Red diesel - bad news
Richard Fairhurst
Press Release - Immediate release
Red Diesel - Derogation is not renewed
The Treasury Minister, John Healey, confirmed today that the European
Commission has rejected the UK Government's application to renew the
UK's derogation on red diesel for private recreational boaters.
"This decision is naturally very disappointing. Despite the best
efforts of the campaign leaders, RYA and British Marine Federation
(BMF), and the efforts of the UK Government, it appears that the
Commission was intent on removing the derogation at any cost and has
dismissed the consequences to the UK marine industry and the private
recreational boater" says Neil Northmore, RYA Government Affairs
Advisor.
"Boaters could face a substantial increase in the price of marine
diesel" warned Howard Pridding BMF Executive Director, "which will
have a huge adverse impact on the UK marine industry. It is profoundly
disappointing that the EU has not listened to the UK Government".
The RYA and BMF welcomed the Minister's acknowledgement of the
problems that will flow from this decision, and has confirmed that the
UK Government will consult with boating organisations to develop and
implement a sensible timetable for transitional measures to alleviate
the effects on the boater and the industry.
The RYA and BMF will continue to work closely with Government and their
respective members to ensure that key issues of cost, availability and
safety are addressed by the transitional measures.
Ends
Paul Scott
"Richard Fairhurst" <rich...@systemeD.net> wrote in message
news:1165496082.7...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Just received from BMF.
>
> Press Release - Immediate release
>
> Red Diesel - Derogation is not renewed
>
Good idea to start another thread Richard, as the other 'Red Diesel' one
seems to have gone a bit OT - hopefully this one will refocus on the
problem - it will be interesting to see how many distress sales of boats
will occur, as threatened..
Paul
Scratchy El Snippetos
>
> "Boaters could face a substantial increase in the price of marine
> diesel" warned Howard Pridding BMF Executive Director, "which will
> have a huge adverse impact on the UK marine industry. It is profoundly
> disappointing that the EU has not listened to the UK Government".
>
heat my boat. Anyone know how long before this is likely to take effect?
Paul Scott
"Scratchy El Snippetos" <AlanMc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165499509.4...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Fit a seperate tank if you can - you will still be able to use heating fuel
then..
Paul
Neil Arlidge
Why do you think that TNC pulled out of a new build British built Barge?
:-(
...oh well....I can always join the WWW in her Wilderness boat.....all she
has to do is find one before they are all snapped up.
Of course it does not matter now that it will be powered by petrol, with a
gas fridge and petrol genny.
--
Neil Arlidge - NB Earnest - The Wilderness years...
Follow the truly independent TNC at : http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk
Visit this site and help save our waterways from the DEFRA cuts
http://www.saveourwaterways.org.uk/
Bozo
> "Scratchy El Snippetos" <AlanMc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165499509.4...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>>> "Boaters could face a substantial increase in the price of marine
>>> diesel" warned Howard Pridding BMF Executive Director, "which will
>>> have a huge adverse impact on the UK marine industry. It is profoundly
>>> disappointing that the EU has not listened to the UK Government".
>>>
>> This is a real fucker this one. I'm going to need a second job just to
>> heat my boat. Anyone know how long before this is likely to take effect?
>>
It does NOT need to be a disaster. The UK govt wanted derogation to
continue, and did not want additional tax income from red fuel. So if
they add tax to the fuel they will increase the tax from boaters. This
could then be returned to the boaters by offsetting it against the
licence fees. So it COULD be cost neutral. However it could favour
those that do not use their boats much, as they would get a reduced
licence but not buy much fuel and so not pay much additional tax.
They will probably just do what they are best at, which is say with
tears running down their face, we did not want to tax you while keeping
the money.
Maybe SOS should campaign for the additional tax revenue to be ring
fenced and all used to improve waterway facilities.
Gibbo
Does anyone *really* believe that the UK Government *really* wanted to
keep red diesel considering they get more revenue from derv?
Get a grip.
--
Gibbo
This email address is neither read nor downloaded. Messages to it are
deleted at the server. I don't even get to see them.
Adrian Stott
<rich...@systemeD.net> wrote:
>The Treasury Minister, John Healey, confirmed today that the European
>Commission has rejected the UK Government's application to renew the
>UK's derogation on red diesel for private recreational boaters.
Well, *there's* a surprise!
So let's look at some possible remedial action.
Because of the very high level of taxation on road fuel, UK has the
highest-priced white diesel in EU (AIUI).
So, perhaps the Treasury could continue with a form of marked diesel,
usable (only) for pleasure craft, propulsion, taxed at the lowest rate
allowed under EU regulations. This should substantially reduce the
cost to boaters of propulsion fuel below that of road diesel.
Adrian
Adrian Stott
adr...@spam.co.uk
07956-299966
Uncle Marvo
"Richard Fairhurst" <rich...@systemeD.net> wrote in message
news:1165496082.7...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Press Release - Immediate release
>
> Red Diesel - Derogation is not renewed
>
> The Treasury Minister, John Healey, confirmed today that the European
> Commission has rejected the UK Government's application to renew the
> UK's derogation on red diesel for private recreational boaters.
>
completely by this government who do not give a monkey's about you or anyone
else.
Unless some can prove differently, or is under the illusion that they can
actually trust this bunch?
No, didn't think so.
Adrian Stott
<AlanMc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a real fucker this one. I'm going to need a second job just to
>heat my boat.
Why?
You will still be allowed to use red for heating and electricity
generation.
It is only using it for *propulsion* that is being outlawed.
Or were you planning to leave all your windows open?
Uncle Marvo
"Tim Leech" <dutto...@onetel.no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:p4dgn29c3rm108aor...@4ax.com...
>
Absolutely not. Anyone who wants to run for government should be
disqualified from doing so. Apart from me, that is. I have a genuine
interest in the country and its future. But I am not allowed to, because of
my criminal record.
So I will do as I always do, and leave them well alone even to the point of
not voting. Unless I can vote "None of the Above" which, as we all know,
they have made illegal.
Makes me laugh. Idiots. Simpletons. Etc.
Uncle Marvo
"Adrian Stott" <adr...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:qadgn2t6b0in5vse2...@4ax.com...
> On 7 Dec 2006 05:51:49 -0800, "Scratchy El Snippetos"
> <AlanMc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a real fucker this one. I'm going to need a second job just to
>>heat my boat.
>
> Why?
>
> You will still be allowed to use red for heating and electricity
> generation.
>
> It is only using it for *propulsion* that is being outlawed.
>
the prop.
Stokie
petition to keep Red Diesel for leisure boating , I am gobsmacked at
the ECs decision and confirm Richard Fairhursts posting as accurate.
I have this afternoon been in touch with David Drew Mps office which
confirmed the loss of Red.
David Drew was the MP who handled our petition earlier this year.
Should readers wish to contact his office, here is the number...01453
764355.
Good Luck & Merry Christmas "Bah Humbug" !
"Stokie"
Richard Fairhurst
> Good. Then I'll generate electricity with it and put an electric motor on
> the prop.
I was thinking of replacing my prop entirely with an EcoFan.
Richard
Uncle Marvo
"Richard Fairhurst" <rich...@systemeD.net> wrote in message
Uncle Marvo
"Stokie" <islandero...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1165507423.6...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> As I was the instigator this year of a 5500 signature strong boaters
> petition to keep Red Diesel for leisure boating , I am gobsmacked at
> the ECs decision and confirm Richard Fairhursts posting as accurate.
> I have this afternoon been in touch with David Drew Mps office which
> confirmed the loss of Red.
> David Drew was the MP who handled our petition earlier this year.
> Should readers wish to contact his office, here is the number...01453
> 764355.
>
> Good Luck & Merry Christmas "Bah Humbug" !
> "Stokie"
>
really thinks that the gubbinsment would really take any notice at all of
anything such as a petition of a few thousand people.
That's exactly what they want you to do. And make you think it helps.
What might help is a huge concerted effort involving many millions of voters
and the press (inna SOW stylee) but I think, sadly (in one way) that this
bunch know their days are numbered, so they won't give a toss either way. It
doesn't matter if they lose badly or lose well, if they lose they lose their
lovely job, pension, salary (except the PM and Chancellor, who are
guaranteed pensions for life regardless - fakt).
Fair, eh?
There *is* a way, but AFAIK there are very, very few with the bottle to
something about it.
Paul Scott
"Uncle Marvo" <pau...@deletethisbitfortescue.org.uk> wrote in message
news:4tqsmgF...@mid.individual.net...
Did I hear right, they're taxing ladies of the night now?
Paul
Brian J Goggin
<pau...@deletethisbitfortescue.org.uk> wrote:
>I'm just waiting for the announcement of the oar tax.
The wages of sin is death.
Oh sorry, I misheard you.
bjg
Uncle Marvo
furnessvale
Paul Scott wrote:
> Fit a seperate tank if you can - you will still be able to use heating fuel
> then..
Provided you can buy heating oil in the small quantities a narrowboat
would carry.
George
Canaldrifter
Remove prop.. buy mule.
Tony H
Paul Scott
"furnessvale" <furne...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1165509448....@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
True - this is only practical if someone can, or is prepared, to supply
you - I suspect we'll see plenty more jerry cans and such like in use...
Paul
Ian
Tim Leech wrote:
> Distress sales of builders of new boats will probably come first.
How much does the average new boat cost? How much diesel per annum
might it be expected to use?
Ian
Julian
Which will lead to an increase in incidents of pollution.
Julian
Paul Scott
"Julian" <jul...@negearth.co.uk> wrote in message
news:el9k7d$jnd$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
aren't in any way surprised at the decision, I'm afraid.
Paul
Neil Arlidge
Red diesel for propulsion is gone, to enforce the ruling the government will
end up spending more in enforcement than it makes in revenue....
Let's at least make sure that there are some waterways left to tow our boats
along.
Julian
> One of the straws clutched at in the campaign, of course. I'm with those
> who aren't in any way surprised at the decision, I'm afraid.
Surprised me, no way
I had a second tank fitted to the Barge in 2004
Both tanks will be full this weekend and I then wont use the engine one till
next year so I might get a year on red for the engine......
Julian
Peter Stockdale
"Neil Arlidge" <ne...@tuesdaynightclub.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kIydnbC-ENA...@giganews.com...
>>
>
> Red diesel for propulsion is gone, to enforce the ruling the government
> will end up spending more in enforcement than it makes in revenue....
> Let's at least make sure that there are some waterways left to tow our
> boats along.
>
> --
> Neil Arlidge - NB Earnest - The Wilderness years...
Based on a current retail price of say 50p / litre
Could I just ask how much per litre the price will increase by ?
Many thanks
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com
David Long
<peter....@btopenworld.com> writes
cheapest price you can buy at a supermarket - but canalside suppliers
won't be able to match that, so you can expect, at current prices, to
pay about a quid a litre.
Of course, if you joined me and took your boat to France you'd pay less
for diesel, moorings, and Licences. And get cheap wine, better food, and
warmer weather... and no work in locks.
--
David Long
Sankey Canal Restoration Society http://www.scars.org.uk/
St. Mary's http://www.geocities.com/andrew_fishburn/stmary1.html
http://www.scars.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/webcam/
Neil Arlidge
> In message <hvKdnRTwz69...@bt.com>, Peter Stockdale
> <peter....@btopenworld.com> writes
>>
>> "Neil Arlidge" <ne...@tuesdaynightclub.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:kIydnbC-ENA...@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Red diesel for propulsion is gone, to enforce the ruling the
>>> government will end up spending more in enforcement than it makes
>>> in revenue.... Let's at least make sure that there are some
>>> waterways left to tow our boats along.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Neil Arlidge - NB Earnest - The Wilderness years...
>>
>>
>> Based on a current retail price of say 50p / litre
>> Could I just ask how much per litre the price will increase by ?
>>
> If the only legal fuel is Derv, the price will be whatever is the
> cheapest price you can buy at a supermarket - but canalside suppliers
> won't be able to match that, so you can expect, at current prices, to
> pay about a quid a litre.
>
> Of course, if you joined me and took your boat to France you'd pay
> less for diesel, moorings, and Licences. And get cheap wine, better
> food, and warmer weather... and no work in locks.
The WWW will probably be back and forward like a yo-yo.
Apparently most of the continental Wildernii have uprated trailers...because
their boats come back substantially heavier ;-)
--
Neil Arlidge - NB Earnest - The Wilderness years...
Stokie
Monthlys web site and clicking the various links on the Red Diesel
subject. http://www.ybw.com/mbm/home.htm
Regards
"Stokie"
John Gwalter
> will end up spending more in enforcement than it makes in revenue....
> Let's at least make sure that there are some waterways left to tow our
> boats along.
>
> --
> Neil Arlidge - NB Earnest - The Wilderness years...
> Follow the truly independent TNC at : http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk
> Visit this site and help save our waterways from the DEFRA cuts
> http://www.saveourwaterways.org.uk/
>
>
backwards anyway.
--
JOhn
NB Ernest (that one, not the other one)
My indecision is final.
Sue
> On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:47:00 -0000, "Paul Scott"
> <notvali...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Richard Fairhurst" <rich...@systemeD.net> wrote in message
>>> Just received from BMF.
>>>
>>> Press Release - Immediate release
>>>
>>> Red Diesel - Derogation is not renewed
>>>
>>
>>seems to have gone a bit OT - hopefully this one will refocus on the
>>problem - it will be interesting to see how many distress sales of boats
>>will occur, as threatened..
>>
> That'll be difficult to quantify, the market was already 'soft' and
> there are other factors with possibly more individual impact than the
> price of diesel.
> Distress sales of builders of new boats will probably come first.
>
> Tim
>
> Dutton Dry-Dock
> Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
> Vintage diesel engine service
I know one boatbuilder who is now building kitchens in houses.
--
Sue nb Nackered Navvy
Midland Star
Jeff NB Midland Star
"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:5l9hn25bh9l27uba1...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:37:39 +0000, Malcolm Nixon
> <mal...@mgnixon.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:22:42 GMT, David Long <Da...@n0ne.c0m> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If the only legal fuel is Derv, the price will be whatever is the
>>>cheapest price you can buy at a supermarket - but canalside suppliers
>>>won't be able to match that, so you can expect, at current prices, to
>>>pay about a quid a litre.
>>>
>>>Of course, if you joined me and took your boat to France you'd pay less
>>>for diesel, moorings, and Licences. And get cheap wine, better food, and
>>>warmer weather... and no work in locks.
>>
>>
>>How much is diesel in other EU countries at the moment - we have a few
>>people living there now ?
>
> See
> http://www.ukpia.com/Portals/0/Repository/UKPIA%20EU%20Pump%20price%20comparisons%20Nov%202006.pdf
> --
>
> Martin
>
Phil Kempster
<snip>
>
> Did I hear right, they're taxing ladies of the night now?
>
> Paul
>
>
Yes, it's called syntax!
Phil
Eddie Green
eg.
"Sue" <s...@nonavvy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ZT%dh.2169$493...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
David Long
<mal...@mgnixon.org.uk> writes
>On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:22:42 GMT, David Long <Da...@n0ne.c0m> wrote:
>
>
>>cheapest price you can buy at a supermarket - but canalside suppliers
>>won't be able to match that, so you can expect, at current prices, to
>>pay about a quid a litre.
>>
>>Of course, if you joined me and took your boat to France you'd pay less
>>for diesel, moorings, and Licences. And get cheap wine, better food, and
>>warmer weather... and no work in locks.
>
>
>people living there now ?
>
as in Britain it had fluctuated higher than usual over the summer, so I
expect it's dropped back a bit further by now.
Gibbo
> are prosecuted? I think it was 12 months in the Netherlands
I've been wondering this. My main tank is 1200 litres.
--
Gibbo
This email address is neither read nor downloaded. Messages to it are
deleted at the server. I don't even get to see them.
Neil Arlidge
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:41:45 +0100, Martin <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:37:39 +0000, Malcolm Nixon
>> <mal...@mgnixon.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> few
>>> people living there now ?
>>
>> http://www.ukpia.com/Portals/0/Repository/UKPIA%20EU%20Pump%20price%20comparisons%20Nov%202006.pdf
>
> Thanks Martin - I suspected as much - I know it's more involved than
> that for road vehicles because of other taxation such as vehicle
> license etc.
>
> So when will the EU push for better tax harmonisation on fuels as they
> say they will IIRC.
>
> No wonder there are queues in garages in the Republic of Ireland on
> the border with Northern Ireland !.
Also because there are now NO garages open in Nothern Ireland anywhere near
the border!
Most seem to either be derelict or turned into other temporary uses, like
garden centres.
--
Neil Arlidge - NB Earnest - The Wilderness years...
Adrian Stott
<ed.g...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Has the same ruling been made for Belgium and Ireland?
Ireland didn't apply for an extension of its derogation.
Only Belgium, Malta, and UK did.
All were refused.
Adrian
Adrian Stott
adr...@spam.co.uk
07956-299966
Adrian Stott
<pau...@deletethisbitfortescue.org.uk> wrote:
>
>"Adrian Stott" <adr...@spam.com> wrote in message
>news:qadgn2t6b0in5vse2...@4ax.com...
>> On 7 Dec 2006 05:51:49 -0800, "Scratchy El Snippetos"
>> <AlanMc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a real fucker this one. I'm going to need a second job just to
>>>heat my boat.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> You will still be allowed to use red for heating and electricity
>> generation.
>>
>> It is only using it for *propulsion* that is being outlawed.
>>
>Good. Then I'll generate electricity with it and put an electric motor on
>the prop.
Ah, good. A test case!
Bound to lose, of course, but enjoyable to watch.
Neil Arlidge
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:14:13 -0000, "Eddie Green"
> <ed.g...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Has the same ruling been made for Belgium and Ireland?
>
> Ireland didn't apply for an extension of its derogation.
>
> Only Belgium, Malta, and UK did.
>
> All were refused.
>
> Adrian
..and Finland...I presume they did not apply for extension to their
derogation?
Canaldrifter
Nor me I'm afraid, though the campaign was very worthwhile.
I'm not sure whether this will apply to hire boats, trip boats and
hotel boats. After all, they are business boats of a sort.
Are we to see Customs and Excise launches speeding up and down our
canals demanding to take samples of our fuel? Towpath patrols setting
up watery roadblocks? Having right of access to inspect fuel systems
where two tanks are fitted? Will they impound boats that have a trace
of red die in the wrong place as they do trucks? If so, where? Just how
will they police this one? Bet they haven't thought it out.
Tony H
Gibbo
> Bet they haven't thought it out.
>
Er.... No forget it........
Brian Holt
"Canaldrifter" <canald...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1165573080.0...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
:
: Paul Scott wrote:
: > "Julian" <jul...@negearth.co.uk> wrote in message
: > news:el9k7d$jnd$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
:
: Are we to see Customs and Excise launches speeding up and down our
: canals demanding to take samples of our fuel? Towpath patrols setting
: up watery roadblocks?
That's easy, sit at Napton any day of the week between April and September
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants
:
Neil Arlidge
When they have it will cost much more to police, than they get in extra
income.
I expect BW will have to police it, so they will get more grant-in-aid!
Peter Stockdale
>>>
> Ah, good. A test case!
>
> Bound to lose, of course, but enjoyable to watch.
>
> Adrian
>
> Adrian Stott
> adr...@spam.co.uk
If you really want to stuff Gordon - the only way out at the moment seems to
be LPG.
I know petrol engine conversions are commonplace.
The challenge for the day is for someone to come up with the theory for a
diesel engine conversion kit. (: - )
Brian J Goggin
<canald...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm not sure whether this will apply to hire boats, trip boats and
>hotel boats. After all, they are business boats of a sort.
===definition begins=====
For the purposes of this Directive 'private pleasure craft` shall mean
any craft used by its owner or the natural or legal person who enjoys
its use either through hire or through any other means, for other than
commercial purposes and in particular other than for the carriage of
passengers or goods or for the supply of services for consideration or
for the purposes of public authorities.
===ends=====
Trip boats and hotel boats are clearly not private pleasure craft, so
they can continue to use red diesel.
The situation of hirers is (to me) less clear. If the customers of the
hire-boat firm buy diesel, it is clear that they cannot use red
diesel. But what if the hire firm sells its holidays "diesel
included"? It seems to me that, if the hire firm pays for the diesel,
it can use red diesel, and I suggested that point in a submission I
made to the Irish Department of Finance. I have not had a lawyer's
opinion on the matter, but it seems to me that, if hire firms change
their business model to selling holidays *diesel included*, they can
continue to use red diesel. They would need a mechanism for enabling
hirers to top up from other outlets: a company charge card, that could
be used at other hire firms, might make the paperwork easier.
>Are we to see Customs and Excise launches speeding up and down our
>canals demanding to take samples of our fuel? Towpath patrols setting
>up watery roadblocks? Having right of access to inspect fuel systems
>where two tanks are fitted? Will they impound boats that have a trace
>of red die in the wrong place as they do trucks? If so, where? Just how
>will they police this one? Bet they haven't thought it out.
One of the points the European Commission made in rejecting the UK's
application for an extension was that the period of derogation was
supposed to cover transition. One would have expected, for instance,
that any boat built since about 1993, with a diesel heating system,
would have had two fuel tanks installed from the beginning.
I don't think the challenge for the customs authorities is very great.
If I were they, I would exercise most control through the firms that
supply the fuel. I would understand that there will always be a small
amount of illicit use of red diesel. I would make some high-profile
raids on marinas and linear moorings from time to time, and perhaps
raid a rally or something.
bjg
Julian
"Peter Stockdale" <peter....@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:L9udnYhRv5A...@bt.com...
>
> If you really want to stuff Gordon - the only way out at the moment seems
> to be LPG.
Or Bio diesel
This is allowed under the derogation which only applies to mineral diesel.
There is no regulation to say that there is any tax regime for tax rebated
bio, no colour marker or chemical trace.
And what is best no regulation to say that we have to pay tax on bio for use
in a boat.
If what I have said is wrong the please point me at the relevant law so I
can be corrected............
J
Chris N Deuchar
pau...@deletethisbitfortescue.org.uk says...> news:qadgn2t6b0in5vse2...@4ax.com...
> > You will still be allowed to use red for heating and electricity
> > generation.
> >
> > It is only using it for *propulsion* that is being outlawed.
> >
> Good. Then I'll generate electricity with it and put an electric motor on
> the prop.
Electromagnetic shaft coupling?
...possibly a sensible development anyway!
Chris D
--
ch...@deuchars.co.uk http://www.Deuchars.co.uk
Author & Publisher: "A Boaters Guide to BOATING" 4-50GBP
Mixing old and new waterway techniques. ISBN 0953151204
Details: http://www.deuchars.co.uk/publication/
Tel: 0115 951 6264 Fax: 0870 131 2079
Peter Stockdale
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 00:28:33 -0000, "Midland Star" <auv...@dsl.pipex.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>news:5l9hn25bh9l27uba1...@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:37:39 +0000, Malcolm Nixon
>>> <mal...@mgnixon.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:22:42 GMT, David Long <Da...@n0ne.c0m> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If the only legal fuel is Derv, the price will be whatever is the
>>>>>cheapest price you can buy at a supermarket - but canalside suppliers
>>>>>won't be able to match that, so you can expect, at current prices, to
>>>>>pay about a quid a litre.
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course, if you joined me and took your boat to France you'd pay less
>>>>>for diesel, moorings, and Licences. And get cheap wine, better food,
>>>>>and
>>>>>warmer weather... and no work in locks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How much is diesel in other EU countries at the moment - we have a few
>>>>people living there now ?
>>>
>>> See
>>> http://www.ukpia.com/Portals/0/Repository/UKPIA%20EU%20Pump%20price%20comparisons%20Nov%202006.pdf
>
>
> --
>
> Martin
Seemed pretty clear to me and I am the original thiccy !!
Pete
David Long
Canaldrifter <canald...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>
>I'm not sure whether this will apply to hire boats, trip boats and
>hotel boats. After all, they are business boats of a sort.
But all used for pleasure - so the cost will simply be passed on to the
customers.
>
>Are we to see Customs and Excise launches speeding up and down our
>canals demanding to take samples of our fuel? Towpath patrols setting
>up watery roadblocks? Having right of access to inspect fuel systems
>where two tanks are fitted? Will they impound boats that have a trace
>of red die in the wrong place as they do trucks? If so, where? Just how
>will they police this one? Bet they haven't thought it out.
>
As we are all, like the hunting fraternity, law-abiding citizens I don't
expect they anticipate wide-spread law-breaking. The only time French
Customs came aboard my boat in France they were looking for drugs, and
didn't dip the tanks. But there have been cases of Customs acting, and
the threat is usually enough for most people.
Canaldrifter
Gibbo wrote:
> Canaldrifter wrote:
> > Bet they haven't thought it out.
> >
>
> Er.... No forget it........
What?
Tony H
Gibbo
They never think *anything* out.
They're idiots.
Brian Holt
"Peter Stockdale" <peter....@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:L9udnYhRv5A...@bt.com...
:
: "Adrian Stott" <adr...@spam.com> wrote in message
Why, I think its Rose Narrowboat who already run a gas fuelled spark
ignition engined boat(best I could describe, not diesel, not petrol) I
think with the cost of diesel a lot of boats will have petrol engines
fitted from new as they are both lighter and quieter.
And reference the kit, I Think they have or it may just be gas to
supplement the diesel.
--
Brian Ancient Order of Sewer Ants
Visit this site and help save our waterways
http://www.savethewaterways.org.uk/
Brian Holt
:
: "Peter Stockdale" <peter....@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
My nephew produces this on a commercial basis and I shell be in touch with
him. He has already suggested I get an IBC on a trailer and hip up to
Lincolnshire to pick up a ton for the RR
Don't forget to watch TV Monday night
furnessvale
Brian J Goggin wrote:
> The situation of hirers is (to me) less clear. If the customers of the
> hire-boat firm buy diesel, it is clear that they cannot use red
> diesel. But what if the hire firm sells its holidays "diesel
> included"? It seems to me that, if the hire firm pays for the diesel,
> it can use red diesel, and I suggested that point in a submission I
> made to the Irish Department of Finance. I have not had a lawyer's
> opinion on the matter, but it seems to me that, if hire firms change
> their business model to selling holidays *diesel included*, they can
> continue to use red diesel. They would need a mechanism for enabling
> hirers to top up from other outlets: a company charge card, that could
> be used at other hire firms, might make the paperwork easier.
I believe there is another definition somewhere within HMRC which
covers hire boats.
If you hire the boat complete with crew it is commercial and continue
to use red diesel.
If you hire to self steer then it is white I am afraid.
George
Brian J Goggin
<mal...@mgnixon.org.uk> wrote:
>And also perhaps because the interest rate in the Euro zone is
>significantly less than UK - isn't it Brian ?
I don't know, I'm afraid. Mortgage paid off, no car loans, no idea
even what Irish interest rates are, never mind those next door.
bjg
Adrian Stott
It is already possible to add LPG to diesel for fueling diesel
engines.
I stopped at a BP station on A14 last year to fill up my (LPG-fueled)
Golf, to find the pump being used to fill a huge Skania semi. The
driver said the whole fleet of his employer had been converted to use
diesel+LPG, as it saved a lot of money. My technical ex-partner (when
we were trying to get a business going selling a high-tech LPG
conversion system) told me that adding LPG also makes the engine burn
slightly hotter, thus burning up all the carcinogenic soot particles.
But that is also what makes it difficult to produce a successful
system - it is rather easy for it to run hot enough to burn out the
valves.
Adrian Stott
<canald...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>Are we to see Customs and Excise launches speeding up and down our
>canals demanding to take samples of our fuel? Towpath patrols setting
>up watery roadblocks? Having right of access to inspect fuel systems
>where two tanks are fitted? Will they impound boats that have a trace
>of red die in the wrong place as they do trucks? If so, where? Just how
>will they police this one? Bet they haven't thought it out.
>
>Tony H
Anyone who thinks this will be difficult or over-expensive to police
has only to look at how it is done in France.
Every now and then, the gendarmes would appear at some basin, and
check all the pleasure craft moored there. Not the tanks, but the
filter bowls just before the injectors. If they found red, they asked
to see your log and your fuel purchase receipts. If you were too far
from Belgium to be credible, they wheeled out the guillotine. Of
course, now, so sorry -- no more Belgium, so they don't have to bother
with the last step.
This often occurred surprisingly soon after a fuel barge might have
passed through and sold a lot of red to the unsuspecting. Also, I
know of one cruising bargee who bought a tank of red from a boatyard
and a km or so down the cut was waved over by a flic on the towpath.
The boatyard had called the cops. Friendly, eh?
The enforcement will be easy, and will surely be done.
You want to know what the penalties are like? Just ask any UK farmer
who has been caught driving his 4X4 on red. The revenooers make good
business by lurking at agricultural shows.
Canaldrifter
furnessvale wrote:
> Brian J Goggin wrote:
> > The situation of hirers is (to me) less clear. If the customers of the
> > hire-boat firm buy diesel, it is clear that they cannot use red
> > diesel. But what if the hire firm sells its holidays "diesel
> > included"? It seems to me that, if the hire firm pays for the diesel,
> > it can use red diesel, and I suggested that point in a submission I
> > made to the Irish Department of Finance. I have not had a lawyer's
> > opinion on the matter, but it seems to me that, if hire firms change
> > their business model to selling holidays *diesel included*, they can
> > continue to use red diesel. They would need a mechanism for enabling
> > hirers to top up from other outlets: a company charge card, that could
> > be used at other hire firms, might make the paperwork easier.
> > bjg
>
> I believe there is another definition somewhere within HMRC which
> covers hire boats.
>
>
> George
That fits what has been said elswhere, that once a hire boat leaves its
base it is regarded as a private leisure cruiser.
> If you hire the boat complete with crew it is commercial and continue
> to use red diesel.
>
How to make opportunity from aversity.....
I can tell boaty stories around bars and well into the night. Even sing
a song or two, if oiled enough. I could teach steering techniques. And
the hire boat companies would welcome me because I would make sure the
hirers don't damage the goods.
Aaah... I have a future! I will hire myself out as a steerer of hire
boats and waterway racanteur, thus saving crews the cost of white
diesel! Pocket money plus free accomodation. Free food? Free booze?
Free women?
Free-dom..... from the Basy.....
Maybe not.
Tony H
Robert Oliver
done a conversion on car diesel engines.
regards
robert
Brian J Goggin
wrote:
>I believe there is another definition somewhere within HMRC which
>covers hire boats.
>
>If you hire the boat complete with crew it is commercial and continue
>to use red diesel.
>
>If you hire to self steer then it is white I am afraid.
Happily, HMRC's definitions no longer apply hereabouts. But clearly
HMRC is entitled to make whatever rulings it likes for Her Majesty's
Realms. However, as I understand it, the European Commission
definition of private pleasure craft does not (although I am not a
lawyer) exclude the arrangement I suggest. Accordingly, if British
hire firms want to continue to use red diesel, they have only to make
representations to HMG, rather than to the faceless bureaucrats (tm)
of Brussels.
bjg
Andrew Instone-Cowie
> Just received from BMF.
>
> Press Release - Immediate release
>
> Red Diesel - Derogation is not renewed
>
> The Treasury Minister, John Healey, confirmed today that the European
> Commission has rejected the UK Government's application to renew the
> UK's derogation on red diesel for private recreational boaters.
Although the BMF's website dates the press release as 8th December, the
news broke on the 7th. But the EU decision appears to have been taken on
30th November. See
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/com/2006/com2006_0743en01.pdf
So who was sitting on the information for more than a week?
Andrew
--
nb Regal Suki
http://www.saveourwaterways.org.uk/
(Email goes to my first name at this domain)
Neil Arlidge
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> Just received from BMF.
>>
>> Press Release - Immediate release
>>
>> Red Diesel - Derogation is not renewed
>>
>> The Treasury Minister, John Healey, confirmed today that the European
>> Commission has rejected the UK Government's application to renew the
>> UK's derogation on red diesel for private recreational boaters.
>
> Although the BMF's website dates the press release as 8th December,
> the news broke on the 7th. But the EU decision appears to have been
> taken on 30th November. See
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/com/2006/com2006_0743en01.pdf
>
> So who was sitting on the information for more than a week?
>
> Andrew
The "Government" wants to spread out the bad news to boaters? :-((((
--
Neil Arlidge - NB Earnest (leaving soon) + The WWWW?
Michael Clarke
news:4u5fktF...@mid.individual.net...
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> Just received from BMF.
>>
>> Press Release - Immediate release
>>
>> Red Diesel - Derogation is not renewed
>>
>> The Treasury Minister, John Healey, confirmed today that the European
>> Commission has rejected the UK Government's application to renew the
>> UK's derogation on red diesel for private recreational boaters.
>
> Although the BMF's website dates the press release as 8th December, the
> news broke on the 7th. But the EU decision appears to have been taken on
> 30th November. See
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/com/2006/com2006_0743en01.pdf
>
> So who was sitting on the information for more than a week?
As I was tasked by the BMF and RYA to make sure that Belgium and Malta also
made applications to the Commission for the continuation of the Derogation
along with the UK then I can reveal a bit of the background scene to this.
The Commission sent their decision to the European Parliament and Council on
the 30th Nov. Unfortunately, most of the Member States at Council did not
pick up on it immediately excepts the Fins. They informed the Finnish
equivalent of the BMF and they alerted the BMF on the 5th Dec. The BMF and
RYA contacted the UK government on the 6th (they were already aware by this
time) and a discussion ensured through to the 7th. A press release was made
on the 8th.
The Belgian government when contacted in the middle of last week were still
not aware of the situation but they are now ;-)
HTH.
--
Regards
Michael Clarke
Email: michael...@skynet.be
Web: http://www.petroleumblownaparte.eu/
Andrew Instone-Cowie
Given the choice between conspiracy and incompetence, the latter is
usually a safe bet ;-)
Uncle Marvo
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:18:40 +0000, Andrew Instone-Cowie
> <address-...@datagram.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> "Andrew Instone-Cowie" <address-...@datagram.co.uk> wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> news:4u5fktF...@mid.individual.net...
>>Given the choice between conspiracy and incompetence, the latter is
>>usually a safe bet ;-)
>
> True. My first test is "Are they competent enough to have created a good
> conspiracy?" So far the answer has always been "no".
> --
At the risk of being flambeed ...
They have no chance of competence. I, and many like me who are becoming
quite lucky at getting right what we do, owing largely to having done it for
a long time, can not be competed with by people who learn (little) about
what they need to know about over relatively short periods.
I liked that double preposition in the middle.
I am sure that there are very clever people, not like myself, who know why a
minister for (say) sport can become a minister for (say) transport, and
expect them to know anything at all about the subject.
IMHO (I say again, IMHO), if it *is* valid (or indeed advisable, or dare I
say necessary) for this sort of scenario to happen, then surely the
minister(s) should stick to ministering (whatever that is), hence someone
like mini-me should not go off on one, talking about 2000 watts, carbon
cards etc, when there are people wot I know that know loads about this sort
of thing, but said mini-me doesn't listen, because he has two degrees in
politics and so must know better.
Am I talking cobblers?
And when the "next" lot get in, most of whom have absolutely no experience
of running a cuntry, why on earth should they be any good at it?
Richard Tanner
> The Commission sent their decision to the European Parliament and Council
on
> the 30th Nov.
I know I'm being naive but what is the European Parliament for?
Richard Tanner
NB Cartref
Don Aitken
<richar...@orang.net> wrote:
>
>
>> The Commission sent their decision to the European Parliament and Council
>on
>> the 30th Nov.
>
>I know I'm being naive but what is the European Parliament for?
>
It can bring enforcement proceedings in the European Court if the
Commission fails to do something it is supposed to do. It did so
successfully in 1985 when the Commission failed to adopt a common
transport policy - which is sort of where we came in. It can also
reject the Commission's proposed budget, which it has done twice. And
it can sack the Commission, which it has not done yet.
One thing it *can't* do is legislate, so the name "Parliament" is
highly misleading. The original treaties called it an Assembly, not a
Parliament; it adopted that name in 1962 out of pure puffed-up
vainglory. Although it had no authority to do any such thing, the
change has been retrospectively validated on both the European and UK
levels (by the Single European Act and the European Communities
(Amendement) Act 1986, respectively).
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"