Sorry. Forgot to do this.

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Sam Plusnet

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Jan 1, 2022, 3:20:36 PMJan 1
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I'm terribly sorry to have missed the opportunity to wish everyone a
Happy French Car-burning Day.

The old traditions seem to be fading away, since the 874 cars set on
fire this New Year's Eve wasn't a patch on the efforts in 2019.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59847372


--
Sam Plusnet

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Jan 2, 2022, 4:47:48 AMJan 2
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Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
engine and transmission.
Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Sam Plusnet" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
news:mI2AJ.1376457$LNrd....@fx09.ams1...

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 2, 2022, 6:00:04 AMJan 2
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On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 09:47:46 -0000
"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned.
> Just hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.

Mag wheels, which TBF have mostly been displaced by aluminium alloy
wheels.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

RustyHinge

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Jan 2, 2022, 8:25:37 AMJan 2
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On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
> engine and transmission.
> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.

Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
all magnesium.

Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

Adrian Caspersz

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Jan 2, 2022, 8:45:41 AMJan 2
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On 02/01/2022 13:25, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
>>   Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them  GRP
>> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal
>> from the
>> engine and transmission.
>>   Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or
>> burned. Just
>> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
>
> Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
> instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
> all magnesium.
>
> Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...
>

Someone has recently posted on YouTube an attempt to raise money to
replace his battery exhausted Tesla, by polluting the environment
explosively, receiving millions of views...

of small burnt fragments. Seems not much left.

If ye are unlucky to be in a fire in one of those, mercilessly you won't
feel unlucky for long ...

--
Adrian C

John Williamson

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Jan 2, 2022, 9:14:51 AMJan 2
to
On 02/01/2022 13:45, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

> Someone has recently posted on YouTube an attempt to raise money to
> replace his battery exhausted Tesla, by polluting the environment
> explosively, receiving millions of views...
>
> of small burnt fragments. Seems not much left.
>
> If ye are unlucky to be in a fire in one of those, mercilessly you won't
> feel unlucky for long ...
>
They usually start slowly enough to give you time to stop and get out,
though you may not have time to grab your phone or laptop.

Lithium battery fires are spectacular. I saw a car with such batteries
disassembling itself on the M62 a while ago. They kept everyone
including the fire service personnel a long way away, and every few
seconds, another cell went "Foof!" in the large ball of flames which
formed as the plastic body and alloy wheels and tyres burned merrily
away. When I drove past a while later on the way back, the burnt patch
was impressively large and sort of molten looking. The following day,
all that could be seen was a patch of new tarmac on the hard shoulder.

The real danger is that once you do put the fire out and get the remains
somewhere safe, they have a nasty habit of spontaneously re-igniting up
to 48 hours later.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Nicholas D. Richards

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Jan 2, 2022, 11:01:00 AMJan 2
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In article <sqs94f$6cu$1...@dont-email.me>, RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.
girolle.co.uk> on Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 13:25:33 awoke Nicholas from his
slumbers and wrote
>On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
>> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
>> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
>> engine and transmission.
>> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
>> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
>
>Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
>instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
>all magnesium.
>
>Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...
>
From what I remember of my Chemistry of much more than half a century
ago, iron wool heated until it glows will burn well in an Oxygen rich
atmosphere but when returned to a normal Oxygen atmosphere it stops
burning.

In fact modern versions of the Bessemer process use purish oxygen to
remove the carbon, magnesium, etc impurities in the raw iron. The molten
iron does not burn once the oxygen is no longer been blowing through the
furnace.

On the other hand a magnesium fire once started is extremely difficult
to extinguish. Water provides a concentrated source of Oxygen and the
exothermic reaction continues, producing highly explosive hydrogen to
add to the complexity. Carbon Dioxide reacts with burning Magnesium in a
similar exothermic and explosive way. I understand that dry sand, lots
of it was advised to extinguish a magnesium fire.


--
0sterc@tcher -

"Oů sont les neiges d'antan?"

RustyHinge

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Jan 2, 2022, 11:17:48 AMJan 2
to
On 02/01/2022 15:56, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
> In article <sqs94f$6cu$1...@dont-email.me>, RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.
> girolle.co.uk> on Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 13:25:33 awoke Nicholas from his
> slumbers and wrote
>> On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
>>> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
>>> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
>>> engine and transmission.
>>> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
>>> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
>>
>> Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
>> instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
>> all magnesium.
>>
>> Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...
>>
> From what I remember of my Chemistry of much more than half a century
> ago, iron wool heated until it glows will burn well in an Oxygen rich
> atmosphere but when returned to a normal Oxygen atmosphere it stops
> burning.

try mixing some shredded sisal and iron wool. A spark will ignite it and
it burns rather like a blast furnace. Excellent camping aid - in small
parcels.

> In fact modern versions of the Bessemer process use purish oxygen to
> remove the carbon, magnesium, etc impurities in the raw iron. The molten
> iron does not burn once the oxygen is no longer been blowing through the
> furnace.
>
> On the other hand a magnesium fire once started is extremely difficult
> to extinguish. Water provides a concentrated source of Oxygen and the
> exothermic reaction continues, producing highly explosive hydrogen to
> add to the complexity. Carbon Dioxide reacts with burning Magnesium in a
> similar exothermic and explosive way. I understand that dry sand, lots
> of it was advised to extinguish a magnesium fire.

Titanium burns like magnesium only worserer. If you get a piece burning
and you drop it into water, it will continue to burn under the surface,
and ignite the hydrogen released. Two fires for the price of one.

--
Rusty Hinge (Onetime fireman in the Murex [B.O.C.] Fire Brigade.)

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 2, 2022, 1:00:02 PMJan 2
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On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
"Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:

> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish a
> magnesium fire.

Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and oxygen
apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed to chlorine
triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too brief to contemplate
extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved in which case I want to be a
long long long way away.

John Williamson

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Jan 2, 2022, 2:12:35 PMJan 2
to
On 02/01/2022 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
> "Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish a
>> magnesium fire.
>
> Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and oxygen
> apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed to chlorine
> triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too brief to contemplate
> extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved in which case I want to be a
> long long long way away.
>
"Things I won't work with" part 1,098.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 2, 2022, 3:00:04 PMJan 2
to
I don't think anyone had made the pentaflouride when he wrote that,
it's apparently much the same as the triflouride but rather more vigorously
reactive and less stable.

Mike Spencer

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Jan 3, 2022, 2:19:55 AMJan 3
to

RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> writes:

> Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
> instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
> all magnesium.

Dunno about the engine crankcases but the early-60s transmissions
were Mg. I set one on fire trying to cut off the part where the
starter motor bolts on with an oxy-acet torch. I knew it wasn't
going to cut like steel, of course, but gooved I could melt out a
channel as I'd done w/ alumininium. Nice little sputtery fire, column
of dense flocculent smoke rising to the (happily high) rafters.

Alarums and excursions. I did, however, end up with a (somewhat
ragged and dribbly) chunk of transmission case that could be used to
mount a starter on an engine while on a repair stand.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Dennis Davis

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Jan 3, 2022, 3:54:57 AMJan 3
to
In article <20220102175148.f015...@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
>"Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish
>> a magnesium fire.
>
> Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and
>oxygen apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed
>to chlorine triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too
>brief to contemplate extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved
>in which case I want to be a long long long way away.

Reminds me of:

It [chlorine trifluoride] is, of course, extremely toxic, but
that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known
fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been
measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood,
and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water -- with
which it reacts explosively.
It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals -- steel,
copper, aluminum, etc -- because of the formation of a thin film of
insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just
as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up
in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed
off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with
the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with
this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running
shoes.
-- "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket
Propellants", John Drury Clarke, Rutgers University
Press, 1972, 214 pages. ISBN 00-8135-0725-1

Thinks, must get myself a new copy:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

Nick Odell

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Jan 3, 2022, 4:33:20 AMJan 3
to
Many years ago some sheddi - maybe yourself? - pointed out an on-line
version so that link should be somewhere in the archive of ye shedde.
I'm not going to Google for that right now...

Nick

Dennis Davis

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Jan 3, 2022, 5:16:52 AMJan 3
to
In article <2dg5tgld1f8ujg69h...@4ax.com>,
Nick Odell <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 08:54:56 -0000 (UTC), Dennis Davis
><denni...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

...

>>Thinks, must get myself a new copy:
>>
>>https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ignition-Informal-Propellants-University-Classics/dp/0813595835
>
>Many years ago some sheddi - maybe yourself? - pointed out an on-line
>version so that link should be somewhere in the archive of ye shedde.
>I'm not going to Google for that right now...

No need. Humanoid (that's me, allegedly) help is at hand. Online
PDF is available from:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf

An epub version of the book was kindly emailed to me by Steve
O'Hara-Smith of this parish.
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 3, 2022, 6:00:09 AMJan 3
to
I prepared an epub from one of the easily found PDFs (the
equations were fun) with the proof-reading help of several sheddi and
offered it to the copyright holders as well as putting it up on sohara.org.
I've taken it down now that an official epub is available at a reasonable
cevpr (at the time it was out of print and print copies were changing hands
for very silly zu).

Tim+

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Jan 3, 2022, 6:47:30 AMJan 3
to
Oo, ta for that. Had already looked on the bay of fleas for an old copy.
Got it saved on my i-thingy now.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Nick Odell

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Jan 3, 2022, 6:54:35 AMJan 3
to
Apols for not recalling your name there, Steve. The "Un" keeps falling
off my forgettery far more frequently these days. I blame the
shakeproof washers.


Nick

Mike Fleming

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Jan 3, 2022, 7:26:13 AMJan 3
to
On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.

It's used for some components on some motorcycles. In big lumpy form,
like an engine cover, it's not easy to set on fire, and can be welded.

"Goggles, gloves, and other equipment designed to protect the eyes and
skin of the welder must be worn. The possibility of fire caused by
welding magnesium metal is very remote. The temperature of initial
fusion must be reached before solid magnesium metal ignites. Sustained
burning occurs only if this temperature is maintained. Finely divided
magnesium particles such as grinding dust, filings, shavings, borings,
and chips present a fire hazard. They ignite readily if proper
precautions are not taken. Magnesium scrap of this type is not common in
welding operations. If a magnesium fire does start, it can be
extinguished with dry sand, dry powdered soapstone, or dry cast iron
chips. The preferred extinguishing agents for magnesium fires are
graphite-based powders."

Mike Fleming

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Jan 3, 2022, 7:29:00 AMJan 3
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On 02/01/2022 17:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 15:56:37 +0000
> "Nicholas D. Richards" <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that dry sand, lots of it was advised to extinguish a
>> magnesium fire.
>
> Yeah there aren't many things that will break silicon and oxygen
> apart, makes you wonder what magnesium is like when exposed to chlorine
> triflouride (or even pentaflouride). I expect it's too brief to contemplate
> extinguishing unless there are tonnes involved in which case I want to be a
> long long long way away.

Even if you start close by, very shortly you will be a long long way
away, and possibly no longer contiguous.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 3, 2022, 7:30:02 AMJan 3
to
No need to apologise - we all disunforget most things, me
especially.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 3, 2022, 7:30:02 AMJan 3
to
On 3 Jan 2022 11:47:28 GMT
Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oo, ta for that. Had already looked on the bay of fleas for an old copy.
> Got it saved on my i-thingy now.

Want the epub ? Does your kneemail jbex ?

RustyHinge

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Jan 3, 2022, 8:02:36 AMJan 3
to
In another life a scrapyard owner used to keep anything motorcycle for
me, and flog the bits at scrap ally prices to me - had some memorable
items: Wall Auto Wheel; 1910-ish 2¾ HP Douglas engine; complete (but
wrecked) DBD BSA B34 Glod Star; 90+ Douglas (pranged); can't unforget
any more...

One day I saw him put a VW Beetle injun on the heap of stuff to me
melted. The furnace was a firebrick affair with vapourised kerosene jets
playing on the metal. I warned him about the Beetleinjun, and that it
would likelyburn away with expenditure of much heat and a 'normouse
amount of light, but he said he'd melted them before OK.

Next time I saw him he had 'seen the light'.

Tease'n'Seize

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Jan 3, 2022, 8:04:33 AMJan 3
to
Dennis Davis wrote:

> "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants"
> John Drury Clarke

People who bought this book, also watch this youtube channel

<https://www.youtube.com/c/ChemicalForce/videos>

Nicholas D. Richards

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Jan 3, 2022, 8:15:05 AMJan 3
to
In article <squdl0$1afm$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Dennis Davis
<denni...@fastmail.fm> on Mon, 3 Jan 2022 at 08:54:56 awoke Nicholas
from his slumbers and wrote

> If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed
> off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with
> the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with
> this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running
> shoes.
> -- "Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket
> Propellants", John Drury Clarke, Rutgers University
> Press, 1972, 214 pages. ISBN 00-8135-0725-1
>
Reminds me of an inquiry into a coal pit fire:

Coal cutting machine operator: ".......and then there was a bloody big
bang, flames and sparks from the machine"

Counsel to the enquiry: "and what steps did you then take"

Coal cutting machine operator: "Bloody big ones"

The expletives were probably just a tad bit stronger.

Tim+

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Jan 3, 2022, 9:08:56 AMJan 3
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2022 11:47:28 GMT
> Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oo, ta for that. Had already looked on the bay of fleas for an old copy.
>> Got it saved on my i-thingy now.
>
> Want the epub ? Does your kneemail jbex ?
>

No real need thanks. Perfectly readable on my I-thingy and I can always
email it to my kindle address if I want it there. Thanks for the offer
though.

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 3, 2022, 3:09:19 PMJan 3
to
That PDF version (downloaded Ta!) is a tad more reasonable than the
£994.97 that the big river is asking for a hardback copy.


--
Sam Plusnet

maus

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Jan 4, 2022, 11:56:09 AMJan 4
to
On 2022-01-02, Brian Gaff (Sofa) <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
> engine and transmission.
> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
> Brian
>

There is a recent video on the Internet about a man who bought a cheap
second hand electric car whose battery started to give trouble, the bill
for a replacement was to be 20,000+. The Video is in Finnish.

I used to visit an old friend in the retirement home, whose roomate was
an exmechanic, and that man would join us. All you had to mention was
`used batteries' from Electric Cars, and he would complain about them.
It seems that you even need special tools to get them out of the cars.

maus

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Jan 4, 2022, 12:16:41 PMJan 4
to
On 2022-01-02, Nicholas D. Richards <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
> In article <sqs94f$6cu$1...@dont-email.me>, RustyHinge <rusty.hinge@foobar.
> girolle.co.uk> on Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 13:25:33 awoke Nicholas from his
> slumbers and wrote
>>On 02/01/2022 09:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?
>>> Have you ever seen what happens if a fire starts in one of them GRP
>>> Lamborghini roller skates? All that is left is a few bits of metal from the
>>> engine and transmission.
>>> Plastic was used extensively and one assumes it just melted or burned. Just
>>> hope nobody uses magnesium to strengthen cars.
>>
>>Some vehicles have magnesium body components. Many engines (VW for
>>instance) have magnesium engine castings, Rumi scooters were virtually
>>all magnesium.
>>
>>Get iron started and it's a devil to extinguish, and as for titanium...
>

I had a small lathe, when I could see well enough for it to matter, and
the steel cut off whatever I was cutting was a real danger, specially
when mixed with sawdust wne I was turning wood, fill up a sack of the
mixture, bring it well down the garden, and set it off.

The steel turnings were called swaff, or something lke that.

maus

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Jan 4, 2022, 12:29:02 PMJan 4
to
Back then there was an article on the "Daily Sketch" about how efficent
the Russian Coal mines were, the Russians would drill out big holes, set
the coal on fire, and harvest the gases for fuel somehow. At the time of
the collapse of the USSR, there was more news, that a snag had appeared,
there was no real way of putting the fires out, and they still burn.

One example was mentioned, a Russian majority area in Eastern Estonia.

How many years since the daily Sketch closed down?.

I have seen bog fires in Ireland. Once the fire had god down a bit into
the peat, there was noo real way of putting it out until winter rains

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 4, 2022, 12:30:03 PMJan 4
to
On 4 Jan 2022 16:56:07 GMT
maus <ma...@dmaus.org> wrote:

> There is a recent video on the Internet about a man who bought a cheap
> second hand electric car whose battery started to give trouble, the bill
> for a replacement was to be 20,000+. The Video is in Finnish.

Yeah an electric car is essentially a battery with a few bits
tacked on it, once the battery's dead the rest probably isn't too far
behind. A second hand electric car with a good battery is one of the
cheaper ways of getting a battery that big.

> I used to visit an old friend in the retirement home, whose roomate was
> an exmechanic, and that man would join us. All you had to mention was
> `used batteries' from Electric Cars, and he would complain about them.
> It seems that you even need special tools to get them out of the cars.

That figures, they occupy most of the space you don't see and the
wiring carries a *lot* of current.

John Williamson

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Jan 4, 2022, 12:32:34 PMJan 4
to
On 04/01/2022 16:56, maus wrote:

> There is a recent video on the Internet about a man who bought a cheap
> second hand electric car whose battery started to give trouble, the bill
> for a replacement was to be 20,000+. The Video is in Finnish.
>
> I used to visit an old friend in the retirement home, whose roomate was
> an exmechanic, and that man would join us. All you had to mention was
> `used batteries' from Electric Cars, and he would complain about them.
> It seems that you even need special tools to get them out of the cars.
>
This, and you need some very special equipment to recycle the lithium
variety. This is all because, to get the range required by users, they
are crammed in to any space available, mostly under the floor, and due
to the stress they are under, have to be liquid cooled. Early Teslas
used cells the same size as the standard 18650 lithium cell as used in
some vape sticks but with improved internals. About seven thousand of
them...

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.VNN07-8QxNNVVzJKi_8L6wHaEK?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

My little electric Roller Slate (A Reva G-Wiz) had a set of 8 x 6 volt
standard lead acid traction batteries, which could be changed in a
couple of hours by one person using a spanner and a screwdriver. They
are, of course, almost perfectly recyclable with minimal equipment. The
downside was that, if lucky, a new set of batteries would only get you
between 40 and 50 kilometres at a maximum of 65 kph. By the time I got
mine, it wouldn't make it the 20 miles to jbex and back. Still, it was
great fun round town when doing the shopping. :-)

Early Nissan Leaf cars used NiMh batteries, but they had a limited life,
and, as my brother discovered, cost more to replace at the end of their
life than it would to replace the car with a newer one. Not a major job,
but the batteries are irel rkcrafvir sbe gurve pncnpvgl.

Tim+

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Jan 4, 2022, 12:48:25 PMJan 4
to
John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 04/01/2022 16:56, maus wrote:
>
>> There is a recent video on the Internet about a man who bought a cheap
>> second hand electric car whose battery started to give trouble, the bill
>> for a replacement was to be 20,000+. The Video is in Finnish.
>>
>> I used to visit an old friend in the retirement home, whose roomate was
>> an exmechanic, and that man would join us. All you had to mention was
>> `used batteries' from Electric Cars, and he would complain about them.
>> It seems that you even need special tools to get them out of the cars.
>>
> This, and you need some very special equipment to recycle the lithium
> variety.

Recycling largely consists of rebuilding the good cells back into large
battery banks for domestic use. They’re far from being junk only fit for
scrappage.

Tim+

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Jan 4, 2022, 12:48:25 PMJan 4
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
I don’t think this is correct. Rich Rebuilds on U-bend has shown many
Tesla battery removals. Sure, they need a certain expertise and respect but
I’ve not seen any special tools involved.

Tease'n'Seize

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Jan 4, 2022, 4:06:33 PMJan 4
to
[mis-threaded due to brian's message not showing up on plusnet]

> Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> Maybe despite predictions, the Electric cars don't burn as well?

Don't mention that to Chevrolet, they've just recalled every single Bolt (some
for the second time) due to battery fires, supposedly it's going to hurt them
9000 zu per car to fix them, meanwhile they have instructions to owners such as
"do not park within 50 feet of other vehicles", "only park on top floor of
multi-story car parks" etc




RustyHinge

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Jan 4, 2022, 4:33:30 PMJan 4
to
On 04/01/2022 17:16, maus wrote:

>
> I had a small lathe, when I could see well enough for it to matter, and
> the steel cut off whatever I was cutting was a real danger, specially
> when mixed with sawdust wne I was turning wood, fill up a sack of the
> mixture, bring it well down the garden, and set it off.
>
> The steel turnings were called swaff, or something lke that.

Swarf

Tone

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Jan 4, 2022, 6:00:59 PMJan 4
to
On 04/01/2022 21:33, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 04/01/2022 17:16, maus wrote:
>
>>
>> I had a small lathe, when I could see  well enough for it to matter, and
>> the steel cut off whatever I was cutting was a real danger, specially
>> when mixed with sawdust wne I was turning wood, fill up a sack of the
>> mixture, bring it well down the garden, and set it off.
>>
>> The steel turnings were called swaff, or something lke that.
>
> Swarf
>


(north UK) to grow languid; to faint

Tone

Richard Robinson

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Jan 5, 2022, 8:22:20 AMJan 5
to
Yes, can turn up miles away from where it started.

Bill Bryson, somewhere, mentioned a coal mine in Pennsylvania-I-think
that caught fire manymany years ago and isn't likely to stop till it
runs out..

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Kerr-Mudd, John

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Jan 5, 2022, 2:39:57 PMJan 5
to

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 5, 2022, 2:44:48 PMJan 5
to
A lot of the waste tips at UK coal mines have smouldered away for
decades. Of course we aren't adding to the problem anymore.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 5, 2022, 2:49:24 PMJan 5
to
On 04-Jan-22 21:33, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 04/01/2022 17:16, maus wrote:
>
>>
>> I had a small lathe, when I could see  well enough for it to matter, and
>> the steel cut off whatever I was cutting was a real danger, specially
>> when mixed with sawdust wne I was turning wood, fill up a sack of the
>> mixture, bring it well down the garden, and set it off.
>>
>> The steel turnings were called swaff, or something lke that.
>
> Swarf
>
And hence Swarfega.

Which, it is said, was originally intended "for extending the life of
silk stockings".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarfega

--
Sam Plusnet

maus

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Jan 6, 2022, 12:33:00 PMJan 6
to
Interesting The Original story I remembered seemed what was typical
central planning blooper, where someone who has been put in a State
position even while being an idiot, makes a major *uckup.

maus

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Jan 6, 2022, 12:35:37 PMJan 6
to
On 2022-01-05, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> On 05-Jan-22 13:21, Richard Robinson wrote:
>> maus said:
>>> On 2022-01-03, Nicholas D. Richards <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <squdl0$1afm$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Dennis Davis
>>>> <denni...@fastmail.fm> on Mon, 3 Jan 2022 at 08:54:56 awoke Nicholas
>>>> from his slumbers and wrote
>>
>> Bill Bryson, somewhere, mentioned a coal mine in Pennsylvania-I-think
>> that caught fire manymany years ago and isn't likely to stop till it
>> runs out..
>>
> A lot of the waste tips at UK coal mines have smouldered away for
> decades. Of course we aren't adding to the problem anymore.
>

I wonder what the areas in the US, Australia, and Canada where massive
amounts of trees have been cut down to produce wood pellets to power the
Drax boilers, look like now?

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 6, 2022, 3:53:22 PMJan 6
to
If you pick the right type of trees, you can treat it as a crop much
like wheat, but the time between planting & harvest might be 25 years.

--
Sam Plusnet

Kerr-Mudd, John

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Jan 7, 2022, 7:07:28 AMJan 7
to
On 6 Jan 2022 17:32:58 GMT
The Russkies have their own, gas powered hole.
Darvaza:

https://i.insider.com/50744414ecad04ac2a00001c

Richard Robinson

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Jan 8, 2022, 6:46:26 AMJan 8
to
It'd probably depend on the local regs re cleanup ? In ways that would
be obvious to start with, but after that, stuff grows in ways that
depend on how the area was left ...

If you don't burn it, it produces methane when it rots. Perhaps we
should Ban Trees ? Bring Back The Goat ?

maus

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Jan 8, 2022, 1:13:23 PMJan 8
to
On 2022-01-08, Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
> maus said:
>> On 2022-01-05, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>> On 05-Jan-22 13:21, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>> maus said:
>>>>> On 2022-01-03, Nicholas D. Richards <nich...@salmiron.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In article <squdl0$1afm$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Dennis Davis
>>>>>> <denni...@fastmail.fm> on Mon, 3 Jan 2022 at 08:54:56 awoke Nicholas
>>>>>> from his slumbers and wrote
>>>>
>>>> Bill Bryson, somewhere, mentioned a coal mine in Pennsylvania-I-think
>>>> that caught fire manymany years ago and isn't likely to stop till it
>>>> runs out..
>>>>
>>> A lot of the waste tips at UK coal mines have smouldered away for
>>> decades. Of course we aren't adding to the problem anymore.
>>
>> I wonder what the areas in the US, Australia, and Canada where massive
>> amounts of trees have been cut down to produce wood pellets to power the
>> Drax boilers, look like now?
>
> It'd probably depend on the local regs re cleanup ? In ways that would
> be obvious to start with, but after that, stuff grows in ways that
> depend on how the area was left ...
>
> If you don't burn it, it produces methane when it rots. Perhaps we
> should Ban Trees ? Bring Back The Goat ?
>

depends. The Anti-Global-Warming people in california are blaming the
wildfires on regulations that were brought in a few years ago, banning
the cutting-back of trees and shrubs under power lines, because it is
antitree or some other daft reason.

The idea of not cutting back under powerlines seems even dafter than the
other mad things being proposed at the moment.

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 8, 2022, 2:43:42 PMJan 8
to
Usual reason for not doing something is to save money.

--
Sam Plusnet

Don Stockbauer

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Jan 8, 2022, 2:45:22 PMJan 8
to
How much carbon dioxide is being dumped into
Earth's atmosphere every year?

40,000,000,000 tons. (40 billion). 4E10 Bunch

Bernard Peek

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Jan 9, 2022, 6:52:21 AMJan 9
to
They have a point. Fires are an important part of the forest lifecycle.
Well-meaning but uninformed Americans passed laws that banned controlled
burning. As a result detritus built up until when the fires eventually break
out they are devastating and uncontrollable.

I think it's a uniquely American promble. Elsewhere the management of
wildernesses are done by governments.


--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com

Richard Robinson

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Jan 9, 2022, 7:00:31 AMJan 9
to
There are a lot of strange ideas around, I'm at a loss as regards
ranking them ... The idea that letting everything grow provides fuel for
bigger fires when something catches has been around for a while. Do
wildfires start more under power lines ?

I suppose even asking the question could make room for some bizarre
"theories".

chr...@privacy.net

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Jan 9, 2022, 8:56:24 AMJan 9
to
In Australia it used to be done by Aborigines - then they got stopped
and followed the US model - to similar devastation....

C

John Williamson

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Jan 9, 2022, 9:13:59 AMJan 9
to
Similar policies are having adverse effects on the moors in the UK, with
the added benefit that Grouse and their food require a number of types
of territory to develop well, which is best maintained by small fires
each year, such as occur naturally on the moorlands.

Don Stockbauer

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Jan 9, 2022, 9:41:11 AMJan 9
to
The area underneath power lines is a minuscule percentage of the entire forest.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 9, 2022, 11:00:02 AMJan 9
to
On Sun, 9 Jan 2022 06:41:10 -0800 (PST)
Don Stockbauer <donsto...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The area underneath power lines is a minuscule percentage of the entire
> forest.

Quite, also the problem solved by clearing growth under power lines
is not ignition of forestry but power cuts. I very much doubt that power
lines are a significant factor in starting fires, it's not about preserving
the wilderness but about keeping the wilderness away from the power cables.

Mike Fleming

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Jan 9, 2022, 2:39:40 PMJan 9
to
On 08/01/2022 18:13, maus wrote:
>
> depends. The Anti-Global-Warming people in california are blaming the
> wildfires on regulations that were brought in a few years ago, banning
> the cutting-back of trees and shrubs under power lines, because it is
> antitree or some other daft reason.
>
> The idea of not cutting back under powerlines seems even dafter than the
> other mad things being proposed at the moment.

It seems that they're not opposed to cutting back around power lines,
just opposed to how much cutting would be done. And it appears that it's
a legal obligation to do some cutting back.

https://www.sierraclub.org/california/cnrcc/pge-clearcuts-power-lines

Mike Fleming

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Jan 9, 2022, 2:41:23 PMJan 9
to
On 09/01/2022 15:38, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2022 06:41:10 -0800 (PST)
> Don Stockbauer <donsto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The area underneath power lines is a minuscule percentage of the entire
>> forest.
>
> Quite, also the problem solved by clearing growth under power lines
> is not ignition of forestry but power cuts. I very much doubt that power
> lines are a significant factor in starting fires, it's not about preserving
> the wilderness but about keeping the wilderness away from the power cables.

I think growth over power lines is more of a threat to power supply than
growth under them.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 9, 2022, 3:30:02 PMJan 9
to
I was thinking of growth under them becoming growth over, and
through, them with inconvenient consequences.

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 9, 2022, 5:19:39 PMJan 9
to
Voltage dependant.
High voltage lines tend to be... high up.
Medium voltage lines are slung lower down, & undergrowth can become
overgrowth - then trees can drop a branch onto them.

The protection circuits on those lines can at least try to deal with that.
If a short trips out the circuit, it will reconnect after a modest delay
to see if the branch has gone away, courtesy of gravity.
If not, it will give it a good blast to try & burn the short away.

--
Sam Plusnet
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