Cheviot Hills/Motor Cycles
Terry Elliott
Just venting my spleen.
Yesterday (Sunday) 3 of us parked in the Forestry car-park at Alwinton.
(Those who do not know this area should know that it is unspoiled and
little known superb walking in North Northumberland's border hills.
Anyway, the car park was pretty full and one of the vehicles was a large
white van bearing the logos of M & S Motorcycles, Westgate Road,
Newcastle-upon-Tyne. This was disgorging three large and shiny trials
motorcycles. At the time, we did not give this too much thought.
We set off on our walk around Clenell Street. (not so much a "Street" as
an ancient track across wild hills). The day was slightly misty but we
still had glorious vistas after walking up to about 360 metres. The
route is marked "Public Bridleway". One early gate has a "No
Motorcycles" sign and there are also horseshoe marked "Border Ride"
signs.
About half way round the 10 miles or so, we first heard, then saw, three
motorcycles.
These were tearing round and round the muddy area near a gate, while one
of them dismounted to open it. We noticed that the riders were adults.
This area is very wet and soft and we could see that they were doing
great damage. As we passed further along the route where they had been,
we could see great black swathes and stripes going out 10 and 15 feet
either side of the path. The wheels had completely stripped the grass
from the soil.
This are is noted for its ancient forts and settlements and earlier we
had been musing how ghostly Roman Legionaries might still be
accompanying us.
When we arrived back at the car park, we had a chat with a Forest Ranger
who was parked up. He told us that he had great sympathy but that
motorcycles had permission to use these bridleways. He did hope to
gather enough evidence to present to the County Council to try and get
this permission rescinded but did not hold out much hope.
So, while these people have the law on their side, the whole thing is so
morally repugnant as to defy belief.
--
Terry Elliott
Sunderland
North-East England
Terry Elliott
<Te...@thelinds.demon.co.uk> writes
>Hi All.
>Just venting my spleen.
>Yesterday (Sunday) 3 of us parked in the Forestry car-park at Alwinton.
>(Those who do not know this area should know that it is unspoiled and
>little known superb walking in North Northumberland's border hills.
>
Stephen Psallidas
motorbikes in the Cheviots. I am amazed that you tell me that they actually
have _permission_ to tear up the bridleways. By what 'logic' did this
happen??
I had thought that these bikers were simply illegal and noticed that none of
them have licence plates so I had not made any effort to complain. However,
I will now be writing to the County Council to protest. But as I am not
actually a voter in Northumberland, I agree, this might not make much
difference. On the other hand, I do know someone who is a rights-of-way
officer in Northumberland so I will bring it up with him too.
--
Stephen Psallidas
Newcastle upon Tyne
st...@cyberbub.freeserve.co.yoo-kay - (Home address)
stephen....@granada-learning.commmm - (Work address)
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/4647
---You know what to do with the above addresses!---
Bourne Westfield School
Yes I too am somewhat disgusted that these people are allowed access, but I
have a similar problem with mindless youths darting over the field behiind
my house churning up the footpath.
Most of these mindless idiots prove the fact by not wearing crash helmets in
an attempt to show their virility?
Nigel Bourne/Aylesby
Terry Elliott
Stephen Psallidas <stephen....@granada-learning.co.uk> writes
>As a (responsible) mountain biker, I also have been upset by these
>motorbikes in the Cheviots. I am amazed that you tell me that they actually
>have _permission_ to tear up the bridleways. By what 'logic' did this
>happen??
>
directly tomorrow early am..
--
Cheers and beers,
Terry Elliott
<west...@saqnet.co.uk> writes
Not got the shoes yet, no hurry though.
NB they were in a state after that walk-on-the-wild-side from your house
to the pub.!!
NB You know what they say about guy's with big
feet.......................!
--
Simon Elliott
<Te...@thelinds.demon.co.uk> writes
>Hi All.
>Just venting my spleen.
>Yesterday (Sunday) 3 of us parked in the Forestry car-park at Alwinton.
>(Those who do not know this area should know that it is unspoiled and
>little known superb walking in North Northumberland's border hills.
>
little "difficult" with them....
--
Simon Elliott
Ken Redman
works wonders: "Sorry, mate, I slipped: must have been all that mud some
thoughtless b*gg*r has churned up..."
Terry Elliott wrote
>Yesterday (Sunday) 3 of us parked in the Forestry car-park at Alwinton.
>(Those who do not know this area should know that it is unspoiled and
>little known superb walking in North Northumberland's border hills...
Simon Elliott wrote:
> (Almost) Glad that I missed that walk, I'd have been tempted to be a
> little "difficult" with them....
--
Ken Redman
'Semper in faecibus sumus: sole profundum variat'
To reply remove dot. from email address
Ian Munro
Ken Redman wrote:
>
> As with bolshie mountain bikers, a walking stick through the front wheel
> works wonders: "Sorry, mate, I slipped: must have been all that mud some
> thoughtless b*gg*r has churned up..."
I find shouting "My brakes don't work" is quite effective at clearing
miserable groups of ramblers walking 6 abreast on country lanes when
they refuse to acknowledge my presence on a mountain bike.
--
Tel. +44 (0)1707 286049, Fax +44 (0)1707 284199,
i.munro@(no spam)herts.ac.uk, http://dragon.herts.ac.uk/~eleqim
Dept Electronic, Communication & Electrical Eng.
University of Hertfordshire, Hatfield, Herts. AL10 9AB England
Ken Redman
Ian Munro wrote:
> I find shouting "My brakes don't work" is quite effective at clearing
> miserable groups of ramblers walking 6 abreast on country lanes when
> they refuse to acknowledge my presence on a mountain bike.
--
Callum Sword
Ken Redman wrote:
> Or scythes on the front axles, Boudicca-wise?
>
> Ian Munro wrote:
> > I find shouting "My brakes don't work" is quite effective at clearing
> > miserable groups of ramblers walking 6 abreast on country lanes when
> > they refuse to acknowledge my presence on a mountain bike.
>
ROTFL (x 2)
Bourne Westfield School
Terry Elliott <Te...@thelinds.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Mhyp6GAL...@thelinds.demon.co.uk...
Nigel
Mike Peters
<west...@saqnet.co.uk> hammered out this message and gave forth this
offering:
<snip>
>Most of these mindless idiots prove the fact by not wearing crash helmets in
>an attempt to show their virility?
>
>Nigel Bourne/Aylesby
Do you mean their genitials protrude from their heads ?
Mike Peters
Remove "cleats" before useing Email
Ian Munro
Joking aside,
I'm amazed how inconsiderate some of my fellow mountain bikers are.
From personal experience, the inconsiderate types tend to fall into
two camps:- those who just don't give a toss, and those who don't
realise that they are being inconsiderate.
The first lot are just beyond help and deserve to die horribly.
But the second lot suprise me. I've come across quite a few bikers who
are nice, kind, considerate people, but just don't believe in slowing
down to walking pace when passing a walker. When I've asked them about
their behaviour, the normal answer is that the walker was in no danger
and I passed under complete control. They don't realise that some poor
guy minding his own business has just nearly had a heart attack as a
purple streak of lycra has passed them at 20 mph.
It's a shame because it tars us all with the same brush. People
don't come across the considerate bikers that often because generally
speaking the're being considerate and avoiding walkers.
Still it's a cruel and unfair world.
Ian
Terry Elliott
<i.m...@herts.ac.uk> writes
>
>
>Ken Redman wrote:
>>
>> As with bolshie mountain bikers, a walking stick through the front wheel
>> works wonders: "Sorry, mate, I slipped: must have been all that mud some
>> thoughtless b*gg*r has churned up..."
>
>miserable groups of ramblers walking 6 abreast on country lanes when
>they refuse to acknowledge my presence on a mountain bike.
>
On the roads and paths, I ALWAYS step CHEERFULLY out of the way when I
see them coming towards me. Means that they have not got to move the
handlebars very much. Problem is, when they are coming at me from
behind, it is ALWAYS when I find that I've left my "seebackscope" at
home, and the mountain biker forgot to fit a bell to the handlebars!
--
Terry Elliott
Sunderland
North-East England
Ken Redman
> ... People don't come across the considerate bikers that often because
> generally speaking the're being considerate and avoiding walkers.
More to the point, they do come across us (I am also a perfect
driver...) but simply don't notice us. It's the inconsiderate louts that
get noticed... ;-)
John Samson
ken.r...@mround.bt.dot.co.uk wrote:
> Ian Munro wrote:
> > ... People don't come across the considerate bikers that often because
> > generally speaking the're being considerate and avoiding walkers.
>
> More to the point, they do come across us (I am also a perfect
> driver...) but simply don't notice us. It's the inconsiderate louts that
> get noticed... ;-)
May I rewind this thread a bit, and mention my final day of the Pennine
Way in 1997. (I'd set out from Edale in 1989, but took my time.) I was
enjoying the perfect silence, solitude and fresh air (and even sunshine)
of the Cheviots. After a few hours to myself I met a mountain biker - one
of the friendly and considerate ones - who warned me that scramblers were
ahead. Funny - no obvious crags around. Then it dawned on me what he had
meant - four motorbikes roared past just at the junction of the detour to
the Cheviot to the main Pennine Way. Please don't tell me the bylaws
allow them up _there_!
--
John Samson
Lost Consonants 1: I fear geeks bearing .gifs
Loughborough Ramblers: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/8701/
Terry Elliott
Samson <j.h.s...@lboro.ac.uk> writes
>May I rewind this thread a bit, and mention my final day of the Pennine
>Way in 1997. (I'd set out from Edale in 1989, but took my time.) I was
>enjoying the perfect silence, solitude and fresh air (and even sunshine)
>of the Cheviots. After a few hours to myself I met a mountain biker - one
>of the friendly and considerate ones - who warned me that scramblers were
>ahead. Funny - no obvious crags around. Then it dawned on me what he had
>meant - four motorbikes roared past just at the junction of the detour to
>the Cheviot to the main Pennine Way. Please don't tell me the bylaws
>allow them up _there_!
>
which dropped of the three scramble bikes at Alwinton last week. The
three which destroyed huge swathes of turf, and churned up deep ruts of
mud around the gates on Clennell Street. Not sure what I can do about it
though.
Stephen Psallidas
Northumberland Council. He says that there is a big problem and debate on
this issue at present. Apparently the motor-bikers claim that they are
using the main forest roads and tracks through the Cheviots because these
are ancient trading roads - bizzarely, the concept of 'inherited
rights-of-way rights' exists in English law, and these supersede the latest
status as bridleways. Seems incredible, but apparently true - or at least,
N.C.C. is unwilling to challenge this in court because if the judgement goes
against them, they will have opened a can of worms for the whole country.
Of course, the motor-bikers start off on the main tracks but then go off
onto footpaths and other 'non-ancient' bridleways, but once they're out
there, who can stop them? Apparently N.C.C. have brought the police in, who
are concerned to help (hmmm...). Anyway, the coppers have taken the
interesting tack of going into the hills themselves on motorbikes and
stopping the invaders on the pretext that if they claim that these
bridleways are in fact highways, they should have tax and MOTs for their
bikes. Nice one! :-) But they obviously can't do that every day.
My friend said that N.C.C. would be very interested if people took photos of
the motor-bikers and sent them in, as these may help in evidence if it ever
came to legal challenges. So get snapping!
Steve
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Stephen Psallidas
st...@cyberbub.freeserve.co.yoo-kay - (Home address)
stephen....@granada-learning.comm - (Work address)
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/4647
---You know what to do with the above addresses!
---The opinions expressed in this message do not necessarily reflect those
of Granada Learning Ltd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Shaun C. Murray
<stephen....@granada-learning.com> wrote:
>Terry, I have spoken to my pal who is a rights-of-way officer for
>Northumberland Council. He says that there is a big problem and debate on
>this issue at present. Apparently the motor-bikers claim that they are
>using the main forest roads and tracks through the Cheviots because these
>are ancient trading roads - bizzarely, the concept of 'inherited
>rights-of-way rights' exists in English law, and these supersede the latest
>status as bridleways.
If that is the case they would have originally been Byways and have
been classified by bridleways wrongly but, to get a bridleway
reclassified is a lengthy process involving looking back through old
parish maps and things like the Domesday Book to establish if it was
ever a road or not. Last time I heard of a reclassification, the
claimant had originated the proceedings 10 years previously.
However, until it's proven, you still have no right to ride a
motorbike on a bridleway.
> Seems incredible, but apparently true - or at least,
>N.C.C. is unwilling to challenge this in court because if the judgement goes
>against them, they will have opened a can of worms for the whole country.
It's not new. This happens all over the place. I guess they don't want
the expense of a court case.
>
>Of course, the motor-bikers start off on the main tracks but then go off
>onto footpaths and other 'non-ancient' bridleways, but once they're out
>there, who can stop them?
Suggest photographic evidence is best should a case be brought.
> Apparently N.C.C. have brought the police in, who
>are concerned to help (hmmm...). Anyway, the coppers have taken the
>interesting tack of going into the hills themselves on motorbikes and
>stopping the invaders on the pretext that if they claim that these
>bridleways are in fact highways, they should have tax and MOTs for their
>bikes. Nice one! :-) But they obviously can't do that every day.
Very true. Seen the same thing on the Ridgeway which is a road
officially. Police 4x4 stopped up there waiting for unregistered
4x4's.
>
>My friend said that N.C.C. would be very interested if people took photos of
>the motor-bikers and sent them in, as these may help in evidence if it ever
>came to legal challenges. So get snapping!
How about phoning up NCC or Northumbria police. You never know, they
may have a police bike in the area or at least an officer who can
catch them coming back to the van using their bikes on the road or
alledged highway unregistered.
--
Shaun
s...@enterprise.net PGP Key available
GoFar MTB mag (Issue 2 now available) http://www.gofar.demon.co.uk/
The Digger
>Of course, the motor-bikers start off on the main tracks but then go off
>onto footpaths and other 'non-ancient' bridleways, but once they're out
>there, who can stop them?
The same that stop walkers going off track. Their own sense of right and
wrong.
>However, until it's proven, you still have no right to ride a
>motorbike on a bridleway.
Not strictly true. If use is "as of right" then no crime is commited in law.
In practise this is understood to mean that if I as a vehicular user have
evidence which I believe proves vehicular rights then that would be sound
defence.
> Seems incredible, but apparently true - or at least,
>N.C.C. is unwilling to challenge this in court because if the judgement
goes
>against them, they will have opened a can of worms for the whole country.
More likely the CC have more pressing matters to deal with, that voters are
concerned about. Remember, we (bikes and walkers) are a minority interest
here that the CC's would be happy to do without.
Anyway, more to the point...
Unlicensed bikes are a problem for us law abiding trail riders. It must be
pointed out that every one I talk to (Police, NP rangers, RoW officials et
al) are in agreement that the biggest problem with unregistered bikes stem
from local (typically younger) users. It is very unusual for a grown man to
van a non-legal bike out to use anywhere, he'd be more likely to take part
in a bona-fide competition somewhere.
On the subject of RoW law and the use as of right by virtue of higher
status, it is neither bizarre or indeed unusal that such a state of affairs
exist in English law. RoW legislation is a complex animal and one shouldn't
be too quick to make rash statements.
I've tried before in this NG to emphasise the responsible use of unsealed
roads as a legitimate recreational use. There is even (shock horror) an
argument for motor-biker (as you will) use being a positive method of
maintaining a useful resource for future people to enjoy. You may struggle
to comprehend the logic, but try and imagine the words "walkers" and
"footpaths" replacing "riders" and "green roads" in the following:
"If no one uses the green roads they will eventually be lost under
plow/undergrowth/mysts of time so it's a good thing there are riders out
there willing to use and so ensure the survival of these ancient public
rights"
Also previously I have tried to point out the ratio of vehicular mileage Vs
footpath mileage, currently estimated at 2000 miles for trail riders
compared with 120,000 miles of footpath/bridalway (CC figures 1992). The
land belongs to us all; please try and be a little more tolerant of others'
legitimate use. Don't let a (very) tiny minority put you off!!
Finally I would hope we don't have to revisit the surface damage question
again, it's going nowhere. My Kawasaki weighs 110Kg ready to go, causes
little damage and what is caused is never evident on my next visit. Compare
this to Doctor's Gate or Jacob's Ladder up the road from me, where
helicopters are used to drop tonnes of hardcore to combat boot erosion.
Obviously it's a numbers thing, but my point is everyone out there is
harming some how. None worse than the farmers either, if truth be known.
I hope my flying the motor flag is not too abhorrent to you, any more than
my grand-dads wish to walk over the top of Kinder was abhorrent to the Duke
of Devonshire. Live and let live eh? IYKWIM
The Digger
"The poorest man hath as true a title and just
right to the land as the richest man....
True freedom lies where a man recieves his
nourishment and preservation, and that is in
the use of the earth."
gwyn
<tony....@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>Finally I would hope we don't have to revisit the surface damage question
>again, it's going nowhere.
Tis true, but last time I was up the track above Kinder res it is
increasingly apparent that you are seeing nowhere where the motor
biker erosion is so bad you have deep gashes in the tracks that have
obviously been riden on too much.
Your biker statement would make perfect sence if every one rode
Kawasaki 110kg light bikes but, as this question always goes your
general bike is *much* heavier than that.
My answer is to get the MCC's around the country to fund some sort of
repair work to the track's that they damage.
--
Gwyn, 58 Wainwrights and 1 Munro
I have done the knowledge of the lakes.
gw...@gwyn-gwynrem.freeserve.co.uk (remove rem = spamtrap)
(put this in place of reply address)
The Digger
>Tis true, but last time I was up the track above Kinder res it is
>increasingly apparent that you are seeing nowhere where the motor
>biker erosion is so bad you have deep gashes in the tracks that have
>obviously been riden on too much.
There are no vehicular rights on Kinder anywhere to my knowledge. I
understand the Park Authority are up there a fair bit in 4X4, maybe sheep
farmers also. I have not personally seen evidence of bike use up there.
>Your biker statement would make perfect sence if every one rode
>Kawasaki 110kg light bikes but, as this question always goes your
>general bike is *much* heavier than that.
Max useful offroad weight is Honda XR600, approx. 145Kg wet (ie with fuel
load). These are a bit of a handful, esp. if dropped. Most bikes come in
around the 120-130Kg mark.
>My answer is to get the MCC's around the country to fund some sort of
>repair work to the track's that they damage.
See joint GLASS/TRF/LARA/ACU work in and around Derbyshire (for instance)
look at Roych Clough. Trees planted, fences erected, notices posted,
volunteer labour provided to work under PPA Ranger direction. All paid for
by the motor users in full, to put right iressponsible user damage. It's a
three pronged campaign; get the loose cannons into the fold, repair damage,
and make sure everyone (ie this NG!!) is aware of responsible and legitimate
use.
Thanks for not flaming the previous post ;-)