Walking Sticks
Ben Dipper
Hi
I've just found this newsgroup, so please forgive me if this has been
discussed in the past, but I didn't read it if it was!
I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking sticks
to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees, which are
a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
sticks themselves. If so:
a) Are they really a benefit?
b) Do you need two, or can you get adequate benefit from having just
one?
c) What sort of handle should one go for? - straight 'ski pole' style,
or 90 degree angled handles? (What I was after here, really, was
whether any particular handle design is easier to control or grip when
descending steep slopes.)
d) What is the best make to go for?
e) Are there any other design features I should look for when buying?
f) Prices?
Thanks in advance for your help!
Ben
--
-----oooOOOooo-----
Ben Dipper
Research Assistant
EIA Centre
University of Manchester
Oxford Road
MANCHESTER
M13 9PL
Tel.: 0161-275-6881/6873
Fax.: 0161-275-6893
e-mail: ben.d...@man.ac.uk
EIA Centre WebSite:
http://info.mcc.ac.uk/Arts/planning_and_landscape/eiac/EIA.html
Personal Website:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/1366/index.html
-----oooOOOooo-----
Nigel Cliffe
> I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking sticks
> to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees, which are
> a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
> sticks themselves. If so:
>
> a) Are they really a benefit?
Yes, but not for everyone.
> b) Do you need two, or can you get adequate benefit from having just
> one?
Yes, and the coordination is easier. However, two gives more power.
> c) What sort of handle should one go for? - straight 'ski pole' style,
> or 90 degree angled handles? (What I was after here, really, was
> whether any particular handle design is easier to control or grip when
> descending steep slopes.)
Hard one. FInd a shop with lots to choose from (the shop at the otherend
of the main street in Fort William from NevisSport has a lot).
I have a t-handled Leki, which does me fine, though I'm thinking of buying
a pair with angled heads and using the wrist straps to take the load.
T-head is easy to plant, then transfer part of weight on very steep
downhills, probably less good on more normal terrain. A good T-handle will
allow it to be gripped below the cross-piece.
> d) What is the best make to go for?
Don't know.
> e) Are there any other design features I should look for when buying?
DONT buy the Leki with the sprung loaded end. It justs absorbs your energy
and costs extra money !
> f) Prices?
About 30 quid each.
There is a short booklet written by one of the Patterdale Mountain Rescue
team on the efficiency of sticks. Worth a quick read. It talks about using
the strap on the stick to transfer the weight load to the forearm rather
than the hand.
The downside of a stick is that your shoulders and arms will get tired. I
use mine when my legs are starting to feel a little sore/tired, then stop
when I feel refreshed, or over fairly short but very steep sections.
Helps quite a bit on really steep decents, particularly loose surfaces.
Also invaluable if stuck trying to cross boggy ground - test with stick,
follow up with foot.
And, from someone I saw on a sumit last summer. When the little dish to
stop it sinking in soft ground gets lost/broken, replace it with a plastic
"holey" practice golf-ball.
- Nigel.
--
Nigel Cliffe, mailto:ncl...@hfnet.bt.co.uk BT Labs, Ipswich, UK
Opinions my own, they may or may not be shared by my employers
tifo...@aol.com
In article <32ADA5...@man.ac.uk>, Ben Dipper <ben.d...@man.ac.uk>
writes:
>I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking sticks
>to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees, which are
>a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
>sticks themselves. If so:
>
>a) Are they really a benefit?
>b) Do you need two, or can you get adequate benefit from having just
>one?
My wife has a "dodgy" knee, so we thought we would try a telescopic stick
out last year to help her when descending. It has been a great benefit and
she uses all the time,it does take a lot of weight off the knee joint.As
at the time it was only a trial we only paid around 17 pounds for it (the
cheapest we could find) but now can see no other advantage with the dearer
models other than weight.
I think that two poles would be an advantage when climbing.
Paul Lowe
Dan Evans
Ben Dipper (ben.d...@man.ac.uk) wrote:
: I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking sticks
: to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees, which are
: a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
: sticks themselves. If so:
All I can say is this: I have known several people who were confident
mountain walkers before they got their trekking poles. After they got
them, they seem to be very jittery when going up and (especially) when
coming down.
I would personally never use one of these stick things, as I think they
take away all your confidence. But you will make your own decision.....
--Dan Evans.
email: dan....@sjc.ox.ac.uk
phone: 0956 472738
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh0014/
Dr. David Martin
In article <58jqt3$4...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
sjoh...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Dan Evans) wrote:
+>Ben Dipper (ben.d...@man.ac.uk) wrote:
+>: I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking
sticks
+>: to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees,
which are
+>: a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using
such
+>: sticks themselves. If so:
+>
+>All I can say is this: I have known several people who were
confident
+>mountain walkers before they got their trekking poles. After they
got
+>them, they seem to be very jittery when going up and (especially)
when
+>coming down.
+>
+>I would personally never use one of these stick things, as I think
they
+>take away all your confidence. But you will make your own
decision.....
+>
To each his own. For walking with a biggish sack they are dead good
going uphill. I wouldn't use one for confidence though, sometimes it
is easier to go without it. Coming down I chuck it on the pack.
They have their uses. Long non technical ascents are made far easier.
lugging them around if you haven't got a good way to carry them can be
a liability though.
I got my poles in france for about 20 quid the pair (2 piece poles),
though they can be got cheaper if you shop around. In the UK expect to
pay a ridiculous amount.
.d
* David Martin - Atherosclerosis and Thrombosis research group *
* http://www.uio.no/~damartin/ david....@biotek.uio.no *
* Arbeid. 22 95 84 54 Telefax. 22 69 41 30 Mobil. 90 74 27 65 *
Peter Clinch
Ben Dipper wrote:
> I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking sticks
> to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees, which are
> a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
> sticks themselves. If so:
>
> a) Are they really a benefit?
YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes
I'm a fan, if you can't tell. I have rather dodgy knees, and the poles
make a *huge* difference to my ability to keep going, especially where
steep slopes and/or heavy loads are concerned.
> b) Do you need two, or can you get adequate benefit from having just
> one?
One's good, but two are better. Easier to synch things and keep a
natural rythm going. Only real disadvantage of two is it's a bit of a
faff holding a map and compass and using either at the same time, but
you can always stow one in these situations.
> c) What sort of handle should one go for? - straight 'ski pole' style,
> or 90 degree angled handles? (What I was after here, really, was
> whether any particular handle design is easier to control or grip when
> descending steep slopes.)
I prefer ski grip, but that's maybe just familiarity as ski touring is
my fave way to see the hills. The main point with a ski style is a
wrist loop, which should be snug and come through from below so the
weight goes onto your wrist directly, rather than by gripping tightly
with the fingers. Ski grip can, of course, be used for skiing, which
isn't really the case with a T. Also, there's a bigger range of poles
available with ski grips.
> d) What is the best make to go for?
Several good ones. Leki, Scott, and Black Diamond are all fairly well
rated and widely used.
> e) Are there any other design features I should look for when buying?
First one to look for is shock absorbing springs in the handle. Once
you've found these, eliminate them from your shortlist, because they're
pointless gimmicks of no actual value that add to cost and weight, make
the pole weaker, and reduce its effectiveness. Hopefully they'll soon
follow "conservation heels" into the dustbin of Crap Ideas inflicted on
the outdoor community from time to time.
Three part, rather than two. Two can have advantages for serious ski
touring as an otherwise equivalent 2 will be stronger than a 3, but a
good 3 part is still pretty damn tough, and for walking will be fine and
much more convenient when stowed.
Powder baskets, rather than a rubber bung or weeny size basket. Why?
Because they don't sink in bogs or snow nearly so readily, and don't
really get in the way otherwise. This means that actual ski poles tend
to be a Cunning Plan, as they'll have these on anyway.
Black Diamond Flicklocks have a cam closure rather than a twist closure,
so you always get the locking tension right and won't either damage the
locking bushes or collapse unceremoniously as the pole folds up under
you, which is possible with a twist. I've just gone from Leki twist
locks to BD Flicklocks, and like the way I can actually operate them
properly with wet gloves.
> f) Prices?
For a pair, 40-60 pounds is about right. Less, and they'll likely be
crap that won't last or work well, more and you're getting into rather
specialised ski gear that forms avalanche probes etc.
I'd be inclined to get a pair of actual ski poles, as they can be used
perfectly well for walking, but it doesn't usually work the other way
around. Braemar Nordic have a good range, are good at discusiing needs
and giving advice over the 'phone and will do mail order post free.
'Phone 013397 41242, or email in...@braemar.nordic.co.uk (satisfied
customer, rather than vested interest, BTW).
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/MedPhys/
Peter Clinch
Dan Evans wrote:
> All I can say is this: I have known several people who were confident
> mountain walkers before they got their trekking poles. After they got
> them, they seem to be very jittery when going up and (especially) when
> coming down.
I'm slow coming down *really* steep stuff, but...
My knees are dying, so I'd be slow without them anyway;
It's harder placing and checking 4 points of contact than 2, but speed
on steep sections isn't the point: safety and reduction of pressure on
the knees is.
If your friends were slower going up, God knows what they were doing. I
power up *much* quicker and more confidently with poles than without on
anything that doesn't require handholds. On gentler descents I'm just
as quick with poles as without, but travel in greater comfort.
> I would personally never use one of these stick things, as I think they
> take away all your confidence. But you will make your own decision.....
If you're using them as a crutch to self confidence, at which they are
bad, they're not much use. If you use them to supply power and traction
through your arms in addition to your feet, there's no reason to reduce
confidence. Quite the opposite, in fact, once you have a bit of
experience with them
ft...@netcomuk.co.uk
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:59:28 -0800, Ben Dipper <ben.d...@man.ac.uk>
wrote:
>Hi
>
>I've just found this newsgroup, so please forgive me if this has been
>discussed in the past, but I didn't read it if it was!
>
>I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking sticks
>to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees, which are
>a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
>sticks themselves. If so:
Now that we're back on walking poles again, a question I would like to
ask is - do they take the strain off your back?
I've been unable to go backpacking for about two years now due to a
back injury and though I think that I'm well on the mend, I'm still a
bit wary about heavy packs and long distances.
Would a pole or two help ?
BTW nobody mention dogs, I nearly mentioned dogs but I think I got
away with it <g>
Frank
--------------------------------------------------------------
In the valley of the blind, The one-eyed man is king
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Ashton
>
> All I can say is this: I have known several people who were confident
> mountain walkers before they got their trekking poles. After they got
> them, they seem to be very jittery when going up and (especially) when
> coming down.
>
> take away all your confidence. But you will make your own decision.....
>
Can't agree. Had my stick a year now, wouldn't go without it. Gives
extra power uphill, takes the load off my knees downhill, and it
doesn't half ease the load when back-packing. And one great bonus,
it's ideal to strap my camera too and take a piccy of myself with the
timer. Better than a tripod.
James Romines
Ben Dipper wrote:
>
> to take some of the strain during steep descents off my knees, which are
> a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
> sticks themselves.
Well, I find a stick most useful for establishing a good hiking
rythym, especially when trudging uphill. Also, when I maneuver
down incredibly steep descents, it's great for balance when trying
to maintain a slower pace.
I've never bought a walking stick. I've wandered into the woods
and found a freshly fallen green limb, and carved the bark off
and it made a great walking stick. So far, I've tried oak and
aspen (does aspen grow in the UK??) Sticks are also great for
holding up backpacks when one is taking a breather. I've also
used them to swat at mice in the middle of the night when
I could hear the little critters scratching on my nylon and
ripstop stuff! In an Appalachian Trail Shelter (Siler Bald),
they were climbing up and over my sleeping bag all night....
SWAT SWAT SWAT SWAT!!!!
>
> a) Are they really a benefit?
Oh, hell yes. You can get into a groove with one and hike all
day at a nice pace......go find a nice straight green limb and
carve yourself a good one with personality (imagine that you're
Gandalf or something).
Jim Romines
Rick
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 19:16:14 GMT, ft...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
>Now that we're back on walking poles again, a question I would like to
>ask is - do they take the strain off your back?
>I've been unable to go backpacking for about two years now due to a
>back injury and though I think that I'm well on the mend, I'm still a
>bit wary about heavy packs and long distances.
>Would a pole or two help ?
>BTW nobody mention dogs, I nearly mentioned dogs but I think I got
>away with it <g>
One thing springs to mind about carrying rucksacks and that is
that the weight should be carried on your waist not on your back. If
correctly adjusted the waist strap should be tight around the hips and
the shoulder straps should be just tight enough to stop the pack from
swinging around.
I have a little back trouble but have no trouble carrying a
rucksak of about 90lbs. The only time it is a problem is putting the
damn thing on without doing myself an injury. Once on however, the
waight is all on my hips and my back/shoulders just stop it falling
over!
Why not mention dogs? Is it a standing joke on this NG?
Regards
Rick
--
E-mail: ri...@airtime.co.uk
Burnley, Lancashire, UK
Home Page: http://www/airtime.co.uk/users/rick
--
"We do not inherit the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our =
children"
Stuart Baldwin
In article <32b125d5...@news.airtime.co.uk>, Rick
<ri...@airtime.co.uk> writes
> Why not mention dogs? Is it a standing joke on this NG?
>
It's where it all started to go wrong last time we were discussing
walking sticks. The only time I've felt the need to use my killfile on
anyone in this group.
--
Stuart Baldwin
Ben Dipper
Hi all
Well, thanks to everybody who took the time to reply to my original
query about walking sticks: it's always good to find out what other
people have to say, and it has certainly helped me to make up my mind,
and given me info about what to go for and what to avoid.
It's also obvious that you've discussed this before in this newsgroup,
so sorry to have dragged it out of its grave again, and thanks for
having the patience to explain it to me all over again...!
Good Crimble and Happy New Year!
Ben
ft...@netcomuk.co.uk
On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 19:23:37 -0600, James Romines
<jrom...@HiWAAY.net> wrote:
> I've never bought a walking stick. I've wandered into the woods
> and found a freshly fallen green limb, and carved the bark off
> and it made a great walking stick. So far, I've tried oak and
> aspen (does aspen grow in the UK??)
<snipped>
> .go find a nice straight green limb and
> carve yourself a good one with personality (imagine that you're
> Gandalf or something).
Fine - but don't let Fangorn catch you ;-)
Gavin Parry
>
>I've just found this newsgroup, so please forgive me if this has been
>discussed in the past, but I didn't read it if it was!
>
>I am thinking of buying one or two lightweight telescopic walking sticks
>a bit dodgy. I wondered if anybody had any experience of using such
>
>a) Are they really a benefit?
I have just this summer completed my Gold Duke of Edinburgh Expedition
in Snowdonia. I was carring around 18kg (too young to know what that is
in old money) and it made life so much easier. I was powering up the
hills and over the moors it was great. It helps take the wieght off your
knees and transfers it to other parts of your body. This is the reason
that i bought the stick in the first place as i have noticed that, most
of my d of e group who regually walk are developing all types of knee
related problems.
>b) Do you need two, or can you get adequate benefit from having just
>one?
co-ordinate them both.
>c) What sort of handle should one go for? - straight 'ski pole' style,
>or 90 degree angled handles? (What I was after here, really, was
>whether any particular handle design is easier to control or grip when
>descending steep slopes.)
hand (not really designed for load anyway just dexterity) to the wrist
which is designed more for taking loads. A comfortably grip can help you
walk so much faster.
>d) What is the best make to go for?
be standing up to the hell that we put them through.
>e) Are there any other design features I should look for when buying?
really useful when walking on rocky terrain, when suddenly hitting a
rock realy shocks a your wrist.
>f) Prices?
Mine was 25ukp ish but shop around and haggle for any discount you can
get, groups or anything else going
>
>Thanks in advance for your help!
>Ben
One thing that i have noticed that the foot opposite to the stick
carrying hand tends to suffer more from blisters. It could just be me
but i would be interested, if any body else has had this problem.
And just one last thing. If any one is interested in Gold D of E
expeditions then have a look at my home page (URL in sig). Please excuse
all the daft pictures before hand, just skip them.
Well theres my 5p for the conversation for now.
Gavin
--
Gavin Parry
http://www.Geocities.com/Yosemite/5806/
New E-mail gavin...@bigfoot.com
ft...@netcomuk.co.uk
On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 03:21:54 GMT, ri...@airtime.co.uk (Rick) wrote:
> One thing springs to mind about carrying rucksacks and that is
>that the weight should be carried on your waist not on your back. If
>correctly adjusted the waist strap should be tight around the hips and
>the shoulder straps should be just tight enough to stop the pack from
>swinging around.
Yes, I know this, I usually have/had mine adjusted so that the
shoulder straps were hardly touching for normal walking and then
tightened up if control was needed, keeps your back cooler.
When I first injured my back, I had pain just walking normally,
without a pack, things have improved since then but I don't want to
risk going back<sorry> to how it was.
> I have a little back trouble but have no trouble carrying a
>rucksak of about 90lbs.
You must be a big boy <g>
>The only time it is a problem is putting the
>damn thing on without doing myself an injury. Once on however, the
>waight is all on my hips and my back/shoulders just stop it falling
>over!
> Why not mention dogs? Is it a standing joke on this NG?
The last time there was a Walking Pole thread on this ng it developed
into a flame war about whether or not dogs should be allowed on the
hills. It dragged on for ages and got very boring.
Martin Williams
Paul Lydon (pa...@palydon.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> Put it this way - its not unusual to see British Mountain Guides using them...
> In winter conditions, as everyone knows, having an ice axe and knowing how to
> use it is important, so that a slip isn't disasterous. But there is a school of
> thought that having the ski poles helps prevent the slip, leading to the ice axe
> arrest, in the first place. . . and on steeper ground you can always use one
> pole in addition to the axe in the other hand.
I would suggest if you are using both on terrain where there is
somewhere to fall to (i.e. risk of an unstoppable slide), not to use
the wrist loop on the ski pole so that you can discard it easily if you
need to ice axe brake.
That said, I find ski poles very good with heavy packs although I do
find I walk more slowly with one, especially going downhill. Oh and I
wouldn't recommend the "Lindur" make as mine jammed and resisted all
attempts to free it (attempts which resulted in it's destruction :-().
I now have a cheap Leki Makalu Classic pole which is much better.
--
Martin Williams <m...@plovers.demon.co.uk>
Peter Clinch
Gavin Parry wrote:
> I manage with 1, 2 would relive the force more but i find it too hard to
> co-ordinate them both.
It's actually easier to co-ordinate 2, as they follow a natural walking
rhythm far more easily than one: you just let your poles swing naturally
with your gait, so no co-ordination is required.
> Mine has a shock absorbing spring incorperated into it, i find this is
> really useful when walking on rocky terrain, when suddenly hitting a
> rock realy shocks a your wrist.
Nooooooooooooooo! The shock absorbers are no use at all if you're using
the poles optimally. The poles should be placed by letting them swing
into place with practically no grip on them at all: just let them swing
between thumb and index finger, so if they do bump into something they
just bounce off with practically no shock at all.
Once they're planted, you load them gradually, so there is no shock load
to absorb. OTOH, shock absorbers add to the weight of the pole, the
cost, reduce the reliability (more things to go wrong) and reduce the
effectiveness of the power transmission: while you're compressing a
spring, I'm getting power straight into the ground.
My non-absorbing poles have been regularly used over all terrains for
over 4 years now, and I've never yet hurt my wrist with them. This
includes high speed wipeouts on skis, trekking through the Grand Canyon,
tottering through boulder fields, the Aonach Eagach ridge in Glencoe
(though not the pinnacles section!), bogtrotting, forest trails in the
Adirondacks, etc. etc., and jarred wrists are just not a problem if you
use them like a cross country skier. These are people who *rely* on
poles for a lot of their forward progress, and they prefer the most
rigid models available, simply because they work better.
A SA would come in handy breaking your fall, but this advantage is
outweighed by all the negatives. if you were *really* worried about
breaking hypothetical falls you should be walking in knee pads and wrist
guards...
Dr. David Martin
In article <32B143...@dundee.ac.uk>,
Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
+>Gavin Parry wrote:
+>
+>> I manage with 1, 2 would relive the force more but i find it too
hard to
+>> co-ordinate them both.
+>
+>It's actually easier to co-ordinate 2, as they follow a natural
walking
+>Nooooooooooooooo! The shock absorbers are no use at all if you're
using
+>the poles optimally. The poles should be placed by letting them
swing
+>into place with practically no grip on them at all: just let them
swing
+>between thumb and index finger, so if they do bump into something
they
+>just bounce off with practically no shock at all.
+>
+>Once they're planted, you load them gradually, so there is no shock
load
+>to absorb.
Plant next to the opposite foot, you want about the same length as a
cross country skier (maybe a fraction shorter) but not as short as a
normal walking stick.
Put the hands up through the wrist loops and then bring them down
grasp the handles and the wrist loops together. The weight should be
on the wrists, not on the hands (ie on the loop, not on the handle)
+>My non-absorbing poles have been regularly used over all terrains
for
+>over 4 years now, and I've never yet hurt my wrist with them. This
+>includes high speed wipeouts on skis, trekking through the Grand
Canyon,
+>tottering through boulder fields, the Aonach Eagach ridge in Glencoe
+>(though not the pinnacles section!), bogtrotting, forest trails in
the
+>Adirondacks, etc. etc., and jarred wrists are just not a problem if
you
+>use them like a cross country skier. These are people who *rely* on
+>poles for a lot of their forward progress, and they prefer the most
+>rigid models available, simply because they work better.
+>
Hear hear.. though I can't claim to have quite the mileage of your
poles I can definitely vouch to their usefulness. Folding ones are
good for trekking as you can put them on the pack when the going gets
fun which is a bit difficult with normal Xcountry ski poles.
Peter Clinch
Dr. David Martin wrote:
> Plant next to the opposite foot, you want about the same length as a
> cross country skier (maybe a fraction shorter) but not as short as a
> normal walking stick.
I use a fair bit shorter... about 120/125 for walking as opposed to
140/145 for XC skiing, as you don't have the need (or opportunity) for
nearly the same amount of follow-through when on foot: double poling
just push you as far... but this isn't a problem with adjustable poles,
as you can experiment until you get the length right for your personal
style.
> Put the hands up through the wrist loops and then bring them down
> grasp the handles and the wrist loops together. The weight should be
> on the wrists, not on the hands (ie on the loop, not on the handle)
Absolutely! This is the most common mistake I see from other people out
with poles. It makes a huge difference if you use the loop for support
rather than just something to drape loosely round your wrist.
Rick
>I use a fair bit shorter... about 120/125 for walking as opposed to
>140/145 for XC skiing, as you don't have the need (or opportunity) for
>nearly the same amount of follow-through when on foot: double poling
>just push you as far... but this isn't a problem with adjustable poles,
>as you can experiment until you get the length right for your personal
>style.
<SNIP>
I have just bought a single Leki 'tour-light' with a ski-pole
type grip. It says in the instructions that the correct adjustment is
when your forearm is at a right angle to your body. I don't know how
this compares to XC ski poles but I just thought I would mention it.
Does anyone know anything about the tour-light stick? Is 23 ukp
a good price? I knocked them down from 24.50 ukp.
Well, Seasonal Greetings to you all,
Regards,
Rick
\\\|///
\\ ~ ~ //
( @ @ )
---------------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-----------------------------
! E-Mail: ri...@airtime.co.uk !
! Burnley, Lancashire, UK !
! Home Page: http://www.airtime.co.uk/users/rick !
! !
! "We do not inherit the earth from our parents, !
! we borrow it from our children" !
-----------------------------------Oooo.-----------------------------
.oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)