PADI Underwater Child Molester Specialty Course?
Scuba News
CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
during scuba diving class
Lee Bell
news:3f68f872$0$98267$45be...@newscene.com...
>
> CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
> during scuba diving class
>
> http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html
Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.
Lee
Nick Phillips
"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1d7ab.30269$NM1...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Sorry Lee but I have to object to this (and I know you weren't voicing a
negative opinion on being gay). Although it's way off topic and I don't
want to get into a huge debate like those on rec.scuba, I have to mention
that there is no link whatsoever between being gay and child abuse. Most
abuse of boys is done by married / straight men. I know its very dull when
things get 'political' and I'll drop the subject now.
Nick
x
There are two secrets to success...
1. Never reveal everything you know.
Greg Mossman
news:1d7ab.30269$NM1...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
> gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
> that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
> for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.
Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
with him ourselves.
DavidM
"Scuba News" <alw...@on-topic.scubanews> wrote in message
news:3f68f872$0$98267$45be...@newscene.com...
>
> during scuba diving class
>
> http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html
ouch. I hope that wasn't what happened to Scuba Bobby.
Cheers
David M
Lee Bell
> negative opinion on being gay). Although it's way off topic and I don't
> want to get into a huge debate like those on rec.scuba, I have to mention
> that there is no link whatsoever between being gay and child abuse. Most
> abuse of boys is done by married / straight men. I know its very dull
when
> things get 'political' and I'll drop the subject now.
Thanks for sharing this. You are correct that I am not voicing a negative
opinion about being gay. I am completely straight, but also completely
certain that others have just as much right to their own sexual preferences
as I do to mine. Whether this person was gay or not, the reported event is
exactly the kind of thing the BSA used in their campaign to exclude gay
people from the organization. The risk they described matches the event
that occurred. Gay or straight, the damage is probably done.
I apologize to everyone subjected to this cross posting. I did not notice
the source of the original posting before I responded. Like Nick, I have no
desire in promoting an extended discussion on this subject and, in
particular don't wish to participate in one across mutiple groups. This
will be my last cross posting on this subject . . . unless, of course,
somebody gets me fired up.
Lee
Eagle Scout. Proud to have been part of Scouting, ashamed at the way
Scouting is treating others based on the most personal of differences.
--
The latest survey shows that 3 out of 4
people make up 75% of the population.
- -
"Nick Phillips" <nick.remove...@bt.com> wrote in message
news:bkblpq$6re$1...@visp.bt.co.uk...
Grumman-581
> If someone did that to me and my friends
> when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have
> been arrested, we'd have dealt with him
> ourselves.
Oh, so you weren't a democrat back then...
de Valois
clean up:
Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and intimidation
a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp. You'd have
been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would have
done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely have
been too ashamed and humiliated.
Which is what these predators count on.
Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
de Valois
stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an instructor at
a Scout camp.
de Valois left this mess on 18 Sep 2003 05:42:23 -0700 for The Way to clean up:
Lee Willcox
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
He would not have gotten past the first one.
You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old Scout".
Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?
"de Valois" <deva...@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
news:bkc9a...@drn.newsguy.com...
Tricky
news:fMydnVaPO9s...@comcast.com...
> de Valois
>
> I don't know what part of the world you live in.
> The kids in my neighborhood would have put him into intensive care.
> He would not have gotten past the first one.
> You are about as wrong as wrong can be when you say "No 14 year old
Scout".
> Come on down to Dallas and I'll show you some real kick ass teenagers.
> I know that when I was a teenager in the Scouts I would have given him a
> session in how to field dress a instructor and hung him out to dry.
> Is there a merit badge for field dressing an instructor?
>
>
I suppose in Texas your children are used to being touched by
adults....usually your uncles.....
Lee Willcox
"Tricky" <scuba...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bkcgk3$6ct$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Tricky
Firstly, please don't top post.
Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
assault someone with a social problem.
Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems that
is spreading across the globe?
chilly
> stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an
instructor at
> a Scout camp.
The boys were taking dive training. If one of my instructors had have stuck
his hand into my pants while in the dive tank, I'm pretty sure I'd have
surfaced too quickly. Something doesn't add up here, Scout camp or no Scout
camp.
Lee Willcox
mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
are anywhere close to being the same thing.
Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
can teach him a whole 'nother life style.
de Valois
;)
Lee Willcox left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:18:32 -0500 for The Way to
de Valois
up:
>
WHOA!
Don't go equating Texans with Americans. Think of Texans as our Irish, and
you'll get the picture.
Lee Willcox
in fact you have never met one. :-)
Tricky
> Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
> mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
>
> I don't think that "social problem" and "pedophile"
> are anywhere close to being the same thing.
> Social problems, for the most part, can be corrected.
> I think that a pedophile is a pedophile for life.
> The only good pedophile is a dead pedophile.
> At the least he should be in prison where the BIG BOYS
> can teach him a whole 'nother life style.
>
>
Hmmm.. strong views indeed.
Therefore, if my father beat me as I child, I too will beat my future
children?
Whilst we're on the subject, lets start shooting anyone we don't agree with
or has a social disorder....problem solved.
Yes, you must be a septic.
<Rolls Eyes> And they let a Texan run your country for you?.....that'll
explain alot!</Rolls Eyes>
John Francis CID
wrote:
Strikes me the "scuba" and "PADI" part is a red herring, or just
another cheap ploy to generate readership. What difference does it
make if the guy was teaching the kids to dive or bake cookies?
Surely in his wildest dreams the person responsible for sharing this
little packet with actual divers doesn't expect any of us to believe
that PADI is now promoting paedophilia. Although the way some here
rail against PADI it wouldn't surprise me if there are folks who wish
it were so. 8)
JF CID
Alan Street
>
>Tricky left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:08:55 +0100 for The Way to clean
>up:
>>
>>Firstly, please don't top post.
>>
>>Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
>>assault someone with a social problem.
>>Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
>>Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
>>"suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
>>
>>But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems that
>>is spreading across the globe?
>
>WHOA!
>
>Don't go equating Texans with Americans. Think of Texans as our Irish, and
>you'll get the picture.
>
>
Keyboard.
Alan Street
>
>
>>
>> Firstly, please don't top post.
>>
>> Secondly, not all children in this world are brash young thugs that would
>> assault someone with a social problem.
>> Admittedly we do have a 'strain' of 14 - 15 y/o 'louts' growing up in
>> Britain that would happily knife a 60 y/o pensioner as soon as someone
>> "suggests" that they might be a paedophile.
>>
>> But maybe that's just the American attitude to solving social problems
>that
>> is spreading across the globe?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Sorry 'bout the top post. The company I work for
>mandates top posting, and I sometimes forget where I am writing to.
>
Mandates top posting??? For newsgroups?
Alan Street
says...
And he's not even a *real* Texan. He was born and raised in New England.
Lee Willcox
:-)
I fail to see where you got your "Therefore".
How does "pedophile" map to "child beating"?
I also said that MOST social disorders can be corrected.
Being a pedophile is not having a social disorder..
Twisting what I write does not change it.
???? Hummm are you sure you were reading my post ????
Lee Willcox
"Alan Street" <alan@nonono_irsi.com> wrote in message
news:vmjqo1f...@news.supernews.com...
WrongO. I was born and raised in Vernon, Texas. Where did you get
the New England crap?
Lee Willcox
the way they run it there. They want email and news to look the same
and one of the gods that be made the decision to toppost on all.
Tricky
Your arguing that being a paedophile is not a social disorder?
What do you explain it as then? A chemical imbalance in the brain, like
schizophrenia? If that's the case, then your statement for 'the only good
peadophile is a dead one' should apply to anybody with a mental disorder.
Depression? Fuckit, shoot them, bullets are cheaper than prozac...etc etc.
Paedophilia has been proven to be linked with childhood experience, parental
abuse, and misconception about role modelling in the years before and after
puberty, amongst other things.
If that's not your argument, then please state how you view the disorder
known as paedophilia? Is it a result of social or parental conditioning, a
disorder / disease, or simply the work of the devil (ha ha!).
When you can define exactly what your arguing for, and back it up with
relevant fact, then please post back.
Alan Street
I was referring to Bush, not you (see the above quote about letting a Texan run
the country).
Alan Street
Interesting. Dumb, but interesting.
Chris Guynn
"John Francis CID" <johnf...@sympatico.ca.remove> wrote in message
news:6dojmvofj8arehbvm...@4ax.com...
Could it be a new PADI specialty?
Lee Willcox
I suspect that upper managment does not know how to scoll
to the bottom of the screen on a post or email..
Or maybe it's the blond secretary's
It doesn't even rate an interesting, it's just dumb.
de Valois
Panicked, yes. Jumped the intructor? I doubt it.
de Valois
up:
>
Wow. Four hours until we reached "guns"...that must be slow.
de Valois
clean up:
>>
>Then you don't know any Texas kids, none at all,
>in fact you have never met one. :-)
Here's a hint for ya...
"Who shit on your shirt, boy?" :)
de Valois
up:
>
>Could it be a new PADI specialty?
In the interests of not inflaming an already touchy subject, I'm not saying what
I'm thinking.
Robert
Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
Irrespective of my opinions,
A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.
At most, probation and counseling.
On 17 Sep 2003 19:15:24 -0500, "Scuba News"
<alw...@on-topic.scubanews> wrote:
>
>CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
>during scuba diving class
>
>http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html
Chris Guynn
"Robert" <rob...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kr6kmv026hfutffru...@4ax.com...
> Maybe he was following the DIR principles.
>
> Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
>
> Irrespective of my opinions,
>
> A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
> for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
> it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.
A few questions...
1.) Are you saying a "good lawyer" would argue that his hands slipped into 2
separate boys swim trunks on accident?
2.) What would a slimy pool have to do with the boys swim trunks and
genitalia?
3.) What does the YMCA have to do with this?
>
> At most, probation and counseling.
At the very least, he's already lost his job as well as his ability to work
with the Boy Scouts. Unfortunately this will probably be true even if he
was not guilty of the accusations.
<snip>
C Guynn
Salty
You're right. Actually a few things don't add up here:
1 - The perp is older than usual for a first offense.
2 - He's been working at the same camp for several years without any
complaints.
3 - On the day that he decides to try this stunt for the first time,
not only does he attempt it with one child... but he tries with
several at the same time.
No. Something doesn't add up here at all and I'm not saying that
because it involves PADI.
MMackay-Blair
jer
I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.
> No. Something doesn't add up here at all and I'm not saying that
> because it involves PADI.
--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur
Dan Bracuk
: The company I work for
:mandates top posting,
Really?
Dan Bracuk
As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination.
The Best of Rec.Scuba
http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Dan Bracuk
:the way they run it there. They want email and news to look the same
:and one of the gods that be made the decision to toppost on all.
What happens if you defy that edict?
Lee Bell
--
The latest survey shows that 3 out of 4
people make up 75% of the population.
- -
"Dan Bracuk" <bra...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:jsnkmvgi4fnhr3dj2...@4ax.com...
Grumman-581
> What happens if you defy that edict?
You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?
Lee Willcox
"Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Bcuab.46997$834....@twister.austin.rr.com...
> "Dan Bracuk" wrote ...
> > What happens if you defy that edict?
>
> You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?
>
>
The blond sectary down the hall sends you a email reminding you of the
rules.
She thinks that if you don't top post, you confuse the email.
I suspect that it confuses her and not the email :-)
I see idiots, and they don't know their idiots.
Grumman-581
> The blond sectary down the hall sends you a email
> reminding you of the rules.
> She thinks that if you don't top post, you confuse the email.
> I suspect that it confuses her and not the email :-)
Well, mixing top posting, inline posting, and bottom posting in the same
message could be somewhat confusing... Personally, I prefer inline posting
with judicious clipping of comments other than what I'm replying to
directly... Of course, it also makes it much easier to take something out of
context... <evil-grin>
> I see idiots, and they don't know their idiots.
If you're going to say something like that, you really should spell it
correctly... Use "they're", not "their"... When one is criticizing others,
one must ensure that it can't be turned around upon them... <grin>
BTW, I agree with the spirit of your comment though...
Lee Willcox
"Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3Huab.47078$834....@twister.austin.rr.com...
Yep that was a typo.
That's what happens when your over sixty
and type faster than you can think.
In spite of upper management,
have a good day anyway.
Salty
> I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
> It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.
But then again, you saw nothing in the article that implied it was a
'problem' with him before. Why would you draw a negative conclusion
against the man when you don't know a thing about his history ?? Are
you pre-judging him ?? I think you are.
jer
Well, if his 'problem' had surfaced before, I presume he wouldn't have
been working that job for several years without complaint. Am I
expected to believe this pillar of community respect woke up only that
morning as a poolside pedophile? Not likely. So, I really do know
something about his history. So I think I'm not.
Lee Bell
> "Dan Bracuk" wrote ...
> > What happens if you defy that edict?
>
> You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?
Speaking of which, another worm virus hit yesterday. In the last 8 hours,
I've received more than 100 copies of the newest Microsoft security patch
plus a shitload of return messages indicating that outgoing messages to
people I don't know, weren't delivered. I've confirmed I'm not infected,
but it's 100% certain that one or more of those who have me in their address
book are.
Lee
Alan Street
wrote:
€Salty wrote:
€
€> jer <gd...@airmail.ten> wrote in message
€> news:<bkdhvv$r...@library1.airnews.net>...
€>
€>
€>>I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
€>>It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.
€>
€>
€> But then again, you saw nothing in the article that implied it was a
€> 'problem' with him before. Why would you draw a negative conclusion
€> against the man when you don't know a thing about his history ?? Are
€> you pre-judging him ?? I think you are.
€
€
€Well, if his 'problem' had surfaced before, I presume he wouldn't have
€been working that job for several years without complaint. Am I
€expected to believe this pillar of community respect woke up only that
€morning as a poolside pedophile? Not likely. So, I really do know
€something about his history. So I think I'm not.
To some degree, yes you are.
Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
Whether he got caught acting out on his desires for the first time or
has done this for a while, we have no idea. But if he's a peadophile,
it's almost certain that the urges have been there for many years.
The second scenario is that the boys are lying. Don't laugh, it
happens. It's less likely than the first scenario, but it's not unheard
of for a group of kids to plot to hurt someone by making false
accusations like this. Today, these plots usually fail because they
fall apart under detailed questioning (law enforcement has learned a
lot since the McMartin case), but by that time the initial story has
already done it's damage and the press isn't interested in the follow
up.
So, since you've only considered the first scenario, yes, you're
pre-judging him.
Alan
de Valois
>
>Salty wrote:
>
>>jer <gd...@airmail.ten> wrote in message
>>news:<bkdhvv$r...@library1.airnews.net>...
>>
>>
>>>I saw nothing in the article that implied it was his first attempt.
>>>It may have only been the first time he was ratted out.
>>
>>
>> But then again, you saw nothing in the article that implied it was a
>> 'problem' with him before. Why would you draw a negative conclusion
>> against the man when you don't know a thing about his history ?? Are
>> you pre-judging him ?? I think you are.
>
>
>Well, if his 'problem' had surfaced before, I presume he wouldn't have
>been working that job for several years without complaint. Am I
>expected to believe this pillar of community respect woke up only that
>morning as a poolside pedophile? Not likely. So, I really do know
>something about his history. So I think I'm not.
>
Not true. Look at the complaints against various Catholic parishes, many by full
grown men.
We can't presume, either way. He may, he may not. In America, that automatically
means he's innocent, since he hasn't been proven guilty (either in the current
case or of past cases), that we know of.
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu
>
>Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
>I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
>person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
time. This is done to protect both the youth (from improper behavior)
AND the adults (from malicious accusations).
-JimG
--
Jim Greenlee (j...@cc.gatech.edu) Microsoft Windows definition
College of Computing of multitasking: Software that
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 sucks and blows at the same time
de Valois
(UTC) for The Way to clean up:
>
>alan@nonono_irsi.com stopped playing nethack just long enough to say:
>>
>>Keeping in mind that we only know what's been reported in one article,
>>I see two possible scenarios. One is what you're suggesting, that this
>>person is a peadophile, has been all his life, and has gotten caught.
>>The second scenario is that the boys are lying.
>
>This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
>supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
>time. This is done to protect both the youth (from improper behavior)
>AND the adults (from malicious accusations).
>
Unfortunately, if he's the only dive instructor...
Chris Guynn
He wasn't...
"Another adult counselor was in attendance but was at another location in
the dive tank when the alleged fondling took place, he said."
The Florida Sea Base is one of two High Adventure bases (not classified as
summer camps) in the United States (the other is Philmont in Cimmaron, NM).
They focus entirely on water based activites. They have many scuba
instructors on their staff.
Incidentally, the summer camp I have worked for is expanding into new land
and will be seeking High Adventure Base status before too long. The problem
is that Philmont is a Nationally owned camp and the camp I worked for is a
council operation. Plus, the fact that these two camps would be in
semi-direct competition makes us think that the chances of getting High
Adventure base status are pretty slim.
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu
>>
>>This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
>>supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
>>time.
>
According to the CDNN article, another adult was present in the dive
tank, just not at the specific location where the alleged incident
occurred.
BSA takes this stuff very seriously. Just to show you how strict they
are on this - I attended BSA Summer Camp a couple of years ago with my
three children and their troop. One of my kids was injured and I had to
take him to the local emergency room. The camp staff insisted that
another adult go along with the two of us, even though it was my own
son that I was taking. If it is a BSA camp, then they are required to
adhere to BSA policy, which means two adults with the boys at all
times.
Every Adult Leader is required to complete a "Youth Protection" program
that addresses exactly these kinds of issues, and the aforementioned
SCUBA instructor should have known that. It's every adult's
responsibility to make sure that the rules are followed - to do
otherwise is just asking for trouble.
-JimG
--
Jim Greenlee (j...@cc.gatech.edu) If A equals Success, then the formula
College of Computing is A = X+Y+Z, where X is "work", Y is
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 "play", and Z is "keep your mouth shut"
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu
>
>The Florida Sea Base is one of two High Adventure bases (not classified as
>summer camps) in the United States (the other is Philmont in Cimmaron, NM).
There are actually about 40 High Adventure Bases in the US. Philmont
and Sea Base are classified as "national" camps. There is a third
national camp - the Northen Tier "Canoe Base" in Minnesota.
>Incidentally, the summer camp I have worked for is expanding into new land
>and will be seeking High Adventure Base status before too long.
Is that the Double H Ranch? I heard a rumor that they were getting
ready to do something there. I'd be interested in some details on it,
if you have any.
-JimG
--
Jim Greenlee (j...@cc.gatech.edu) Bad: Play a Windows CD backward, and
College of Computing you get a satanic message. Worse: Play
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 it forward, and it installs Windows!
Lee Bell
According to a separate report, there were two of them. The guy that is
accused of abusing the boys supposedly took them aside, one at a time, to do
it.
Sounds fishy to me, but you never know.
Lee
Chris Guynn
<Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:bkfja0$l7o$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> deva...@nailedandused.com stopped playing nethack just long enough to
say:
> >>
> >>This is one reason why the BSA has the policy it does regarding adult
> >>supervision. Adults are never supposed to be alone with the boys at any
> >>time.
> >
> >Unfortunately, if he's the only dive instructor...
>
> According to the CDNN article, another adult was present in the dive
> tank, just not at the specific location where the alleged incident
> occurred.
>
> BSA takes this stuff very seriously. Just to show you how strict they
> are on this - I attended BSA Summer Camp a couple of years ago with my
> three children and their troop. One of my kids was injured and I had to
> take him to the local emergency room. The camp staff insisted that
> another adult go along with the two of us, even though it was my own
> son that I was taking. If it is a BSA camp, then they are required to
> adhere to BSA policy, which means two adults with the boys at all
> times.
This policy does not actually cover father/son situations. For instance,
adults are NEVER allowed to tent with youth... unless the youth is their
child.
>
> Every Adult Leader is required to complete a "Youth Protection" program
> that addresses exactly these kinds of issues, and the aforementioned
> SCUBA instructor should have known that. It's every adult's
> responsibility to make sure that the rules are followed - to do
> otherwise is just asking for trouble.
You are correct, but I would also add that, not only are they required to
take the course, they are required to take the course EVERY YEAR.
Basically, the course consists of a video (that sucks) interpersed with
discussion about the topic.
Chris Guynn
<Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:bkfk23$lqn$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> chris...@sbcglobal.N.O.S.P.A.M.net stopped playing nethack just long
enough to say:
> >
> >The Florida Sea Base is one of two High Adventure bases (not classified
as
> >summer camps) in the United States (the other is Philmont in Cimmaron,
NM).
>
> There are actually about 40 High Adventure Bases in the US. Philmont
> and Sea Base are classified as "national" camps. There is a third
> national camp - the Northen Tier "Canoe Base" in Minnesota.
I always forget about the Canoe base... maybe because I have never had a
desire to go there. I actually didn't even know about the rest of the High
Adventure bases... That's good news as it may mean we have a better shot at
the designation...
>
> >Incidentally, the summer camp I have worked for is expanding into new
land
> >and will be seeking High Adventure Base status before too long.
>
> Is that the Double H Ranch? I heard a rumor that they were getting
> ready to do something there. I'd be interested in some details on it,
> if you have any.
Nope, it's Buffalo Trail Scout Ranch. Located inteh Davis mountains. Rumor
has it it is the third largest scout camp in the world (behind Philmont and
some camp in the Balck Forest of Germany). About 10,000 acres of some of
the harshest terrain you could ever hope to go backpacking in. It's hot,
rocky, steep terrain and I love it.
C Guynn
Dan Bracuk
:You get stuck applying MS security patches for the next year?
Speaking of which, did anyone else get a bunch of e-mail's from
<quote>microsoft</unquote> today. They come complete with a patch.exe file, and
this sort of text:
"Microsoft Consumer
this is the latest version of security update, the "September 2003, Cumulative
Patch" update which fixes all known security vulnerabilities affecting MS
Internet Explorer, MS Outlook and MS Outlook Express as well as three newly
discovered vulnerabilities. Install now to protect your computer. This update
includes the functionality of all previously released patches. "
The file passes my ISP's virus scanner and mine as well. I use Norton.
Of course the Microsoft Website says this:
"Microsoft Policies on Software Distribution
An important key to safe computing is to never use software from unknown
sources. As pointed out in a CERT advisory, malicious users often use "Trojan
Horses" to deliver harmful software onto unwary users' computers. A Trojan Horse
is a piece of software that appears to do something useful, but which actually
performs hidden, usually damaging, action on the user's computer. For example, a
malicious user might develop a game program that deliberately erases files on
the user's computer while it runs, and distribute it via a web site.
Another Trojan Horse mechanism that is frequently used is to send malicious
software to users via e-mail, claiming that it is a product upgrade from a
software vendor. Recently, several people have done this, sending e-mails that
contain software attachments to wide audiences on the Internet. The e-mails
claim that the attachments are product upgrades from Microsoft or other software
vendors, but in fact they are harmful software that may damage the user's
software and files when they run the attachments.
Microsoft never distributes software directly via e-mail.
We distribute software on physical media like CD ROMs and floppy disks.
We distribute upgrades via the Internet. When we do this, the software will be
available via our web site, http://www.microsoft.com, or through
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/search.asp?.
We occasionally send e-mail to customers to inform them that upgrades are
available. However, the e-mail will only provide links to the download sites --
we will never attach the software itself to the e-mail. The links will always
lead to either our web site or our FTP site, never to a third-party site.
We always use Authenticode to digitally sign our products and allow you to
ensure that they have not been tampered with.
If you receive an e-mail that claims to contain software from Microsoft, do not
run the attachment. The safest course of action is to delete the mail
altogether. If you would like to take additional action, report the e-mail to
the sender's Internet Service Provider. Most ISPs provide an "abuse" userid for
this purpose. "
Dan Bracuk
Whether or not they are idiots is a matter of opinion. They may have equally
uncomplimentary opinions of you.
Grumman-581
> Speaking of which, did anyone else get a bunch
> of e-mail's from <quote>microsoft</unquote>
Nope... It used to be in the old days when virus writers had to create
*real* viruses that would self propagate without any interaction from the
user... These days, they just rely on user stupidity... Hell, *anyone* can
write a virus these days since all it requires is user stupidity to
propagate... Yeah, MS does its part in providing security loopholes to make
it easier for them, but if we could just keep these damn users from clicking
on anything that is sent to them, it would cut down on a lot of the virus
infections...
Randy Cain
> Maybe he was following the DIR principles.
>
> Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
>
> Irrespective of my opinions,
>
> A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
> for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
> it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.
>
> At most, probation and counseling.
>
>
>
>
> On 17 Sep 2003 19:15:24 -0500, "Scuba News"
> <alw...@on-topic.scubanews> wrote:
>
> >
> >CDNN News: PADI scuba instructor arrested, charged with molesting boys
> >during scuba diving class
> >
> >http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i030916/i030916.html
Couple of items of interest here:
1) Why does it not surprise you that it is a PADI Instructor? Are you
stating that PADI instructors are more likely to be child molesters?
2) What does the YMCA have to do with a BSA Camp and PADI?
3) What does a slimy pool have to do with this particular case?
Curious minds want to hear the answers!!!
Randy
Robert
He looks like a good ole boy.......................white
I agree of your apprehension in the application of "good" to ANY
lawyer. They are all slyme.
A joke to lighten up:
What is the difference between a death skunk on the road and a dead
lawyer on the road?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The skunk will have skidmarks in front of him.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:08:10 GMT, "Chris Guynn"
<chris...@sbcglobal.N.O.S.P.A.M.net> wrote:
>
>"Robert" <rob...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:kr6kmv026hfutffru...@4ax.com...
>> Maybe he was following the DIR principles.
>>
>> Does not surprise me it is a PADI Instructor.
>>
>> Irrespective of my opinions,
>>
>> A good lawyer would argue that he was just following PADI guidelines
>> for the basic OW training. His hands might have slipped through. Maybe
>> it was a slimy pool. YMCA does not have a lot of resources.
>
>A few questions...
>1.) Are you saying a "good lawyer" would argue that his hands slipped into 2
>separate boys swim trunks on accident?
>2.) What would a slimy pool have to do with the boys swim trunks and
>genitalia?
>3.) What does the YMCA have to do with this?
>
>>
>> At most, probation and counseling.
>
>At the very least, he's already lost his job as well as his ability to work
>with the Boy Scouts. Unfortunately this will probably be true even if he
>was not guilty of the accusations.
><snip>
>
>C Guynn
>
John
No cocksucker in this newsgroup deserves any apology. Especially the
one you mention.
On 18 Sep 2003 05:44:06 -0700, de Valois <deva...@nailedandused.com>
wrote:
>Sorry Lee, I didn't see that Greg had posted this. Greg, my comments still
>stand. No 14 year old Scout would have the nerve to stand up to an instructor at
>a Scout camp.
>
>de Valois left this mess on 18 Sep 2003 05:42:23 -0700 for The Way to clean up:
>>
>>Greg Mossman left this mess on Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700 for The Way to
>>clean up:
>>>
>>>"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1d7ab.30269$NM1...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>>> Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
>>>> gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
>>>> that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
>>>> for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.
>>>
>>>Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
>>>two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
>>>old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
>>>when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
>>>with him ourselves.
>>
>>Lee, you were an Eagle Scout. You know damned well the meaning and intimidation
>>a figure of authority has over kids this age, particularly at a camp. You'd have
>>been scared shitless and unable to gang up on him. The *most* you would have
>>done was to go to your folks and rat on him, but even then, you'd likely have
>>been too ashamed and humiliated.
>>
>>Which is what these predators count on.
>>
>>Four Merit Badges Shy of Eagle himself,
de Valois
John left this mess on Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:14:51 -0400 for The Way to clean up:
Joe English
I am getting hundreds of them a day - I don't have - but can't stop the
mass mailings
Lee Bell
> I agree of your apprehension in the application of "good" to ANY
> lawyer. They are all slyme.
> A joke to lighten up:
> What is the difference between a death skunk on the road and a dead
> lawyer on the road?
The lawyer's estate will have sufficient funds to collect and safely dispose
of the corpse. The skunk will have to rely on charity.
Lee
Old Goat C.I.D.
So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
through to the drives.
Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
SOB's making these virsues up.
Rick Simms
"To expect your government to save you
is to be a bystander in your own fate."
MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST
"@n@h8spamcox.net >
must...@bellsouth.net Old Goat C.I.D. wrote:
>
> So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
> the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
> Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
> running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
> through to the drives.
>
> Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
> SOB's making these virsues up.
>
>
> Rick Simms
>
Rick,
I got over 400 of them yesterday alone. The AV software and browser got
them all and it appears nothing got through.
I do take exception to your proposed punishment. Absolute lack of
consideration for the sharks.
Andy
--
An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a subject.
An armed society is a polite society.
Alan Street
€On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:10:40 GMT, "Lee Bell"
€
€
Agreed, although it just occured to me that this sort of virus could be
used as an intelligence test of sorts. A savvy marketeer could develop
a program that returned the address of everyone gullible enough to
double click on the .exe file. They would then get a message that goes
something like this:
"By executing an application that only the most clueless wouldn't know
was a virus, you've identified yourself as a person too stupid to
operate a computer by yourself. To protect the on-line infrastructure
of the world from people like you, we've developed a special computer
system called WebTV. This system will allow you to surf the web and
exchange e-mail without giving you enough control to actually damage
anything. As a special offer, we've also identified a number of on-line
forums particularily suited to the needs and capabilities of our
special WebTV community. As a diver, we've bookmarked
www.scubaboard.com specially for you. Please disconnect your computer
from the internet now and start enjoying your new WebTV "Clueless
Drooler" (tm) service."
Alan
Old Goat C.I.D.
>
>
>must...@bellsouth.net Old Goat C.I.D. wrote:
>>
>> So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
>> the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
>> Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
>> running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
>> through to the drives.
>>
>> Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
>> SOB's making these virsues up.
>>
>>
>> Rick Simms
>>
>
>Rick,
>I got over 400 of them yesterday alone. The AV software and browser got
>them all and it appears nothing got through.
>
>I do take exception to your proposed punishment. Absolute lack of
>consideration for the sharks.
>
>Andy
You're correct.
My apologies to the sharks.
Lee Bell
> So far I've deleted over 150 delivered but detected and quarentined by
> the AV software. Deleted another 100 detected and isolated by
> Bellsouth's Mailguard service. And spent the last hour and a half
> running a scan disk on two computers just to make sure nothing got
> through to the drives.
>
> Baiting sharks with their bleeding carcasses would be too kind for the
> SOB's making these virsues up.
I just logged on for the first time since about noon and the rule I set up
sent more than 90 messages to the deleted files bin . . . and that's a
reduction in what I have been receiving over the last few days.
Now Dazed and Confuzed reports that his messages to me are boucing due to a
full inbox. If anybody else is having this problem, please keep trying.
Lee
Christopher Hamilton
instructor and are they more or less surprised he was working for the
scouts? Was he a scout master? I know there is a long process here to have
anything to do with children, background checks, criminal records checks. Is
it the same everywhere? I am assuming not!
"Randy Cain" <tennd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:182d37b7.03091...@posting.google.com...
Old Goat C.I.D.
Old Goat C.I.D.
I sent my reply to you regarding the Boynton/Pompano dive. I didn't
get a bounce so, I hope you got it.
Let me know if you didn't.
Chris Guynn
"Christopher Hamilton" <ha...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Fh6bb.12968$Ej.19...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> I am curious to know why some people aren't surprised he was a padi
> instructor and are they more or less surprised he was working for the
> scouts? Was he a scout master? I know there is a long process here to have
> anything to do with children, background checks, criminal records checks.
Is
> it the same everywhere? I am assuming not!
I can't say for sure whether or not he was a scoutmaster, but I can say that
the likelihood of that being true is very slim. He would have had to go
through the background checks because he would have to be a registered adult
in the Boy Scouts. I don't know how extensive the background checks are,
but from what I hear they are pretty good. I'm not surprised that someone
working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who were
pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their "leadership"
positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI instructor,
I am not surprised that he is. The Boy Scouts position on scuba diving is
fairly restrictive. One of the requirements is that the leader of the scuba
"adventure" must be certified by an agency recognized by the BSA. The
published list of recognized agencies includes 2 (PADI and NAUI). They
recognize and allow more agency affiliations than that, but you have to get
special permission for other agencies. At least, that's the way it was 2
summers ago when I was certified to be a BSA Aquatics Inctructor (BSA AI)
and, from what I hear, it didn't change over the last year (my best friend
was recertified as a BSA AI last summer).
<snip>
Nitespark
Chris Guynn wrote:
> I can't say for sure whether or not he was a scoutmaster, but I can say that
> the likelihood of that being true is very slim. He would have had to go
> through the background checks because he would have to be a registered adult
> in the Boy Scouts. I don't know how extensive the background checks are,
> but from what I hear they are pretty good. I'm not surprised that someone
> working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
> surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who were
> pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their "leadership"
> positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI instructor,
Chris,
A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all. In my local area, a
substitute teacher, who was also an ordained minister, was recently
arrested for indecent liberties. The local school board did an
extensive background investigation on this person and nothing turned up.
A spokesman with the school board interviewed on the news said this
person was suspended from his substitute teaching position, and barred
from any school property.
Now as far as the person in the original post being PADI, whether or not
he is guilty is not for me to decide, but even if he is, I doubt the
certifying agency has anything to do with his criminal intentions.
Could have just as easily been NAUI, SSI, etc etc.
--
Claravoiant meeting canceled due to unforseen events.
Chris Guynn
"Nitespark" <nite...@h8spam.cox.net> wrote in message
news:emGbb.2076$k74.236@lakeread05...
>
>
> Chris Guynn wrote:
>
>
> > I can't say for sure whether or not he was a scoutmaster, but I can say
that
> > the likelihood of that being true is very slim. He would have had to go
> > through the background checks because he would have to be a registered
adult
> > in the Boy Scouts. I don't know how extensive the background checks
are,
> > but from what I hear they are pretty good. I'm not surprised that
someone
> > working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
> > surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who
were
> > pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their
"leadership"
> > positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI
instructor,
>
> Chris,
> A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
> pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all.
Agreed. I would imagine that a pedophile can often get away with numerous
incidents without being reported. If they aren't reported, a background
check doesn't help much. Also, a background check doesn't help much for
first time offenders. Unfortunately, it is no where near a cure-all, but it
does help.
> In my local area, a
> substitute teacher, who was also an ordained minister, was recently
> arrested for indecent liberties. The local school board did an
> extensive background investigation on this person and nothing turned up.
>
> A spokesman with the school board interviewed on the news said this
> person was suspended from his substitute teaching position, and barred
> from any school property.
Now the question becomes, if they are found not guilty, do you allow them
back into the school system?
>
> Now as far as the person in the original post being PADI, whether or not
> he is guilty is not for me to decide, but even if he is, I doubt the
> certifying agency has anything to do with his criminal intentions.
> Could have just as easily been NAUI, SSI, etc etc.
I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I dais that the certifying agency was
really irrelevant. I wasn't surprised it was PADI, but I would have been
equally unsurprised if it had been NAUI and only (very)slightly more
surprised if it had been SSI (simply because of the BSA policy on recognized
agencies... SSI and others qualify, but they have to have special
permission).
C Guynn
Nitespark
Chris Guynn wrote:
>>>working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I wasn't
>>>surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who
>
> were
>
>>>pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their
>
> "leadership"
>
>>>positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI
>
> instructor,
>
>>Chris,
>>A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
>>pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all.
>
>
> Agreed. I would imagine that a pedophile can often get away with numerous
> incidents without being reported. If they aren't reported, a background
> check doesn't help much. Also, a background check doesn't help much for
> first time offenders. Unfortunately, it is no where near a cure-all, but it
> does help.
It is very much like the crime of rape. A vast number of rapes are NOT
reported. Likewise, if the rapist has never been arrested, then he can
get away with the crime until someone does get the courage to come
forward, or the crime escalates, with injury.
Probably the biggest deterrent is the knowledge the WILL be caught and
when they are, they WILL be dealt with harshly. Criminals that commit
crimes against kids have a VERY tough time in prison.
>
>
>>In my local area, a
>>substitute teacher, who was also an ordained minister, was recently
>>arrested for indecent liberties. The local school board did an
>>extensive background investigation on this person and nothing turned up.
>>
>>A spokesman with the school board interviewed on the news said this
>>person was suspended from his substitute teaching position, and barred
>>from any school property.
>
>
> Now the question becomes, if they are found not guilty, do you allow them
> back into the school system?
Good question. My personal opinion...HELL NO!!! Unless it can be
proved the victims lied and made the entire episodes up....but I think
in this case, it was multiple victims on multiple occassions. That is
much harder to fabricate than a "one victim, one incident" scenario.
Grumman-581
> Criminals that commit crimes against kids
> have a VERY tough time in prison.
As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>
Nitespark
Grumman-581 wrote:
Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.
de Valois
up:
>
>
>
>Grumman-581 wrote:
>
>> "Nitespark" wrote ...
>>
>>>Criminals that commit crimes against kids
>>>have a VERY tough time in prison.
>>
>>
>> As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
>> lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>
>>
>
>Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.
I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
dark cloud.
In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man does
not have to.
Nitespark
de Valois wrote:
> Nitespark left this mess on Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:31:39 -0400 for The Way to clean
> up:
>
>>
>>
>>Grumman-581 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Nitespark" wrote ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Criminals that commit crimes against kids
>>>>have a VERY tough time in prison.
>>>
>>>
>>>As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
>>>lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death... <evil-grin>
>>>
>>Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.
>
>
> I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
> real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
> dark cloud.
He DID live the rest of his life in jail under that dark cloud.
While I agree with you, confinement for the rest of his natural life
would have been appropriate punishment for molesting kids, I shed no
tears at his demise.
My comment was NOT meant as much as an opinion on how appropriate the
punishment, as much as we can now absolutely guarantee that HE will
never commit that crime, or any crime again.
I have dealt with situations where the death penalty was quite appropriate.
>
> In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man does
> not have to.
Jesus will forgive him and died for his sins. God will sit in judgement.
Chris Guynn
>
>
> Chris Guynn wrote:
>
>
> >>>working for the scouts would be a pedophile fo rthe same reason I
wasn't
> >>>surprised that their were such a large number of Catholic clergy who
> >
> > were
> >
> >>>pedophiles. They seek out positions where they can use their
> >
> > "leadership"
> >
> >>>positions to take advantage of children. As far as being a PADI
> >
> > instructor,
> >
> >>Chris,
> >>A background investigation certainly screens out a LOT of the would be
> >>pedophiles, but it is not an absolute cure-all.
> >
> >
> > Agreed. I would imagine that a pedophile can often get away with
numerous
> > incidents without being reported. If they aren't reported, a background
> > check doesn't help much. Also, a background check doesn't help much for
> > first time offenders. Unfortunately, it is no where near a cure-all,
but it
> > does help.
>
> It is very much like the crime of rape. A vast number of rapes are NOT
> reported. Likewise, if the rapist has never been arrested, then he can
> get away with the crime until someone does get the courage to come
> forward, or the crime escalates, with injury.
Precisely my point. Thanks for saying it better than I did.
>
> Probably the biggest deterrent is the knowledge the WILL be caught and
> when they are, they WILL be dealt with harshly. Criminals that commit
> crimes against kids have a VERY tough time in prison.
Too bad the deterrent doesn't work better. Of course that could be said
until the crimes were completely wiped out...
> Good question. My personal opinion...HELL NO!!! Unless it can be
> proved the victims lied and made the entire episodes up....but I think
> in this case, it was multiple victims on multiple occassions. That is
> much harder to fabricate than a "one victim, one incident" scenario.
I have mixed feelings about this. A verdict of Not Guilty really only means
that the prosecution couldn't prove their case. It doesn't mean he didn't
do it; although, for most intents and purposes, a verdict of not guilty is
viewed (by many) the same as innocent. I'm not sure what the legal
ramifications are, but I would guess that if he is found not guilty it would
be hard to justify not re-hiring him simply because he had been accused. On
the other hand, I wouldn't want my kid going to school there and I
especially wouldn't want my kid to be in his class.
Chris Guynn
"de Valois" <deva...@nailedandused.com> wrote in message
news:bkpgf...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Nitespark left this mess on Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:31:39 -0400 for The Way to
clean
> up:
> >
> >
> >
> >Grumman-581 wrote:
> >
> >> "Nitespark" wrote ...
> >>
> >>>Criminals that commit crimes against kids
> >>>have a VERY tough time in prison.
> >>
> >>
> >> As that Catholic priest so recently found out... Even in a protective
> >> lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death...
<evil-grin>
> >>
> >
> >Now THAT is a cure for recidivism.
>
> I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I
think his
> real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under
that
> dark cloud.
I have mixed feelings about this. It does seem that killing him made it
less of a punishment if only because the punishment didn't last so long. On
the other hand, if the person has a life sentence (without possibility of
parole), why burden teh taxpayers with his upkeep? Personally, I haven't
decided yet which side of this fence I come down on and generally skip over
these type of issues in elections.
>
> In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man
does
> not have to.
I'm pretty sure he got off too easy, but at least we don't have to pay for
him any more. As far as Jesus forgiving him goes, I can't say whether he
will or not, but if the priest repented then he will be forgiven (by God).
Nitespark
Chris Guynn wrote:
>
> Precisely my point. Thanks for saying it better than I did.
>
>
>>Probably the biggest deterrent is the knowledge the WILL be caught and
>>when they are, they WILL be dealt with harshly. Criminals that commit
>>crimes against kids have a VERY tough time in prison.
>
>
> Too bad the deterrent doesn't work better. Of course that could be said
> until the crimes were completely wiped out...
I am no psychologist but have gone through quite a bit of training and
education in this topic. My best guess, is the hardcore that keep doing
it do not consider the possibility of getting caught. Most likely, the
possibility of getting caught is a deterrent for the vast majority of
pedophiles....its the small percentage that think they are too smart, or
have been doing it so long they feel they have beat the system.
>
>
>>Good question. My personal opinion...HELL NO!!! Unless it can be
>>proved the victims lied and made the entire episodes up....but I think
>>in this case, it was multiple victims on multiple occassions. That is
>>much harder to fabricate than a "one victim, one incident" scenario.
>
>
> I have mixed feelings about this. A verdict of Not Guilty really only means
> that the prosecution couldn't prove their case. It doesn't mean he didn't
> do it; although, for most intents and purposes, a verdict of not guilty is
> viewed (by many) the same as innocent. I'm not sure what the legal
> ramifications are, but I would guess that if he is found not guilty it would
> be hard to justify not re-hiring him simply because he had been accused. On
> the other hand, I wouldn't want my kid going to school there and I
> especially wouldn't want my kid to be in his class.
I agree with you. In that situation, the school system would be caught
between the technicalities of the law and the moral obligation for what
is best for the students. They would be in an almost no win situation.
If the employee were found not guilty because of some technicality and
pushed the issue to be returned to employment, he could sue the school
system if they didn't claiming wrongful termination. However, if they
took him back, and he accosted some kids (again), the kids family could
sue for negligent retention.
As I said earlier, unless it is proven conclusively, the kids totally
lied and fabricated the story, then the person should not be returned to
employment....but then that is just my opinion.
>
>
--
More people died at Chappaquiddick than have been killed by my guns.
de Valois
up:
>
>>I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I think his
>>real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail under that
>> dark cloud.
>
>He DID live the rest of his life in jail under that dark cloud.
>
>While I agree with you, confinement for the rest of his natural life
>would have been appropriate punishment for molesting kids, I shed no
>tears at his demise.
Nor will I, for very personal reasons.
>My comment was NOT meant as much as an opinion on how appropriate the
>punishment, as much as we can now absolutely guarantee that HE will
>never commit that crime, or any crime again.
>
>I have dealt with situations where the death penalty was quite appropriate.
>
Agreed. While it's not appropriate to turn this into a thread about the death
penalty, I just couldn't come up with a better way of expressing my thoughts,
which are conflicted on this issue of his death.
>> In other words, I think he got off too easy. Jesus will forgive him. Man does
>> not have to.
>
>Jesus will forgive him and died for his sins. God will sit in judgement.
Tao te Carl
Chris Guynn
<snip>
> I am no psychologist but have gone through quite a bit of training and
> education in this topic. My best guess, is the hardcore that keep doing
> it do not consider the possibility of getting caught. Most likely, the
> possibility of getting caught is a deterrent for the vast majority of
> pedophiles....its the small percentage that think they are too smart, or
> have been doing it so long they feel they have beat the system.
You're probably right.
> I agree with you. In that situation, the school system would be caught
> between the technicalities of the law and the moral obligation for what
> is best for the students. They would be in an almost no win situation.
> If the employee were found not guilty because of some technicality and
> pushed the issue to be returned to employment, he could sue the school
> system if they didn't claiming wrongful termination. However, if they
> took him back, and he accosted some kids (again), the kids family could
> sue for negligent retention.
I bet the wrongful termination suit would cost less than the negligent
retention... I'd leave the guy canned. Not becaue of the expected payout in
case of suits, but because of the more obvious reasons. I'd rather this guy
not work for me than have a kid get molested. Although, I wouldn't let the
case affect my decision if I weren't involved in a child-intensive industry.
C Guynn
Chris Guynn
> Nitespark left this mess on Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:01:07 -0400 for The Way to
clean
> up:
> >
> >>I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for a crime. In this case, I
think his
> >>real punishment would have been to live the rest of his life in jail
under that
> >> dark cloud.
> >
> >He DID live the rest of his life in jail under that dark cloud.
> >
> >While I agree with you, confinement for the rest of his natural life
> >would have been appropriate punishment for molesting kids, I shed no
> >tears at his demise.
>
> Nor will I, for very personal reasons.
>
> >My comment was NOT meant as much as an opinion on how appropriate the
> >punishment, as much as we can now absolutely guarantee that HE will
> >never commit that crime, or any crime again.
> >
> >I have dealt with situations where the death penalty was quite
appropriate.
> >
>
> Agreed. While it's not appropriate to turn this into a thread about the
death
> penalty, I just couldn't come up with a better way of expressing my
thoughts,
> which are conflicted on this issue of his death.
This is rec.scuba... pretty much anything is appropriate except spam. ;-)
C Guynn
Nitespark
Chris Guynn wrote:
>>I agree with you. In that situation, the school system would be caught
>>between the technicalities of the law and the moral obligation for what
>>is best for the students. They would be in an almost no win situation.
>> If the employee were found not guilty because of some technicality and
>>pushed the issue to be returned to employment, he could sue the school
>>system if they didn't claiming wrongful termination. However, if they
>>took him back, and he accosted some kids (again), the kids family could
>>sue for negligent retention.
>
>
> I bet the wrongful termination suit would cost less than the negligent
> retention... I'd leave the guy canned. Not becaue of the expected payout in
> case of suits, but because of the more obvious reasons. I'd rather this guy
> not work for me than have a kid get molested. Although, I wouldn't let the
> case affect my decision if I weren't involved in a child-intensive industry.
I am with you on this. The welfare of the kids comes first. The only
other alternative would be for them to "make a job" for him in some
capacity where he doesn't have any contact with kids....night janitor
working 2300-0700 or something like that. He could grieve a
termination, but he cannot grieve his assigned duties or work hours.
Jer
He wasn't beaten to death, he slipped on a bar of soap - six times.
--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur
Lee Bell
> > lockup, one guy managed to kill him by beating him to death...
<evil-grin>
Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord. Nobody promised that it would not be
delivered by Buba.
Lee
rnf2
he could grieve his assigned duties.
Promote him to twice the duties, on the same paycheck, in an office with the
door where the receptionist can see he doesn't leave it, and feed him
nothing but paperwork, and never give him a rise.
"Nitespark" <nite...@h8spam.cox.net> wrote in message
news:rP3cb.3011$k74.2780@lakeread05...
Steve Barlow
>If he is a Masters of Business teaching Accounting and Head of Department,
>he could grieve his assigned duties.
>
>Promote him to twice the duties, on the same paycheck, in an office with the
>door where the receptionist can see he doesn't leave it, and feed him
>nothing but paperwork, and never give him a rise.
>
Then he could leave and claim Constructive dismissal.
Which if proved could lead to his reinstatement and to being in a
worse position :-((
--
Steve Barlow
Joe
I guess you lost your faith un di juicestiuice suiystem.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:08 -0700, "Greg Mossman" <mos...@qnet.com>
wrote:
>"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:1d7ab.30269$NM1...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>> Son of a bitch. It's not like the BSA hasn't had enough bad to say about
>> gays in the organization without adding this to the mix. I certainly how
>> that this is all wrong, that the accusations were a joke or in retaliation
>> for some earlier slight. Somehow, however, I suspect is isn't.
>
>Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
>two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
>old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my friends
>when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
>with him ourselves.
>
>
Scott
<Joe> wrote in message news:grpok0tdqhnkhbbss...@4ax.com...
> >Interesting that he fondled all four. You'd think after the first one or
> >two, the others would have reacted. After all, they were 14 and 15 years
> >old and there were four of them. If someone did that to me and my
friends
> >when I was that age, the guy wouldn't have been arrested, we'd have dealt
> >with him ourselves.
And been out of jail by 18, with the comfort of knowing that you rid the
earth of his shadow.
Dillon Pyron
He fell down a flight of stairs.
We were just fooling around and I accidentally hit him with the
baseball bat.
He said the gun was unloaded and was going to prove it.
He said to throw him the knife and I'm too young to know not to take
it literally.
--
dillon
When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.
Scott
news:e06pk01b8dsfs9qt0...@4ax.com...
> He fell down a flight of stairs.
>
> We were just fooling around and I accidentally hit him with the
> baseball bat.
>
> He said the gun was unloaded and was going to prove it.
>
> He said to throw him the knife and I'm too young to know not to take
> it literally.
Remember Sister Mary Elephant?
He fell several times onto a large fist-shaped rock...
Or, as we were instructed in basic;
"You catch a fucker stealing, you holler THIEF at the top of your lungs.
I'll take my time getting there, and wont see anything when I arrive."