! to the Muster roll.
There was me and the cook and the Captain Bold and the Mate of the
Nancy Brig
plus those aforementioned - sounds as if this leaves room for two
more!
You and A.N. Other reciting all day???
Richard
Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S
Molly Mockford
<g3sd51haeu87dd27r...@4ax.com>:
>On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:11:24 +0000 (UTC), "Allan Jones"
><sot17...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>I suppose you could consider at least a steerer, a bow rope operative, a
>>stern rope operative, a bow lookout, a passenger safety officer, a cook, an
>>assistant cook, a navigator, 2 lock wheelers, a captain, and a first mate.
>>That's 12 more.
>
>and you need enough for three watches!
Oh, you don't need much for three watches. I get e-mails every day
offering them to me for a pittance.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Ann
"Dave Mayall" <david....@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sdqd511elu110ql0a...@news.individual.net...
The MCA Inland Waterways Small passenger Boat Code doesn't actually say how
many crew are allowed but it does say that they must be over 16 and if the
skipper or any crew is under 18 a risk assessment has to be carried out,
Ann
Alastair
>
>What do you think UK sail training ships do?
>--
>Martin
Float?
--
Alastair
MatSav
<canal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Three years ago six of us hired a 70' narrowboat and it was supposed to
>sleep up to twelve. Quite where all of those people would be in the
>daytime is an interesting question, since most of the boat was taken up
>with bunks.
The Community Boat (70ft) I use [1] can sleep 12 on board. Keep the
crew occupied with galley duties and lock wheeling, even when on the
Paddington Arm of the GU :-)
--
MatSav
Adrian Stott
<myinitialsATmyorganization.ie> wrote:
Brian, now you've got me worrying about catering regulations.
Adrian