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Nominative Determinism

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Richard Robinson

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Jan 12, 2022, 6:28:37 PM1/12/22
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I've been reading history, again.

1) Battle of Waterloo, collapse of French army; the poor sod left trying
to organise the retreat was called General Grouchy.

2) In 1796 the voters of Launceston unanimously (all 24 of them) elected
Captain the Honourable Pownoll Bastard Pellew, RN


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Jan 13, 2022, 5:10:22 AM1/13/22
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Is this a bit like the last one there is left holding the baby though?

Like I often wondered what really did go on in Hitlers bunker at the end of
the last war?
Brian

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Nick Odell

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Jan 13, 2022, 8:16:36 AM1/13/22
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:10:18 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Is this a bit like the last one there is left holding the baby though?
>
>Like I often wondered what really did go on in Hitlers bunker at the end of
>the last war?

Whatever went on in Hitler's bunker at the end of the war was nothing
like what went on at the Boris Garden Party. There may have been
interesting things to drink at both events but at least at No.10 most
of the participants woke up again the next morning.

Nick

RustyHinge

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Jan 13, 2022, 8:46:48 AM1/13/22
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On 13/01/2022 10:10, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Is this a bit like the last one there is left holding the baby though?
>
> Like I often wondered what really did go on in Hitlers bunker at the end of
> the last war?

Or go off...

(Probably a rather ornate Luger)

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

RustyHinge

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Jan 13, 2022, 8:55:20 AM1/13/22
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*Most* of the parcipitants?

Oooooh *do* enlarge on that!

Richard Robinson

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Jan 13, 2022, 9:27:02 AM1/13/22
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I'm unforgetting what they said about Pres. Noxin, that the coverup's
worse than the crime[1]. He saw his staff all busy getting pissed and
assumed it was just the government at work as normal ? It explains a
lot, I suppose, but still ...

[1] which is not necessarily true in all cases, of course, given that at
least one of the 2 is a crime.

Richard Robinson

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Jan 13, 2022, 9:27:46 AM1/13/22
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RustyHinge said:
> On 13/01/2022 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:10:18 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
>> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Is this a bit like the last one there is left holding the baby though?
>>>
>>> Like I often wondered what really did go on in Hitlers bunker at the end of
>>> the last war?
>>
>> Whatever went on in Hitler's bunker at the end of the war was nothing
>> like what went on at the Boris Garden Party. There may have been
>> interesting things to drink at both events but at least at No.10 most
>> of the participants woke up again the next morning.
>
> *Most* of the parcipitants?
>
> Oooooh *do* enlarge on that!

Some of them slept late ?

Richard Robinson

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Jan 13, 2022, 9:29:46 AM1/13/22
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RustyHinge said:
> On 13/01/2022 10:10, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Is this a bit like the last one there is left holding the baby though?
>>
>> Like I often wondered what really did go on in Hitlers bunker at the end of
>> the last war?
>
> Or go off...
>
> (Probably a rather ornate Luger)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luge#Olympic_medal_table

Sam Plusnet

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Jan 13, 2022, 5:25:54 PM1/13/22
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On 13-Jan-22 14:27, Richard Robinson wrote:
> RustyHinge said:
>> On 13/01/2022 13:16, Nick Odell wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:10:18 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
>>> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is this a bit like the last one there is left holding the baby though?
>>>>
>>>> Like I often wondered what really did go on in Hitlers bunker at the end of
>>>> the last war?
>>>
>>> Whatever went on in Hitler's bunker at the end of the war was nothing
>>> like what went on at the Boris Garden Party. There may have been
>>> interesting things to drink at both events but at least at No.10 most
>>> of the participants woke up again the next morning.
>>
>> *Most* of the parcipitants?
>>
>> Oooooh *do* enlarge on that!
>
> Some of them slept late ?

And some had lateness thrust upon them?


--
Sam Plusnet

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Jan 14, 2022, 4:23:09 AM1/14/22
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Have you ever been involved in attempting to get public feedback ie
consultations or surveys?
The odd thing is that you get a bias. IE those who feel strongly, always
have their say, but those who either did not read the info or could not be
bothered never do, so you implement the policy that the consultation
suggests is most popular, even though only about 5 percent of the eligible
people bothered to give their views, then when the scheme is put into
practice, all hell breaks loose from those who never bothered as they say
they were not consulted. I guess its much the same as democratic elections,
and is why, I think, I'm in favour of compulsory voting.
Brian

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>

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Jan 14, 2022, 4:24:49 AM1/14/22
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Yes, at least we hope they did. I think Boris should be fined and those
fines sent to good causes.
Brian

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"Nick Odell" <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote in message
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)

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Jan 14, 2022, 4:30:57 AM1/14/22
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As I've said before, we often expect our leaders to be role models and act
responsibly, but sadly they are just like the rest of us and will try to get
away with stuff if they think they can. There is no info in that story of
how many people got Covid. It would be interesting to find out. I'd have
thought most of the participants in all those press briefings were far more
likely to get it than a load of people in a big garden would. I guess a lot
of what went on needs looking at. Back at the start care homes were not
protected well enough, and I know several people who despite PPE still got
Covid while in NHS hospitals due to poor practices.

After all, as Boris had had Covid, one might suspect he might be immune to
some extent.
Brian

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John Williamson

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Jan 14, 2022, 5:09:15 AM1/14/22
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The point is that in this and other cases which are coming to light,
those who set the restrictive rules for the rest of us, no matter what
our immunity status, were blatantly ignoring those same rules.

Boris has also,on many occasions, completely ignored the mask rules in
places where there were vulnerable people. In one case, this directly
led to an assault on ward staff at a hospital where he ignored the rules
in a ward, leading to "If he doesn't wear a mask, why should I have to?"
<Thump>

Do as I say, not as I do? Not a good way to persuade people to do the
right thing.

Even the Queen follows the rules, as we saw at Prince Philip's funeral
service.

On 14/01/2022 09:30, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> As I've said before, we often expect our leaders to be role models and act
> responsibly, but sadly they are just like the rest of us and will try to get
> away with stuff if they think they can. There is no info in that story of
> how many people got Covid. It would be interesting to find out. I'd have
> thought most of the participants in all those press briefings were far more
> likely to get it than a load of people in a big garden would. I guess a lot
> of what went on needs looking at. Back at the start care homes were not
> protected well enough, and I know several people who despite PPE still got
> Covid while in NHS hospitals due to poor practices.
>
> After all, as Boris had had Covid, one might suspect he might be immune to
> some extent.
> Brian
>


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

nev young

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Jan 15, 2022, 9:19:48 AM1/15/22
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On 14/01/2022 10:09, John Williamson wrote:
>
> Do as I say, not as I do? Not a good way to persuade people to do the
> right thing.
>
<not wishing to sound troll like but (I am quite drunk)>

Personal past experience make me want to write:

If somebody stops you as you walk down the street, pushes you against a
wall and demands you empty your pockets, provide proof of where you live
and your name, then takes your phone and uses it;

It's one law for a citizen and called a mugging
and another law for the cops and called a stop and search.

Just one example of us all (generally) accepting it's one law/rule for
us and a different law/rule for 'them'.

If you think for a couple of minutes you'll be able to come up with many
other us/them instances that we accept every day.

I'll start a list.
I may not drive my car at 70mph along the road where I live but the fire
and ambulance may and do.

I may not enter your home and remove property but the bailiffs may.



--
Nev
It causes me a great deal of regret and remorse
that so many people are unable to understand what I write.

John Williamson

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Jan 15, 2022, 10:28:36 AM1/15/22
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On 15/01/2022 14:19, nev young wrote:
> <not wishing to sound troll like but (I am quite drunk)>
>
> Personal past experience make me want to write:
>
> If somebody stops you as you walk down the street, pushes you against a
> wall and demands you empty your pockets, provide proof of where you live
> and your name, then takes your phone and uses it;
>
> It's one law for a citizen and called a mugging
> and another law for the cops and called a stop and search.
>
The police have to justify their actions, and while they are allowed by
the law to ask to see and inspect your possessions under certain
circumstance, they are not allowed to keep them without going through
the due process and must return them in due course. A mugger will just
take them. If a cop takes your phone or any other item *and keeps it
without giving you a receipt*, he will be prosecuted, just as the mugger
would if caught. If a cop hurts you, they can be and are prosecuted, and
sentenced if found guilty.

This is not the case in many other countries.

> Just one example of us all (generally) accepting it's one law/rule for
> us and a different law/rule for 'them'.
>
Same law. Extra laws apply to the police, who are permitted under those
laws, made on our behalf, to do what they do. If they exceed their
powers, they get a very large, heavy, book of laws thrown at them. If
you don't like this, then there are democratic processes to change
things. If you were to be sworn in as a police officer, you have certain
powers that others don't, but also certain restrictions on your
behaviour that others do not have.

> If you think for a couple of minutes you'll be able to come up with many
> other us/them instances that we accept every day.
>
Sure, but if you look into the details, there is normally a law, passed
by our democratically elected representatives, to justify it.

> I'll start a list.
> I may not drive my car at 70mph along the road where I live but the fire
> and ambulance may and do.
>
The laws and rules of the road apply equally to the emergency services,
though a blind eye is turned to any infractions *until something goes
wrong*, in which case the penalties are normally the maximum allowed. If
you check, you will find that a police car, ambulance or fire appliance
on the way to a "shout" very rarely exceeds the speed limit, relying on
their warning devices to get a clear path. If they hit and kill or
injure a pedestrian or cyclist, they are subject to the same penalties
as you would be if you had done what they did. One example I have seen
was a police car that went through a red light, hitting a vehicle that
was crossing its path, having passed a green light. The police driver
would have been prosecuted at a minimum for dangerous driving, and he
would have pleaded guilty. Nobody was hurt, as far as I could tell from
a few yards away, as the driver was having a heated discussion (On his
side) with both coppers.

> I may not enter your home and remove property but the bailiffs may.
>
Only under instructions from the court, and the first time they call,
they may only enter your premises if you give them permission to do so.
On subsequent visits, as you have already given consent, they may enter
at will. If they enter without permission, and remove stuff,that is
regarded as theft, rendering them liable to prosecution just as you
would be. The only exception to this is when they have a warrant issued
by the court, which, IIRC, specifies the items to be removed. This
warrant is often the result of refusing to allow them to enter in the
first place.

My point, though, was that the Prime Minister and others in the
Government are bound by the same laws we are, and if they flagrantly
break them, we are entitled to ask questions and take legal actions to
get rid of them. Breaking the law is not a good way to encourage others
to comply with it.

nev young

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Jan 15, 2022, 10:53:58 AM1/15/22
to
On 15/01/2022 15:28, John Williamson wrote:
> On 15/01/2022 14:19, nev young wrote:
>> <not wishing to sound troll like but (I am quite drunk)>
>>
> If a cop hurts you, they can be and are prosecuted, and
> sentenced if found guilty.
> Bwahahahah. Obvs never happened to you.

But you prev reply shows what I wrote. One law for us and another for them.

John Williamson

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Jan 15, 2022, 11:13:23 AM1/15/22
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On 15/01/2022 15:53, nev young wrote:
> On 15/01/2022 15:28, John Williamson wrote:
>> On 15/01/2022 14:19, nev young wrote:
>>> <not wishing to sound troll like but (I am quite drunk)>
>>>
>> If a cop hurts you, they can be and are prosecuted, and sentenced if
>> found guilty.
>> Bwahahahah. Obvs never happened to you.
>
> But you prev reply shows what I wrote. One law for us and another for them.
>
You would rather a cop was not allowed to arrest anyone? You would
prefer that someone who has had stuff stolen for them had no right to
recover those goods? You would prefer that a fire engine was not
permitted to get to a fire or road accident as quickly as possible? Or
an ambulance fail to reach a heart attack victim in time because they
would automatically get done for passing a red light?

Or are you just annoyed that a police officer legally used what he
considered and would have had to justify as "reasonable force" to deal
with you? If the law was broken, did you complain? If not, why not?

Richard Robinson

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Jan 15, 2022, 2:50:27 PM1/15/22
to
"The Police", in the idealistic abstract, may be as you describe it.
Many people will testify that actual uniformed humans don't always live
up to this description.

Being a white man with a midle-class voice, I have only experienced the
mild fringes of their dark side, but I will still say that the more
someone likes being in a position of power the less they should be
trusted with it.

And if anyone says anything about only a few bad apples, I will remind
them that the full saying was that one bad apple spoils the whole
barrel. And go on to wonder how long it is since anyone kept apples in a
barrel ?

Richard Robinson

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Jan 15, 2022, 2:58:22 PM1/15/22
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John Williamson said:
> If a cop hurts you, they can be and are prosecuted, and
> sentenced if found guilty.

The hurt/damage will still have been caused, of course.

Fnenu Rireneq'f abg tbvat gb pbzr onpx gb yvsr.

> My point, though, was that the Prime Minister and others in the
> Government are bound by the same laws we are

It would be nice if they gave the impresion of believing that.

Nick Odell

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Jan 15, 2022, 3:28:37 PM1/15/22
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I keep the ones from my tree in a wooden box. And even if I carefully
wrap each one separately in newspaper, if one of them goes bad, if I
don't catch it in time the rot will spread.

Nick

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 15, 2022, 4:00:02 PM1/15/22
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On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 13:58:16 -0600
Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:

> John Williamson said:

> > My point, though, was that the Prime Minister and others in the
> > Government are bound by the same laws we are
>
> It would be nice if they gave the impresion of believing that.

They are the cream of society or at least the bits floating on the
top.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Maus

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Jan 15, 2022, 5:14:44 PM1/15/22
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On 2022-01-13, Brian Gaff (Sofa) <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Is this a bit like the last one there is left holding the baby though?
>
> Like I often wondered what really did go on in Hitlers bunker at the end of
> the last war?
> Brian
>


Look at Downfall!. Other sources say that Frence and Swedish natzis
were there at the last.

--
grey...@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

Richard Robinson

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Jan 15, 2022, 5:21:02 PM1/15/22
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 13:58:16 -0600
> Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> John Williamson said:
>
>> > My point, though, was that the Prime Minister and others in the
>> > Government are bound by the same laws we are
>>
>> It would be nice if they gave the impresion of believing that.
>
> They are the cream of society or at least the bits floating on the
> top.

They're not the top, they're what provides bouyancy for the rich, thick
and full of clots layer. And to a lesser extent to the rest of us[1],
depending on the prejudices of the day.

[1] Chorus: "Us, paleface ?"

Mike Spencer

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Jan 15, 2022, 5:47:04 PM1/15/22
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> writes:

> On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 13:58:16 -0600
> Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> John Williamson said:
>
>>> My point, though, was that the Prime Minister and others in the
>>> Government are bound by the same laws we are
>>
>> It would be nice if they gave the impresion of believing that.
>
> They are the cream of society or at least the bits floating on the
> top.

Starting in the early 70s, the Whole Earth Catalog, for awhile, smugly
touted the motto, "Cream Rises"; eventually they admitted that "Scum
Also Rises".

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Richard Robinson

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Jan 15, 2022, 5:52:17 PM1/15/22
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I rather suspect that H.S. Thompson got there first.

John Williamson

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Jan 16, 2022, 3:06:12 AM1/16/22
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On 15/01/2022 19:50, Richard Robinson wrote:

> "The Police", in the idealistic abstract, may be as you describe it.
> Many people will testify that actual uniformed humans don't always live
> up to this description.
>
I've not met a bad one yet. Occasionally, I've met one doing a job I'd
rather they didn't do, but that's life.

> Being a white man with a midle-class voice, I have only experienced the
> mild fringes of their dark side, but I will still say that the more
> someone likes being in a position of power the less they should be
> trusted with it.
>
Not all are perfect, but what alternatives are there?

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

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Jan 16, 2022, 4:30:02 AM1/16/22
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On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 08:06:07 +0000
John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On 15/01/2022 19:50, Richard Robinson wrote:
>
> > "The Police", in the idealistic abstract, may be as you describe it.
> > Many people will testify that actual uniformed humans don't always live
> > up to this description.
> >
> I've not met a bad one yet. Occasionally, I've met one doing a job I'd
> rather they didn't do, but that's life.

Seconded - but I have heard stories - TAAAW on such occasions I've
noticed that they're not entirely happy about it either - but not
responsive to suggestions starting "Well if nobody wants this ...".

I think the response you get from them tends to depend on how you
respond to them - I can quite understand that most of them want potential
trouble to stay potential and if it won't then to get it stopped *fast* -
but being clearly not potential trouble tends to bring out the best in them.

At one PPOE my regular ride to the airport was an ex Garda who
served in some of the rougher parts of the border. He told me that he'd
quit because while he could cope with scrotes coming at him with clubs and
knives and even the occasional gun he found syringes terrifying - I can't
say I blame him. He had all the advanced driving training including
pursuit, we never missed a flight but it was sometimes fun - he liked
driving me because he had to be sedate and strictly legal with his regular
German passengers.

nev young

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Jan 16, 2022, 6:45:39 AM1/16/22
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On 15/01/2022 14:19, nev young wrote:
> On 14/01/2022 10:09, John Williamson wrote:
>>
>> Do as I say, not as I do? Not a good way to persuade people to do the
>> right thing.
>>
> <not wishing to sound troll like but (I am quite drunk)>
>
Good to see the first rule of posting still holds true.

I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
I must not post when drunk.
etc.


My sober posts never cause this much discussion.

Richard Robinson

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Jan 16, 2022, 8:12:58 AM1/16/22
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Most improvements start by recognising that there is room/need for them ?

Mike Fleming

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Jan 16, 2022, 1:37:02 PM1/16/22
to
On 16/01/2022 08:06, John Williamson wrote:
> On 15/01/2022 19:50, Richard Robinson wrote:
>
>> "The Police", in the idealistic abstract, may be as you describe it.
>> Many people will testify that actual uniformed humans don't always live
>> up to this description.
>>
> I've not met a bad one yet. Occasionally, I've met one doing a job I'd
> rather they didn't do, but that's life.

Almost all that I've met have been fine. There was one who was
determined to get me convicted of something and lied through his teeth
in court accordingly - it didn't work though.

Nicholas D. Richards

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Jan 16, 2022, 1:53:05 PM1/16/22
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In article <j4j6uc...@mid.individual.net>, Mike Fleming
<mi...@tauzero.co.uk> on Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 18:36:58 awoke Nicholas
from his slumbers and wrote
My old man did jury service twice, the first he never talked about, it
was a secrets trial in camera.

The second was burglary case, where they found the two burglars not
guilty. Quote "they were as guilty as hell but the police were lying".
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Oů sont les neiges d'antan?"
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