Paint costs
Phil Speight
I`m curious to know why it is that the price of paint is always a factor
when the group discuss the choices available.I`m not being any other than
genuinley interested to hear people`s ( sensible ) views - and for obvious
reasons.
I appreciate that many of us struggle to finance the maintenance of our
boats - believe me I`m not getting rich
whatever some might think , although I work very hard.
Not all of us who contribute to the group are skint though.
It seems to me that if one spent ,say, £150.00 on inferior materials there`s
not much of a saving if the same quantity of good paint could be had for
£250.00 . ( These figures are purely arbitrary - the proportion is accurate
enough
but doesn`t account for the size of boat or the number of coats . ) I know a
hundred quid is a significant amount-
but boats aren`t cheap and neither is owning one if you`re
legitimate.So why the desperate attempts to save such relatively small
amounts of money? Put it another way.
Why , if you have sourced a paint to meet some very specific
parameters , and 2.5 litres would be sufficient at maybe
£20.00 per litre , would so many boat owners compromise their requirements
by using something less suitable to save £20.00 ? Do people assume that the
price difference is all extra profit for the supplier, or do they feel that
they wouldn`t actually derive any benefit from the extra quality of the more
expensive product?
Try to resist going for my throat here chaps - I`m not
looking for a fight , I`m genuinley interested . We have been debating
introducing a less expensive paint into
the Craftmaster range for some time ( the groundwork is all done ) and,
while I don`t think I want to do it , a bit of research within the group
may be worthwhile - providing nobody resents my asking..
Cheers
Phil
Ken Ketchup
cheaper range. The trouble with boats of the age mine is, is that it is
often impossible to know what has gone on before. Unless I wanted to go to
the lengths of cleaning the lot off and starting from scratch, it is not
always that sensible economic advantage to use top grade paint. In fact
there could be a fair chance of it coming off after a few months if the
surface it is going on is not perfect. Boats like mine are relatively easy
to paint and are likely get painted more often than a steel narrow boat
(note the politeness in terms). In these circumstances I would be
appreciative of a less expensive paint that was, however, superior to the
purpose, than the commonly used compromises.
In fact when I first got my Norman, I rubbed the lot down very carefully and
prepared what I thought was a good surface although not down to the gelcoat.
I then spent a good few bob on International prekote and brightside. The
finished job looked cracking but has now started to peel and flake about
15 - 18 months after so I'm not so chuffed with that.
Trevor
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Phil Rushton
"Phil Speight" <craftm...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:chfbr9$886$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> Yo ( as it were )
> I`m curious to know why it is that the price of paint is always a factor
> when the group discuss the choices available.I`m not being any other than
> genuinley interested to hear people`s ( sensible ) views - and for obvious
> reasons.
> I appreciate that many of us struggle to finance the maintenance of our
> boats - believe me I`m not getting rich
> whatever some might think , although I work very hard.
> Not all of us who contribute to the group are skint though.
> It seems to me that if one spent ,say, £150.00 on inferior materials
there`s
> not much of a saving if the same quantity of good paint could be had for
> £250.00 . ( These figures are purely arbitrary - the proportion is
accurate
> enough
<snip>
That has long been something that has puzzled me, Phil.
There are frequent discussions on here about the price of
red diesel etc. Considering that most boats probably use
only one litre per hour, it is surely one of the cheapest
consumables in boating.
Likewise if anyone is embarking on a re-paint themselves it
surely makes sense to use a good quality paint rather than
try to save a few quid on something that *might* do the job.
BTW Phil. A short time ago I was introduced to Owatrol Oil
as a paint additive and rust preventer. Have you any
experiences of this product and would you recommend its
use with Craftsman paints?
Cheers
Phil
Peter A Forbes
<craftm...@btconnect.com> wrote:
>Yo ( as it were )
>I`m curious to know why it is that the price of paint is always a factor
>when the group discuss the choices available.I`m not being any other than
>genuinley interested to hear people`s ( sensible ) views - and for obvious
>reasons.
<snipped>
>Cheers
>Phil
>
I think it applies not just to paint but to a whole range of other items as
well.
People will always try and find a cheaper option because folklore tells them
they can. Shops like B&Q and Focus have their own range of household paints
which are on the shelves at a discount to the likes of Crown and Dulux, and you
can find that in nearly all commodities.
We have always tried to err on the quality side with our engines and the
trolleys, preferring shot blasting and zinc spray before powder coating, but not
everyone has the facility available and I can understand the long faces when
they try a local supplier and get quoted a horrific price for the job.
Painting a boat is a bit specialist, while the average owner is not.
Haven't seen you since the Wakefield National ... :-))
Peter
.
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
die...@easynet.co.uk
Engine pages for preservation info:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
Phil Speight
it says on the tin that you can go as far as 50% . That`s a terrifying
amount - it may well contain properties that keep steel protected but no
pigment could hope to perform well at that level of dilution. That`s it`s
only fault - it tempts people to overdo it in pursuit of a finish.Use it
carefully by all means in Craftmaster paint - or use our own PPA which is a
chemical rather than an oil.
Phil
"Phil Rushton" <can...@waterunderthebridge.com> wrote in message
news:413b3e50$0$29956$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Phil Rushton
> Owatrol is brilliant provided you`re not tempted to use too much . I
believe
> it says on the tin that you can go as far as 50% . That`s a terrifying
> amount - it may well contain properties that keep steel protected but no
> pigment could hope to perform well at that level of dilution. That`s it`s
> only fault - it tempts people to overdo it in pursuit of a finish.Use it
> carefully by all means in Craftmaster paint - or use our own PPA which is
a
> chemical rather than an oil.
Thanks for that information, Phil.
I am using Blakes paints on Why Worry - only because their colours were
the original paint scheme on Why Worry.
If you have anything to match Choda, Warm Crème and Pillar Box Red I
would be tempted to change when I re-paint soon.
Cheers
Phil
Pete C
<craftm...@btconnect.com> wrote:
<snip stuff about paint>
I've always wondered why people paint the hull with bitumen, when
stuff like epoxy is available. It might have worked for Noah, but his
boat only needed to stay afloat for 40 days (and nights).
cheers,
Pete.
timleech
wrote:
Because there is a huge difference in the initial overall cost, it's
not just the cost of the materials.
Most epoxies have to be applied to grit blasted steel to be sure of
getting the full benefit, and there are greater environmental/health &
safety issues with two-pack paints than with ordinary bitumen paints,
plus similar issues over the grit blasting. To my mind it should
really only be done by yards which are properly set up to do it
regularly, and which have these issues sorted.
On the more general paint cost issue which Phil raises, I feel he's
perhaps being a little bit disingenuous.
Of course cost is an issue for everyone, whether it's paint or a new
fridge or diesel. I was brought up with the belief that buying the
best you can afford (of anything) usually works out cheaper in the
long run, but that doesn't mean we can all afford the best of
everything all the time.
If you're paying someone a proper rate to paint your boat for you,
then an extra hundred pounds or so for the best paint is neither here
nor there. If you're doing it yourself (often because you can't afford
to pay someone else) and regard your time as free, then it becomes a
big proportion of the cost, and of course will have to be considered.
Another point is that not everyone wants a super-high-gloss coach
finish. Someone mentioned Blakes paints, these seem to me to be
respectable paints which should serve those people adequately, as I'm
sure would a number of others (no connection etc., don't shout at me
if yours falls off <g>)
Cheers
Tim
Tim Leech
Dutton Dry-Dock
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Phil Speight
can`t think that I in any way have.
That said neither would I consider the one mentioned a cheapalternative to
ours or anyone elses.Although it is supplied in smaller tins than
Craftmaster the current published retail price equates to something over
£19.00 per litre.This brings it within 10%
of at least two other brand`s supposedly "expensive "
products. And why not - it`s OK paint.
So - if we produced a good solid paint that didn`t give the level of finish
that a good painter can achieve with our standard enamel and didn`t perhaps
keep it`s full
colour as long would it sell ? It would certainly cost less than £17.00 per
litre to match it`s direct competition.
My worry is that we would finish up with people complaining that it wasn`t
as good as the standard paint
and , worse , we`d have people using the cheaper one and " forgetting " to
mention that to their customers........
or maybe I`m getting cynical.
Phil
"timleech" <timl...@dutondok.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:c16oj09m9lor1dmdb...@4ax.com...
Phil Speight
his point entirely . My query always was
" why do people who aren`t constrained by price still
cut corners to save a few quid?"
Cheers
Philnews:chhd87$kr3$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
timleech
<craftm...@btconnect.com> wrote:
>I would not wish to imply any criticism of any such excellent paint and
>can`t think that I in any way have.
I didn't suggest you had <g>
timleech
<craftm...@btconnect.com> wrote:
>Forgot to say............. Tim`s quite right about the cost thing - I take
>his point entirely . My query always was
>" why do people who aren`t constrained by price still
>cut corners to save a few quid?"
Remember that a fair proportion of those with money to spare have
achieved that position by holding on tight to their cash <g>
Surely you've noticed that it's often harder to get a proper price
paid for a job from those who you might think don't need to worry
about it, than from those who perhaps have just enough?
Pete C
<timl...@dutondok.u-net.com> wrote:
>>I've always wondered why people paint the hull with bitumen, when
>>stuff like epoxy is available. It might have worked for Noah, but his
>>boat only needed to stay afloat for 40 days (and nights).
>>
>
>Because there is a huge difference in the initial overall cost, it's
>not just the cost of the materials.
>Most epoxies have to be applied to grit blasted steel to be sure of
>getting the full benefit, and there are greater environmental/health &
>safety issues with two-pack paints than with ordinary bitumen paints,
>plus similar issues over the grit blasting. To my mind it should
>really only be done by yards which are properly set up to do it
>regularly, and which have these issues sorted.
Fair enough, I just had ordinary epoxy or coal tar epoxy in mind which
can be applied by roller and isn't toxic as long as you keep it off
your skin and work in a well ventilated place.
Another coating is a polyurethane like POR-15 and Bondaglass G4. These
can probably be applied after wirebrushing and degreasing the hull and
treating with an etch primer.
If bitumen was applied to steel without the millscale being removed
that would be asking for it so the above extra two steps aren't that
much hassle.
Ideally a hull would have an extra thick baseplate but these days with
high steel prices it's not that affordable.
If a hull is going to cost 10-12k to make then an extra 1k on
protecting it isn't a bad idea IMHO.
cheers,
Pete.
Chris N Deuchar
> wrote:
>
>>I've always wondered why people paint the hull with bitumen, when
>>stuff like epoxy is available. It might have worked for Noah, but his
>>boat only needed to stay afloat for 40 days (and nights).
Bitumen is appalling stuff for boats because it dissolves fairly readily
in the slightest trace of detergent or oil on the water. The ONLY stuff
to use is coal tar. This is not so readily obtainable as it was but is
still very cheap and will last equally as long as any other product -
including two packs!
In the next month I will be adding new pages to the Historic Narrow Boat
Owners Club site ( http://www.hnboc.org.uk )on which I intend to place
details of all specialist suppliers - and services. If anybody would
like details adding then email the webmaster using the link provided there.
HTH
Chris D
--
The Deuchars. Tel(work):0115 951 6264
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk
news de
Hi Phil
I've only just decided to delurk and reply to this one but having given it a
bit
of thought I have concluded that the main reason for using cheaper paint is
that
the stone throwers can spoil any paint. It pains me less if the paint is
cheap as
massive GBP signs don't flash before my eyes when I think of the cost of
repairing
the damage. A lower cost alternative in these harsh times therefore makes
sense.
I would love to have my boat painted by you but the thought of not using it
to
protect it from damage is just not worth it.
Les
NB Moments
Ps Lady Elgar still looks quite good but the ravages of use are beginning to
show
and I believe she was one of yours.
klog
<snip>
> If bitumen was applied to steel without the millscale being removed
> that would be asking for it so the above extra two steps aren't that
> much hassle.
Just out of curiosity... at which thickness of steel sheet or plate is
it supplied hot-rolled (ie potentially with millscale)?
Maybe I've just answered my own question - is "sheet" always
cold-rolled??
I've certainly noticed shiny new hulls being built.
Geoff (no bitumen on my plastic)
Steve
Before repainting Bream earlier this year I looked at every make I could
find. I quickly eliminated a couple of them as the choice of colours was not
what I wanted. I then spoke to a couple of suppliers and looked at some
boats painted with each make. I settled on International, but after putting
on a couple of coats I didn't like the green so bought a Mason's colour
which I did like when I used it before. I now have the boat in Mason's green
and yellow, International red on the sides, the infamous Wickes garage floor
paint on the roof and bitumen on the hull. Other than one old duff can of
bitumen which didn't stick and meant parts of the hull had to be redone
after I'd finished, I'm happy. (Still need the signwriting doing though.)
I'm happy to spend more money IF I NEED TO to get the job done right but if
I find a cheaper option which is just as good, I'll go with it. The Wickes
paint is a good illustration of this. I tried it three or four years ago
on a small area to see if it was as good as various people had said and IMO
it was, so I've used it twice on the roof and decks since then. It also
touches up brilliantly after I've gouged it with the boat hook! The one I
would probably NOT use again is the International red which is almost
translucent and even after 5 coats showed up minor variations in the colour
of the undercoat which I wrongly thought wouldn't matter. I still like
Mason's, having used that before but it's so hard to find these days. More
than one person told me it's no good since they were taken over, but I found
it to be fine for my purpose.
As a relative novice at this, one of the perceptions I have picked up
(and I may well be wrong about this) is that some of the most expensive
paints have to be used exactly right or the result is worse than if you had
used a cheaper option and got it a bit wrong. Bit like using one-coat or
quick drying gloss around the house, instead of the real thing I guess.
Having said that, I'm interested in where you perceive there would be a
market for a cheap version of your paint. I can't imagine ever painting my
boat with something that even the supplier said was second best. On the
other hand (and re-reading my previous paragraph) I would be tempted by
something easy to use and cheaper, even if the result was not quite perfect
by professional standards.
HTH
Steve - NB Bream
Phil Speight
simply that other suppliers successfully sell less expensive options. Now ,
I know that they are not ,technically , as good as the top price ranges but
they sell very well . This I suspect is because a proportion of users are
not in a position to take full advantage of better
materials , others simply don`t see the need and a minority ( thank
goodness ) loudly and incorrectly assert that there`s no difference.There is
a market there though and , having put all our money ( and more ) into a
paint company we need to make the most of every chance
we get.
We`ve been trialling a " fleet " paint on a stockist`s hire boats for nearly
five years and we are now satisfied that we could offer it on the retail
market as an alternative for
those who won`t / can`t pay over £20.00 per litre.
"Second best " could be more kindly put as merely "different " - and anyway
I don`t see any supplier of
any goods or services on the canal who says " It`s not as good but it`s
cheaper " - and there`s plenty to whom it would apply. So maybe it would be
a good ploy to tell the truth." If a less expensive paint is what you want -
this is pretty damn good ."
Chances are we aren`t going to bother - it will sell well
enough to the hire boat trade.
Phil
"Steve" <st...@abcdef.org> wrote in message
news:10946656...@despina.uk.clara.net...
Phil Speight
and it was , believe it or not an honest request. So - thanks to those of
you who joined in , I learned a surprising amount from the excercise and I
hope no one minds me canvassing opinion within the group.
Incidentally , if anyone wants to try the " gas tar and pitch" route to boat
blacking ( and that isn`t necessarily a recommendation ) such exotic
materials are characterfully
available from The Liver Grease Oil and Chemical Company in Liverpool . A
truly wondrous place. If the
amazing Mr. Wylie is still in business.
Regards
Phil
Will Chapman
> I`m curious to know why it is that the price of paint is always a
> factor when the group discuss the choices available.I`m not being any
> other than genuinley interested to hear people`s ( sensible ) views -
> and for obvious reasons.
Phil
From my point of view my choice of paint for any future
re-paint would be based on a number of issues:
1. Am I happy with the brand used in the current paint job? (yes)
2. Do I know the brand used? (Masons)
3. Is it readily available? (with some effort)
4. Have some colours lasted better than others (yes), do other
brands have a better record? (?).
5. Would there be a significant saving on using a different
brand...say at least 15% (?) [including any additonal preparation]
I must admit that I have mixed feelings about different brnads:
1. On one hand, I suspect that the price of some paints
must be influenced by their heavy advertising budget. But
then, perhaps, the higher sales volume created by the
advertising enables them to keep their prices down.
2. On the other hand I wonder if brands with smaller
promotional budgets keep their prices up to what the
market will bear (I know I would),
In summary, I think what would convince me to change
brands at my next paint job would be a better
understanding of the technical issues. In short, you need
to convince me why paint A is better than paint B. Whilst
I have heard negative comments about some of the better
known brands, as a non-techie as far as paint is concerned
I wonder whether there really is that much difference
between brands. What will be the benefits to me if I
swap....better looking paint-job?.....longer lasting?.....
cheaper/easier to apply/touch-up?
> We have been debating introducing a less expensive paint into
> the Craftmaster range for some time ( the groundwork is all done )
Then my first question would be, why is it cheaper than
your existing range? And what effect will that saving have
on the overall life of the paint job?
I think there is a market for standard and premium paint:
1. Some boat owners are in a position to lay out more
money to ensure that they have the best possible value
for money in terms of a better looking/longer lasting paint
job.
2. Other boat owners would sacrifice optimum value for
money if they can keep the overall cost down in return for
a paint job that will last for x years and perhaps not look
quite so mirror-like(if, indeed that is what one considers to
be desirable).
But, IMO, any company offering two grades would need
to make sure that potential users clearly understood why
there was a difference in price and what the implications
of that difference meant in terms of appearance/lifespan.
HTH
Will Chapman
nb Quidditch
Will Chapman
I think its simply technical ignorance...not helped by the difficulty in
finding good technical advice. Quidditch is bottomed with Comastic;
it took me a while to find a supplier and when I was looking, I was
frequently given mixed messages by suppliers ranging from "use bitumen,
its cheaper, traditional and just as effective" to "if you've got comastic
on now, don't put bitumen over it, it'll strip the under lay off".
I've found a source of Cosmastic now but I'm still confused...how does
it differ to cheaper bitumen coatings? Is it a vinyl finish?
--
Cheers.......
Will Chapman
nb Quidditch
Phil Speight
I`m not going to even begin to compare our product`s performance with
others - I don`t think that`s the way to do business. However - I will say
that we only have one expensive advert. per month and I pay for it by
writing a magazine column! I do say though that all our available funds go
into the product and not the packaging or the promotion and yes - some
paints are emphatically better than others. The only way for a user to judge
is compare
like with like over a number of years , and always take into account the
skill and integrity of application and the
degree of TLC the paint enjoys over the same period.
Our potential cheap range ( which ain`t going to happen )
would not have been as good as our core product but
would have been every bit as good , or better , than others in the same
price bracket.
We`ll keep it for the fleet market if we decide to use it at all .
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Cheers
Phil
"Will Chapman" <qbu...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:41492c50$0$29914$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Will Chapman
> Gosh !
> I`m not going to even begin to compare our product`s performance with
> others - I don`t think that`s the way to do business.
Phil
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that. When I mentioned a comparison
between paint A and paint B I meant that to be between a single
manufacturer's (or distributor's) different brands.
> will say that we only have one expensive advert. per month and I pay
> for it by writing a magazine column! I do say though that all our
> available funds go into the product and not the packaging or the
> promotion and yes
Thats good to know...
>- some paints are emphatically better than others.
...and thats the 64 thousand dollar question....
you know which are the better paints but how does
the consumer find out if the paint industry doesn't
educate us. Is there a website around that offers
a short tutorial in paint selection?
> The only way for a user to judge is compare
> like with like over a number of years
...which is probably, in most cases, why owners
stick with the original brand. Quidditch is just
3.5 years old and so far the paint job is holding
up well (above the gunnel anyway ;>)) but the red
areas do need refreshing. I know red is notorious
for dulling, but how would you rate yours against
the others, say Masons and Blakes?
David Heath
and have a limited number of hours to apply it before it sets. We have an
epoxy based blacking on our present boat and it is excellent in comparison
to bitumen. It has resisted many of the scrapes against concrete that
removed bitumen and requires recoating less frequently.
David Heath
Mirage2
"Will Chapman" <qbu...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:41492c5b$0$29914$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Will Chapman
news:1Sc3d.58$Ek4...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> As far as I know, Comastic is a two part epoxy based coating. You mix it
up
> and have a limited number of hours to apply it before it sets.
David
Not the stuff I use. I bought it at Barton Turns Marina where they use it
on request (at a premium) for blacking boats. My son (Also a David) used
to work there part time and has spent many a day using both bitumastic
and comastic coatings.
I've just found a website which confirms what I'd heard somewhere before,
that Comastic is vinyl based:
http://www.spencercoatings.co.uk/inc/app/devfiles/data/r/e/resources-06PCOMH106.pdf
Comastic is apparently used on all Colecraft builds.
Cheers...
Will Chapman
nb Quidditch
Phil Rushton
up
> and have a limited number of hours to apply it before it sets. We have an
> epoxy based blacking on our present boat and it is excellent in comparison
> to bitumen. It has resisted many of the scrapes against concrete that
> removed bitumen and requires recoating less frequently.
Comastic is a single pack coating. It is good stuff if applied correctly
to a properly prepared hull and should last longer than *ordinary*
blacking.
It is not recommended for application in a covered dock due to the fumes
from the solvents.
Cheers
Phil
nb Coma stic.
Rob
www.metalboatsociety.com and the forums there. One paint that comes
out well is Ameron Coatings - and is an industrial paint scheme. UK
costs for Amerlock 400C/400NS - semi gloss and 450S - gloss is around
£10 a litre. These paints have a low VOC - so it doesn't all
disappear. I see that Comastic is 35% solids and VOC 550g/litre - so
half a litre of paint evaporates instead of providing a useful coating
on the steel!!!!
Compare volume solids and VOC of 400C with Comastic - 87% and
108g/litre.
http://www.ameron-bv.com/index.html?url=/products/product_data/security.php?line=mari
There are good marine industrial quality paints out there for
considerably less than the high priced retail products.
Pete C
<heath...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>As far as I know, Comastic is a two part epoxy based coating. You mix it up
>and have a limited number of hours to apply it before it sets. We have an
>epoxy based blacking on our present boat and it is excellent in comparison
>to bitumen. It has resisted many of the scrapes against concrete that
>removed bitumen and requires recoating less frequently.
Hi,
What brand or type of epoxy coating did you go for?
cheers,
Pete.