River Leven
Marcus
Does any one know if the Leven is navigable from Loch Lomond to the Clyde
(and thence to the Forth and Clyde) I understand that boats have to the
slipped up around the barrier and back in again but what of the rest of the
river???
Marcus and Lynda-Ann
MV Nyassa
Pam Scruton
> Does any one know if the Leven is navigable from Loch Lomond to the
Clyde
> (and thence to the Forth and Clyde) I understand that boats have to
the
> slipped up around the barrier and back in again but what of the rest
of the
> river???
Depends on the size of the boat I suppose and the state of the tide, and
possibly whether there is an r in the month and whether or not you have
sacrificed a live chicken! If there are any members of the Balloch Navy
out there then I'm sure they would know.
My son has paddled down in his kayak, but then it's relatively easy to
port a kayak round obstructions that are there from time to time (the
odd car etc.) There is a very small slip way by the bridge above the
weir in Dumbarton.
I think that one would say, generally, that the Leven is not navigable
from Lomond to Leven - but we live in hope.
In fact I was discussing the chronic lack of imagination of West
Dunbartonshire Council with a friend only yesterday as we passed Bowling
with its many boarded up buildings just crying out for a really good
waterside development - and making a route from F&C to Loch Lomond could
be a real tourist boost for the area.
Big sigh!!
--
Pam
Take out the dog to reply
Niall
blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>In fact I was discussing the chronic lack of imagination of West
>Dunbartonshire Council with a friend only yesterday as we passed Bowling
>with its many boarded up buildings just crying out for a really good
>waterside development - and making a route from F&C to Loch Lomond could
>be a real tourist boost for the area.
>
Scottish Water and SEPA are generally not in favour of this as it
would bring seagoing boats with antifouling and sea toilets from the
Clyde, which would impact on the water quality of what is after all a
reservoir.
--
Niall
Niall
<lyn...@lyndmar.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi,
>Does any one know if the Leven is navigable from Loch Lomond to the Clyde
>(and thence to the Forth and Clyde) I understand that boats have to the
>slipped up around the barrier and back in again but what of the rest of the
>river???
I don't know if it's been done recently, many of the paddle steamers
used on the loch in former times were taken up that way pre- barrage,
although at least one of them was stuck for months!
It certainly looks feasible, someone at the boatyard at Dumbarton
might know.
Main problem is probably getting through Alexandria alive.
The barrier is AFAIK under the control of Scottish Water.
--
Niall
Marcus
"Niall" <nia...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:IoPdPDxWqd7HiH...@4ax.com...
object, I seem to remember that there are regulations on other inland
waterways (Thames??) that sea toilets be disabled whilst cruising inland and
don't the large number of boats kept permanently on the Loch have anti
fouling anyway? Talking to some other boaters in the lounge on the
Inchmurren on Sunday there appears to be some suggestion that the barrier is
doing damage to the Loch. Oh well, I might take a wander down and look at it
later.
Marcus
MV Nyassa
Pam Scruton
"Marcus" wrote in message
> It would seem odd (but not unbelievable) that Scottish Water and SEPA
would
> object, I seem to remember that there are regulations on other inland
> waterways (Thames??) that sea toilets be disabled whilst cruising
inland and
> don't the large number of boats kept permanently on the Loch have anti
> fouling anyway?
and the list of horrible things found in the water just grows and
grows - it was a few limbs in the loch a couple of years ago, a torso in
the Leven last week (now being linked with the torso in the Clyde 2/3
weeks ago).
As you say, there are a heck of a lot of boats more or less permanently
moored on Loch Lomond and when the loch is still you can often see a
thin film of oil here and there, obviously emanating from moorings. If
the taste of my tap water is anything to go by, they are not taking any
chances by being stingy with the chlorine!
Cheers for now
Niall
<lyn...@lyndmar.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>It would seem odd (but not unbelievable) that Scottish Water and SEPA would
>object, I seem to remember that there are regulations on other inland
>waterways (Thames??) that sea toilets be disabled whilst cruising inland and
>don't the large number of boats kept permanently on the Loch have anti
>fouling anyway? Talking to some other boaters in the lounge on the
>Inchmurren on Sunday there appears to be some suggestion that the barrier is
>doing damage to the Loch. Oh well, I might take a wander down and look at it
>later.
This is what I was told a while ago in informal conversation with one
of the SEPA officers responsible for the loch area.
I think they are concerned about enforcement. The Thames isn't a
reservoir as such, and there must be a limited number of seagoing
boats regularly entering the non tidal section. The Thames is also
much more easily controlled; it's fairly easy to check bogs at locks.
I would guess they have a similar level of compliance to Lomond in its
current form; some of the larger boats on the loch have sea toilets
although they are technically illegal (we used to own one which we
took the sea toilet out of and fitted a chemi-kharzi, but the people
we sold it to promptly fitted another sea toilet), but the numbers are
not sufficient to concern SEPA, particularly as most such moor at
Cameron House which is out of the current and anyway closer to the
Leven mouth than Ross Priory. If the Leven was navigable there would
be a large amount of boat interchange with the Clyde, almost all craft
coming from the Clyde would have sea bogs, whereas AFAIK most of the
pleasure craft on the Thames are river boats; although it connects to
the sea only a few of the pleasure boats venture even as far as the
Tideway.
The barrage has long been a bone of contention, people claiming that
the water levels are higher and erosion is the result. IIRC the water
authorities have always claimed that the only effect is to raise the
summer water levels 2 feet which is much less than the previous winter
rise. It's the current fashion (e.g. climate change) to claim that
man's works have terrible effects on the environment, when what is
being observed is the result of natural processes which have always
taken place.
I see in the latest Loch Lomond Association newsletter which I picked
up in Duncans Chandlers today that they had a talk from Donald
MacKinnon about proposals to make the Leven navigable. 3 Locks is the
thinking, although they didn't need locks to take the hulls of the old
paddle steamers up the Leven...
I know some of the loch boats are antifouled, but we never found it
neccesary mooring in the Leven and hauling out for the winter.
--
Niall
Marcus
Interesting, adding the locks to the Leven along presumable with weirs may
make it navigable at low tide as well as high tide I suppose and would have
the added advantage of making it a lot easier to check that boats going onto
the Loch from the Clyde met all the necessary requirements. I hope that it
is carried forward as I can see it giving a boost to the local tourist trade
with the ability to cruise from Edinburgh to Loch Lomond being available.
As for the Thames, we used to moor at Wargrave up stream from Henley and
there were a lot of large cruisers in that area some of which were fitted
with the likes of radar and float away life rafts so I suspect that they did
go onto the tide way regularly, mind you it is possible that they were just
fitted as status symbols around there.
Niall
<lyn...@lyndmar.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Interesting, adding the locks to the Leven along presumable with weirs may
>make it navigable at low tide as well as high tide I suppose and would have
>the added advantage of making it a lot easier to check that boats going onto
>the Loch from the Clyde met all the necessary requirements. I hope that it
>is carried forward as I can see it giving a boost to the local tourist trade
>with the ability to cruise from Edinburgh to Loch Lomond being available.
>
Snag is the same as for F&C through Glasgow; the Leven passes through
some real bandit country. Police are currently investigating the
latest of a number of unsolved murders on the banks.
>As for the Thames, we used to moor at Wargrave up stream from Henley and
>there were a lot of large cruisers in that area some of which were fitted
>with the likes of radar and float away life rafts so I suspect that they did
>go onto the tide way regularly, mind you it is possible that they were just
>fitted as status symbols around there.
Likewise, some of the bigger cruisers on Lomond have radar scanners
fitted. Some of them because the loch is a refuge for boats which are
no longer regarded as suitable for the Clyde due to hull or engine
condition.
--
Niall
>
Pam Scruton
>
> Snag is the same as for F&C through Glasgow; the Leven passes through
> some real bandit country. Police are currently investigating the
> latest of a number of unsolved murders on the banks.
Whoa there! As a resident of Dumbarton (25 years) I have to say that my
son and his kayak club regularly kayak down the length of the Leven and
are quite happy to do so and I have frequently used the path alongside
the river on foot and by bike from Dumbarton to Balloch. There may be
bits that I would cycle a little more quickly or would actually choose
to avoid on foot but I would see no problem at all going by boat!
There may well be unsolved murders in the area but, as far as I know, it
is not being suggested that they took place on the banks of the Leven.
A torso was found in the Leven a couple of weeks ago but the police do
not link it with the other torso which was found, not in the Leven (as
incorrectly reported by several of the media, including the BBC), but
several miles away in the Clyde above the Leven (so it couldn't have
come from the Leven as well unless you are postulating a rather
interesting combination of tidal flow and current!) So what's with this
"latest of a number" rubbish!
It is a matter of fact that murderers often choose to dispose of corpses
in water irrespective of where the murder took place as canals, rivers
and lakes throughout the world can attest. This doesn't stop Loch
Lomond and the Leven being a very popular place with hundreds of boats
with moorings on the Loch and in Dumbarton.
It would be terrific to see boats coming from the Forth and Clyde,along
the Clyde, past the Dumbarton Castle and up the Leven to the Loch. We
have to maintain our rights to use those areas which are so easily
termed 'bandit territory'. The more the merrier and as Jane Austen
might have said, those who think otherwise quite mistake the matter.
--
Pam
Take out the dog to reply.
Marcus
Does anyone fancy a test trip at some time probably slip at Helensburgh,
pootle up the Clyde to Dumbarton and then up the Leven unless anyone knows
of a slip that will take a 19' cruiser nearer Dumbarton. If anyone else has
a boat in the area we could have a small fleet and try to show sepa /
Scottish water that there is a demand for the navigation? Possibly Late June
/ early July if I get the current work schedule on Nyasa finished.
Pam Scruton
"Marcus" <lyn...@lyndmar.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:acfr71$pgv$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
usually bring a bottle of wine for the skipper and make the tea and
coffee and stuff!
Niall
blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>"Niall" wrote
>>
>> Snag is the same as for F&C through Glasgow; the Leven passes through
>> some real bandit country. Police are currently investigating the
>> latest of a number of unsolved murders on the banks.
>
>Whoa there! As a resident of Dumbarton (25 years) I have to say that my
>son and his kayak club regularly kayak down the length of the Leven and
>are quite happy to do so and I have frequently used the path alongside
>the river on foot and by bike from Dumbarton to Balloch. There may be
>bits that I would cycle a little more quickly or would actually choose
>to avoid on foot but I would see no problem at all going by boat!
So you admit there are bits of the path you would avoid. How would
being in a boat protect you from bricks, air gun pellets etc?
>
>There may well be unsolved murders in the area but, as far as I know, it
>is not being suggested that they took place on the banks of the Leven.
>A torso was found in the Leven a couple of weeks ago but the police do
>not link it with the other torso which was found, not in the Leven (as
>incorrectly reported by several of the media, including the BBC), but
>several miles away in the Clyde above the Leven (so it couldn't have
>come from the Leven as well unless you are postulating a rather
>interesting combination of tidal flow and current!) So what's with this
>"latest of a number" rubbish!
Hmm, two dismembered druggies in a few miles of each other, within a
couple of weeks, and there's no connection. In the unlikely event,
that only means there are two butchering maniacs around, not one,
which doesn't make me feel any better about the place.
Over the last few years there have been at least 5 unsolved murders
where the victims have been found in this area.
Unsolved certainly in the McGlashan case because noone is saying
anything to police at all.
As far as water movement is concerned, George Parsonage would be the
man to ask, but I don't see that a combination of a high flow in the
Leven (one of the highest flow rivers in the UK BTW) and a flood tide
in the Clyde would be "interesting" or particularly unusual.
>
>It is a matter of fact that murderers often choose to dispose of corpses
>in water irrespective of where the murder took place as canals, rivers
>and lakes throughout the world can attest. This doesn't stop Loch
>Lomond and the Leven being a very popular place with hundreds of boats
>with moorings on the Loch and in Dumbarton.
Of the thousands of boats on the loch a small proportion are on the
Leven, from observation it is obvious most such are there by economic
neccesity, to the extent that there are regular clean up operations
when all the Leven hulks which have sunk are dragged out and disposed
of. Our experience of the Leven was that it was a good place to leave
a boat if you wanted anything removeable stolen.
>
>It would be terrific to see boats coming from the Forth and Clyde,along
>the Clyde, past the Dumbarton Castle and up the Leven to the Loch. We
>have to maintain our rights to use those areas which are so easily
>termed 'bandit territory'.
That's up to you but we don't find boating through a hail of bricks or
continually paying out against the results of theft and vandalism is
any kind of pleasant experience, and there are plenty of places in
Scotland where this is not part of the boating scene. Lomond sadly
isn't one of them.
On one occasion we returned from a sail on the loch to find the towcar
window put in (in the official Balloch public slip car/ trailer park.)
We went to Alexandria police station to report it, and it was like
Fort Apache. Hordes of scheme kids rampaging outside, whenever a
police car arrived or left they ran alongside banging on the windows!
It was evident that the odd broken car window simply didn't rate
consideration. That's what I mean by bandit country.
Our Loch Lomond boating score: One new inflatable tender nicked from
davits in Leven; one car window as above; one attempted theft of
outboard from Balmaha boatyard, with damage caused. We took the hint
and got out, and have never regretted it.
> The more the merrier and as Jane Austen
>might have said, those who think otherwise quite mistake the matter.
It will take much more than an increase in the number of boats to
address this problem; all that will do is increase the number of
available targets, and the chances of someone getting seriously hurt.
It's not worth it.
--
Niall
Pam Scruton
"Niall" wrote lots of stuff about the 'bandit country' of Loch Lomond
and the River Leven.
We'll never agree on our outlook on life! Of course there are places I
would prefer not to go on foot (but I've been there all the same without
mishap and not just in the West of Scotland). It would be ridiculous if
I were to claim that there were no acts of theft or vandalism in the
Vale of Leven area, quite clearly there are. But it doesn't alter the
fact that most people of my acquaintance owning/operating boats in the
Loch Lomond and River Leven areas have had no problems.
As regards murderers - it still doesn't follow that because bodies have
been found in watercourses then people using watercourses are at a
greater risk of being murdered than anyone else - unless, of course,
they happen to be drug addicts sleeping rough, in which case their
chances of long-term survival are not good no matter where they are.
It seems that you are extraordinarily unlucky in your experiences and I
and my friends and neighbours must be extraordinarily lucky.
Best wishes
--
Pam
Take out the dog to reply (and I frequently do - along the banks of the
Clyde and the Leven)
Niall
blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>It seems that you are extraordinarily unlucky in your experiences and I
>and my friends and neighbours must be extraordinarily lucky.
>
So, unless you are extraordinarily lucky, it would be wise to avoid
this area. From discussions I have had with others in the area, I'd
dispute that we have been unlucky, in fact I reckon we have got off
quite lightly e.g. in comparisom to the other boatowners when the
outboard was tried whose motors weren't so well secured...
One reason the Maid of the Loch restoration is so protracted is that
while she was lying out of use at Balloch pier, everything non ferrous
was stolen, up to and including the brass portholes and window frames.
Unfortunately the "Crimeloch" website which had some interesting
stats. on it seems to have disappeared off the 'net.
A better "new waterway project" would be an Arrochar - Tarbet canal
and an Endrick - Forth Link. The latter is surprisingly short, and
there is even an old railway trackbed in the right place.
--
Niall
Marcus
> A better "new waterway project" would be an Arrochar - Tarbet canal
> and an Endrick - Forth Link. The latter is surprisingly short, and
> there is even an old railway trackbed in the right place.
>
> --
> Niall
Arrochar - Tarbet Canal would be interesting. It would be good to access
Loch Long. I doubt an Endrick - Forth link would happen as Endrick Water
leaves Loch Lomond right through the middle of the National Nature Reserve.
Marcus
MV Nyasa
Brian Dominic
key-bashing and wrote:
>One reason the Maid of the Loch restoration is so protracted is that
>while she was lying out of use at Balloch pier, everything non ferrous
>was stolen, up to and including the brass portholes and window frames.
>
I'm pleased to hear she IS being restored: I remember doing the "Three Lochs" trip by steamer many
years ago, walking between Arrochar and Tarbert and getting a fairly new "Blue Train" from Balloch
Pier back to Dumbarton!
Brian L Dominic
NB Rumpus
Web Sites:
NB Rumpus: http://www.nb-rumpus.com
Golden Valley Light Railway: http://website.lineone.net/~gvlr/index.htm
Friends of the Cromford Canal: www.cromfordcanal.org.uk
Niall
<lyn...@lyndmar.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Arrochar - Tarbet Canal would be interesting. It would be good to access
>Loch Long. I doubt an Endrick - Forth link would happen as Endrick Water
>leaves Loch Lomond right through the middle of the National Nature Reserve.
It's strictly a paper project as long as the current NIMBY fad lasts,
for more reasons than that.
What is the actual status of the Endrick Mouth anyway?
I notice on our post byelaws plan of the loch (the one which shows the
speed limit areas and the bouyage) it is hatched in green and marked
as National Nature Reserve, but this also applies to other parts of
the loch which are as far as I know unrestricted as far as boats are
concerned, other than the speed limits.
I have only once attempted it many years ago in a Microplus, but at a
time when the loch was very low and there simply wasn't enough depth
over the sandbanks.
OTOH, I have been up the Falloch to the mouth of the Inverarnan Canal
many times in a variety of boats.
--
Niall