Independent spelling

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Tone

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Jul 22, 2022, 9:47:05 AMJul 22
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That gets me every time.

How come 'independent' is the opposite of 'dependant' but 'independant'
iznay?

How do I get speel chucker to jbex automatically on Thunderbox?

Tone

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 22, 2022, 10:30:02 AMJul 22
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On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:47:02 +0100
Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:

> That gets me every time.
>
> How come 'independent' is the opposite of 'dependant' but 'independant'
> iznay?

Coz independent is the opposite of dependent not dependant (one is
the state of depending on sommat, the other is the one in that state).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Tone

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Jul 22, 2022, 1:01:50 PMJul 22
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On 22/07/2022 15:06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:47:02 +0100
> Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:
>
>> That gets me every time.
>>
>> How come 'independent' is the opposite of 'dependant' but 'independant'
>> iznay?
>
> Coz independent is the opposite of dependent not dependant (one is
> the state of depending on sommat, the other is the one in that state).
>

Not so according to my dickshunhairy

Adjective: dependant

Noun:
1. A person who relies on another person for support

1. Contingent on somthing else
2. Addicted to a drug

Noun: dependent
1. A person who relies on another person for support

Adjective:

1. Not independent
2. Contingent on something else

Tone

soup

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Jul 22, 2022, 2:00:17 PMJul 22
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On 22/07/2022 14:47, Tone wrote:

> How do I get speel chucker to jbex automatically on Thunderbox?
>
> Tone

Go to the Thunderbird tools menu and select Preferences.
Select the Composition tab.
Under Spelling, select the Enable spellcheck as you type check box.

soup

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Jul 22, 2022, 2:46:41 PMJul 22
to
On 22/07/2022 14:47, Tone wrote:

> How do I get speel chucker to jbex automatically on Thunderbox?
>
> Tone

Go to the Thunderbird menu and select Preferences.

Tease'n'Seize

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Jul 22, 2022, 3:36:51 PMJul 22
to
soup wrote:

> Tone wrote:
>
>> How do I get speel chucker to jbex automatically on Thunderbox?
>
> Go to the Thunderbird menu and select Preferences.
> Select the Composition tab.
> Under Spelling, select the Enable spellcheck as you type check box.

You porbably want to install Marco Pinto's British English Dictionary too ...

Adrian Caspersz

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Jul 22, 2022, 3:55:12 PMJul 22
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On 22/07/2022 14:47, Tone wrote:
cf. inflammable vs. flamable

--
Adrian C

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 22, 2022, 4:00:27 PMJul 22
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On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:01:47 +0100
Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:

> Noun: dependent
> 1. A person who relies on another person for support

Here is where I disagree with your dictionary it shouldn't be a
noun, but it's probably become one by common use.

Tone

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Jul 22, 2022, 4:07:15 PMJul 22
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Have dun that. But realised I needed to download a dictionary too.

Now jbexing.

Ta

Tone

Tone

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Jul 22, 2022, 4:08:38 PMJul 22
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As I found.

Ta

Tone

Richard Robinson

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Jul 22, 2022, 4:22:24 PMJul 22
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I like "apart" vs. "a part". 1 word, 2 things; 2 words, 1 thing.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Richard Robinson

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Jul 22, 2022, 4:23:24 PMJul 22
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:01:47 +0100
> Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:
>
>> Noun: dependent
>> 1. A person who relies on another person for support
>
> Here is where I disagree with your dictionary it shouldn't be a
> noun, but it's probably become one by common use.

An adjective pronounced with a silent noun ?

Nicholas D. Richards

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Jul 22, 2022, 4:41:40 PMJul 22
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In article <20220722203155.fb11...@eircom.net>, Ahem A
Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> on Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 20:31:55 awoke
Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:01:47 +0100
>Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:
>
>> Noun: dependent
>> 1. A person who relies on another person for support
>
> Here is where I disagree with your dictionary it shouldn't be a
>noun, but it's probably become one by common use.
>
The OED has it as a noun, and it has been for nearly 500 years.
Shakespeare used it that way more than 400 years ago (Loves Labours Lost
- "The best ward of mine honour, is rewarding my dependants .")
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Oů sont les neiges d'antan?"

Ilya Kostarev

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Jul 22, 2022, 8:28:41 PMJul 22
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Should be undependent?

Tone

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Jul 22, 2022, 8:59:28 PMJul 22
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Or disdependent

Tone

Don Stockbauer

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Jul 22, 2022, 10:27:18 PMJul 22
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Flammable
inflammable
non-inflammable

RustyHinge

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Jul 22, 2022, 11:47:30 PMJul 22
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Note: different parts of speech - adjective and noun.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

RustyHinge

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Jul 22, 2022, 11:49:40 PMJul 22
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On 22/07/2022 20:31, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:01:47 +0100
> Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:
>
>> Noun: dependent
>> 1. A person who relies on another person for support
>
> Here is where I disagree with your dictionary it shouldn't be a
> noun, but it's probably become one by common use.

I disagree with the dictionary TAAAW. 'Dependent' is an adjective, not a

RustyHinge

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Jul 22, 2022, 11:55:59 PMJul 22
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ASeemingly you *do* agree that dependant is a noun. Do you agree that
'dependent' is an adjective? (And possibly an adverb?)

I don't see it as a boneofcontention.

RustyHinge

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Jul 22, 2022, 11:57:42 PMJul 22
to
...and enable in 'startup'.

RustyHinge

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Jul 23, 2022, 12:02:03 AMJul 23
to
On 22/07/2022 21:22, Richard Robinson wrote:
> Adrian Caspersz said:
>> On 22/07/2022 14:47, Tone wrote:
>>> That gets me every time.
>>>
>>> How come 'independent' is the opposite of 'dependant' but 'independant'
>>> iznay?
>>>
>>> How do I get speel chucker to jbex automatically on Thunderbox?
>>
>> cf. inflammable vs. flamable
>
> I like "apart" vs. "a part". 1 word, 2 things; 2 words, 1 thing.

I like the early Collins' definition of 'nice': "Exact, precise, to the
point. Often used to mean pleasant by those who are not nice."

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 23, 2022, 2:00:03 AMJul 23
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On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 05:02:00 +0100
RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:

> I like the early Collins' definition of 'nice': "Exact, precise, to the
> point. Often used to mean pleasant by those who are not nice."

That is a nice definition.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 23, 2022, 2:00:03 AMJul 23
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On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 04:55:56 +0100
RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:

> ASeemingly you *do* agree that dependant is a noun. Do you agree that
> 'dependent' is an adjective? (And possibly an adverb?)

Yes exactly.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 23, 2022, 2:30:01 AMJul 23
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On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 21:31:59 +0100
"Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:

> The OED has it as a noun, and it has been for nearly 500 years.
> Shakespeare used it that way more than 400 years ago (Loves Labours Lost
> - "The best ward of mine honour, is rewarding my dependants .")

Yes dependAnt is a noun dependEnt is not.

Nicholas D. Richards

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Jul 23, 2022, 4:55:30 AMJul 23
to
In article <tbfrge$3kqo7$1...@dont-email.me>, RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@fooba
r.girolle.co.uk> on Sat, 23 Jul 2022 at 04:55:56 awoke Nicholas from
his slumbers and wrote
>On 22/07/2022 21:31, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>> In article <20220722203155.fb11...@eircom.net>, Ahem A
>> Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> on Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 20:31:55 awoke
>> Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>>> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:01:47 +0100
>>> Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Noun: dependent
>>>> 1. A person who relies on another person for support
>>>
>>> Here is where I disagree with your dictionary it shouldn't be a
>>> noun, but it's probably become one by common use.
>>>
>> The OED has it as a noun, and it has been for nearly 500 years.
>> Shakespeare used it that way more than 400 years ago (Loves Labours Lost
>> - "The best ward of mine honour, is rewarding my dependants .")
>
>ASeemingly you *do* agree that dependant is a noun. Do you agree that
>'dependent' is an adjective? (And possibly an adverb?)
>
>I don't see it as a boneofcontention.
>
Smallboneofcontention <grin> strangely the adjective is only spelt
'dependent', while the noun has the alternative spellings 'dependent'
and 'dependant'.

<Musings> if the noun 'dependant' has an alternative spelling of
'dependent', why does 'pedant' not have an alternative of 'pedent'?

Richard Robinson

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Jul 23, 2022, 5:32:38 AMJul 23
to
Because "English, what can you do ?"

Tone

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Jul 23, 2022, 6:43:03 AMJul 23
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On 23/07/2022 07:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 21:31:59 +0100
> "Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> The OED has it as a noun, and it has been for nearly 500 years.
>> Shakespeare used it that way more than 400 years ago (Loves Labours Lost
>> - "The best ward of mine honour, is rewarding my dependants .")
>
> Yes dependAnt is a noun dependEnt is not.
>

I goove it depends on whether you are speaking English or Merkan.

The Oxford and Collins dictionaries agree with you.

But

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/spelling-variants-dependent-vs-dependant

Tone

maus

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Jul 23, 2022, 6:56:16 AMJul 23
to
As the greatest number of Englishey speakers and writers now are in the
indian area (Pakistan, Bharat, Bengla Desh), perhaps they should be
considered in determining a standard.


--
grey...@mail.com
"Are you sure that you can live on your investments after retirement?
If not, send us all your money."

Brian Gaff

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Jul 23, 2022, 7:15:10 AMJul 23
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I hate as you type spelling checkers they spoil you chain of thought. I
always do it at the end.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tone" <to...@email.com> wrote in message
news:tbe9on$35fgb$1...@dont-email.me...
> That gets me every time.
>
> How come 'independent' is the opposite of 'dependant' but 'independant'
> iznay?
>
> How do I get speel chucker to jbex automatically on Thunderbox?
>
> Tone


Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 23, 2022, 7:30:03 AMJul 23
to
On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 11:43:01 +0100
Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:

> On 23/07/2022 07:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 21:31:59 +0100
> > "Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The OED has it as a noun, and it has been for nearly 500 years.
> >> Shakespeare used it that way more than 400 years ago (Loves Labours
> >> Lost
> >> - "The best ward of mine honour, is rewarding my dependants .")
> >
> > Yes dependAnt is a noun dependEnt is not.
> >
>
> I goove it depends on whether you are speaking English or Merkan.
>
> The Oxford and Collins dictionaries agree with you.
______^^^^^^

It's good to see they get something right in the other place, some
of their alumni have proved quite disappointing.

> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/spelling-variants-dependent-vs-dependant

Ah the infamous spelling revisionists - hey guys there is no world
shortage of Us.

chr...@privacy.net

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Jul 23, 2022, 7:54:39 AMJul 23
to
Synonyms aint they!

Actually, 'inflammable' is now of course deprecated as it became
ambiguous after the 1970s - like a lot of things!

Chris

Richard Robinson

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Jul 23, 2022, 8:08:02 AMJul 23
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It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world ?

Sam Plusnet

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Jul 23, 2022, 3:16:48 PMJul 23
to
I could (sort of) understand them going for a clean sweep of spelling
reform, but they didn't.
They just piddled around at the edges in a "Why the %^&*( did they
bother?" sort of way.

--
Sam Plusnet

Nicholas D. Richards

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Jul 24, 2022, 2:49:23 AMJul 24
to
In article <yOXCK.678632$83a5....@fx05.ams1>, Sam Plusnet
<n...@home.com> on Sat, 23 Jul 2022 at 20:16:46 awoke Nicholas from his
slumbers and wrote
The trouble with spelling reform, As I See It;

the pronunciation of words changes with time and place, so spelling
reform could only be a continuous process and would be different in
different parts of the country. Would it be garage or garridge, Nigl
Far-ridge or Nigel Farraage?

old texts, letters and cornflaik paccits wud become unreed'ble, or becum
a forrin langidge.

is it a plot to separate the poorly educated (the majority of us) from
our elders and betters who can afford the time and money to learn
foreign languages so that they can read that which should be our
inheritance?

Richard Robinson

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Jul 24, 2022, 6:30:13 AMJul 24
to
Nicholas D. Richards said:
>>
> The trouble with spelling reform, As I See It;
>
> the pronunciation of words changes with time and place, so spelling
> reform could only be a continuous process and would be different in
> different parts of the country. Would it be garage or garridge, Nigl
> Far-ridge or Nigel Farraage?
>
> old texts, letters and cornflaik paccits wud become unreed'ble, or becum
> a forrin langidge.
>
> is it a plot to separate the poorly educated (the majority of us) from
> our elders and betters who can afford the time and money to learn
> foreign languages so that they can read that which should be our
> inheritance?

Or just a wbo-creation scheme ?

soup

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Jul 24, 2022, 10:04:01 AMJul 24
to
On 23/07/2022 12:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I hate as you type spelling checkers they spoil you chain of thought. I
> always do it at the end.
> Brian
>
Thunderbird will do that, it's all in the preferences.

Sam Plusnet

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Jul 24, 2022, 2:38:14 PMJul 24
to
If they had had the courage of their convictions they could have done
the clean sweep, and stated that all worms are pronounced exactly as
they is spilled. After a generation had gone through school, everyone
(in the USA at least) would be singing from the same hymn-sheet &
pronunciation would be fixed.
>
> old texts, letters and cornflaik paccits wud become unreed'ble, or becum
> a forrin langidge.

<Shrug> Shakespeare is a forrin langidge to a lot of people today, so
reading "old" English would just become another specialist skill - like
reading Chaucer, or Beowulf.
>
> is it a plot to separate the poorly educated (the majority of us) from
> our elders and betters who can afford the time and money to learn
> foreign languages so that they can read that which should be our
> inheritance?
>
>


--
Sam Plusnet

Richard Robinson

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Jul 24, 2022, 3:28:00 PMJul 24
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Also it's fairly cheap and gets yer pissed.

maus

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Jul 24, 2022, 3:28:46 PMJul 24
to
I was told once that Shakespear could only be pronounced correctly by
Connought gypsies (for instance, they would pronounce `clean' as `Clean'
rather than it is now elsewhere. There was a legend that some of
Cromwells troops remained here, and joined the gypsy bands.

> If they had had the courage of their convictions they could have done
> the clean sweep, and stated that all worms are pronounced exactly as
> they is spilled. After a generation had gone through school, everyone
> (in the USA at least) would be singing from the same hymn-sheet &
> pronunciation would be fixed.
>>
>> old texts, letters and cornflaik paccits wud become unreed'ble, or becum
>> a forrin langidge.
>
><Shrug> Shakespeare is a forrin langidge to a lot of people today, so
> reading "old" English would just become another specialist skill - like
> reading Chaucer, or Beowulf.

Big difference between Chaucer and Beowulf. Beowulf would have been
composed, as far as anyone knows, before the Anglo-Saxon-Jutes left
Europe, when the language was very fluid, and some can be translated as
almost anything. Chaucer would have been written when the English
discovered that they were no longer French vassals.
AFAIK.


>> is it a plot to separate the poorly educated (the majority of us) from
>> our elders and betters who can afford the time and money to learn
>> foreign languages so that they can read that which should be our
>> inheritance?
>>
>>
>
>


--

Richard Robinson

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Jul 24, 2022, 3:37:02 PMJul 24
to
I tried to read Paradise Lost, recently. It's a great story, but still,
I gave up halfway through because I just didn't want to wade through all
the 'education' that Milton had and I don't - never say anything in 2
lines if you can do it by 2 pages of oblique references to 3 O.T
prophets and 4 previously unheard of Greek mythological thingies. I
suppose the OT stuff was understandable given the context ("What did you
do in the civil war, Daddy?"), but it's all Gr^H alien to me. Shame,
really.

maus

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Jul 24, 2022, 4:38:20 PMJul 24
to
On 2022-07-24, Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Sam Plusnet said:
>> On 24-Jul-22 7:45, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>>
>
> I tried to read Paradise Lost, recently. It's a great story, but still,
> I gave up halfway through because I just didn't want to wade through all
> the 'education' that Milton had and I don't - never say anything in 2
> lines if you can do it by 2 pages of oblique references to 3 O.T
> prophets and 4 previously unheard of Greek mythological thingies. I
> suppose the OT stuff was understandable given the context ("What did you
> do in the civil war, Daddy?"), but it's all Gr^H alien to me. Shame,
> really.
>

I read "Pilgrims Progress", and I could not understand how it would be
moral to leave your wife and children to follow some religion,
A local saint here, St. Kevin of Glendalock, was made a saint because he
left his wife and children to go to live in a cave. When his wife
followed to get him to come back, he threw her into a lake where she
drowned. Crazy stuff.

Where did these crazy ideas come from?.

John Milton wrote all those poems in the context of his time. He tried
to divorce his wife during the Civil war.

I liked and like, ``On his blindness". as I am now at the when I only stand
and wait

soup

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Jul 25, 2022, 3:11:47 AMJul 25
to
On 24/07/2022 20:27, Richard Robinson wrote:
> soup said:
>> On 23/07/2022 12:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>> I hate as you type spelling checkers they spoil you chain of thought. I
>>> always do it at the end.
>>> Brian
>>>
>> Thunderbird will do that, it's all in the preferences.
>
> Also it's fairly cheap and gets yer pissed.
>
Let's hear it for all "electric soups" .

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jul 25, 2022, 4:00:02 AMJul 25
to
Is that like "electric Kool-Aid" but warmer and more nutritious ?

Richard Robinson

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Jul 25, 2022, 6:57:39 AMJul 25
to
Also, electric pressure cookers.

The ultimate lazy cooking. Chop stuff up, put it in the pot, clamp the
lid down, push a button & go out for a while, and when you come back you
have a hot meal waiting. You wouldn't be able to stir it even if you
wanted to.

Mike Fleming

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Jul 25, 2022, 12:56:35 PMJul 25
to
On 22/07/2022 21:31, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
> In article <20220722203155.fb11...@eircom.net>, Ahem A
> Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> on Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 20:31:55 awoke
> Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:01:47 +0100
>> Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Noun: dependent
>>> 1. A person who relies on another person for support
>>
>> Here is where I disagree with your dictionary it shouldn't be a
>> noun, but it's probably become one by common use.
>>
> The OED has it as a noun, and it has been for nearly 500 years.
> Shakespeare used it that way more than 400 years ago (Loves Labours Lost
> - "The best ward of mine honour, is rewarding my dependants .")

Shakespeare isn't really a reliable source in the matter of spelling; he
did, after all, either not know how to spell his name or took his choice
from a selection of spellings, depending on how charitable you want to be.

Mike Fleming

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Jul 25, 2022, 1:09:13 PMJul 25
to
On 24/07/2022 20:28, maus wrote:
>
> I was told once that Shakespear could only be pronounced correctly by
> Connought gypsies (for instance, they would pronounce `clean' as `Clean'
> rather than it is now elsewhere. There was a legend that some of
> Cromwells troops remained here, and joined the gypsy bands.

Do Connaught gypsies speak with Brummie accents then?

Mike Fleming

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Jul 25, 2022, 1:10:50 PMJul 25
to
On 24/07/2022 20:36, Richard Robinson wrote:
> Sam Plusnet said:
>> On 24-Jul-22 7:45, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>>
>> <Shrug> Shakespeare is a forrin langidge to a lot of people today, so
>> reading "old" English would just become another specialist skill - like
>> reading Chaucer, or Beowulf.
>>>
>>> is it a plot to separate the poorly educated (the majority of us) from
>>> our elders and betters who can afford the time and money to learn
>>> foreign languages so that they can read that which should be our
>>> inheritance?
>
> I tried to read Paradise Lost, recently. It's a great story, but still,
> I gave up halfway through because I just didn't want to wade through all
> the 'education' that Milton had and I don't - never say anything in 2
> lines if you can do it by 2 pages of oblique references to 3 O.T
> prophets and 4 previously unheard of Greek mythological thingies. I
> suppose the OT stuff was understandable given the context ("What did you
> do in the civil war, Daddy?"), but it's all Gr^H alien to me. Shame,
> really.

More recent writers do that too, though - the Peter Wimsey novels have a
fair bit of reference in them.

maus

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Jul 25, 2022, 1:20:29 PMJul 25
to
On 2022-07-25, Mike Fleming <mi...@tauzero.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/07/2022 21:31, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>> In article <20220722203155.fb11...@eircom.net>, Ahem A
>> Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> on Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 20:31:55 awoke
>> Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>
> Shakespeare isn't really a reliable source in the matter of spelling; he
> did, after all, either not know how to spell his name or took his choice
> from a selection of spellings, depending on how charitable you want to be.

The bard is the source of much of our common language, he is
uncriticable (If such a word can exist)

maus

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Jul 25, 2022, 1:23:17 PMJul 25
to
On 2022-07-25, Mike Fleming <mi...@tauzero.co.uk> wrote:
Many recent one speak with cut-glass accents now. I was speaking of ones
that would have climbed the Reek in bare feet. The day is next Sunday.

Richard Robinson

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Jul 25, 2022, 1:33:35 PMJul 25
to
True, but she works a bit better for me, the quotes/references seem more
like pointers to things I might want to look up (not that I can remember
ever having done so, mind, but if I were to bump into Izaak Walton or
'Anatomy of Melancholy', she'd likely have prompted me to have a
look-see). Incidentally, since you mention her, is 'Gaudy Night' one
you've met ? It seems noticeably less trivial than the others.
Recommendation, if you like her anyway, not that you said you did. Or
anyone else, of course

T.S. Eliot, though ... blocks of Greek lettering in "English" writing;
S.E.P.

Sam Plusnet

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Jul 25, 2022, 2:23:17 PMJul 25
to
On 24-Jul-22 20:36, Richard Robinson wrote:

> I tried to read Paradise Lost, recently. It's a great story, but still,
> I gave up halfway through because I just didn't want to wade through all
> the 'education' that Milton had and I don't - never say anything in 2
> lines if you can do it by 2 pages of oblique references to 3 O.T
> prophets and 4 previously unheard of Greek mythological thingies.

You could instead try Pilgrim's Progress - where Bunyan says exactly the
same thing over and over and over and over....

--
Sam Plusnet

Richard Robinson

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Jul 25, 2022, 4:37:20 PMJul 25
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Now you mention it, I think I did see a copy somewhere and had a look.
Long time ago, but ISTR I went "nah, booooring" pretty quickly.

Incidentally (I seem to be rambling a lot atm. Ne'mind, these thing
happen) I read a Faintly Amusing Fact recently. All yer sober Puritans
all dressed in sober black ... was a Peacock Thing. Whatever they used
for black dye washed out very quickly, it took a lot more work to make
it stick than the other colours, so it cost a lot more. it was showing
off. Or so I read, anyway.

maus

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Jul 25, 2022, 5:10:51 PMJul 25
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On 2022-07-25, Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Sam Plusnet said:
>> On 24-Jul-22 20:36, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>
> happen) I read a Faintly Amusing Fact recently. All yer sober Puritans
> all dressed in sober black ... was a Peacock Thing. Whatever they used
> for black dye washed out very quickly, it took a lot more work to make
> it stick than the other colours, so it cost a lot more. it was showing
> off. Or so I read, anyway.
>
>

Before the puritans, there were rules on what sort of clothes a person
could wear ("sumpatery" or something like that). There are two breeds
of sheep in wales still, `Black mountain' and `Black', the latter
producing black wool which remained black even after being washed. The
monks needed it. I saw a breed of sheep called 'zwarbles' recently,
their wool largely black. When wool was valuable, people had to sell that
wool seperately, as it could not be dyed in any other colour.

In the future, when in any option, people will have to wear wollen
clothes to keep warm, rather than turning on the central heating, all
that stuff will become relevant again.

RustyHinge

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Jul 25, 2022, 10:37:51 PMJul 25
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And one wonders whether he was joshing with his "difference between a
hawk and a handsaw" or whether subsequent transcribers didn't know the
differnce between a harnser and a handsaw?

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

Richard Robinson

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Jul 26, 2022, 6:18:05 AMJul 26
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IANAH but ... I wonder, maybe they just didn't think it was as
important as we've subesquently come to ?

Maybe, the more Society-at-large comes to depend on it, the more
things like dictionaries become important ? Thinks, literacy statistics
around the time of Dr. Johnson ...

Thinks, "Had we but tuits enough, and time" ...

Richard Robinson

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Jul 26, 2022, 7:48:11 AMJul 26
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Richard Robinson said:
>
> Thinks, "Had we but tuits enough, and time" ...

It may have been this thread or not, but it'll do. Authors dropping
references that require above-average education to get the sense of.

my complaint of Milton was that the story was being told in those terms,
you don't have a clue what's happening unless you know the stuff in
question. And Dorothy Sayers was mentioned in the same context …

but in her case it's not important to the plot, it's just showing a bit
mre about the people (which isn't totally irrelevant, obv, but it's not
vital). More like pointers, I said, and might follow up but haven't yet.

My point being, I've just now remembered one that I did follow up. On
reflection, I'm not sure it was her (or what else it might have been),
but the same point applies, and it was John Donne's Valediction
Forbidding Mourning.

If anybody doesn't know it, the first startpage hit is
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44131/a-valediction-forbidding-mourning
and, people, it is good value.

Sam Plusnet

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Jul 26, 2022, 3:34:56 PMJul 26
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On 26-Jul-22 11:17, Richard Robinson wrote:
> Mike Fleming said:
>> On 22/07/2022 21:31, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>>> In article <20220722203155.fb11...@eircom.net>, Ahem A
>>> Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>>>> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:01:47 +0100
>>>> Tone <to...@email.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Noun: dependent
>>>>> 1. A person who relies on another person for support
>>>>
>>>> Here is where I disagree with your dictionary it shouldn't be a
>>>> noun, but it's probably become one by common use.
>>>>
>>> The OED has it as a noun, and it has been for nearly 500 years.
>>> Shakespeare used it that way more than 400 years ago (Loves Labours Lost
>>> - "The best ward of mine honour, is rewarding my dependants .")
>>
>> Shakespeare isn't really a reliable source in the matter of spelling; he
>> did, after all, either not know how to spell his name or took his choice
>> from a selection of spellings, depending on how charitable you want to be.
>
> IANAH but ... I wonder, maybe they just didn't think it was as
> important as we've subesquently come to ?
>
> Maybe, the more Society-at-large comes to depend on it, the more
> things like dictionaries become important ? Thinks, literacy statistics
> around the time of Dr. Johnson ...
>
> Thinks, "Had we but tuits enough, and time" ...

Until there was a dictionary which was generally accepted as a standard
reference work[1], it was hard for anyone to say what was the 'proper'
spelling.

[1] There were word lists and dictionaries before his, but they didn't
achieve the same recognition.


--
Sam Plusnet

Richard Robinson

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Jul 26, 2022, 5:45:28 PMJul 26
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I'd be suprised if no-one found a way ... "Attitudes to Prescriptive
Spelling in the Early Modern Era", ed. Gissa Grant

> [1] There were word lists and dictionaries before his, but they didn't
> achieve the same recognition.

Bonus pedantry points !

Mike Fleming

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Jul 26, 2022, 8:05:30 PMJul 26
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On 25/07/2022 18:33, Richard Robinson wrote:
> Mike Fleming said:
>>
>> More recent writers do that too, though - the Peter Wimsey novels have a
>> fair bit of reference in them.
>
> True, but she works a bit better for me, the quotes/references seem more
> like pointers to things I might want to look up (not that I can remember
> ever having done so, mind, but if I were to bump into Izaak Walton or
> 'Anatomy of Melancholy', she'd likely have prompted me to have a
> look-see). Incidentally, since you mention her, is 'Gaudy Night' one
> you've met ? It seems noticeably less trivial than the others.
> Recommendation, if you like her anyway, not that you said you did. Or
> anyone else, of course

Yes, I read it after the last time it was mentioned. I do have a paper
copy of it somewhere which I've never read (joined the "to read" pile
which then got transferred to another pile, I suspect) but I downloaded
the ebook to the Kindle.

Richard Robinson

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Jul 27, 2022, 7:26:10 AMJul 27
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okay .. my interest is wonderng to what extent the situation of the
main character is a comment on her own.

As in so many other cases, it's only idle speculation, I've not poked
into her biographicals.

Mike Fleming

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Jul 27, 2022, 4:25:00 PMJul 27
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On 27/07/2022 12:26, Richard Robinson wrote:
> Mike Fleming said:
>> On 25/07/2022 18:33, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>> Mike Fleming said:
>>>>
>>>> More recent writers do that too, though - the Peter Wimsey novels have a
>>>> fair bit of reference in them.
>>>
>>> True, but she works a bit better for me, the quotes/references seem more
>>> like pointers to things I might want to look up (not that I can remember
>>> ever having done so, mind, but if I were to bump into Izaak Walton or
>>> 'Anatomy of Melancholy', she'd likely have prompted me to have a
>>> look-see). Incidentally, since you mention her, is 'Gaudy Night' one
>>> you've met ? It seems noticeably less trivial than the others.
>>> Recommendation, if you like her anyway, not that you said you did. Or
>>> anyone else, of course
>>
>> Yes, I read it after the last time it was mentioned. I do have a paper
>> copy of it somewhere which I've never read (joined the "to read" pile
>> which then got transferred to another pile, I suspect) but I downloaded
>> the ebook to the Kindle.
>
> okay .. my interest is wonderng to what extent the situation of the
> main character is a comment on her own.
>
> As in so many other cases, it's only idle speculation, I've not poked
> into her biographicals.

She was very highly educated and a languages specialist. Her Wikipedia
entry is well worth reading. Her last husband, funnily enough, was a
Fleming (AFAIK, no relation).

Sam Plusnet

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Jul 27, 2022, 4:36:41 PMJul 27
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I suspect that "schoolmasters" did so prescribe - but I wonder of they
all sang from the same hymn-sheet, or made up their own.


--
Sam Plusnet

Bernard Peek

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Jul 28, 2022, 6:57:01 AMJul 28
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On 2022-07-26, Sam Plusnet &