Irresponsibility on Liathach
Richard Smith
on Liathach that I had all-but-forgotten. I'd be interested to know
what other people would have done in the same situation.
I was part of a group of four spending a few days in Torridon one Agust.
We all knew each other well socially but had done relatively little
walking together. On the first day we'd done Beinn Alligin over the
Horns, and the second day was a traverse of the Beinn Eighe ridge, so by
the third day when Liathach was suggested that seemed a reasonable
suggestion.
The third day was a nice sunny August day with a light refreshing breeze
-- ideal weather. We went up the steep path to Stob a' Choire Liath Mòr
and followed the Liathach ridge westwards to Mullach an Rathain,
negotiating the pinnacles along Am Fasarinen slowly but without
incident. By now it was early afternoon and we stopped to admire the
view from the summit.
We were talking about the various mountains we could see, and as some
point somebody pointed to the northern ridge out to Meall Dearg. I said
the ridge was called the Northern Pinnacles and that it was arguably the
hardest arête on the mainland. One of the group who I shall call James
[not his real name] suggested we go out along it. I'd done it before so
knew what it was like, and I was concerned that he was up to it so
quizzed him on what other similar things he'd done. His answers (Crib
Goch, Tryfan north ridge, Striding Edge) made me think it would be
overly ambitious, especially as we didn't have a rope.
James was quite persistent about wanting to do it; the other two,
probably less experienced, were egging him on and were quite content to
wait on the top in the sun while James and I went out and back. After a
while I said I understood there to be a path a little way below the
arête that avoided the worst step on the arête and that might offer a
more suitable route out to Meall Dearg and back again. He said he it
was the arête and Meall Dearg that he wanted to do. I told him I wasn't
willing take him down the arête. "Fine," he said, "I'll do it by
myself." I watched him start down the arête for long enough to be
convinced he wasn't just calling my bluff.
I then chased after him, rather concerned for his safety. I'd done the
route a year (maybe two) earlier and could more-or-less remember the
line I'd taken, and from what he'd told me, I was fairly sure I had
considerably more scrambling experience than he had. To start with I
let James stay in front, hoping he might get to a bit he wasn't willing
to lead down and turn back. We didn't.
The toughest bit of the route, in my opinion, is a bit where you have a
choice between negotiating a sheer 8' drop onto a exposed ledge, perhaps
3' deep, and a steep 30' chimney packed with loose rock. (There may
have been other possibilities that I hadn't found.) James had started
down the chimney and seemed to be getting into difficulties --
unsurprisingly, as in my view the chimney was only suitable for ascent.
I helped him back up, and then demonstrated how to get down the 8'
drop, going first myself. (Basically, lower yourself over the edge until
hanging from your fingers, and then drop the last 6" as there were no
footholds to speak of.) At that point, I was committed to descending at
least as far as the bottom of that pinnacle when I could get round to
reascend the chimney.
James was very reluctant to continue (or go back, or anything else). I
took a few minutes looking to see whether from below I could see an
alternative route for him, but couldn't. The ledge he had to drop onto
wasn't wide enough for me to stand behind him to prevent him from
slipping backwards (not that that was actually very likely, but would
probably have made it feel safer). I did in the end talk him down.
After that, although the route was much easier, James was a nervous
wreck and in quite a few places needed me underneath guiding his feet.
We did eventually get over to Meall Dearg without further incident;
James (unsurprisingly) wasn't willing to go back up the ridge to rejoin
the main group, so we decided to separate from them and drop down to the
north. Fortunately we all had mobile phones and we were able to
communicate this to the other half of the group who agreed to move the
car to the Torridon House carpark where we would end up reaching the road.
By the time we met up with the rest of the group, James was treating it
all as a bit of a joke and I think the others thought the only problem
was me being a bit of a killjoy. I have avoided going out walking with
him since, and to this day he hasn't either thanked me or acknowledged
that he would have been in serious difficulties had I not been there.
But I've really no idea whether what I did was the right thing. Would
he really have continued down the arête had I not joined him? Should we
have turned round after the difficulties in the chimney? When he became
cragfast on that drop, should I have continued down without him until I
could reach the chimney to go back up? (I'd free soloed the route
before, in both directions.) And does anyone have any advice on how to
avoid something like this happening in the future? Or am I overreacting
over the whole incident?
Richard
Chris Gilbert
away from it a little bit wiser. Specifically James. I wouldn't lose
any more sleep over the matter.
chris
Mike Clark
"Chris Gilbert" <ch...@ravenseye.plus.com> wrote:
Agreed. Part of learning about risk involves getting into and out of
sticky situations, hopefully without too many serious consequences and
also without needing to call in the rescue services.
Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | caving, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user" http://www.antibody.me.uk/
Paul - xxx
> I've just been reminded of something that happened to me a few years
> ago on Liathach that I had all-but-forgotten.
snipped interesting bits .. ;)
> Or am I overreacting over the whole incident?
I'd be inclined to not worry about it, you obviously haven't for a
while. I also see little point giving much 'advice', IMHO, it all
turned out OK so you 'did the right things' at the time they needed
doing. It probably isn't worth analysing it now, "would he have gone
on if you hadn't followed", can't possibly be answered without him and
his viewpoint.
Whether you could live with the consequences if he'd carried on and
you'd not followed might be worth thinking about.
Frankly I think I'd have pushed it a little in conversation to make him
see it as much more than a joke and to make a little more of it when
you all met up and explain fully why you split up .. which we all know
is not normally 'the best' thing to do .. your circumstances and
choices made it 'right' .. someone else might have done similar but it
could be the wrong choice .. and I'd at least try to let him know for
good or bad that he ought to at least acknowledge that!
Trouble is there are so many variables that 'an answer' might or might
not be correct in a different, similar, particular situation, you do
what you do at the time based on what is known at the time. So long as
you can justify what you did with a reasoned account of it, as you have
IMV, and with logical reasoning behind your choices I can't see how
anyone could reasonably call you for it.
We all want to do things properly, but shit happens, deal with it
either way right or wrong, live with the consequences, learn from it
and move on.
Only thing I'd suggest is not to worry too much and do what your
experience tells you .. how you can avoid it happening in future would
probably be more down to assertion and 'leadership techniques' at the
time or time of departure ... ;)
--
Paul - xxx
Peter Clinch
> But I've really no idea whether what I did was the right thing.
I think it's the case that there's not a single unique value for "the
right thing", and if you want to be "right" across the board there may
not be any values at all.
Many moons ago now Dundee Uni Rucksack (of which I'd been president the
previous year) were at the Ling Hut in Torridon for a winter weekend.
On the Friday night much discussion went on as to what folk would be
doing, and a new chap (though experienced, IIRC with a Summer MLC)
decided Alligin by himself would be quite the thing. The president felt
it overly ambitious and tried to dissuade him, though the new chap
wasn't convinced. The pres. then asked my opinion (as a 3rd year
postgrad the most experienced there, though hardly an Oracle), I felt it
a bit OTT as well and also tried to dissuade him. But he felt sure and
despite our reservations we also felt that ultimately he was responsible
for his own safety and his experience was such that overruling that
seemed wrong (who were we, not /that/ much older or experienced
ourselves, to decide on his behalf against his wishes?). So next
morning off he went, and he was never seen alive again (fell off the
Horns judging by where MRT found the body a few days later). Did I and
the pres. do "the right thing"? Well, obviously not 'cause he died, but
OTOH would "grounding" him have been right? Is it a mountaineering
club's duty to prevent its experienced, consenting, adult members from
mountaineering? I don't think so (though I'm well aware others disagree
with me). And I don't think it's right to expect it of informal groups
either.
> And does anyone have any advice on how to
> avoid something like this happening in the future? Or am I overreacting
> over the whole incident?
Choose your partners carefully?
The UIAA Participation Statement may be apposite here:
"Climbing, hill walking and mountaineering are all activities with a
danger of personal injury or death. Participants in these activities
should be aware of and accept these risks and be responsible for their
own actions and involvement."
Overreacting? I think it's good that you're concerned and are thinking
it over. I don't personally think you should lose any sleep over it but
just as I said there's probably no unique "right thing" to have done
there's also probably no unique "right thing" for someone to feel about it.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Mike Clark
Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> Is it a mountaineering club's duty to prevent its experienced,
> consenting, adult members from mountaineering? I don't think so
> (though I'm well aware others disagree with me). And I don't think
> it's right to expect it of informal groups either.
>
I agree, ultimately for consenting adults the risk decisions are
personal decisions.
> > And does anyone have any advice on how to avoid something like this
> > happening in the future? Or am I overreacting over the whole
> > incident?
>
> Choose your partners carefully?
>
> The UIAA Participation Statement may be apposite here:
>
> "Climbing, hill walking and mountaineering are all activities with a
> danger of personal injury or death. Participants in these activities
> should be aware of and accept these risks and be responsible for their
> own actions and involvement."
>
> Overreacting? I think it's good that you're concerned and are
> thinking it over. I don't personally think you should lose any sleep
> over it but just as I said there's probably no unique "right thing"
> to have done there's also probably no unique "right thing" for
> someone to feel about it.
>
> Pete.
It's worth considering that if you look into the biographies of the
acknowledged publicly renowned climbers and explorers, for example
Cris Bonnington, Doug Scott, Joe Simpson, Reinhold Messner etc etc,
you'll see that they have survived many scrapes and near misses and that
many of their friends and colleagues didn't.