Victoria Line at Buckingham Palace (was Re: Station naming)
David Connor
John Wright wrote:
> Roland Perry wrote:
>> Alistair Bell writes:
>
>>>In fact I notice that the direct route from Victoria to Green Park
goes
>>>directly under Buck House, but that the Victoria Line was actually
diverted
>>>so that it doesn't take the direct route and instead has a nasty
kink in it
>>>outside the Victoria Memorial. Did somebody kowtow to one? Why
should the
>>>Queen be so privileged as to be exempted from having a Tube line
under her
>>>house (or even her back garden)?
>>
>>Something to do with terrorists, perhaps?
>
> More likely vibration or noise I would have thought.
The story I heard was that in the aftermath of WW2, secret atomic bomb
shelters for the Royals were built under Buckingham Palace. When the
Victoria Line came to be built, it had to avoid these shelters, but as
they were secret LT wasn't allowed to say *why* the line didn't pass
under the palace. If these shelters do exist, they may well have been
obsolete and disused by the time the Victoria Line was built, as
government shelters of that era [1] are allegedly blast proof but not
radiation proof.
When I was at school, one of my teachers was interested in such things.
He told me that there was a secret door connecting the Vic with these
shelters, and once he'd been past on a train when they'd accidentally
left it open! He also said that the Piccadilly Line is so curved in
the Knightsbridge area because it had to avoid many pre-existing vaults
and strongrooms. In light of the former story, I've nether been sure
if I should believe the latter.
I found it interesting that LUL were refused permission to built the
new Westminster JLE station under Parliament Square, which was their
preferred location. Instead, they have had to totally rebuilt the
existing station. While there are little-known government shelters in
that area that are in the public domain, I wonder if there are also
secret shelters that even LUL are not aware of? Or maybe the
government just wanted LUL to part-fund their new offices above the
present station :-) ?
I'm not sure how seriously terrorism was taken before the Northern
Irish situation deteriorated in 1968-9. Apparently it is fairly easy
to gain access to the Tyburn, a river which passes under the palace.
It is obviously taken seriously today - it seems that LUL will not tell
you how deep the Victoria Line is where it passes the palace. Noise
and vibration don't seem to have been considered grounds to divert the
line anywhere else. Perhaps LT were just scared that the Bill to
construct the line would be refused Royal Assent if it went too close
to the palace. :-)
BTW, I once spoke to a senior manager of Ulsterbus about the legally
dubious status of the Black Taxi routes operating in parts of Northern
Ireland. He told me that a similarly dubious "service" of shared taxis
used to run between Victoria and Green Park until the Victoria Line
opened. Does anyone have any recollections of this?
[1] - This is what I've heard about the Post Office tunnels of the
early 50s anyway.
--
David Connor
Rotherhithe, London, UK
cross-posted to uk.rec.subterranea
Martin Briscoe
The message <01bd742c$32912d00$LocalHost@default>
from "David Connor" <dco...@dircon.co.uk> contains these words:
> I'm not sure how seriously terrorism was taken before the Northern
> Irish situation deteriorated in 1968-9. Apparently it is fairly easy
> to gain access to the Tyburn, a river which passes under the palace.
There was a feature on working in the London sewers in the paper the
other week, it mentioned that CCTV cameras were fitted in the sewers
in sensitive areas like under Buckingham Palace.
--
---- Martin Briscoe - Fort William - Inverness-shire ----
-------------- martin....@zetnet.co.uk --------------
Iain Docherty
Is there a cab ride video of the Victoria Line available? Perhaps there
might be some evidence of any shelter connection on this.
However, I've always thought that if a rail escape route from the Palace
and/or Westminster existed, it would have to point at the Great Western
Mainline, as the principal secret squirrel government shelter is built
under a hill outside Bath. In fact, I believe a pair of tracks to the
shelter diverges from the GWML through a set of serious steel gates set
into the hillside which are quite visible.
--
Iain
idoc...@geog.gla.ac.uk
http://www.geog.gla.ac.uk/~idocherty/index.htm
Roland Perry
In article <3549A6...@geog.gla.ac.uk>, Iain Docherty
<idoc...@geog.gla.ac.uk> writes
>However, I've always thought that if a rail escape route from the Palace
>and/or Westminster existed, it would have to point at the Great Western
>Mainline
Which the Central, Piccadilly and District do (via Ealing Broadway).
Anyone remember what the supposed route of the "Bullion Trains" is?
--
"Time is an illusion. Launch times doubly so".
Pink Floyd's Apostle
Iain Docherty wrote:
>
> Is there a cab ride video of the Victoria Line available? Perhaps there
> might be some evidence of any shelter connection on this.
>
> and/or Westminster existed, it would have to point at the Great Western
> under a hill outside Bath. In fact, I believe a pair of tracks to the
> shelter diverges from the GWML through a set of serious steel gates set
> into the hillside which are quite visible.
>
> --
>
> Iain
Really? Where abouts? I would have thought that the site would have been
hidden a bit more than that....
:-)
Ian
--
Spreading the word of our lords Pink Floyd to the Heathen
Dave Liquorice
On Fri, 01 May 1998 18:12:34 +0100, Pink Floyd's Apostle wrote:
>> as the principal secret squirrel government shelter is built
>> under a hill outside Bath. In fact, I believe a pair of tracks to
>> the shelter diverges from the GWML through a set of serious steel
>> gates set into the hillside which are quite visible.
>
> Really? Where abouts? I would have thought that the site would have
> been hidden a bit more than that....
There was a very big MOD underground storeage facilty near Bath but
that closed a few years ago. Local news had the story and who was going
to buy the vast, multilevel, storage facilty. I *think* it ened up with
a company planning to use it to provide for secure data/document
storage.
--
Cheers new...@nexus.demon.co.uk
Dave. Remove "spam" for valid email.
Duncan Hawkins
On 30 Apr 98 12:48:57 GMT, "David Connor" <dco...@dircon.co.uk>
wrote:
SNIP
>
>The story I heard was that in the aftermath of WW2, secret atomic bomb
>shelters for the Royals were built under Buckingham Palace. When the
>Victoria Line came to be built, it had to avoid these shelters, but as
>they were secret LT wasn't allowed to say *why* the line didn't pass
>under the palace. If these shelters do exist, they may well have been
>obsolete and disused by the time the Victoria Line was built, as
>government shelters of that era [1] are allegedly blast proof but not
>radiation proof.
>
>When I was at school, one of my teachers was interested in such things.
> He told me that there was a secret door connecting the Vic with these
>shelters, and once he'd been past on a train when they'd accidentally
>left it open! He also said that the Piccadilly Line is so curved in
>the Knightsbridge area because it had to avoid many pre-existing vaults
>and strongrooms. In light of the former story, I've nether been sure
>if I should believe the latter.
>
>I found it interesting that LUL were refused permission to built the
>new Westminster JLE station under Parliament Square, which was their
>preferred location. Instead, they have had to totally rebuilt the
>existing station. While there are little-known government shelters in
>that area that are in the public domain, I wonder if there are also
>secret shelters that even LUL are not aware of? Or maybe the
>government just wanted LUL to part-fund their new offices above the
>present station :-) ?
>
>I'm not sure how seriously terrorism was taken before the Northern
>Irish situation deteriorated in 1968-9. Apparently it is fairly easy
>to gain access to the Tyburn, a river which passes under the palace.
>It is obviously taken seriously today - it seems that LUL will not tell
>you how deep the Victoria Line is where it passes the palace. Noise
>and vibration don't seem to have been considered grounds to divert the
>line anywhere else. Perhaps LT were just scared that the Bill to
>construct the line would be refused Royal Assent if it went too close
>to the palace. :-)
>
>BTW, I once spoke to a senior manager of Ulsterbus about the legally
>dubious status of the Black Taxi routes operating in parts of Northern
>Ireland. He told me that a similarly dubious "service" of shared taxis
>used to run between Victoria and Green Park until the Victoria Line
>opened. Does anyone have any recollections of this?
>
I read somewhere that the underground NCP car park in Park Lane under
Hyde Park is not the only property under the park. There may be
further shelters underneath. Certainly there are levels below
whitehall,
Duncan
E17
ch...@transdata.co.nz
In article <01bd742c$32912d00$LocalHost@default>#1/1,
"David Connor" <dco...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The story I heard was that in the aftermath of WW2, secret atomic bomb
> shelters for the Royals were built under Buckingham Palace. When the
> Victoria Line came to be built, it had to avoid these shelters, but as
> they were secret LT wasn't allowed to say *why* the line didn't pass
> under the palace.
'Private Eye' noted at the time that the Victoria Line was being built that
it had been diverted round buckingham palace because Phil had said that he
wasn;t going to have any &^%$# trains running under *his* basement.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Marc Cornelius
In article <JoOIzHA4...@netcom.net.uk>, Roland Perry
<rol...@perry.co.uk> writes
[central]
>Which the Central, Piccadilly and District do (via Ealing Broadway).
[snip]
Central - yes; District - yes; Piccadilly - no (Ealing Common).
Although I guess that as the District and Piccadilly run over the same
same tracks to just beyeond Ealing Common it shouldn't be very difficult
to divert the Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway.
--
Marc Cornelius
Leslie Hayward
The line leading underground was first dug to enable stone to be removed
from the tunnel quarry. It was later enlarged when the mine was adopted
for ammunition storage
during WW2. It is currently out of use and sealed a little distance in,
although
the underground station remains, it has been disused for some time.
For greater detail on this see the "Corsham" reference in the RSG list
of sites.
Les. H.
Brian Stephens
> Iain Docherty wrote:
> >
> > However, I've always thought that if a rail escape route from the Palace
> > and/or Westminster existed, it would have to point at the Great Western
> > under a hill outside Bath. In fact, I believe a pair of tracks to the
> > shelter diverges from the GWML through a set of serious steel gates set
> > into the hillside which are quite visible.
> >
>
> Really? Where abouts? I would have thought that the site would have been
> hidden a bit more than that....
>
Look to the right just as your about to enter Box tunnel going West!
Regards
Brian S.
Clive Coleman
In article <6ie4bc$fkj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, ch...@transdata.co.nz
writes
the land realise that "ENGLISH" people live here to.
--
Clive Coleman
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <01bd742c$32912d00$LocalHost@default>, David Connor
<dco...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>He also said that the Piccadilly Line is so curved in
>the Knightsbridge area because it had to avoid many pre-existing vaults
>and strongrooms. In light of the former story, I've nether been sure
>if I should believe the latter.
Don't. The line followed the roads for most of its length, but
approaching South Kensington it zigzags to line up with the District
Line, because at the last moment it was merged with the Deep Level
District.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Director of Software Development | Home email:
Tel: +44 181 371 1138 | Demon Internet Ltd. | <cl...@davros.org>
Fax: +44 181 371 1037 | <cl...@demon.net> |
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Richard Griffin
"Clive D.W. Feather" <cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> writes:
> David Connor <dco...@dircon.co.uk> writes
> >He also said that the Piccadilly Line is so curved in
> >the Knightsbridge area because it had to avoid many pre-existing vaults
> >and strongrooms. In light of the former story, I've nether been sure
> >if I should believe the latter.
>
> Don't. The line followed the roads for most of its length, but
> approaching South Kensington it zigzags to line up with the District
> Line, because at the last moment it was merged with the Deep Level
> District.
Is it true that seperate tube platforms exist at South Ken which were
built for, but never used by, the MDR?
TIA,
Richard.
Piers R Connor
Richard Griffin wrote:
> Is it true that seperate tube platforms exist at South Ken which were
> built for, but never used by, the MDR?
Yes, they were used by the LU signal school for years.
--
Best regards,
Piers, Singapore
Railway Technical Web Pages
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8788/
Paul
AFAIK there is a connecting tunnel from the Jubilee Line beyond Charing
+ (which runs as far as Aldwych) to one set of tunnels under Whitehall -
the pre-atomic set I think.
As for bullion runs, I regularly see a bullion convoy travelling down
Theobald's Road (not by rail, I add).
Paul
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <354EA2AE...@pacific.net.sg>, Piers R Connor
<prco...@pacific.net.sg> writes
>> Is it true that seperate tube platforms exist at South Ken which were
>> built for, but never used by, the MDR?
>Yes, they were used by the LU signal school for years.
Are you sure ? I know the tunnels extended for a short distance and that
section was used for the school, but I thought that the only station
tunnels were those in present use.
Bill Foote
Clive,
Many years ago (early to mid 1960s), when South Ken. still
had the two stop lifts to the Piccy. platforms, you could
see the DDL plaform tunnels from the lower lift landing
cross passages - havent been there for ages, but guess that
the rebuilding for escalators resulted in these cross
passages being closed off or filled in
Bill
--
====================================================================
Bill Foote, +44 (0)118-931-8439
(Voice, DDI)
Applications & Advanced Computing,
Computer Services, +44 (0)118-975-3094
(Telefax)
The University of Reading,
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READING, RG6 6AF, U.K. w.d.n...@reading.ac.uk
(email)
====================================================================
David Connor
Clive D.W. Feather <cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Piers R Connor <prco...@pacific.net.sg> writes:
> >
> > Richard Griffin asked:
> >> Is it true that seperate tube platforms exist at South Ken which
> >> were built for, but never used by, the MDR?
> >
> >Yes, they were used by the LU signal school for years.
>
> Are you sure ? I know the tunnels extended for a short distance and
> that section was used for the school, but I thought that the only
> station tunnels were those in present use.
South Kensington tube station was planned as a junction between the
Piccadilly Line and the Deep-level District, a proposed tube line to
Mansion House. The westbound Piccadilly platform was built below the
eastbound platform, with provision for the Deep-level District
alongside. The lifts had an intermediate stop for the eastbound
platform, a feature supposedly unique on the system [1].
A 120-foot long (ie rather short!) westbound platform tunnel was built
for the Deep-level District, alongside the westbound Piccadilly
platform, and was partly tiled in the usual Yerkes style. It was used
as a signal school from 1927 until 1939, and then as the emergency HQ
of the LT engineering services department during WW2. I'm not sure
what happened to it in the postwar period. A photo of the signal
school appeared in "Sixty Years of the Piccadilly" (Charles E Lee,
published by LT in 1966), and the same photo is included in "London's
Early Tube Railways" (Nigel Pennick, published by Runestaff - Old
England in 1987).
The lifts were replaced by escalators in 1973-4, with the lower
escalator landing about mid-way between the two platform levels.
Stairs lead up to the eastbound and down to the westbound levels. It
looks as if the stairs down to the westbound platform, and the passage
leading from the bottom of these stairs, may be built within the old
Deep-level District platform.
Some people refer to one District platform, while others refer to two.
It would appear that only one was used for the training school, and I
don't know whether a separate eastbound platform was built, or even
planned. Having separate (westbound) platforms for the converging
routes, but only one (eastbound) platform for the diverging routes,
would seem acceptable. (This layout would be similar to the 1939-79
arrangement for the Bakerloo at Baker Street.)
I had a good look around South Ken this afternoon, and it appears that
a three-platform layout was chosen. A never-used junction seems to
have been built to the west of the station on the westbound line, but I
couldn't see an eastbound equivalent west of the station. Instead, a
rudimentary junction seems to exist immediately east of the eastbound
platform. The large-diameter tunnel continues beyond the end of the
platform, as if to form a chamber for a junction. The running line
turns sharply to the left, but there seems to be a tunnel going
straight on as well, protected by a grey-painted wooden barricade.
Strangely, this didn't look large enough to be a running tunnel, but it
was really difficult to see [2]. Piers, is this what you refer to on
p30 of "Going Green"?
[1] - This is often stated as unique, but I wonder if St Pauls and
Chancery Lane also had two lower lift landings. I guess Westminster
JLE station will have this feature too. Certainly some JLE lifts will
have intermediate stops available only to LUL staff, to allow equipment
to be delivered.
[2] - I should be going to the LURS meeting on Friday. If anyone else
who's going owns a really powerful torch, please email me, so we can
meet and have a good look at this tunnel from the platform, after the
meeting ends. :-)
David Connor
Clive D.W. Feather <cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> David Connor <dco...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>
> >He also said that the Piccadilly Line is so curved in
> >the Knightsbridge area because it had to avoid many pre-existing
> >vaults and strongrooms. In light of the former story, I've never
> >been sure if I should believe the latter.
>
> Don't. The line followed the roads for most of its length, but
> approaching South Kensington it zigzags to line up with the District
> Line, because at the last moment it was merged with the Deep Level
> District.
Of course! Thanks for clarifying things. I knew about the sharp
curves, and something of the layout at South Ken, but for some reason
never connected the two.
Next, I suppose you'll tell me that another of his stories (that the
Circle is so curved in the Aldgate area because they had to thread the
line between plague pits) is also a myth. :-(
Still, even if some of his Underground "facts" were inaccurate, he
certainly encouraged interest in the subject.
Steve Way
In article <01bd7938$f7b1dc40$LocalHost@default>, David Connor
<dco...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>[1] - This is often stated as unique, but I wonder if St Pauls and
>Chancery Lane also had two lower lift landings. I guess Westminster
>JLE station will have this feature too. Certainly some JLE lifts will
>have intermediate stops available only to LUL staff, to allow equipment
>to be delivered.
I don't know about St. Pauls, but Chancery Lane was extensively rebuilt
in the 1930s to the current layout. I suspect the orginal only had one
lift landing.
--
Steve Way
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <GxuHsRAY...@ways.demon.co.uk>, Steve Way
<Stev...@ways.demon.co.uk> writes
>>[1] - This is often stated as unique, but I wonder if St Pauls and
>>Chancery Lane also had two lower lift landings.
>in the 1930s to the current layout. I suspect the orginal only had one
>lift landing.
According to the article in Underground News, there was only one lower
landing. There may have been a rebuild, but I don't think it involved
new running tunnels.
The article also states that the GN&CR lifts at Moorgate were planned as
two-level lifts (like those in the Eiffel Tower).
Graeme Wall
In message <354A02...@sheffield.ac.uk>
Pink Floyd's Apostle <JOA9...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:
> Iain Docherty wrote:
> >
> > Is there a cab ride video of the Victoria Line available? Perhaps there
> > might be some evidence of any shelter connection on this.
> >
> > However, I've always thought that if a rail escape route from the Palace
> > and/or Westminster existed, it would have to point at the Great Western
> > Mainline, as the principal secret squirrel government shelter is built
> > under a hill outside Bath. In fact, I believe a pair of tracks to the
> > shelter diverges from the GWML through a set of serious steel gates set
> > into the hillside which are quite visible.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Iain
>
> Really? Where abouts? I would have thought that the site would have been
> hidden a bit more than that....
>
> :-)
>
> Ian
>
Ah the dreaded "secret" govt establishment under Box Hill, (confused me at
one time as I thought they meant the one in Surrey :-)). There are quite a
few hideouts under various hills around London, You can visit the one at
Waltham Abbey in Essex. A wonderful example of Government paranoia.
--
Graeme Wall
Television Cameraman: www.greywall.demon.co.uk
Duncan Hawkins
Where exactly is the Waltham Abbey site? I don't know of any Hilltop
bunkers in London (other than the basements of Ally Pally).
Duncan
Graeme Wall
In message <355313b4....@read.news.global.net.uk>
int...@globalnet.co.uk (Duncan Hawkins) wrote:
> Where exactly is the Waltham Abbey site? I don't know of any Hilltop
> bunkers in London (other than the basements of Ally Pally).
>
Just discovered I was talking complete cobblers, the one you can visit is at
Kelvedon Hatch off the A128 out of Brentford
It`s in the middle of a farm a way outside the village, you definitely need a
car to get to it, but it is reasonably well signposted. Nearest station
(desperate attempt to make it relevant to the newsgroup) would have been
Ongar. For the others see Warplan UK or, if you can find it, Beneath the
City Streets.
Bill
I think you mean Brentwood, Essex- and you'd have trouble getting there
via Ongar as LUL have shut the Epping to Ongar line......
ISTR that the entrance to the bunker is a small building in the middle
of a wood that looks like a house, but has a lift shaft that goes down
some distance to a quite extensive underground facility. It was
mentioned on regional news a year or two back because HMG were hoping to
find a buyer for it!
Bill (aka Essex Man)
Annabel Smyth
Quoting Graeme Wall <Gra...@greywall.demon.co.uk>:
>In message <355313b4....@read.news.global.net.uk>
> int...@globalnet.co.uk (Duncan Hawkins) wrote:
>
>> Where exactly is the Waltham Abbey site? I don't know of any Hilltop
>> bunkers in London (other than the basements of Ally Pally).
>>
>Just discovered I was talking complete cobblers, the one you can visit is at
>Kelvedon Hatch off the A128 out of Brentford
>
There's a large article about it in today's "Observer".
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 3 May 1998
Chris Heathcote
On Sun, 10 May 1998 19:04:25 +0100, Bill <ant...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
> I think you mean Brentwood, Essex- and you'd have trouble getting there
>via Ongar as LUL have shut the Epping to Ongar line......
>ISTR that the entrance to the bunker is a small building in the middle
>of a wood that looks like a house, but has a lift shaft that goes down
>some distance to a quite extensive underground facility. It was
>mentioned on regional news a year or two back because HMG were hoping to
>find a buyer for it!
...and it was sold and is regularly open to the public in the summer.
Follow the brown recreational signs to "Secret Nuclear Bunker".
c.
--
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|chris (a) deaddodo.com http://www.deaddodo.com ICQ: 6803574|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| Da Bunny speak Da Truth |
| http://www.undergroundlondon.com/bunny/ |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
Mike Burgess
In article <3555EC...@netcomuk.co.uk>, Bill <ant...@netcomuk.co.uk>
dipped the pen in the ink and wrote...
>Graeme Wall wrote:
>>
>> In message <355313b4....@read.news.global.net.uk>
>> int...@globalnet.co.uk (Duncan Hawkins) wrote:
>>
>> > Where exactly is the Waltham Abbey site? I don't know of any Hilltop
>> > bunkers in London (other than the basements of Ally Pally).
>> >
>> Just discovered I was talking complete cobblers, the one you can visit is at
>> Kelvedon Hatch off the A128 out of Brentford
>>
>> car to get to it, but it is reasonably well signposted. Nearest station
>> (desperate attempt to make it relevant to the newsgroup) would have been
>> Ongar. For the others see Warplan UK or, if you can find it, Beneath the
>> City Streets.
>> --
>> Graeme Wall
>> Television Cameraman: www.greywall.demon.co.uk
>
>via Ongar as LUL have shut the Epping to Ongar line......
>ISTR that the entrance to the bunker is a small building in the middle
>of a wood that looks like a house, but has a lift shaft that goes down
>some distance to a quite extensive underground facility. It was
>mentioned on regional news a year or two back because HMG were hoping to
>find a buyer for it!
For 'resonably well signposted' read, a large sign with 'Secret Nuclear
Bunker ->' on it .. :-)
For 'small building' read, bungalow ..
For 'lift shaft' read, tunnel ..
Sold to the son of the original land owner, who is now the current land
owner, who has opened it up as a museum.. Well worth a visit..
Perhaps others can give contact details..
--
Mike Burgess, Slough, Berkshire, UK : University of Life...
Packet Radio: G7HID @ GB7WIR.#42.GBR.EU : If it ain't broke
Web Page: http://www.g7hid.demon.co.uk : don't fix it !
Email: Replace 'nospam' with 'g7hid' :
Roland Perry
> I think you mean Brentwood, Essex
Pendantically, you'll find that Shenfield station is closer; but
Brentwood [High St] will be much better for busses towards Ongar.
--
"Time is an illusion. Launch times doubly so".
Piers R Connor
David Connor wrote:
big snip
> I had a good look around South Ken this afternoon, and it appears that
> a three-platform layout was chosen. A never-used junction seems to
> have been built to the west of the station on the westbound line,
I worked on the Picc for years but I can't remember seeing anything like
that. Still, it was a long time ago.
> but I
> couldn't see an eastbound equivalent west of the station. Instead, a
> rudimentary junction seems to exist immediately east of the eastbound
> platform. The large-diameter tunnel continues beyond the end of the
> platform, as if to form a chamber for a junction. The running line
> turns sharply to the left, but there seems to be a tunnel going
> straight on as well, protected by a grey-painted wooden barricade.
> Strangely, this didn't look large enough to be a running tunnel, but it
> was really difficult to see [2]. Piers, is this what you refer to on
> p30 of "Going Green"?
Yes.
Duncan Hawkins
>In message <355313b4....@read.news.global.net.uk>
> int...@globalnet.co.uk (Duncan Hawkins) wrote:
>
>> Where exactly is the Waltham Abbey site? I don't know of any Hilltop
>> bunkers in London (other than the basements of Ally Pally).
>>
>Just discovered I was talking complete cobblers, the one you can visit is at
>Kelvedon Hatch off the A128 out of Brentford
>
>It`s in the middle of a farm a way outside the village, you definitely need a
>car to get to it, but it is reasonably well signposted. Nearest station
>(desperate attempt to make it relevant to the newsgroup) would have been
>Ongar. For the others see Warplan UK or, if you can find it, Beneath the
>City Streets.
>--
>Graeme Wall
>Television Cameraman: www.greywall.demon.co.uk
Hi Graeme and all,
I knew about Kelvedon Hatch, I didn't know about one at Waltham Cross.
I thought you may have stumbled across a new site perhaps at the
former PERME government complex.
The K Hatch site was indeed sold to the Farmers family who owns the
land around it. It was sold a couple of years ago for 100K, and the
sales information carries a letter from Brentwood Council that states
clearly that any use which increases the traffic into that site is
forbidden, and no planning permission exists nor will be granted to
keep the antenna mast.
A similar site near Norwich was sold for 50k, which included 19,000 sq
ft of storage.
Duncan
E17
A.Boodoo
Duncan Hawkins wrote:
<big snip>
> A similar site near Norwich was sold for 50k, which included 19,000 sq
> ft of storage.
Was that all? I know someone who wanted to buy that to develop a small
hotel, but didn't quite make it.
At least I think it's that site - they mentioned something about a
nuclear bunker.
A.Boodoo
Mike Burgess
In article <35571c99...@read.news.global.net.uk>, Duncan Hawkins
<int...@globalnet.co.uk> dipped the pen in the ink and wrote...
(...)
>The K Hatch site was indeed sold to the Farmers family who owns the
>land around it. It was sold a couple of years ago for 100K, and the
>sales information carries a letter from Brentwood Council that states
>clearly that any use which increases the traffic into that site is
>forbidden, and no planning permission exists nor will be granted to
>keep the antenna mast.
The antenna mast is being used by Orange as a mobile phone cell site,
so planning permission might not come into it..
Ric Euteneuer
I think he means the one at Kelvedon Hatch. There use dto be a huge one
at Goostrey in Cheshire. Rather gave the game away that there were loads
of sidings with no particular purpose, a very long platform at the
station and visible vents from the bunker next to the Crewe to
Manchester line
Graeme Wall
In message <3555EC...@netcomuk.co.uk>
Bill <ant...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall wrote:
ed a
> > car to get to it, but it is reasonably well signposted. Nearest station
> > (desperate attempt to make it relevant to the newsgroup) would have been
> > Ongar. For the others see Warplan UK or, if you can find it, Beneath the
> > City Streets.
> > --
> > Graeme Wall
> > Television Cameraman: www.greywall.demon.co.uk
>
> I think you mean Brentwood, Essex- and you'd have trouble getting there
> via Ongar as LUL have shut the Epping to Ongar line......
Hence the use of the past tense :-) Brentwood is the nearest open station
but it is a long way to walk, it would have been feasable to walk from Ongar
:-(
Any news on what is going to happen to Epping -Ongar or is it past hope?
Graeme Wall
> Graeme Wall wrote:
at
> > Kelvedon Hatch off the A128 out of Brentford
> >
>
> I think you mean Brentwood, Essex- )
OOPS, sorry, I seem tp have a fixation on Brentford for some reason, I think
I`ll go for a lie down..... Mornington Crescent!
Writes out 100 times Brentwood, not Brentford
Andrew Emmerson
This material (updated from the Sound & Vision Yearbook, which I compile
for the publisher) may help... Corrections, additions and updates
welcomed.
STATE SECRETS
-------------
Oops, we forgot to put 'Former' in the title. But you can get a sort of
frisson visiting places where even five years ago, showing any suspicious
interest in these covert installations would have led to your name being
taken and goodness knows what else. Today you can go on a guided tour of
the installations listed and there are plenty more semi-secret 'spooky'
places that you can photograph. But you'll have to read Duncan Campbell's
books to find out where they are - we don't have the room here.
Background reading
------------------
BENEATH THE CITY STREETS by Peter Laurie. Published by Granada Publishing
Ltd, 1983. The secret plans to defend the State.
FORTRESS SCOTLAND by Michael Spaven. Published by Pluto Press, 1983. A
guide to the military presence.
THE UNSINKABLE AIRCRAFT CARRIER by Duncan Campbell. Published by Michael
Joseph, 1984. American installations in Britain.
WAR PLAN UK by Duncan Campbell. Published by Paladin Books, 1983. The
secret truth about Britain's Civil Defence. This kind of book was mighty
fashionable in the early 1980s but the excitement seems to have died down.
Either that or everyone who was interested then has grown older and wiser.
Duncan Campbell's blockbuster revelation tome, SECRET PLACES, was
announced several years ago but has never appeared.
Places to visit
---------------
BATTLE OF BRITAIN CONTROL ROOM, RAF Uxbridge, Uxbridge, Middx.
(01895-237144). Underground operations room with all the plotting tables
and other parapheralia, preserved exactly as it was on the morning of 15th
September 1940. Individual and group visits, by appointment only. Contact
Warrant Officer Chris Wren.
CABINET WAR ROOMS, Clive Steps, King Charles Street, London, SW1 (0171-930
6961). Churchill's underground wartime headquarters, recreated to look as
if they have been left as they were at the time of the Blitz. All
telephone equipment on show. Open daily 10.00-17.15, admission charge.
EDEN CAMP, Malton, Yorks. (01653-697777). Open daily 10.00 to 17.00, from
mid-February to 23rd December. Located off the A64 York to Scarborough
road at the junction of the A169 to Pickering. A modern history theme
museum set in a 1942 prisoner of war camp, featuring a prefab, bomber
command room, replica Spitfire aircraft and a growing collection of
military vehicles.
ESSEX SECRET BUNKER, Crown Buildings, Shrublands Road, Furze Hill,
Mistley, Essex, CO11 1HS (01206-392271). Open daily 10.30-16.30. Former
Cold War period bunker, later the Essex county war headquarters. This
underground structure was built in 1951 and has been packed with 80 tons
of authentic Cold War period equipment, with the original plotting board
and other effects on display.
FORT WIDLEY, PORTSMOUTH. Fort Widley is a Palmerston fort on Portsdown
Hill defending the approaches to Portsmouth. As well as all the
fortification tunnels, it also houses an old Civil Defence control centre,
which is very well preserved, with airlocks, original ventilation, full
map room, teletypes and advice booklets. Open Easter Sunday to September
from 13.00-16.00 for guided tours, and at other times by appointment. Ring
01705-321223 for more details.
HACK GREEN RADAR STATION, Box 127, Nantwich, Cheshire, CW5 8AQ
(01270-629219, fax 01270-629218). Originally built as a radar station
during World War 2, the bunker was rebuilt as a top-secret Regional Seat
of Government during the 1970s, a function which it retained until 1993.
Preserved in excellent order, the three-level structure contains what were
government offices, dormitories, canteen and a BBC studio and now fulfils
a secure commercial purpose as well as housing an extensive museum of
civil defence and Cold War memorabilia. Normally securely closed to the
public, it is opened specially several times a year to organised groups
and for special open days. Write or telephone for details.
HELLFIRE CORNER at Dover Castle, Kent. Tour of once secret wartime
installations buried deep inside the cliffs includes tour of
communications room, with large quantities of old switchboards, amplifiers
and other equipment. The nucelar command centre of the 1960s is not yet on
show. Dover Castle is in the care of English Heritage and a single
admission fee is charged for admission to all the exhibits. Tours of the
secret underground tunnels leave approximately every 15 minutes in summer
and every 45 minutes in winter; the tour takes 50 minutes. The last tour
starts at 17.00 in summer and at 15.00 in winter. The castle opens daily
at 10.00 and closes at 18.00 (16.00 October to March)
KELVEDON HATCH R4 BUNKER, Kelvedon Hatch, Essex (01277-364883). Open daily
10.00-16.00 with tours on the hour. Formerly top secret, this huge
underground structure is an excellent example of an R4 Rotor bunker built
in the early 1950s as a Sector Operations Centre for the Metropolitan
Sector of Fighter Command. It later became a Sector Operations Centre for
UK Warning & Monitoring Organisation. being secret until recently, it is
not easy to find but look for an aerial symbol on the Ordnance map north
west of Brentwood, near Kelvedon Hatch or ring for directions.
ROYAL OBSERVER CORPS MUSEUM, located at the Norfolk and Suffolk Aviation
Museum, Flixton, near Bungay, Suffolk. Open Sundays and Bank Holidays;
phone 01502-562944 for information.
SCOTLAND'S SECRET BUNKER, Troywood, St Andrews, Fife, KY16 8QH
(01333-310301, fax 01333-312040). This is one of the underground nuclear
war command centres equipped in the 1960s, known to devotees as
Anstruther. It is open from Easter unti the end of October, from 10.00 to
18.00. Parties and coaches welcome. The communications centre, emergency
broadcasting studios and computer room are all preserved with authentic
artefacts.
VERYAN ROYAL OBSERVER CORPS POST, near Truro, Cornwall. Fully equipped
Royal Observer Corps post as it was in the Cold War period from 1960 to
1991. Two other sites of interest nearby. Visits to underground site by
arrangement with Lawrence Holmes, Rivergarth, Malpas, Truro, Cornwall, TR1
1SS (01872-78234); send SAE for free leaflet.
WESTERN APPROACHES COMMAND CENTRE, Derby House, 1 Rumford Street,
Liverpool, L2 3SZ (0151-227 2008). This underground headquarters was the
command centre for the Battle of the Atlantic during World War II.
Visitors today can see the RAF plotting room, the main operations room,
the cypher room, teleprinter room and the telephone exchange. Open all
year round but confirm by ringing the number shown.
Dealers
-------
MIKE MOORE, 35 Mason's Place, Newport, Salop, TF10 7JS (01952-405105.
Specialist bookseller for underground subjects including bunkers. Send SAE
for catalogue.
Societies
---------
No, we don't have a society for subversives or other enemies of the State
but anyone interested in all kinds of underground constructions of all
ages should join Sub Brit, as it is known.
SUBTERRANEA BRITANNICA. Secretary: Malcolm Tadd, 65 Trindles Road, South
Nutfield, Redhill, Surrey, RH1 4JL. Telephone 01737-823456.
RESEARCH STUDY GROUP (RSG), 23 Halstead Road, Earl's Colne, COLCHESTER,
Essex, CO6 2NG (01787-224729). The RSG has been formed to study, research,
document and preserve Britain's Cold War-period defences. It is a
non-political organisation and aims to present an objective view of the
infrastructure and plans used in the period 1945-1990 for the UK's
national defence.
Martin Briscoe
The message <7yJKDlAS...@dv-8.demon.co.uk>
from Dave <dv...@nospam.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> On Mon, 11 May 1998, Duncan Hawkins wrote;
> >I knew about Kelvedon Hatch, I didn't know about one at Waltham Cross.
> >I thought you may have stumbled across a new site perhaps at the
> >former PERME government complex.
> The red 'military installation' roadsign at the roundabout in Waltham
> Abbey (reading P.E.R.M.E.) bugged me for many years as I could not
> work out what it stood for. If anybody knows (or just has some silly
> suggestions!) please tell me.
Isn't the old Royal Gunpowder Factory ? PERME is probably something
to witj Propellant & Explosive Research? Manufacturing?Establishment.
There was a very good article on it the Telegraph magazine last year,
the whole site is full of historic buildings and is hopefully going
to me made into a museum.
Martin
Jeremy Folkes
In article <DaZJQMAf...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk>,
Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk (Annabel Smyth) wrote:
> There's a large article about it in today's "Observer".
> --
> Annabel Smyth
> Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
I read the Observer article but I've now lost it (well, left it on a
train) and I know it referenced a something-beginning-with-i.org web site
- if anyone can tell me the address I'd be grateful.
Thanks. Jeremy
David Connor
Piers R Connor <prco...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
> David Connor wrote:
>
> > I had a good look around South Ken this afternoon, and it appears
> > that a three-platform layout was chosen. A never-used junction
> > seems to have been built to the west of the station on the
> > westbound line, I worked on the Picc for years but I can't remember
> > seeing anything like that. Still, it was a long time ago.
Had another look yesterday, when passing through on the way to
Heathrow. About a car length beyond the platform, the tunnel opens out
suddenly on the southern side. This then gradually tapers until you
are in a normal-diameter running tunnel - a typical step-plate
junction. The space seems to be used for materials storage. Couldn't
see if there was a running tunnel connecting this to the short
platform.
BTW, I assume that the MDR platform tunnel at South Ken was so short
(120 feet) not because they were planning to run short trains, but
because they wanted to avoid disrupting the lift access to the
Piccadilly Line if and when the deep-level District was constructed.
Thus, they built the section of platform tunnel adjacent to the lift
shafts, and would have extended the platform to full length when
building the rest of the line. Which does not explain why the platform
was tiled......
> > but I couldn't see an eastbound equivalent west of the station.
> > Instead, a rudimentary junction seems to exist immediately
> > east of the eastbound platform. The large-diameter tunnel
> > continues beyond the end of the platform, as if to form a
> > chamber for a junction. The running line turns sharply to the
> > left, but there seems to be a tunnel going straight on as well,
> > protected by a grey-painted wooden barricade. Strangely,
> > this didn't look large enough to be a running tunnel, but it
> > was really difficult to see [2]. Piers, is this what you refer to
> > on p30 of "Going Green"?
>
> Yes.
Does anyone know how far this tunnel actually goes, and whether it had
a westbound equivalent? Has it ever seen any use (eg as a siding for
failed Piccadilly trains, or for offices during WW2)?
I suppose I'll have to wait until Prescott privatises the maintenance
of LUL infrastructure, so I can get occasional casual work as a
"fluffer" and explore. :-o
Graeme Wall
In message <01bd7eb4$17537380$LocalHost@default>
"David Connor" <dco...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> I suppose I'll have to wait until Prescott privatises the maintenance
> of LUL infrastructure, so I can get occasional casual work as a
> "fluffer" and explore. :-o
>
>
I thought a fluffer was the young lady who perfumed vital support services
for the cast of a blue movie....
Then again I could be right :-)
Clive D.W. Feather
In article <01bd7939$71c6e980$LocalHost@default>, David Connor
<dco...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>Next, I suppose you'll tell me that another of his stories (that the
>Circle is so curved in the Aldgate area because they had to thread the
>line between plague pits) is also a myth. :-(
I'm afraid that's in none of my sources either.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Director of Software Development | Home email:
Tel: +44 181 371 1138 | Demon Internet Ltd. | <cd...@i.am>
Fax: +44 181 371 1037 | <cl...@demon.net> | Home web:
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