Glasgow Rail tunnels - In the spirit of the Milk Crate Gang / Cane Hill Bunker / Williamson's tunnels
Panic
While visiting the UK in September this year (2002) I managed to
explore quite a few tunnels and meet some very nice underground
explorers.
The highlights of the trip were finally reaching Glasgow to film and
photograph the abandoned Glasgow tunnels that I had seen so long ago
on the Milk Crate Gang's web site (Which I have a partial local copy
of but seek missing parts). The Botanic Gardens station was
particuarly beautiful, as was London Road.
Also I loved the Williamson's tunnels and Cane Hill bunker. There's
more info on the web site:
Http://urbanadventure.org and headfor the 2002 trip page.
The pages are image intensive, but as I get more free time I will
split them into smaller pages for faster loading times. I belive in
exploring first, photographing second and making a web site in the
small amount of time in between. :)
Nick Leverton
Panic <panic...@urbanadventure.org> wrote:
>
>The highlights of the trip were finally reaching Glasgow to film and
>photograph the abandoned Glasgow tunnels that I had seen so long ago
>on the Milk Crate Gang's web site (Which I have a partial local copy
>of but seek missing parts). The Botanic Gardens station was
>particuarly beautiful, as was London Road.
Great pictures, particularly loved the ones of Glasgow Green and London
Road ! Links duly added to http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/botanic/ :-)
Nick
Panic
>
> Great pictures, particularly loved the ones of Glasgow Green and London
> Road ! Links duly added to http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/botanic/ :-)
>
> Nick
Thanks Nick! I love your pictures, the one with the lawn at Botanic
Gardens is particuarly nice. Is that Angela at the station? Or Megan?
And hey, look what I just found:
http://web.archive.org/web/19981203023911/http://www.waverleyltd.co.uk/subway/mcg-001.htm
Jim Mason
panic...@urbanadventure.org says
>Just a short one.
>While visiting the UK in September this year (2002) I managed to
>explore quite a few tunnels and meet some very nice underground
>explorers.
>
>The highlights of the trip were finally reaching Glasgow to film and
>photograph the abandoned Glasgow tunnels that I had seen so long ago
>on the Milk Crate Gang's web site (Which I have a partial local copy
>of but seek missing parts).
I have a full copy, e-mail me off list to tell me what bits you need.
Jim
J Houston
"Panic" <panic...@urbanadventure.org> wrote in message
news:dbc34180.02112...@posting.google.com...
> The highlights of the trip were finally reaching Glasgow to film and
> photograph the abandoned Glasgow tunnels that I had seen so long ago
> on the Milk Crate Gang's web site (Which I have a partial local copy
> of but seek missing parts). The Botanic Gardens station was
> particuarly beautiful, as was London Road.
>
> Also I loved the Williamson's tunnels and Cane Hill bunker. There's
> more info on the web site:
>
> Http://urbanadventure.org and headfor the 2002 trip page.
>
Panic - the picture
http://www.urbanadventure.org/2002trip/scotland/dcp17784.jpg
is actually Anderston, not Charing Cross.
James H
Kev Stacey
> Thanks Nick! I love your pictures, the one with the lawn at Botanic
> Gardens is particuarly nice. Is that Angela at the station? Or Megan?
>
> And hey, look what I just found:
> http://web.archive.org/web/19981203023911/http://www.waverleyltd.co.uk/subway/mcg-001.htm
Loved your pictures of the Glasgow stations and tunnels, fascinating!
The archive of the milk crate gang's site doesn't include the
pictures. I was wondering if you knew anywhere on the net where I
could find these?
Cheers
Kev
Jim Mason
largekev...@hotmail.com says
Hi Kev
I have replied off list re this.
Jim
Panic
>
> Panic - the picture
> http://www.urbanadventure.org/2002trip/scotland/dcp17784.jpg
> is actually Anderston, not Charing Cross.
>
>
>
> James H
Thanks James. Now that people have pointed out to me I do recall
taking several photos of Anderston station. Including one of the sign
saying the tunnel was 3533 metres long.
I must say I loved Glasgow, it is a very beautiful and historic city.
With all those nice tunnels to boot. Count yourself lucky to live in
or have visited such a vibrant and happening city. I know some must
think I'm stark raving bonkers to say such nice things about
Glasgow, but trust me after travelling around the world and visiting
many cities, Glasgow was definetly one of my favorites.
And speaking of the Milk Crate Gang, anyone know what happened to the
members such as Megan and Angela? Last I heard they had moved on to
Sheffield and taken up more railway orientated hobbies.
J Houston
>
> Thanks James. Now that people have pointed out to me I do recall
> taking several photos of Anderston station. Including one of the sign
> saying the tunnel was 3533 metres long.
Yep - that section of the Glasgow Central Railway, now
known as the Argyle Line, is the only bit of the GCR still
in use, though, unbelievably, it was closed entirely from
1964 to 1979. Liked your pictures of the "other" part
of the station at Bridgeton Cross (and well done in getting
out of Bridgeton alive :) ). There has been talk of opening
a light rail network, and the intial plan was to use the old
tunnel between Kelvinbridge and the Botanic Gardens, which
would be reopened, as part of the network. But, it's just
been talk - no definite plans.
> I must say I loved Glasgow, it is a very beautiful and historic city.
> With all those nice tunnels to boot. Count yourself lucky to live in
> or have visited such a vibrant and happening city. I know some must
> think I'm stark raving bonkers to say such nice things about
> Glasgow, but trust me after travelling around the world and visiting
> many cities, Glasgow was definetly one of my favorites.
>
I remember expoloring Saint Rollox station in the mid-80's as a kid
- sadly it's been filled in since. I remember the Buchanan Street station
North tunnel portal being "landscaped" in the early 80's as well.
That's one tunnel you dont want to explore, by all accounts.
James H
Charlie Lipton
"Jim Mason" <jimthebai...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1852efbb6...@news.freeserve.net...
> >Loved your pictures of the Glasgow stations and tunnels, fascinating!
> >
> >The archive of the milk crate gang's site doesn't include the
> >pictures. I was wondering if you knew anywhere on the net where I
> >could find these?
>
> Hi Kev
>
> I have replied off list re this.
Jim, could you also supply myself with this info regarding the gang's
pictures. Ta very much.
Charlie.
Jim Mason
charles...@ntlworld.com says
I'll be in touch.
Jim
Panther650
>North tunnel portal being "landscaped" in the early 80's as well.
>That's one tunnel you dont want to explore, by all accounts.
Why?????
Steve Walker
> Http://urbanadventure.org and headfor the 2002 trip page.
The server is temporarily unable to service your request
due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit.
Please try again later.
Aaaargh!
Jim Mason
Panic
> >The highlights of the trip were finally reaching Glasgow to film and
> >photograph the abandoned Glasgow tunnels that I had seen so long ago
> >on the Milk Crate Gang's web site (Which I have a partial local copy
> >of but seek missing parts).
>
> I have a full copy, e-mail me off list to tell me what bits you need.
>
> Jim
Jim, I've had trouble emailing you, the address above does not seem to
resolve. I presume there's anti-spam stuff in the address? Anyway,
here's what I'm after:
Greetings Jim.
Thanks for your offer of sending me some of the old milk crate gang
site. I loved that site, it was a great inspiration to me. It was the
very first transit relation urban adventure site on the internet. The
first one about exploring abandoned stations. It has inspired the
design
and color scheme of two other urban adventure sites.
The bits I am missing are:
bg-01.htm Kelvinbridge - Botanic Gardens - Kirklee page; the image
below
the heading; Here is a final view of this amazing place.
bg-detail.htm - The right hand image from the toilet
lr-01.htm London Road page.Bridgeton - Parkhead all images
b-cent.htm Gallowgate and Bridgeton Central page; the 2 pictures of
Gallowgate station.
arg-01.htm The Argyle Line: Bridgeton to Partick page; The image
titled
'Central Low Level looking West'
kvm-01.htm The Kelvin Viaducts - Maryhill & Beyond; All pictures but
the
first and second last images
Crow Road, Kelvinside & Balgray page, all images
map-gcr.htm - the historic railway map.
oth-01.htm - all images
unioncity.htm - all images
I think that's it. I would be grateful for any of those images you
could
send me. It would bring back a lot of memories I think.
Kind Regards,
Jason Chapman.
Panic
month you can access it again.
Does anyone have a track map or other map that shows all these Glasgow
tunnels? I'd really love to take a peek at one. I've seen the Railscot
page? Or was that some other historical page? Hmm, can't recall even
though there's a link to it from my page. I heard rumor of another
track map.
Jim Mason
panic...@urbanadventure.org says
>Jim Mason <jimthebai...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.18526da1f...@news.freeserve.net>...
>> >The highlights of the trip were finally reaching Glasgow to film and
>> >photograph the abandoned Glasgow tunnels
>> Jim
>Jim, I've had trouble emailing you, the address above does not seem to
>resolve. I presume there's anti-spam stuff in the address? Anyway,
>here's what I'm after:
>
>The bits I am missing are:
>
>bg-01.htm Kelvinbridge -
detail snipped
>
>I think that's it. I would be grateful for any of those images you
>could
>send me. It would bring back a lot of memories I think.
>
>Kind Regards,
>Jason Chapman.
>
Have mailed you off list with details of where to find all you need. My
apologies for the lack of spamtrap details - simply remove `thebairns` and
you will get the genuine address.
Jim
--
Remove `thebairns` from email address to reply off-list.
Jim Mason
I don't know about a track map but I came across a fascinating Scottish
railway map from 1860 here
http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/map/early/scotland.cfm?id=823
Panther650
>tunnels? I'd really love to take a peek at one. I've seen the Railscot
>page? Or was that some other historical page? Hmm, can't recall even
>though there's a link to it from my page. I heard rumor of another
>track map.
>
>
>
>
>
>
I have a 1920/30ish map of Glasgow that shows all the lines in the city and
relates exactly to the Milk Crate Gangs page. Bit difficult to scan due to
size but if anyones interested e mail me off group and I'll see what i can do
with hard copies
standardblue
another slight correction -
http://www.urbanadventure.org/2002trip/scotland/dcp17709.jpg
The caption reads 'The second cutting passes beneath the railway from
Patrick Station to Charring Cross station at about Crescent Lane'
Looking at a map, I think you mean St Vincent Crescent Lane
Superb site btw! One of my friends explored the west end tunnels last
summer, and its something I've always wanted to do. Based on your accounts,
I think I've traced the complete route under the city, and hopefully I'll
find time next summer to go down there myself.
Say, you didn't happen to come across a neat pile of breezeblocks (concrete
bricks) when you were down there did you? or a computer printer? Thats what
my friend said he saw (but i have a feeling he took the printer with him!)
Another friend said that apparently there were shadows painted on the walls
too.
sb
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 19/11/2002
Alan J. Flavell
> Great pictures, particularly loved the ones of Glasgow Green and London
> Road ! Links duly added to http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/botanic/ :-)
If you don't mind me mentioning it, on your page
http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/botanic/sandfordst.html
the street in question was really "Sandyford Street" (not "Sandford"
as in your caption and URL); this doesn't seem to correspond to a
present-day Sandyford Street (there is a Sandyford Place, somewhat to
the East, and a Sandyford Street G3 8QJ some distance to the west),
but as it happens, I was walking past the Sandyford Hotel only
yesterday: it's on the corner of Kelvingrove St. and Sauchiehall St.
cheers
Jack & Megan
>ni...@leverton.org (Nick Leverton) wrote in message news:<as8svf$d92$2@w
>arren.leverton.org>...
>> Great pictures, particularly loved the ones of Glasgow Green and London
>> Road ! Links duly added to http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/botanic/ :-)
>>
>> Nick
>Thanks Nick! I love your pictures, the one with the lawn at Botanic
>Gardens is particuarly nice. Is that Angela at the station? Or Megan?
>
>And hey, look what I just found:
>http://web.archive.org/web/19981203023911/http://www.waverleyltd.co.uk/
>subway/mcg-001.htm
Hmm...
Now that is plain offensive. Archiving a graphical site without the
graphics...
How does one get stuff deleted from that site? In a previous case it
required multiple mails to an ISP and resorting to copyright to get the
broken copy taken down. :-( The owner of the site in question refused
to answer any mails from us on the subject.
The original material *will* eventually reappear on the Underworld,
indeed, I've already scanned a fascinating archive of C 1892 engineering
drawings of the route and it's features, which will be going public
hopefully before Midwinter, if I can find the time to add all the
captions and titles. I really need to build a CMS for the Underworld...
Original photos (and most of the original text) will appear when I find
and re-scan the prints - the original 1998 scans are way to small and
low-res to put back up as-is, plus the text needs a bit of tweaking.
Meanwhile, while out for a walk on Sunday, I did take loads of pictures
of the bridges and other structures where the GC chord from Tinsley Yard
crosses the Tinsley Locks, including the still lit folorn signal
guarding the demolished Meadowhall route, and the truly massive 1950s
steel plate bridge (complete with sawn-off electrification masts) which
spans one of the canal's inter-lock pools. This has to be one of the
largest plate-girders I've ever seen!
Also came across one of Railtrack's shiny new steel fences, erected
within the last 12 months I believe, with two of the vertical bars
neatly removed. So much for vandal-proof fencing. :-(
- J.
--
- Jack & Megan.
http://underworld.enchantress.org.uk http://www.railway.stormshadow.co.uk
http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk
Jack & Megan
>Does anyone have a track map or other map that shows all these Glasgow
>tunnels? I'd really love to take a peek at one. I've seen the Railscot
>page? Or was that some other historical page? Hmm, can't recall even
>though there's a link to it from my page. I heard rumor of another
>track map.
Ok, I see from this thread there is rather more interest in Sub Glasgow
than we realised - so here's a taster of what's coming:
I've activated the "Glasgow" section of The Underworld. All the
engineering drawings (over 100) are there, and the first couple of these
include a detailed map of the railways of Glasgow C 1892, with the
Glasgow Central route highlighted as a thicker black line. There are
two versions of this map, one at a much higher resolution than the
other.
It's all hosted on my own server, on Firstnet's high-capacity backbone
so there aren't any bandwidth limits.
Most of the images have no captions or text descriptions as yet,
hopefully I'll have these added by Midwinter, work permitting!
Note the text is all preliminary, and subject to change / errors /
inaccuracies.
All comments welcome!
Jack & Megan
>And speaking of the Milk Crate Gang, anyone know what happened to the
>members such as Megan and Angela? Last I heard they had moved on to
>Sheffield and taken up more railway orientated hobbies.
J: Aha. Yes, well Megan and Angela certainly landed on their feet -
they now live underground in three Mk1 coaches (BCK, FO and RK, for the
interested), in a long-forgotten tunnel somewhere under the Pennines,
and their main occupation in life is to periodically oil the bearings of
the locomotives and carriages of the Strategic Reserve, which are kept
in the same set of tunnels. In between this, they work together on
compiling a definitive map of all disused subterranean spaces, pausing
occasionally to kidnap cycling activists. This is of course all top
secret so no-one can read this paragraph... :-)
M: Seriously, darling, back in the real world.. <laugh> I am living in
Sheffield, my first loves are still Deltics and 37s, though since moving
down here I have developed a bit of a soft spot for (psst - don't tell
anyone) Pacers! And Jack and I are still happily together... when we're
not arguing over websites that is!
J: Unfortunately we've not met up with any of the other MCG members for
a while, last year's planned joint trip to Monsal Head we had to pull
out of at short notice due to a death in the family. Two of us still
live in Glasgow AFAIK, while one is in Nottingham and one in the wilds
of North Wales.
M: PS: I am however looking for a job at the moment... So if anyone
knows of a Deltic that needs a keeper for her top-coach window to save
her from all those nasty terrible bashers while on tour, my phone number
is... <hopeful look>
Jack & Megan
>While visiting the UK in September this year (2002) I managed to
>explore quite a few tunnels and meet some very nice underground
>explorers.
>
>The highlights of the trip were finally reaching Glasgow to film and
>photograph the abandoned Glasgow tunnels that I had seen so long ago
>on the Milk Crate Gang's web site (Which I have a partial local copy
>of but seek missing parts). The Botanic Gardens station was
>particuarly beautiful, as was London Road.
>
>Also I loved the Williamson's tunnels and Cane Hill bunker. There's
>more info on the web site:
>
>Http://urbanadventure.org and headfor the 2002 trip page.
Interesting pictures!
Btw, the place you refer to as "London Road Station" is just another
part of Bridgeton Cross Station. The tiled stairway and gates are the
entrance to an old public loo, not another station - it's plain tunnel
beneath London Road at that point.
I see the trees in Botanic Gardens have grown up a lot in the last 5
years - that seems to be the case all over the place, where routes were
abandoned for the first 20 or 30 years shrub growth was fairly slow, but
in recent years they've leapt up - the Princes Pier line in Greenock now
(well, earlier this year) resembles an Indiana Jones style jungle, only
the fact that some of the locals use it as a short cut has kept any
parts passable. Only a few years ago it was still mostly clear, indeed
in the mid 80s trains were still running on it.
- J.
J Houston
>
> Does anyone have a track map or other map that shows all these Glasgow
> tunnels? I'd really love to take a peek at one. I've seen the Railscot
> page? Or was that some other historical page? Hmm, can't recall even
> though there's a link to it from my page. I heard rumor of another
> track map.
I've got an Ordnance Survey map from 1971, but the Glasgow
Central line was lifted and the map reflects this.
I do however have a Streepmap from about 1969-70 which
is full of errors, and shows the GC line still in place! It also
shows Buchanan Street station closed and demolished, but
Saint Rollox still open!
James H
J Houston
"Jack & Megan" <night...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VXdLf+Lml$69E...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk...
> engineering drawings (over 100) are there, and the first couple of these
> include a detailed map of the railways of Glasgow C 1892, with the
> Glasgow Central route highlighted as a thicker black line. There are
> two versions of this map, one at a much higher resolution than the
> other.
>
> It's all hosted on my own server, on Firstnet's high-capacity backbone
> so there aren't any bandwidth limits.
>
> Most of the images have no captions or text descriptions as yet,
> hopefully I'll have these added by Midwinter, work permitting!
>
> Note the text is all preliminary, and subject to change / errors /
> inaccuracies.
>
> All comments welcome!
>
> - J.
http://underworld.enchantress.org.uk/cgi-bin/mcg.cgi?this_station=%2Fhome%2F
jack%2Fwww%2Funderworld%2Fdata%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering&thisloc=&thispath=%3A
%3ASUB%3A%3A%2Fdata&image=%2Fimages%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering%2Ffig-174-178-ke
lvin-viaduct-dawsholm.jpg
Jack - Brilliant pictures. Any more engineering drawings of Glasgow Railways
such as Saint Enochs of Central??
J Houston
"Jack & Megan" <night...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VXdLf+Lml$69E...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk...
>
> engineering drawings (over 100) are there, and the first couple of these
> include a detailed map of the railways of Glasgow C 1892, with the
> Glasgow Central route highlighted as a thicker black line. There are
> two versions of this map, one at a much higher resolution than the
> other.
>
Jack - Brilliant pictures. Any more engineering drawings of Glasgow Railways
such as Saint Enochs of Central??
As for the image of the viaduct below - where was this exactly and what line
was on
this Kelvin Viaduct? I may have a go at building this for the train sim
Trainz, thanks to your drawings. :)
http://underworld.enchantress.org.uk/cgi-bin/mcg.cgi?this_station=%2Fhome%2F
jack%2Fwww%2Funderworld%2Fdata%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering&thisloc=&thispath=%3A
%3ASUB%3A%3A%2Fdata&image=%2Fimages%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering%2Ffig-174-178-ke
lvin-viaduct-dawsholm.jpg
--------------------------------------
http://www.glasgowtrainz.fsnet.co.uk/
--------------------------------------
James H
Jack Howard
<ja...@houston73.SPAMOFF.co.uk> writes
>"Jack & Megan" <night...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:VXdLf+Lml$69E...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk...
>> I've activated the "Glasgow" section of The Underworld. All the
>> engineering drawings (over 100) are there, and the first couple of these
>> include a detailed map of the railways of Glasgow C 1892, with the
>> Glasgow Central route highlighted as a thicker black line. There are
>> two versions of this map, one at a much higher resolution than the
>> other.
>Jack - Brilliant pictures.
Thanks! Not all my work, though - the real credit has to go to the
Victorian draughtsmen who created them, and the MCG researcher who
discovered and copied them for us. I just built the Underworld software
to display them.
>Any more engineering drawings of Glasgow Railways
>such as Saint Enochs of Central??
'Fraid not. What's up is all I have. At some point I might type in the
accompanying text, on the other hand I may just paraphrase it into the
captions.
>As for the image of the viaduct below - where was this exactly and what line
>was on
>this Kelvin Viaduct?
Right. To really understand this you need a good knowledge of the West
End, plus an understanding of the original system. Look at the high-res
version of the 1892 map for starters. See how there were 2 branches at
the western end, one to Maryhill, and one to Dawsholm? The viaduct
carried the line from Kirklee (identified as Kelvinside on the map)
towards Dawsholm.
In fact, when the system was finished things were slightly different, as
the Lanarkshire & Dumbarton line came north from Crow Road and Hyndland,
burrowing beneath Great Western Road, then (in tunnel) curving east to
emerge just south of the east end of the viaduct. This line merged with
the CG one, then branched left (north) again, to form a triangle with
the GC Maryhill branch. From Maryhill this line then ran on to Possil
and round the north of Glasgow, crossing the NB at Eastfield on a long
plate girder viaduct (which I'd love some pictures of - official
vandalism destroyed it in the 80s) and then running south, down to
Parkhead and rejoining the CG at Rutherglen (just before the Clyde
Viaduct IIRC).
>I may have a go at building this for the train sim
>Trainz, thanks to your drawings. :)
Now that'd be worth seeing!
<http://underworld.enchantress.org.uk/cgi-bin/mcg.cgi?this_station=%2Fhom
e%2Fjack%2Fwww%2Funderworld%2Fdata%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering&thisloc=&thisp
ath=%3A%3ASUB%3A%3A%2Fdata&image=%2Fimages%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering%2Ffig-
174-178-kelvin-viaduct-dawsholm.jpg>
One other thing I need - a "shorthand link generator" :) Wrapping these
in < and > should make more modern newsreaders render them as single
URLs instead of requiring 4 lines of cut-n-paste, though.
--
- Jack Howard, Systems Development Engineer, Firstnet Services Limited
===[ http://www.firstnet.net.uk <--- Total Internet Solutions ]===
===[ This message subject to http://www.firstnet.net.uk/disclaimer.html ]===
Nick Pedley
"Jack Howard" <jho...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vAr1+Zpm...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk...
> In message <asikst$lnl$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, J Houston
> <ja...@houston73.SPAMOFF.co.uk> writes
>
>
> <http://underworld.enchantress.org.uk/cgi-bin/mcg.cgi?this_station=%2Fhom
> e%2Fjack%2Fwww%2Funderworld%2Fdata%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering&thisloc=&thisp
> ath=%3A%3ASUB%3A%3A%2Fdata&image=%2Fimages%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering%2Ffig-
> 174-178-kelvin-viaduct-dawsholm.jpg>
>
> One other thing I need - a "shorthand link generator" :) Wrapping these
> in < and > should make more modern newsreaders render them as single
> URLs instead of requiring 4 lines of cut-n-paste, though.
>
properly...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J173515A2
And, wow, that must have been a pretty sight in its day.
Nick
Nick Leverton
<panth...@aol.com> wrote: >>I remember the Buchanan Street station
>>North tunnel portal being "landscaped" in the early 80's as well.
>>That's one tunnel you dont want to explore, by all accounts. >
>Why?????
My books are in storage at the moment, but IIRC there were chemical works,
or possibly an old Town Gasworks, above it, and the site is likely
to be saturated with carcinogenic chemicals from the dumped waste.
The tunnel was always notorious for being very wet, and was partially
flooded when one of the MCG investigated the entrance, so the chemicals
will probably have leached into the water, and it's not a good idea to
go into it if you value your future health.
Nick
Nick Leverton
Jack Howard <jho...@firstnet.net.uk> wrote:
>One other thing I need - a "shorthand link generator" :) Wrapping these
>in < and > should make more modern newsreaders render them as single
>URLs instead of requiring 4 lines of cut-n-paste, though.
What, you mean like:
Using 1980s-vintage trn - as far as I know, it's only Microsoft Outhouse
which gratuitously breaks long links so that they're unusable.
Nick
Jim Mason
I hate to tell you this is not the case. Gravity - respected newsreader
software does exactly the same.
As does probably most software on other platforms - which makes the use of
`make a shorter link` type sites even more mannerly.
Neill Wood
find a couple of Inkubus Sukkubus loving pagans. Come to think of it
I've seen them a few times in Camden Underworld, which is at least
underground.
Blessed be
Neill Wood
Jack & Megan <night...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<R9eqlOZv...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk>...
Nick Leverton
Jack & Megan <night...@stormshadow.co.uk> wrote:
>Once upon a time, Panic <panic...@urbanadventure.org> spake thus:
>
>>http://web.archive.org/web/19981203023911/http://www.waverleyltd.co.uk/
>>subway/mcg-001.htm
>
>graphics...
>
>How does one get stuff deleted from that site? In a previous case it
>required multiple mails to an ISP and resorting to copyright to get the
>broken copy taken down. :-(
The Wayback Machine has been archiving the wibble for years. It went
through a lean spell around 1998 when the WWW was growing faster than
their funding and they couldn't save images, but I approve of their
mission to create a library of the WWW. You can contact them, if you
really object to your original publication being in a library, and get
pages removed, or you can use robots.txt to keep their spider out in the
first place. But should electronic knowledge be allowed to just vanish ?
(question)
Nick
Jack & Megan
>This is wildly off-topic, but this is the last place I expected to
>find a couple of Inkubus Sukkubus loving pagans. Come to think of it
>I've seen them a few times in Camden Underworld, which is at least
>underground.
M: Why darling of course it's on-topic... didn't we have our Peak-a-choo
with us at the Resurrection gig...? <innocent look>
M: And who knows, perhaps some day, if we supply the cider, a certain
siren-voiced fallen angel with long dark hair and even longer legs might
just come a-walking with us...
M: Finally, next time you see us, come on over and say Hi! I promise
not to bite (at least not before midnight).. <gryn>
- Megan (aka Midnight).
Jack & Megan
>The Wayback Machine has been archiving the wibble for years. It went
>through a lean spell around 1998 when the WWW was growing faster than
>their funding and they couldn't save images, but I approve of their
>mission to create a library of the WWW. You can contact them, if you
>really object to your original publication being in a library, and get
>pages removed, or you can use robots.txt to keep their spider out in the
>first place. But should electronic knowledge be allowed to just vanish ?
>(question)
Oh, I'm all in favour of archives, but they should reflect a complete
work. When I read "Glasgow Stations" in the Mitchell Library, I get the
whole book, not some hacked and slashed version of it.
Sub Glasgow was a graphic site, intended to be seen on the graphical
browsers of the day - to archive the text without the images is, IMO,
akin to archiving a Shakespeare play without the final act.
I didn't realise that was the Wayback Machine site - IIRC they have (or
had) a very useful set of "old browser simulators" which let you see
sites as IE 3, or NN 2 would have seen them. How far we have come! :)
J Houston
"Jack Howard" <jho...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vAr1+Zpm...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk...
>
> End, plus an understanding of the original system. Look at the high-res
> version of the 1892 map for starters. See how there were 2 branches at
> the western end, one to Maryhill, and one to Dawsholm? The viaduct
> carried the line from Kirklee (identified as Kelvinside on the map)
> towards Dawsholm.
>
> In fact, when the system was finished things were slightly different, as
> the Lanarkshire & Dumbarton line came north from Crow Road and Hyndland,
> burrowing beneath Great Western Road, then (in tunnel) curving east to
> emerge just south of the east end of the viaduct. This line merged with
> the CG one, then branched left (north) again, to form a triangle with
> the GC Maryhill branch.
Jack - here's a scan of my old street map. It show closed
stations such as Crow Road, Hyndland, Maryhill Central,
Kelvinbridge and Partickhill, as well as the now uplifted
Anniesland/Maryhill chord.
Warning - large image (143Kb)
http://www.glasgowtrainz.fsnet.co.uk/kelvin01.jpg
So the viaduct was on the western side of the
triangle north of Kirklee? I know the bridges that
meet heading into Maryhill Central are still there as
I've cycled past them many times.
> From Maryhill this line then ran on to Possil
> and round the north of Glasgow, crossing the NB at Eastfield on a long
> plate girder viaduct (which I'd love some pictures of - official
> vandalism destroyed it in the 80s) and then running south, down to
> Parkhead and rejoining the CG at Rutherglen (just before the Clyde
> Viaduct IIRC).
The plate girder viaduct at Eastfield - I walked across that
several times as a boy prior to its removal. The amount of
ballast left behind on the bridge itself was unbelievable - an
open invitation for neds to lob large stones at the passing
trains below.
As for the section towards Parkhead - almost all is
gone, including an amazingly high embankment and
bridge at Duke street above the Queen Street to
Airdrie line and a brick viaduct section at Janefield Street.
The section past the Provan Gasworks and Blackhill
is now the Stepps Bypass.
-------------------------------------
http://www.glasgowtrainz.fsnet.co.uk/
-------------------------------------
James H
Jack Howard
<ja...@houston73.SPAMOFF.co.uk> writes
>"Jack Howard" <jho...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:vAr1+Zpm...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk...
>Jack - here's a scan of my old street map. It show closed
>stations such as Crow Road, Hyndland, Maryhill Central,
>Kelvinbridge and Partickhill, as well as the now uplifted
>Anniesland/Maryhill chord.
>
>Warning - large image (143Kb)
>http://www.glasgowtrainz.fsnet.co.uk/kelvin01.jpg
Thanks! File size not really an issue here at work.. :-)
>So the viaduct was on the western side of the
>triangle north of Kirklee?
Not on the triangle, rather it was just west of where the line down to
Hyndland branches south. See how the Dawsholm line crosses the Kelvin
at an acute angle to the river? That was the viaduct. Quite a
spectacular feature for a line with just half a mile further to go!
>I know the bridges that
>meet heading into Maryhill Central are still there as
>I've cycled past them many times.
When all this was being discussed here back in 97/98, someone commented
it used to be possible, before the new housing was built, to walk all
the way along the old route to the missing viaduct, high above the
Kelvin. It really is a pity these routes weren't retained for future
light-rail use.
>The plate girder viaduct at Eastfield - I walked across that
>several times as a boy prior to its removal.
Sounds like fun! I don't suppose you had a camera back then - I just
wish I'd taken more pictures with mine!
>The amount of
>ballast left behind on the bridge itself was unbelievable - an
>open invitation for neds to lob large stones at the passing
>trains below.
Probably partly why it was removed (plus the scrap value).
>As for the section towards Parkhead - almost all is
>gone, including an amazingly high embankment and
>bridge at Duke street above the Queen Street to
>Airdrie line and a brick viaduct section at Janefield Street.
>The section past the Provan Gasworks and Blackhill
>is now the Stepps Bypass.
When I worked at The Forge shopping mall, back in the early 90s (1990,
to be exact), there were still traces of this, though nothing
substantial - it looked as if there used to be something much higher
crossing the Airdrie route at almost right angles just east of the
(still impressive) bridges that Duke Street passes beneath.
Is there anything left to see of that line in the Haghill area north of
Parkhead?
J Houston
> In message <aslfdp$gin$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, J Houston
> <ja...@houston73.SPAMOFF.co.uk> writes
>
>
> Hyndland branches south. See how the Dawsholm line crosses the Kelvin
> at an acute angle to the river? That was the viaduct. Quite a
> spectacular feature for a line with just half a mile further to go!
>
I think I'm with you now. It crossed Kelvindale Road? There's
a few abutments left of this structure, but sadly, thats all. When
was it removed btw?
> When all this was being discussed here back in 97/98, someone commented
> it used to be possible, before the new housing was built, to walk all
> the way along the old route to the missing viaduct, high above the
> Kelvin. It really is a pity these routes weren't retained for future
> light-rail use.
Indeed. As Billy Connolly says "who are these bastards?"
> >The plate girder viaduct at Eastfield - I walked across that
> >several times as a boy prior to its removal.
>
> Sounds like fun! I don't suppose you had a camera back then - I just
> wish I'd taken more pictures with mine!
No, sorry - I didnt have a camera :)
> Probably partly why it was removed (plus the scrap value).
I've often thought that - it was never fenced off properly. Though
it did make a great shortcut from Parkhouse to Colston.
> When I worked at The Forge shopping mall, back in the early 90s (1990,
> to be exact), there were still traces of this, though nothing
> substantial - it looked as if there used to be something much higher
> crossing the Airdrie route at almost right angles just east of the
> (still impressive) bridges that Duke Street passes beneath.
Thats the one - it was removed late 80's or early 90's. Those
bridges - theres 2 of them but only one is used. Surprised
the other hasnt been removed. That area is a right traffic
bottleneck.
> Is there anything left to see of that line in the Haghill area north of
> Parkhead?
>
It's behind housing in Ledaig Street, but I wouldn't want to
hang around that particular area.:) At Edinburgh Road and
North of Cumbernauld Road, parallel to Provan Road, it's
down in an embankment. Intact but seriously overgrown.
Theres a neat little iron bridge at Gadie Street which is
out of use to traffic - this gives you a good view of
whats left.
The Alexandra Parade to Cartyne chord also cut through
Haghill, and I remember Class 20's noisely hauling freight
along it. It was double track, but is now partially filled in
alongside Appin Road. It cut across Cartyne Road at
Todd Street directly under another bridge which carried
the Possil to Rutherglen line high above.
Alan J. Flavell
> >I know the bridges that
> >meet heading into Maryhill Central are still there as
> >I've cycled past them many times.
>
> When all this was being discussed here back in 97/98, someone commented
> it used to be possible, before the new housing was built, to walk all
> the way along the old route to the missing viaduct, high above the
> Kelvin.
I can definitely confirm that - I walked it several times. Pity I
wasn't taking pictures back then, and my memory for dates is a bit
vague. However, the viaduct looked unsafe and was firmly walled
off[1], whereas the branch that went off to the left was still
walkable, and I recall a somewhat forlorn notice prohibiting
trespassing on the property of the railways board (or words to that
effect) before the track bed disappeared into an open tunnel-mouth[2].
I only later learned that this was the one that came out under G.W.Rd
near Gartnavel hospital.
[1] At that time, the bridge over Kelvindale Road was still intact.
The paper works (or remains of it) were still on their site on the
other side of Kelvindale Road.
[2] I don't think that tunnel mouth is accessible nowadays? - more new
housing...
By the way, James' streetmap shows the rail line ending at the canal,
but I reckon from the traces on the ground that it used to go under
the canal, then under Bantaskin St and, where the walkway now turns
sharp right along the side of the river, there was some kind of
abutment on the opposite side of the river indicating that there would
at one time have been a rail bridge there, no? Probably onto the
gasworks shown on that site on old maps. That site is now occupied by
the realigned Skaethorn Rd, and new housing between there and the
W.Highland line.
Panther650
>but I reckon from the traces on the ground that it used to go under
>the canal, then under Bantaskin St and, where the walkway now turns
>sharp right along the side of the river, there was some kind of
>abutment on the opposite side of the river indicating that there would
>at one time have been a rail bridge there, no? Probably onto the
>gasworks shown on that site on old maps. That site is now occupied by
>the realigned Skaethorn Rd, and new housing between there and the
>W.Highland line.
>
>
>
There is a siding spur coming off that line adjacent to Balcarres Ave, crossing
the river and stopping at the canal. Another siding doubles back off these and
recrosses the river to end up in the old paper works. At the point where the
line stopped the canal is a good forty feet above the river and no trace now
exists on the ground although the north eastern arch of the viaduct could well
have been intended for a continuation of the track No date on my map but I
guess it to be about 1925 ish.
Jack Howard
<Pine.LNX.4.44.021204...@ppepc65.ph.gla.ac.uk>, Alan J.
Flavell <fla...@ph.gla.ac.uk> writes
>On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Jack Howard wrote:
>> When all this was being discussed here back in 97/98, someone commented
>> it used to be possible, before the new housing was built, to walk all
>> the way along the old route to the missing viaduct, high above the
>> Kelvin.
>I can definitely confirm that - I walked it several times.
Aha - I thought it was either you or DM, but memory is hazy. Thanks for
confirming!
>Pity I
>wasn't taking pictures back then, and my memory for dates is a bit
>vague. However, the viaduct looked unsafe and was firmly walled
>off[1],
Unsafe to walk, or structurally?
Does anyone have any pictures of it from that period, or during
demolition? When exactly was it removed?
>whereas the branch that went off to the left was still
>walkable, and I recall a somewhat forlorn notice prohibiting
>trespassing on the property of the railways board (or words to that
>effect) before the track bed disappeared into an open tunnel-mouth[2].
>I only later learned that this was the one that came out under G.W.Rd
>near Gartnavel hospital.
>
>[1] At that time, the bridge over Kelvindale Road was still intact.
>The paper works (or remains of it) were still on their site on the
>other side of Kelvindale Road.
Were the two single track viaducts over the Kelvin, one of the paper
works and one to the single line gasworks tunnel, still in place back
then?
>[2] I don't think that tunnel mouth is accessible nowadays? - more new
>housing...
It's still there, fenced off. IIRC the other end is now flooded.
>By the way, James' streetmap shows the rail line ending at the canal,
>but I reckon from the traces on the ground that it used to go under
>the canal, then under Bantaskin St and, where the walkway now turns
>sharp right along the side of the river, there was some kind of
>abutment on the opposite side of the river indicating that there would
>at one time have been a rail bridge there, no?
Yes - I'd forgotten that, but when the MCG got there, there was IIRC a
pier in the middle of the stream and an abutment on the far side, so it
would appear the line continued at least a little further. There was no
foot crossing available and it was getting late, though, so no further
explorations up there were ever done - we did the gasworks tunnel
instead.
>Probably onto the
>gasworks shown on that site on old maps.
Supplying gasworks with coal was evidently a very major traffic flow for
19thC railway companies - on the Glasgow Central route alone there were
3 or 4 of them (one at Dalmarnock and the others at Dawsholm).
Interestingly the bridge across Dalmarnock Station, built to carry a
street-level branch into the adjacent gasworks, and prominently shown on
the drawings, is still in situ, though gated off at both ends - it forms
an integral part of the station structure.
What's also notable at Dalmarnock is that behind the 70s red brick
walls, the original Victorian white glazed brick is still in place. A
relatively quick and cheap "upgrade" to this station would be to remove
all the 70s work and restore the original walling - this would also make
the station an order of magnitude brighter.
It's probably a good thing the CG was reopened in 79, though - the cost
of making the stations wheelchair-accessible would probably have made it
financially impossible if it were to be tried now!
> That site is now occupied by
>the realigned Skaethorn Rd, and new housing between there and the
>W.Highland line.
Another opportunity lost. :-(
Jack Howard
<ja...@houston73.SPAMOFF.co.uk> writes
>"Jack Howard" <jho...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:tNGltyxQ...@blackhole.firstnet.co.uk...
>> In message <aslfdp$gin$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, J Houston
>> <ja...@houston73.SPAMOFF.co.uk> writes
>> Not on the triangle, rather it was just west of where the line down to
>> Hyndland branches south. See how the Dawsholm line crosses the Kelvin
>> at an acute angle to the river? That was the viaduct. Quite a
>> spectacular feature for a line with just half a mile further to go!
>I think I'm with you now. It crossed Kelvindale Road?
That's the one.
>There's
>a few abutments left of this structure, but sadly, thats all.
Last time I was there the remains were the masonry approach viaduct on
the south bank, the central pier, and the masonry viaduct between the
missing girder viaduct and the missing road bridge, plus the abutment on
the other side of the road bridge.
>When
>was it removed btw?
I don't know - see my reply to Alan.
>> When all this was being discussed here back in 97/98, someone commented
>> it used to be possible, before the new housing was built, to walk all
>> the way along the old route to the missing viaduct, high above the
>> Kelvin. It really is a pity these routes weren't retained for future
>> light-rail use.
>Indeed. As Billy Connolly says "who are these bastards?"
Indeed.
>> >The plate girder viaduct at Eastfield - I walked across that
>> >several times as a boy prior to its removal.
>>
>> Sounds like fun! I don't suppose you had a camera back then - I just
>> wish I'd taken more pictures with mine!
>No, sorry - I didnt have a camera :)
As m'Lady would say, "the sights you see when you don't have a camera!".
:-)
>> When I worked at The Forge shopping mall, back in the early 90s (1990,
>> to be exact), there were still traces of this, though nothing
>> substantial - it looked as if there used to be something much higher
>> crossing the Airdrie route at almost right angles just east of the
>> (still impressive) bridges that Duke Street passes beneath.
>Thats the one - it was removed late 80's or early 90's. Those
>bridges - theres 2 of them but only one is used. Surprised
>the other hasnt been removed. That area is a right traffic
>bottleneck.
IIRC it's the larger, fancier high-girder one that's disused? I don't
suppose removing it would make much difference to the traffic, as the
other would need to remain anyway. I really should get up there and
take some pictures on my next visit to Glasgow.
>> Is there anything left to see of that line in the Haghill area north of
>> Parkhead?
>It's behind housing in Ledaig Street, but I wouldn't want to
>hang around that particular area.:)
<gryn>
>At Edinburgh Road and
>North of Cumbernauld Road, parallel to Provan Road, it's
>down in an embankment. Intact but seriously overgrown.
>Theres a neat little iron bridge at Gadie Street which is
>out of use to traffic - this gives you a good view of
>whats left.
Thanks! I'll take a wander out there next time I get a chance.
>The Alexandra Parade to Cartyne chord also cut through
>Haghill, and I remember Class 20's noisely hauling freight
>along it. It was double track, but is now partially filled in
>alongside Appin Road. It cut across Cartyne Road at
>Todd Street directly under another bridge which carried
>the Possil to Rutherglen line high above.
Now that's another feature that would be worth seeing old photos of.
Alan J. Flavell
> >vague. However, the viaduct looked unsafe and was firmly walled
> >off[1],
>
> Unsafe to walk, or structurally?
To walk, I meant.
> Were the two single track viaducts over the Kelvin, one of the paper
> works and one to the single line gasworks tunnel, still in place back
> then?
I don't believe so, I think only the pillars were left, when I first
made an acquaintance with the area (I came to Glasgow in the latter
half of the 1970's, but I honestly can't recall when I first explored
out there).
Graeme Wall
Jim Mason <jimthebai...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
Works fine in Messenger :-)
--
Graeme Wall
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Paul Robertson
> J Houston writes
> >> (still impressive) bridges that Duke Street passes beneath.
>
> >Thats the one - it was removed late 80's or early 90's. Those
> >bridges - theres 2 of them but only one is used. Surprised
> >the other hasnt been removed. That area is a right traffic
> >bottleneck.
>
> IIRC it's the larger, fancier high-girder one that's disused?
> I don't suppose removing it would make much difference to the
> traffic, as the other would need to remain anyway. I really
> should get up there and take some pictures on my next visit
> to Glasgow.
I'm trying to think of which one you mean - there's the bridge
carrying the Airdrie line over Duke Street just at its junction
with the Parkhead Bypass, but I can't think of another one - if
you mean the bridge that carried the old L&D line over the
Airdrie one, that's long gone, but you can see from the OHLE
masts on the Airdrie line where it used to go under the L&D.
> >At Edinburgh Road and North of Cumbernauld Road, parallel
> >to Provan Road, it's down in an embankment. Intact but
> >seriously overgrown. Theres a neat little iron bridge at
> >Gadie Street which is out of use to traffic - this gives
> >you a good view of whats left.
>
> Thanks! I'll take a wander out there next time I get a chance.
Further north/west, the cutting east of Possil station is
also intact with the bridges at Ashfield Street (iron) and
Chapelton Street (black brick, and still impressive) in place.
--
Paul Robertson
Glasgow
class...@zzzbtopenworld.com (Remove the obviouzzz to respond)
J Houston
"Paul Robertson" <class...@zzzbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:3DEFB347...@zzzbtopenworld.com...
>
> I'm trying to think of which one you mean - there's the bridge
> carrying the Airdrie line over Duke Street just at its junction
> with the Parkhead Bypass, but I can't think of another one - if
> you mean the bridge that carried the old L&D line over the
> Airdrie one, that's long gone, but you can see from the OHLE
> masts on the Airdrie line where it used to go under the L&D.
>
That's the ones we're on about :)
There's actually 2 bridges at that location - they're side by side.
One carries the Airdrie line, the other has no track on it.
J Houston
>
> IIRC it's the larger, fancier high-girder one that's disused? I don't
> suppose removing it would make much difference to the traffic, as the
> other would need to remain anyway. I really should get up there and
> take some pictures on my next visit to Glasgow.
>
Correct - the less-impressive of the 2 bridges
carries the Airdrie line across Duke Street.
Nick Leverton
Alan J. Flavell <fla...@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>If you don't mind me mentioning it, on your page
>
>http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/botanic/sandfordst.html
>
>the street in question was really "Sandyford Street" (not "Sandford"
>as in your caption and URL); this doesn't seem to correspond to a
>present-day Sandyford Street (there is a Sandyford Place, somewhat to
>the East, and a Sandyford Street G3 8QJ some distance to the west),
>but as it happens, I was walking past the Sandyford Hotel only
>yesterday: it's on the corner of Kelvingrove St. and Sauchiehall St.
Thanks for the information, I've corrected the page and added a note !
Nick
Alan Scott
A suggestion is that it's a direction (west) rather than the name of the
street
directly above. Stobcross Station was on Stobcross Street which at that
time ran alongside the Queen's Dock on the north bank of the river Clyde, to
both east and west of Stobcross Station. Sandyford Street was located
along
Stobcross Street to the west, and a useful landmark in the Kelvinhaugh area
with a large school, various businesses and a link running north from the
docks area towards Argyle Street and Dumbarton Road. So the sign may
indicate the direction towards Sandyford Street (ie west) rather than show
that Sandyford Street is directly overhead.
With the building of the Clydeside Expressway and the filling in of Queen's
Dock for the SECC, Stobcross Street was cut by the Expressway, and
disappeared into the access roads for car parks around the SECC, though the
name still appears on signs. The 1892 map at (long URL)
http://underworld.enchantress.org.uk/cgi-bin/mcg.cgi?this_station=%2Fhome%2F
jack%2Fwww%2Funderworld%2Fdata%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering&thisloc=&thispath=%3A
%3ASUB%3A%3A%2Fdata&image=%2Fimages%2Fglasgow%2Fengineering%2Ffig-001-high-r
es.jpg
shows Stobcross Street (unnamed) running along from Stobcross Station to the
foot of Kelvinhaugh Street where Sandyford Street (not shown) joins it from
the north.
Sandyford is a district name at the west end of Sauchiehall
Street, couldn't find a derivation but as AJF says, there's a Sandyford
Hotel and Sandyford Place as well as Sandyford Street, all some distance
apart. The Bank of Scotland used to have a Sandyford branch (maybe closed
now), also some way away, and some distance from both rivers, Clyde or
Kelvin. There may have been a much earlier ford on the Kelvin, around
where Kelvingrove Park and the 1901 Exhibition site (Kelvingrove Galleries
etc)
http://www.information-on-scotland.co.uk/attractions/att_glasgow.html
describes an 8-acre site at Sandyford in 1817 for the first botanic garden.
>Glasgow Botanic Gardens...
>The Gardens date back to 1817 when the work of laying out
>a botanic garden was begun on an eight-acre site at Sandyford
>on the West End of Sauchiehall Street. At this time the gardens
>were run by the Royal Botanic Institution of Glasgow...
>founded on the initiative of Thomas Hopkirk
To confuse things, though, the program for the 1901 Exhibition at
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/oct1999.html clearly shows
a Sandyford Street running from Dumbarton Road past Gray Street etc on what
is now the line of west Sauchiehall Street, though again some distance from
the Glasgow Central Railway's track. Today's Sandyford Street may have
been
extended into the Exhibition site, still well to the west of the Central
Railway.
Hope this helps...
Alan
alan.scott at dial.pipex.com
Alan J. Flavell
> Why was it important to know you were "under" Sandyford Street?
This was not the only location at which the Milk Crate Gang found the
name of the street above, signposted in the tunnels. Bank St was
another, if I remember the web site?
I've done a bit more homework now...
> A suggestion is that it's a direction (west) rather than the name of
> the street directly above.
A fair enough suggestion, but let's see. Unfortunately, the old-maps
web site doesn't seem to allow me to just give you a plain URL, so
bear with me:
* go to http://www.old-maps.co.uk/
* feed the co-ordinates 257083,665929 (or thereabouts) into the
search field, pick the "Co-ordinate" radio button and click "search".
* you'll get a menu, on which only the entry for
Lanarkshire is useful. Click on it.
* when the thumbnail map appears, click in the zoom button number 1.
You will now see that on this map (from 1865), "Sandyford Street" was
the name of what is now called part of Sauchiehall Street, between its
junction with Kelvingrove St. and its end (as it then was) located
somewhere near where the Kelvingrove museum now stands, i.e just
before the present-day Sauchiehall Street joins Argyle St/Dumbarton
Rd.
Thus, today's Sandyford Hotel marks the eastern end of what was
Sandyford Street.
I don't see any reason to doubt that this was the street mentioned
at that point in the tunnel.
However, if you move westwards to the district of Kelvinhaugh, at the
end of Kelvinhaugh St there appears a short street running nearly
north-south which today is still called Sandyford St. On the old
map it's hard to make out: the name _looks_ to me to be
"SANDYFORD N T", but I suppose it was really "SANDYFORD ST"
> Stobcross Station was on Stobcross Street which at that time ran
> alongside the Queen's Dock on the north bank of the river Clyde, to
> both east and west of Stobcross Station.
All of that post-dates the 1865 map, on which the western end of
Stobcross St. appears to be at Stobcross Ho ("House", presumably).
> Sandyford Street was
> located along Stobcross Street to the west,
Yes, that's the Kelvinhaugh one, whose existence I had mentioned in
the earlier posting. But it's not the one that's relevant to the Milk
Crate tunnel.
> Sandyford is a district name at the west end of Sauchiehall
> Street,
As it happens, I haven't seen the name used as the name of a district
there on any of these maps. But your quote below seems to bear out
what you say.
> couldn't find a derivation but as AJF says, there's a Sandyford
> Hotel and Sandyford Place as well as Sandyford Street, all some distance
> apart.
Well, we now see that the relevant Sandyford Street, the Sandyford
Hotel, and today's Sandyford Place (didn't exist on the 1865 map) are
all within a stone's throw of each other. But the Kelvinhaugh
Sandyford St is something else.
> http://www.information-on-scotland.co.uk/attractions/att_glasgow.html
> describes an 8-acre site at Sandyford in 1817 for the first botanic garden.
Yes, right:
> >Glasgow Botanic Gardens...
> >The Gardens date back to 1817 when the work of laying out
> >a botanic garden was begun on an eight-acre site at Sandyford
> >on the West End of Sauchiehall Street.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...and the west end of Sauchiehall Street at that time would, it
seems, have been at Kelvingrove street, so that brings us again to our
now-renamed "Sandyford Street" - _not_ the Kelvinhaugh one.
> To confuse things, though,
On the contrary, your exhibit helps it all fall into place ;-)
> the program for the 1901 Exhibition at
> http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/oct1999.html clearly shows
> a Sandyford Street running from Dumbarton Road past Gray Street etc on what
> is now the line of west Sauchiehall Street,
Bingo!
> though again some distance from the Glasgow Central Railway's track.
Where do you suppose the line of the tunnel goes, then? If we project
from the point where we know it goes under Gibson St, to the point
where we know it goes under St Vincent Cres, we're surely quite close
to Kelvingrove Street in between? i.e the eastern end of "our"
Sandyford St as it then was.
all the best
Joyce Whitchurch
>
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, it was written:
>
> > Why was it important to know you were "under" Sandyford Street?
>
>
> > A suggestion is that it's a direction (west) rather than the name of
> > the street directly above.
>
> A fair enough suggestion, but let's see. Unfortunately, the old-maps
> web site doesn't seem to allow me to just give you a plain URL, so
> bear with me:
[snip]
Hm. Doesn't seem to like Netscape.
Not to worry. Visit Joyce's World of Transport Eclectica, where I've
just posted a scan of an 1870 street map of Glasgow:
<http://www.btinternet.com/~joyce.whitchurch/maps/glasgow.jpg> (516 KB).
This confirms Alan's view that Sandyford Street has moved, or
alternatively, that there have been two Sandyford Streets at different
times. Sandyford Street is shown at the north end of Kelvinhaugh Street
but on the north side of (Old) Dumbarton Road and running parallel with
it.
My map shows Stobcross Docks by the way. If memory serves, these were
subsequently redeveloped as the Queen's Docks, bigger, deeper but still
in pretty much the same place.
If the "Underworld" chaps would like a scan of the whole Glasgow map,
get in touch. It is interesting for showing how Glasgow's railway
network had developed at that stage, with no underground lines to speak
of - in fact, only Cowlairs Tunnel and the tunnel to Buchanan Street
station. No low level lines through Queen Street or Central. And the
first link in what we now know as the North Clyde Electric network was
the Stobcross railway, a branch line approaching the docks from the
west, through Partick.
Tick, tock!
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Visit "Joyce's World of Transport Eclectica" -
<http://www.btinternet.com/~joyce.whitchurch/>
Alan J. Flavell
> Not to worry. Visit Joyce's World of Transport Eclectica, where I've
> just posted a scan of an 1870 street map of Glasgow:
> <http://www.btinternet.com/~joyce.whitchurch/maps/glasgow.jpg> (516 KB).
>
> This confirms Alan's view that Sandyford Street has moved,
Excuse me if this seems to be nitpicking, but I didn't say it had
"moved". The 1865 survey map that I cited shows this Sandyford St
just where yours also shows it, _as well as_ showing the one at the
western end of Kelvinhaugh St. - a street which can also be seen, but
is unnamed, on the plan that you scanned.
So it seems that both of them existed contemporaneously: only one of
them was later renamed (became part of Sauchiehall St).
I personally would be rather interested to get a scan of your plan,
if it's feasible please.
Alan Scott
analysis - see the Wayback Machine at www.archive.org sample from 1999, some
pages dated 1998 though not many pictures, at
http://web.archive.org/web/19981205201244/www.waverleyltd.co.uk/subway/kp-01
.htm
"Between the shaft and the ridge, looking like something from a Stephen King
movie, we came upon this ancient and grime encrusted street name plate, made
of solid cast iron and firmly fixed to the tunnel wall. Interestingly, none
of the streets above is now called "Sandyford Street", though this is
actually the old name for the western end of Sauchiehall Street, beyond
Kelvingrove Street."
I didn't connect the 1901 Exhibition plan with Kelvingrove Street, though a
route map of the Glasgow Central Railway shows it running north under
Kelvingrove Street.
I'd be interested to see Joyce's full 1870 plan, though more for
above-ground detail where my folks now live.
Another thought on the two Sandyford Streets is that the Kelvinhaugh one may
have been Sandyford Street, Partick, in the days before Partick Burgh was
merged with Glasgow; the one renamed into Sauchiehall Street being
Sandyford Street, Glasgow. No handy supporting Internet references,
though.
Alan S
>.. The 1865 survey map that I cited shows this Sandyford St
Alan J. Flavell
> The Milk Crate Gang did originally resolve this query, confirming Alan J's
> analysis
[URL omitted 'cause it got garbled in the quoting]
I see that now, and I have this sneaky feeling that I must have read
it at the time and then forgotten it, hence my determination to
research the issue all over again. :-( the little grey cells and all
that.
> I didn't connect the 1901 Exhibition plan with Kelvingrove Street, though a
> route map of the Glasgow Central Railway shows it running north under
> Kelvingrove Street.
Ta!
I had often wondered what the Dumbarton Road (_not_ the Old Dumbarton
Road, that was already Old on the 1865 map) did after crossing the old
bridge over the Kelvin (still open to pedestrians) - on the basis of
what can be seen today, it looks as if it wants to head straight onto
the Univ campus and the site of the Western Infirmary. But it seems
from the old maps that it did a smart left turn immediately after the
bridge, making a dog-leg which the present road bridge smooths away.
The details of that earlier alignment seem to have been obscured
already by the time of that 1901 exhibition plan.
Incidentally, that old bridge still has a pair of gates on its
down-river side, though they look as if they haven't been opened for
many years - their purpose was unclear, but I read somewhere that they
were used for dumping cartloads of snow that had been cleared off the
streets, into the R.Kelvin.
> Another thought on the two Sandyford Streets is that the Kelvinhaugh one may
> have been Sandyford Street, Partick, in the days before Partick Burgh was
> merged with Glasgow;
Yup, that makes sense. This is also why Glasgow Street, Hillhead is
now illogically Glasgow Street, Glasgow ;-)
cheers
Joyce Whitchurch
> Excuse me if this seems to be nitpicking, but I didn't say it had
> "moved".
Sorry - I read your earlier post in something of a hurry.
> I personally would be rather interested to get a scan of your plan,
> if it's feasible please.
Will do my best. I always have a problem with maps though - compress
them too much and they become illegible. Plus they tend to be too big
for my A4 scanner. I think the best I can do is to scan the map in two
pieces which you'll have to stick together yourself. Each piece will be
about 3MB though. Let me know (off group) if that's OK.
--
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================
Visit "Joyce's World of Transport Eclectica" -
<http://www.btinternet.com/~joyce.whitchurch/>
Alan Scott
cross-posted in uk.rec.subterranea, uk.railway -
The entity known as Joyce has produced a very legible 1 MB file which I've
posted with a scaled-down introductory image at
http://www.ourservers.net/~ascott/gmap1.html
This is a small quiet server but should be able to support it if the traffic
isn't too high.
Alan
alan.scott at dial.pipex.com
"Joyce Whitchurch" <Joyce.Wh...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3E19FB17...@btinternet.com...
> "Alan J. Flavell" wrote:
> > ...