Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing porcupine fish
newz
porcupine fish
david
sounds like the puffer fish will be left alone as they should have been to
start with. making puffer fish blow up is not goog for them.
puffers 1 diver 0
:-)
david
"david" <i...@fedup.com> wrote in message
news:bpvdgo$mvo$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
goog is a new spelling for good sorry ;-)
Jer
ROFLMAO!!
Imagine that, an act of stupidity that didn't kill the offender. Poor
little fishie, all he/she got was part of a finger - and through a glove
no less. Gloves? What th...? I'M TELLIN MOM!!!
--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur
gjw
Well in a way I feel sorry for the guy losing part of his twinky, but it
was is own fault. As divers/snorkelers we should learn to observe marine
life and habitat, and not go around harassing or touching any of the
creatures we encounter while in the water.
;-> gjw
Francis Phillips
"gjw" <g...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:3fc35045$1...@news.bluewin.ch...
Lee Bell
It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for
them?
This guy obviously was not watching what he was doing. Puffers are one of
the few fish that swim slow enough to be caught by hand. He paid a rather
significant price for his mistake.
Lee
Salty
> > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
According to the story, he didn't make the puffer blow up. He wiggled
his fingers in front of it while it was boxed into a hole with no
means of escape. Seems like he choose a silly thing to do... and it's
very different from making a puffer blow up in open water.
**Ken Kurtis, if you're reading this - just hush...and have a nice
Thanksgiving. :)
david
> It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for
> them?
hope your reading this from uk.rec.scuba Lee ......
I don't know why its bad for them. I started diving in New Zealand about 15
years ago
allot of my diving has been in warmer waters, some where some one told me
it is in fact
not natural for them to blow up it is a last resort to save themselves.
abit like jumping out of a ten story building to save your self from getting
burnt to death in a fire !!!
But I would like to know the truth does any one know if harassing a puffer
fish causes them any harm
Regards David
Alan Shepard's Tiny Penis
C'mon Leeg! "bad" and "goog" are not antonymous and you damn well
know it (or my name isn't "Alan Shepard's tiny penig"!)
But seriously, regarding the issue of whether our esteemed and
self-inflating underwater citizen felt insulted by the game show jerk
who borrowed his stupid "let's play with the puffer fish" act from
Manny Puig, the missing finger would indicate injury naturally
followed from insult (STOP POINTING YOUR FUCKING FINGER IN MY FACE
ASSHOLE--I'M NOT YOUR UNDERWATER VOLLEYBALL!).
Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault
rap--NO?
Alun Harford
> puffer fish inflating
>
> > It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for
> > them?
> hope your reading this from uk.rec.scuba Lee ......
>
> I don't know why its bad for them. I started diving in New Zealand about
15
> years ago
> allot of my diving has been in warmer waters, some where some one told
me
> it is in fact
> not natural for them to blow up it is a last resort to save themselves.
>
> abit like jumping out of a ten story building to save your self from
getting
> burnt to death in a fire !!!
What's wrong with jumping out of a ten story building? It's perfectly fine
if you're on the ground floor.
Alun Harford
de Valois
>
>newz wrote:
>> Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing
>> porcupine fish
>>
>> http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
>
>
>ROFLMAO!!
>
>Imagine that, an act of stupidity that didn't kill the offender. Poor
>little fishie, all he/she got was part of a finger - and through a glove
>no less. Gloves? What th...? I'M TELLIN MOM!!!
>
I'm surprised Scuba Booby covered it, there being no death attributed to PADI or
Rodales and all...
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
NoJags Neil
"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:S_Iwb.21421$Wy4....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "david" <i...@fedup.com> wrote in message
> news:bpvdgo$mvo$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
> >
> > sounds like the puffer fish will be left alone as they should have been
> to
> > start with. making puffer fish blow up is not goog for them.
> >
> > puffers 1 diver 0
>
> It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for
> them?
>
I know somebody who keeps one in a tank and he also said that it's bad for
them.
chilly
"newz" <Ne...@scuba.newz> wrote in message
news:3fc32f40$0$27767$45be...@newscene.com...
> Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing
> porcupine fish
>
Hey, Dan V! Did you see this article in the South Palm Beach Post?
Thinking of you. ;^)
Tricky
> But I would like to know the truth does any one know if harassing a
puffer
> fish causes them any harm
>
> Regards David
>
Yes it does, it's a stress reaction. I've kept porcupine puffers in
captivity before, and the last thing that you wish for them to do is 'puff'.
The more a fish becomes stressed, the lower it's immune system becomes to
pathogens. It's the same with any fish in general, they're not used to
human interaction / predation.
They also release a mucus coating from their skin which is toxic. Obviously
in open water this is diluted by billions of gallons of sea water. In an
aquarium it's a different matter and usually cause the death of everything
else in the tank!
Dan Volker
"chilly" <sla...@shaw.canada> wrote in message
news:P3Lwb.497252$9l5.299711@pd7tw2no...
As Jack would say, hahaha :-)
About 20 years ago, a friend of mine, underwater videographer Art Waters,
shot a diver grabbing a big puffer fish, then tucking it under his arm like
a football.
The video then shoes the puffer fish bite down on the roll of fat the diver
had on his lower torso, this to be followed by the diver frantically
attempting to dislodge the annoyed ( or hungry) puffer fish.
Several stitches and a nasty scar later, left that diver embarrassed, and
it left me happy I could learn by someone else's misfortune ;-)
I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its
"predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as the
evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-)
Regards,
Dan V.
Chris Guynn
"newz" <Ne...@scuba.newz> wrote in message
news:3fc32f40$0$27767$45be...@newscene.com...
> porcupine fish
>
> http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
Did anybody else go to the dive shops website? I was hoping to get a little
more information, but was sadly disappointed on that front. However, I was
somewhat surprised by a picture at
http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/divereport.html. The 3rd from the last
picture has a guy with a minimum of 8 tanks (4 sets of doubles). Maybe this
is standard procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before. Makes my
single 80 look kinda puny...
gjw
"Mad Puffer Fish Attacks Diver" when it was him harassing the puffer.....
:-> gjw
e-mail (replace , with a .)
Alun Harford
news:3fc3a936$1...@news.bluewin.ch...
> What is it with this guy? On his website he writes up the story about the
> "Mad Puffer Fish Attacks Diver" when it was him harassing the puffer.....
"I first touched the fish on the head to get him to come out of the hole.
Since the area is known to be a regular hangout for Bull sharks, this guy
was not budging. Sharks like to eat blowfish. Persistently, I waggled my
hand in front of his face acting like food."
Oh dear.
Alun Harford
Alun Harford
news:4uNwb.32$WO7.19...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/newsletter/Mad%20Puffer%20Fish%20Attacks%20Diver.htm
gjw
forgot 2 include the link to the story from the guys website:
http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/newsletter/Mad%20Puffer%20Fish%20Attacks%20Diver.htm
:-> gjw
e-mail (replace , with a .)
"gjw" <gjw@mindless,com> wrote in message
news:3fc3a936$1...@news.bluewin.ch...
Chris Guynn
"Alun Harford" <alunh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bq0ar7$hfo$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
Yeah, I found that, but it didn't really tell me anything more than the
article.
Grumman-581
> The 3rd from the last picture has a guy with a minimum
> of 8 tanks (4 sets of doubles). Maybe this is standard
> procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before.
> Makes my single 80 look kinda puny...
Does he actually swim those around or is it more of an aid to ensure that he
accomplishes the drift dives at the same speed as the current? <grin>
rnf2
"Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RyPwb.39432$do1....@twister.austin.rr.com...
I would have thought it was an aid in getting down... I wonder how much of
the air he carries goes into his BCD?
;)
rhys
Jerome O'Neil
> them?
The physical act of puffing up isn't bad for them, but deliberately
stressing them to get them to puff is.
> He paid a rather significant price for his mistake.
Good score for the fish.
--
Submergo ergo sum
Simon Dakin
I asked the fish department at the Australian Museum whether inflating
puffer fish was bad for them:
http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/puffup.htm
Simon
uwattimes
> Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing
> porcupine fish
>
> http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
Old news again from Scuba Booby? Well he/she/it is the king/queen of
put someone else's news up as his/her own.
Greg Mossman
news:bpvn4...@drn.newsguy.com...
> I'm surprised Scuba Booby covered it, there being no death attributed to
PADI or
> Rodales and all...
Au contraire:
"Jupiter Dive Center is a P.A.D.I. training facility."
-- http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/training.html
Greg Mossman
news:XSMwb.9238$e8....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its
> "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as
the
> evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-)
Yeah, yeah. You just don't get bit 'cause your fins are so damn long the
poor puffer thinks you're a whale shark.
Rheilly Phoull
"uwattimes" <sumog...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61ab1d90.0311...@posting.google.com...
Just wonderin' , do the puffer fish use finger bowls ??
--
Regards ............... Rheilly Phoull
Lee Bell
> rap--NO?
I only investigate the financial side of crimes. Assault is a bit out of my
area of expertise. It sounds like justifiable pinkie-side to me, but what
do I know.
Lee
Lee Bell
> I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its
> "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as
the
> evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-)
You and me both. I'm gentle with them and, these days, only pick on the
really impressive ones, those that grow to basketball size. I must admit
that I've always known enough to gently cradle them from the sides, keeping
hands and other parts clear of their jaws. Just about everything will bite
to get free and you don't have to be real observant to notice the puffer's
beak like teeth or to figure out how much damage they might do.
Lee
Lee Bell
> Did anybody else go to the dive shops website? I was hoping to get a
little
> more information, but was sadly disappointed on that front. However, I
was
> somewhat surprised by a picture at
> http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/divereport.html. The 3rd from the last
> picture has a guy with a minimum of 8 tanks (4 sets of doubles). Maybe
this
> is standard procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before. Makes my
> single 80 look kinda puny...
Damn. As near as I can tell, he isn't wearing a drysuit either. I'll bet
he had no trouble getting down. At least he's wearing good fins.
Lee
Lee Bell
> I don't know why its bad for them. I started diving in New Zealand about
15
> years ago allot of my diving has been in warmer waters, some where some
one told me
> it is in fact not natural for them to blow up it is a last resort to save
themselves.
I think just about everybody has heard stories that suggest puffers die
after only a few cycles. To the best of my knowledge, it's just another
story that went further and further from the truth as it was repeated.
> But I would like to know the truth does any one know if harassing a
puffer
> fish causes them any harm
I don't think there's much doubt that capturing a puffer so that he inflates
is stressful for the fish, but I've never seen one that was released that
did not appear to return to normal behavior very quickly after being
released.
Lee
Lee Bell
> I know somebody who keeps one in a tank and he also said that it's bad for
> them.
Considering the fact that keeping one in a tank is probably one of the worst
things you can do to one, I think I'd look for a more credible source on
this one.
Lee
rnf2
"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote
Getting chased by a slavering dog isn't good for you... all that andrenalin,
yet you don't die after being chased a few times. why should a fish?
rhys
chilly
"Dan Volker" <dvo...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:XSMwb.9238$e8....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> news:P3Lwb.497252$9l5.299711@pd7tw2no...
> > Thinking of you. ;^)
> >
>
> As Jack would say, hahaha :-)
Geez, let's not talk about that guy. "haha"
>
> About 20 years ago, a friend of mine, underwater videographer Art Waters,
> shot a diver grabbing a big puffer fish, then tucking it under his arm
like
> a football.
> The video then shoes the puffer fish bite down on the roll of fat the
diver
> had on his lower torso, this to be followed by the diver frantically
> attempting to dislodge the annoyed ( or hungry) puffer fish.
> Several stitches and a nasty scar later, left that diver embarrassed, and
> it left me happy I could learn by someone else's misfortune ;-)
And what was it that you learned by someone else's misfortune? Not to tuck
it under your arm? :^P
>
> I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its
> "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as
the
> evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-)
LOL, very DIR. (just a joke, my friend)
But this is not: "Is(sic) is clear from a recent study that the power of
inflating has dramatic effects on blood circulation (due to the increased
internal pressure) and on digestion (due to the stomach change in volume),
and it is therefore the last resource, that a puffer fish can use for a
limited number of times (7 to 12), to avoid death. For this reason we invite
all the divers to not provoke puffer fish "inflation": this means a useless
stress for the fish, that significantly reduces its life span." The quote
was taken from: www.edge-of-reef.com
So be careful out there boys and girls and respect the environment and its
inhabitants that occasionally tolerate our presence.
Lee Bell
> Getting chased by a slavering dog isn't good for you... all that
andrenalin,
> yet you don't die after being chased a few times. why should a fish?
Hey, exercise is good for all of us.
My normal state is not being chased by things large enough to eat me. A
puffer's normal state is being chased by things large enough to eat them. I
don't have a natural defense system that is an alternative to fight or
flight. A puffer does.
Lee
david
> I asked the fish department at the Australian Museum whether inflating
> puffer fish was bad for them:
>
> http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/puffup.htm
>
> Simon
>
Thanks Simon that seems to sort it then No inflating Puffers While still on
the dive boat. no really it is not a good idea to prod or poke
anything under water. every one will only laugh when the unexpected
happens. like when a mate got bitten by a lobster about 6 inches long
still managed to bring tears to his eyes and blood.... his own fault...
Regard David
Lee Bell
on
> the dive boat. no really it is not a good idea to prod or poke
> anything under water. every one will only laugh when the unexpected
> happens. like when a mate got bitten by a lobster about 6 inches long
> still managed to bring tears to his eyes and blood.... his own fault...
If you're going to be stupid, you need to be tough.
Lee
jameshunt
Just how long did you monitor these fish once released? Did they live
as long as they would have without interference?
> Getting chased by a slavering dog isn't good for you... all that
> andrenalin, yet you don't die after being chased a few times. why
> should a fish?
Now there's logic for you. A dog = a fish. Are fish warm blooded as
well?
Hmmm.
> rhys
David
Chris Guynn
So, you mean that isn't a normal configuration? I thought maybe it was like
DIR^3 or something.
Chris Guynn
Hey guys, I think I figured it out... it's an underwater filling station.
Just turn off your valve, disconnect your regulators (don't forget to
replace the rubber caps to keep them dry) and within 10 minutes you can
continue your dive in peace... <eg>
rnf2
"jameshunt" <jame...@nospamyabstard.rocketmail.com>
> Now there's logic for you. A dog = a fish. Are fish warm blooded as
> well?
>
> Hmmm.
>
> David
Someone posted a link to an Aussie Aquarium/underwater research site. that
stated that inflation and deflation doesn't harm the fish, unless it is at
the surface and ingests air.
I'll have a google and see if I can refind the site.
rhys
rnf2
"jameshunt" <jame...@nospamyabstard.rocketmail.com>
>
> David
Bingo, found it, a few posts lower.
> I asked the fish department at the Australian Museum whether inflating
> puffer fish was bad for them:
>
> http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/puffup.htm
>
> Simon
>
the fishes will be fine.
rhys
uwattimes
> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:42:10 GMT, "Lee Bell"
> <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >"david" <i...@fedup.com> wrote in message
> >news:bpvdgo$mvo$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> >> > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
> >>
> >> sounds like the puffer fish will be left alone as they should have been
> to
> >> start with. making puffer fish blow up is not goog for them.
> >>
> >> puffers 1 diver 0
> >
> >them?
> >
> >the few fish that swim slow enough to be caught by hand. He paid a rather
> >significant price for his mistake.
> >
> >
>
> C'mon Leeg! "bad" and "goog" are not antonymous and you damn well
> know it (or my name isn't "Alan Shepard's tiny penig"!)
>
> But seriously, regarding the issue of whether our esteemed and
> self-inflating underwater citizen felt insulted by the game show jerk
> who borrowed his stupid "let's play with the puffer fish" act from
> Manny Puig, the missing finger would indicate injury naturally
> followed from insult (STOP POINTING YOUR FUCKING FINGER IN MY FACE
> ASSHOLE--I'M NOT YOUR UNDERWATER VOLLEYBALL!).
> Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault
> rap--NO?
Scuba Booby continues to sock puppet. What a wimpy boy he is.
rnf2
"Alan Shepard's Tiny Penis" <a...@scubadiving.com> wrote
> (or my name isn't "Alan Shepard's tiny penig"!)
It's not.
rhys
Salty
Lee... I am sitting here smiling because you are the one who got me
into the awful practice of puffing puffers. Ever since that dive that
you and I did 2 summers ago where you puffed one and then 'passed' the
little rascle to me, I've been hooked on puffing them up. On my last
trip to Sea of Cortez, I was puffing them up with wild abandon on
every dive, puffing up 2 or 3 or 4 of them on each dive and trying to
pass them to fellow divers like you did with me. Someone took a
close-up pic of me doing this and I'll have to send ya the pic.
Anyways... Ken and a few others dubbed me a fish molester and yelled
at me for doing this, saying the same thing that we all tend to
hear..."The puffers are being over-taxed if you puff them." About a
week after our trip, Ken was doing his duties as a diver in the
aquarium and got bit hard by a puffer while trying to feed them. I
told him that he just doesn't know how to handle puffers. He was not
amused at all.
I agree with you that they are not going to bite when you puff them if
you cradle their sides. You are the one who taught me that fine
technique !! Also, I think you need to keep your hands a certain
distance from them when they are puffed because the spines will stick
you otherwise. What I learned from you is that it's a 'touch-release,
touch-release" kind of thing when you handle them. Anyone who is fool
enough to grab one and hold on to it will either get stuck or get bit.
The thing with Ken getting bit was that the fish didn't honor his
finger apart from the food Ken was offering it and I guess that Ken
wasn't fast enough for some reason, which is weird since he's been
feeding them at the aquarium for many, many years and he's very
experienced. My joke to him about handling puffers was really just a
joke 'cause he certainly knows what he's doing. However, the feeding
motion and the cradling motion are NOT the same... your hands /
fingers are in a very different position for each.
Now... as per to this story about the Instructor, the guy had a puffer
cornered in a hole. He waved his fingers in front of the fish's mouth
and the fish had no way of escaping. That is the ultimate in stupidity
for a diver. I've seen ppl come onto the front of a nurse shark and
stick their hand up to the shark, not even bothering to see if the
shark had room to back up or move to the side or escape any other way.
They think a nurse shark is docile and never bites. Guess again !!
I've also seen ppl like Mike Gray and Ken Kurtis be able to pet
/scratch big eels under their chins. Mike and Ken are able to do this
because : 1) They have balls. 2) They make sure the eel is not trapped
and feeling threatened by their presence. IOW, they are looking at the
situation they are placing the animal in before they get that close to
the animal.
It doesn't take much common sense to realize that any animal,
including a human, will attack when it feels it has no escape.
Therefore, sticking your fingers in front of a puffer who can't back
up is not a smart move. NFTM, I don't think that making a puffer puff
up is any different than making your dog play a hard aggressive game
with you. The reflexes to survive are not taxing... they are there for
a purpose. The purpose is to protect and that reflex will act up when
needed and go away when not needed. If it were all that taxing, the
animal would drop dead during the process. In the case of puffers,
they don't...they swim away. And... I must say that I came across my
biggest challenge this past dive trip when one puffer didn't puff. He
simply looked at me like..."Go ahead, I dare ya." I cradled him for a
long while and he didn't care. He didn't puff up. He was gonna bite me
if he could. He wasn't afraid of me at all. <big grin>
chilly
"Salty" <babet...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e673a058.03112...@posting.google.com...
> "Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:<kTVwb.22288$Wy4....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
>
> into the awful practice of puffing puffers.
(snip) For shame, for shame, you two. I repeat the quote I made to Dan V.:
rwjg40
>
> "david" <i...@fedup.com> wrote in message
> news:bpvdgo$mvo$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
> >
> > sounds like the puffer fish will be left alone as they should have been
> to
> > start with. making puffer fish blow up is not goog for them.
> >
> > puffers 1 diver 0
>
> It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for
> them?
I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is very
stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just
because it's a natural thing for them to do doesn't mean it's not a
tradeoff.
Gordon in Austin
--
POPI Classification
[ ]General Business Information
[x]Motorola Internal Use
[ ]Motorola Confidential Proprietary
rnf2
"chilly" <sla...@shaw.canada> wrote in message
"The inflation of porcupinefishes is a defence measure, and as such there is
no limit to the number of times an individual can inflate (and deflate). If
the fish inflates at the surface, it is likely to ingest air. Air can be
difficult to expel, and can lead to death of the fish as the fish floats and
cannot leave the surface. However, if the fish inflates under water, it
ingests only water and has no problem deflating once the danger has passed.
Perhaps your friend was told the story about a limited number of inflations
by someone with good conservation motives, in an effort to influence divers
to not hassle fish in order to see them inflate.
I hope this answers your question"
further reading is in a properly published peer reviewed scientific journal.
not a divemasters anecdote. Whats the study refered to by the edge-of-reef
chaps?
Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of
Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal of
Morphology 220: 243-261
rhys
chilly
"rnf2" <rn...@NOSPAMwaikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3fc5...@news.iconz.co.nz...
Frankly, I was somewhat disturbed that they had not noted that. Now, of
course, I shall have to email them and get that info.
>
> Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of
> Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal
of
> Morphology 220: 243-261
Interesting. 1994, could be a dated study. :^)
My search shall continue. I am passionate about this, there can be no
question that stress shortens our life spans as human beings. It is likely
that stress shortens the life span of any animal or creature and therefore,
I shall remain undaunted in my attempts to encourage other divers to
discontinue this practice. If nothing else, it is just plain mean.
Salty
> (snip) For shame, for shame, you two. I repeat the quote I made to Dan V.:
>
> "Is(sic) is clear from a recent study that the power of
> inflating has dramatic effects on blood circulation (due to the increased
> internal pressure) and on digestion (due to the stomach change in volume),
> and it is therefore the last resource, that a puffer fish can use for a
> limited number of times (7 to 12), to avoid death. For this reason we invite
> all the divers to not provoke puffer fish "inflation": this means a useless
> stress for the fish, that significantly reduces its life span." The quote
> was taken from: www.edge-of-reef.com
>
> So be careful out there boys and girls and respect the environment and its
> inhabitants that occasionally tolerate our presence.
Hmmm. Well... after reading what chilly bean said here, I must say
that I am not happy. If the stuff in the quote she sites is true,
then I am ashamed of myself for puffing up puffers. :( I must say
that I thought the 'puffer response' was no more than the "fight or
flight syndrome" for humans and other animals... ie. something that
would kick in when needed and not something that is harmful to the
animal or in a limited supply. With so many ppl saying that it's a
'no-no", I think I should investigate further before I touch another
puffer.
rnf2
Another study mentioned in an Aussie site, in a peer reviewed scientific
journal says there is no harm to the puffer. Chillies emailing the
reefers(sic) to see where their info comes from. Admittedly my reference was
to a '94 study, and I pinched it from a uk.rec.scuba branch of this thread
that had the cross posting cut out so it wasn't reflected here in rec.scuba
rhys
Greg Mossman
> My search shall continue. I am passionate about this, there can be no
> question that stress shortens our life spans as human beings. It is
likely
> that stress shortens the life span of any animal or creature and
therefore,
> I shall remain undaunted in my attempts to encourage other divers to
> discontinue this practice. If nothing else, it is just plain mean.
Not any meaner than puffing up divers. I love to sneak up on the jerks
puffing up the puffer fish, grab their inflator, and puff them up. It's a
hoot watching their expression as they rocket to the surface.
Greg Mossman
news:e673a058.03112...@posting.google.com...
> Hmmm. Well... after reading what chilly bean said here, I must say
> that I am not happy. If the stuff in the quote she sites is true,
> then I am ashamed of myself for puffing up puffers. :( I must say
> that I thought the 'puffer response' was no more than the "fight or
> flight syndrome" for humans and other animals... ie. something that
> would kick in when needed and not something that is harmful to the
> animal or in a limited supply. With so many ppl saying that it's a
> 'no-no", I think I should investigate further before I touch another
> puffer.
I thought that puffing puffers was a recognized no-no, along the lines of
touching coral and catching rides with turtles and mantas. Frankly I'm
shocked.
chilly
>
> further reading is in a properly published peer reviewed scientific
journal.
> not a divemasters anecdote. Whats the study refered to by the
edge-of-reef
> chaps?
I will also note at this time that the authors of the quote I provided are
both marine biologists. One of which took part in research projects with
Genoa and Cagliari Universities, with ICRAM and Ustica marine park. He also
worked at the Genoa Aquarium. Presently he coordinates from Manado the
bioDIVERsity project, a cooperation project between Manado, Ancona and Genoa
Universities. The other marine biologist took part in research projects
with Genoa and Cagliari Universities, with Ustica marine park. She also
worked at the Genoa Aquarium and presently co-operates in the Manado with
the bioDIVERsity project.
chilly
journal.
> not a divemasters anecdote. Whats the study refered to by the
edge-of-reef
> chaps?
I will also note at this time that the authors of the quote I provided are
both marine biologists. One of which took part in research projects with
Genoa and Cagliari Universities, with ICRAM and Ustica marine park. He also
worked at the Genoa Aquarium. Presently he coordinates from Manado the
bioDIVERsity project, a cooperation project between Manado, Ancona and Genoa
Universities. The other marine biologist took part in research projects
with Genoa and Cagliari Universities, with Ustica marine park. She also
worked at the Genoa Aquarium and presently co-operates in the Manado with
the bioDIVERsity project.
Therefore, it should be noted that it is not just DM anecdotal.
david
The coral was getting damaged but the divers knew better.Feeding sharks
Wrasse and just about any other critter that would stand and
put on a good display. The padi bunch verses the besc verses the rest of the
world.
What is wrong with leaving the poor puffer fish alone even if it doesn't
cause it any harm it must piss them off a bit. I would like to see the
front of a puffer not its tail as it swims away because some macho diver
Fxxked with it last week. Next your going to say have sex with children
don't hurt them.................
cant be bothered with this
Zak
"Francis Phillips" <Francis_...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bpvkdg$q9a$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
> Obviously I totally agree unless you intend to eat it......
>
>
> "gjw" <g...@mindless.com> wrote in message
> news:3fc35045$1...@news.bluewin.ch...
> > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html
> >
> > Well in a way I feel sorry for the guy losing part of his twinky, but
it
> > was is own fault. As divers/snorkelers we should learn to observe marine
> > life and habitat, and not go around harassing or touching any of the
> > creatures we encounter while in the water.
> >
> > ;-> gjw
Frank... think "fugu"..... :(
rnf2
"chilly" <sla...@shaw.canada> wrote
Fair enough.
Jer
> Not any meaner than puffing up divers. I love to sneak up on the jerks
> puffing up the puffer fish, grab their inflator, and puff them up. It's a
> hoot watching their expression as they rocket to the surface.
(chuckle)
Lends a whole new meaning to "Big Eye" don't it? :))
--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur
Alan Shepard's Tiny Penis
Alan Shepard's Tiny Penis
<lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault
>> rap--NO?
>
>I only investigate the financial side of crimes. Assault is a bit out of my
>area of expertise. It sounds like justifiable pinkie-side to me, but what
>do I know.
>
>Lee
>
But is there any legal precedent for justiafiable pinkie-side and if
so, would that preclude a civil case to recover damages on behalf of a
diving instructor forced into early retirement because he can no
longer count past nine? After all, the assault took place in FKNMS
waters, it was not a posted "DO NOT PUT YOUR FINGER IN THE MOUTH OF
WILD ANIMALS" dive site, and according to Carl Hiaasen's official web
site, Billy Causey does not wear underwear .
rnf2
"Alan Shepard's Tiny Penis" <a...@scubadiving.com> wrote in message
news:dfcfba650ffc110e...@news.teranews.com...
I think the spelling should be Pinkie-cide not pinkie-side. after all,
homi-cide is not homi-side.
rhys
chilly
>
> >
> > But is there any legal precedent for justiafiable pinkie-side and if
> > so, would that preclude a civil case to recover damages on behalf of a
> > diving instructor forced into early retirement because he can no
> > longer count past nine? After all, the assault took place in FKNMS
> > waters, it was not a posted "DO NOT PUT YOUR FINGER IN THE MOUTH OF
> > WILD ANIMALS" dive site, and according to Carl Hiaasen's official web
> > site, Billy Causey does not wear underwear .
>
> I think the spelling should be Pinkie-cide not pinkie-side. after all,
> homi-cide is not homi-side.
well, maybe it's homey-side. You know, having a homey, by your side.
chilly
>
> cant be bothered with this
Good. Then that will probably be the last we will hear from you on this . .
.
Alan Shepard's Tiny Penis
wrote:
>
Poetic license leaves ample opportunity to wiggle your linguistic
pinkie, however, your reckless juxtaposition of "pinkie-side" and
"homi-cide" puts you at risk of being accused of overkill after
fingering the wrong consonant. After all, 'cide' (from 'caedere'
meaning to slay, to kill) clearly refers to death as in homicide,
suicide, fratricide, insecticide, etc. In this case, death did not
occur, therefore Inspector Bell's choice of 's' rather than 'c' would
seem most appropriate for the mere loss of the diver's pinkie rather
than his life.
Or the life of his brother by his own hand.
'My fault is past. But O, what form of prayer
Can serve my turn? "Forgive me my foul murder"?
That cannot be, since I am still possess'd
Of those effects for which I did the murder,
My crown, mine own ambition, and my queen.'
Now that's the stuff that homicide, fratricide and regicide are made
of.
Professor Not
rnf2
It sure killed the poor lil pinkie. and cide in juxaposition to pinkie
suggests the cide of a pinkie just as cide in juxaposition to homi suggests
the cide of an entire homi.
rhys <= can logic-cide with the best.
Salty
Well... hmm. I would never try to catch a ride on a manta or a turtle.
I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a
manta because they are just a bit too big for me to be messing with
but I have touched / petted smaller rays. I have experienced that
both turtles and rays actually seem to like to be petted. Perhaps it
feels like grooming to them. I try to watch so that I don't kick or
grab coral but if I need to so that I can pause to watch something,
I'll use the 'one finger' technique. I like to handle animals while
diving and puffers fit into that catagory.
Salty
> Another study mentioned in an Aussie site, in a peer reviewed scientific
> journal says there is no harm to the puffer. Chillies emailing the
> reefers(sic) to see where their info comes from. Admittedly my reference was
> to a '94 study, and I pinched it from a uk.rec.scuba branch of this thread
> that had the cross posting cut out so it wasn't reflected here in rec.scuba
I see that post. Perhaps some of us here will be able to come up with
other info on the topic. :)
Greg Mossman
news:e673a058.03112...@posting.google.com...
> Well... hmm. I would never try to catch a ride on a manta or a turtle.
> I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a
> manta because they are just a bit too big for me to be messing with
> but I have touched / petted smaller rays. I have experienced that
> both turtles and rays actually seem to like to be petted. Perhaps it
> feels like grooming to them. I try to watch so that I don't kick or
> grab coral but if I need to so that I can pause to watch something,
> I'll use the 'one finger' technique. I like to handle animals while
> diving and puffers fit into that catagory.
It's claimed that many underwater species have a protective mucus coating
which is disturbed by a diver's touch, potentially harming the animal - this
is the reason given by many dive operations that forbid touching manta rays.
The State of Hawaii claims that touching sea turtles distresses them, so
they ban any turtle touching.
If you want to touch loads of coral, I advise the Tahiti Aggressor.
bie...@optonline.net
Fred
Steve
Salty wrote:
> I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a
> manta because they are just a bit too big for me to be messing with
> but I have touched / petted smaller rays. I have experienced that
> both turtles and rays actually seem to like to be petted.
I've noticed that, too, but I don't think they appreciate it as much as some
critters. If you're ever in Yellowstone, the grizzlies really like to be scratched
behind their ears, and the bison just love to be tickled under the chin. Some
naysayers will tell you to just leave them alone, because it's bad for the animals or
that it's dangerous, but pay them no mind. I guarantee that nobody has ever lost
their pinkie to a grizzly or a bison. The squirrels, OTOH, occasionaly mistake your
pinkie for a peanut, so you should give them a wide berth.
--
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.
If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.
Salty
> It's claimed that many underwater species have a protective mucus coating
> which is disturbed by a diver's touch, potentially harming the animal - this
> is the reason given by many dive operations that forbid touching manta rays.
I have heard that particular reason and a different reason re: mantas.
I heard that Mantas simply can't support someone of human adult size
hanging on to them. I have a feeling that the story about the
protective mucous coating thing is load of crap. Humans touch alot of
species that are at zoos, aquariums, water parks, pet shops, etc.
Those animals end up doing alright. And the species had best be able
to survive something puncturing its "mucus coating" when it lives off
the reef and is banged against the rock and against the other species
living by it.
> The State of Hawaii claims that touching sea turtles distresses them, so
> they ban any turtle touching.
Ok. Cool for them. I've heard that if you hold onto a turtle, it
won't be able to swim properly and it will drown. Never tried it.
Never will.
Now... I'm telling you that I've seen turtles come back for another
touch by me. Ken can tell you this too as he was there with me during
the dive. He was upset that I was petting the turtle during the dive
until he saw that it came back to me during that dive. He was truly
convinced that the turtle liked us when he saw that the same turtle
came back to me on another dive later the next day. That turtle liked
to be played with and petted.
And, when I thought I was going to die off of Kimodo after being swept
2 miles from the boat, there was a turtle who joined me during my
drift dive. He appeared from no where and he stayed with me... just
under me. He stayed with me until I decided to surface and try to make
a go of it. He kept me company IOW.
Also, when I was diving Chinchorro Reef in August, I got to pet a ray.
He stayed with me so long on the bottom that others got to come over
and see him, touch him too. I have a pic of him if you would like to
see. It's a glorious pic because it shows his eyes and they are truly
open and watching. He liked us being there !!!
> If you want to touch loads of coral, I advise the Tahiti Aggressor.
I don't wanna touch loads of coral and I have no desire to go onto an
Aggressor liveaboard. But thanks anyway. I think that the next
liveaboard I do (not counting the Don Jose and such) will be one that
I charter privately. I want to look into this and I think I'd like a
sailboat that I "own" for the week, just hire out the Captain and a
cook, first mate, etc. It's just a matter of where to dive and how
many ppl want to go at this point but I am going to put this kinda
trip together soon. Hey... we could end up being the real life version
of the movie "Captain Ron". Who knows. But I guarantee it will be
fun. <grin>
Salty
> Salty wrote:
>
> > I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a
> > manta because they are just a bit too big for me to be messing with
> > but I have touched / petted smaller rays. I have experienced that
> > both turtles and rays actually seem to like to be petted.
>
> I've noticed that, too, but I don't think they appreciate it as much as some
> critters. If you're ever in Yellowstone, the grizzlies really like to be scratched
> behind their ears, and the bison just love to be tickled under the chin. Some
> naysayers will tell you to just leave them alone, because it's bad for the animals or
> that it's dangerous, but pay them no mind. I guarantee that nobody has ever lost
> their pinkie to a grizzly or a bison. The squirrels, OTOH, occasionaly mistake your
> pinkie for a peanut, so you should give them a wide berth.
You are probably right. I've never met up with a bear in the wild but
they are all over here. We have browns. I often think about it and I
hope that I won't meet one while I walk my dogs in the woods here. The
bears end up south of me and ppl yell and and scream. LOL The
neighborhoods north of me have to do heavy duty trash detail because
the bears break into their trash cans all the time. The grizzlies at
Yellowstone are used to 'ppl food' to the point that they know a bag
of chips sitting on your car seat and will tear open your car to get
to the chips. Cute isnt it ?? The bison here are on a ranch right
around the corner from my house. They can be petted but within a day
or so they are gonna be turned into burgers and steaks. There's a big
bison farm here in Coopersburg, PA and they do a booming business. The
squirrels can be nasty. We used to feed them by hand off my parents
kitchen window and my mom still does that on occassion. They love
cookies... got a sweet tooth, they do !! :)
Greg Mossman
news:e673a058.03112...@posting.google.com...
> Those animals end up doing alright. And the species had best be able
> to survive something puncturing its "mucus coating" when it lives off
> the reef and is banged against the rock and against the other species
> living by it.
I've never seen mantas "bang against rock". Perhaps you've only seen
poor-swimming mantas, not the graceful ones I've seen. Some mantas display
a pinkish sort of rash. I was told that was the direct result of human
contact.
> And, when I thought I was going to die off of Kimodo after being swept
> 2 miles from the boat, there was a turtle who joined me during my
> drift dive. He appeared from no where and he stayed with me... just
> under me. He stayed with me until I decided to surface and try to make
> a go of it. He kept me company IOW.
Uh huh. Just like buzzards and vultures will keep people company as they're
dying from dehydration in a desert and circling sharks keep shipwreck
victims company as they're drowining.
Dan Bracuk, CTHD
resulting in:
:I've never seen mantas "bang against rock". Perhaps you've only seen
:poor-swimming mantas, not the graceful ones I've seen. Some mantas display
:a pinkish sort of rash. I was told that was the direct result of human
:contact.
Coulda been remora contact, which happens a lot more often than human
contact.
Dan Bracuk
If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure.
The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
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Salty
> "Salty" <babet...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e673a058.03112...@posting.google.com...
> > Those animals end up doing alright. And the species had best be able
> > to survive something puncturing its "mucus coating" when it lives off
> > the reef and is banged against the rock and against the other species
> > living by it.
> I've never seen mantas "bang against rock". Perhaps you've only seen
> poor-swimming mantas, not the graceful ones I've seen.
No... this part of my post was unclear. I didn't mean that for mantas
but rather for smaller reef fish. For some reason, after I read your
post, the protective coating that many reef fish 'spin' at nite to
sleep inside is what came to my mind. (And no, I don't touch any of
them when they are in those wrapped up asleep.)
> Some mantas display
> a pinkish sort of rash. I was told that was the direct result of human
> contact.
I don't know about the rash thing. I haven't heard that but I've heard
some ppl say that our gloves are too rough to the touch on many
animals... mantas being one of them IIRC... and that the roughness can
irritate their bodies.
FWIW, I don't wear gloves anymore when I dive in warmer water. I know
that my style of diving is that I like to touch things and be
interactive with the life that I see underwater. I think that I am
better off not wearing gloves because it makes me a bit more cautious
and restrained... and thus probably not as obtrusive as I could be.
> > And, when I thought I was going to die off of Kimodo after being swept
> > 2 miles from the boat, there was a turtle who joined me during my
> > drift dive. He appeared from no where and he stayed with me... just
> > under me. He stayed with me until I decided to surface and try to make
> > a go of it. He kept me company IOW.
> Uh huh. Just like buzzards and vultures will keep people company as they're
> dying from dehydration in a desert and circling sharks keep shipwreck
> victims company as they're drowining.
I know it sounds weird Greg but it happened. It's even a bit more
strange when you consider that the Asians have a god who is in the
form of a turtle. I didn't panic on that dive (which is probably why
I'm alive or at least not injured) but I was very, very frightened,
more so than any time of diving... or probably any other time at all.
There was a voice in my head, my inner self I guess, that was talking
to me the entire time and it was saying things like..."Ohhh shit!!
This is NOT good at all !! This is serious and could be deadly !!
Pay attention !! Think !! Stay calm !! Inflate the BC, inflate !!
Now deflate and head down. Going up too fast, head down !! Sinking,
too deep, inflate, kick harder !!" That kind of stuff was going on in
my head almost the whole time, 16 minutes. But when that turtle showed
up, I felt a very calming effect come over me and I knew that it was
going to be alright. At one point, the turtle was there and then a big
ray of sunlight came thru the surface of the water, lit him up and lit
me up, casting our shadows onto the depths. He just showed up in the
middle of nowhere and stayed swimming underneath me for at least 8
mins. I know how bizarre that sounds. Ok... I'm done now and I'm sure
you're probably ready to have me committed. A size small straight
jacket should probably fit. <grin>
Btw...in case you're wondering... no, I've never seen a UFO, or a
ghost, I don't use rocks to assist with energy forces, I don't have a
pyramid shape that I sit under every day, and my bed faces the south.
Mike Painter
> middle of nowhere and stayed swimming underneath me for at least 8
> mins.
cluster under almost anything.
While snorkeling in Baja I had one about two inches long that spent quite a
while in front of my mask, facing it, about a foot away.
I would make a surface dive, come up in the same vicinity I went down and a
few seconds later it would show up again.
I suspect it is because anything that hunts from below might be confused
because there is no clear silhouette.
Salty
> I've not seen it in turtles but it is common in a lot of fish. They will
> cluster under almost anything.
> While snorkeling in Baja I had one about two inches long that spent quite a
> while in front of my mask, facing it, about a foot away.
> I would make a surface dive, come up in the same vicinity I went down and a
> few seconds later it would show up again.
Hi there Mike !! LTNS, hope you've been doing well. I wonder if 'he'
was curious or if he saw his reflection in your mask perhaps ??
> I suspect it is because anything that hunts from below might be confused
> because there is no clear silhouette.
So my turtle showed up and stayed with me in order to get away from
something in the depths that was hunting it ?? It was using me as
protection, IOW ?? That's not a comforting thought !! <grin>
Hacker Jack
>I've also seen ppl like Mike Gray and Ken Kurtis be able to pet
>/scratch big eels under their chins. Mike and Ken are able to do this
>because : 1) They have balls.
and 2) No brains.
Scott
"Hacker Jack" <hacke...@rodales.com> wrote in message
news:0b82c5988f653ed1...@news.teranews.com...
Nothing to do with balls or lack of brains.
Just means you posed no threat.
Scott
Hacker Jack
wrote:
No, it usually means you're diving with some jerk who wants to impress
everybody with his stupid "lion-tamer" act. Divers with brains
observe marine wildlife and keep their hands to themselves.
Lee Bell
> I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is very
> stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just
> because it's a natural thing for them to do doesn't mean it's not a
> tradeoff.
Well, that's certainly an authoritative source. Must be true, then.
mike gray, CID
> "Is(sic) is clear from a recent study that the power of
> inflating has dramatic effects on blood circulation (due to the increased
> internal pressure) and on digestion (due to the stomach change in volume),
> and it is therefore the last resource, that a puffer fish can use for a
> limited number of times (7 to 12), to avoid death. For this reason we invite
> all the divers to not provoke puffer fish "inflation": this means a useless
> stress for the fish, that significantly reduces its life span." The quote
> was taken from: www.edge-of-reef.com
Very interesting. Male Homo sapiens has the same problem. 7 to 12 times,
then death.
chilly
"mike gray, CID" <mikeg...@worldnut.nut> wrote in message
news:mUazb.378161$0v4.19...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
That's too bad. Female Homo sapiens don't have the same problem. They can
inflate multiple times.
rwjg40
> Poetic license leaves ample opportunity to wiggle your linguistic
> pinkie, however, your reckless juxtaposition of "pinkie-side" and
> "homi-cide" puts you at risk of being accused of overkill after
> fingering the wrong consonant. After all, 'cide' (from 'caedere'
> meaning to slay, to kill) clearly refers to death as in homicide,
> suicide, fratricide, insecticide, etc. In this case, death did not
> occur, therefore Inspector Bell's choice of 's' rather than 'c' would
> seem most appropriate for the mere loss of the diver's pinkie rather
> than his life.
Au contraire. Death of the aforementioned pinkie most assuredly did
occur (it was not reattachable), hence the "cide" suffix is correct.
Gordon in Austin
--
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[ ]General Business Information
[x]Motorola Internal Use
[ ]Motorola Confidential Proprietary
rwjg40
I was walking around in the Arboretum in Golden Gate Park one day, and
squirrels were everywhere, begging for food. I was ignoring them, but
then I felt something on my pants leg. A squirrel had stood on his hind
legs, grabbed a handful of cloth as high as he could reach, and was
tugging on it and looking up at me.
rwjg40
Well, do you know for a fact that it doesn't hurt them? I don't know
for sure either way, so I will err (if indeed I do err) on the side of
caution and defer to leaving the poor buggers alone. The DM's on
Cozumel might not be ironclad authorities on the subject, but they
certainly spend more time dealing with puffers than I.
Gordon in Austin
Mike Painter
"rwjg40" <identity....@upon.request> wrote in message
news:3FCCFAD9...@upon.request...
> Alan Shepard's Tiny Penis wrote:
>
> > Poetic license leaves ample opportunity to wiggle your linguistic
> > pinkie, however, your reckless juxtaposition of "pinkie-side" and
> > "homi-cide" puts you at risk of being accused of overkill after
> > fingering the wrong consonant. After all, 'cide' (from 'caedere'
> > meaning to slay, to kill) clearly refers to death as in homicide,
> > suicide, fratricide, insecticide, etc. In this case, death did not
> > occur, therefore Inspector Bell's choice of 's' rather than 'c' would
> > seem most appropriate for the mere loss of the diver's pinkie rather
> > than his life.
>
> Au contraire. Death of the aforementioned pinkie most assuredly did
> occur (it was not reattachable), hence the "cide" suffix is correct.
>
> Gordon in Austin
Chances are -tomy would be the proper term Partial distal fingerectomy?
Lee Bell
very
> > > stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just
> > > because it's a natural thing for them to do doesn't mean it's not a
> > > tradeoff.
> >
> > Well, that's certainly an authoritative source. Must be true, then.
>
> Well, do you know for a fact that it doesn't hurt them? I don't know
> for sure either way, so I will err (if indeed I do err) on the side of
> caution and defer to leaving the poor buggers alone. The DM's on
> Cozumel might not be ironclad authorities on the subject, but they
> certainly spend more time dealing with puffers than I.
I know more about it than a Cozumel DM. At least I've spent some time in a
marine biology classroom and assume, rightfully, I think, that I have far
more experience with the subject than somebody that avoids touching them
because he is certain that it is harmful.
I applaud your choice not to touch, but the issue is not whether you, or I
choose to touch, but our judgement of the effects of somebody else touching.
Presumption that it's harmful, which is all anybody seems to have as a
basis, simply is not sufficient for judging somebody else's actions. You
want me to believe that the fish's natural defense system is harmful to it,
show me a properly conducted scientific study that measures the degree of
harm.
I've handled a number of puffers, over a lot of years. I'm gentle, more
cradleing them than holding them. They inflate, causing their spines to
extend and, when released, deflate and swim away. They rarely swim quickly,
before or after capture, strongly suggesting that they are not particularly
stressed by the encounter. I'm sure they are at least a little stressed,
but that's got to be pretty common for a slow moving fish whose only
practical form of defense is to inflate.
Lee
rwjg40
>
> > > > I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is
> very
> > > > stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just
> > > > because it's a natural thing for them to do doesn't mean it's not a
> > > > tradeoff.
> > >
> > > Well, that's certainly an authoritative source. Must be true, then.
> >
> > Well, do you know for a fact that it doesn't hurt them? I don't know
> > for sure either way, so I will err (if indeed I do err) on the side of
> > caution and defer to leaving the poor buggers alone. The DM's on
> > Cozumel might not be ironclad authorities on the subject, but they
> > certainly spend more time dealing with puffers than I.
>
> I know more about it than a Cozumel DM. At least I've spent some time in a
> marine biology classroom and assume, rightfully, I think, that I have far
> more experience with the subject than somebody that avoids touching them
> because he is certain that it is harmful.
Others in this thread with more credentials than spending some time in a
marine biology classroom have also weighed in on the side that causing
them to inflate potentially causes them long term harm. And where did I
ever say that I am certain that it is harmful?
> I applaud your choice not to touch, but the issue is not whether you, or I
> choose to touch, but our judgement of the effects of somebody else touching.
> Presumption that it's harmful, which is all anybody seems to have as a
> basis, simply is not sufficient for judging somebody else's actions. You
> want me to believe that the fish's natural defense system is harmful to it,
> show me a properly conducted scientific study that measures the degree of
> harm.
I don't necessarily want you to believe anything, but if your attitude
is you'll do what you want unless it's proven by some study that it's
harmful (although some data presented in other posts in this thread
suggest to me that it is, or at least could be), then go ahead on; I''m
not stopping you. However, just because something is a natural defense
does not mean that there is not a penalty to pay for using it.
> I've handled a number of puffers, over a lot of years. I'm gentle, more
> cradleing them than holding them. They inflate, causing their spines to
> extend and, when released, deflate and swim away. They rarely swim quickly,
> before or after capture, strongly suggesting that they are not particularly
> stressed by the encounter. I'm sure they are at least a little stressed,
> but that's got to be pretty common for a slow moving fish whose only
> practical form of defense is to inflate.
I've handled them, too, many times, just not so aggressively that they
panic and inflate. I've been told that it's not good for them, and I
don't need a scientific study to figure out that getting my jollies by
watching them inflate is not worth chancing it. Show me a properly
conducted scientific study that proves that it is safe for them, and
I'll do it, too.
Gordon in Austin
--
Lee Bell
> Others in this thread with more credentials than spending some time in a
> marine biology classroom have also weighed in on the side that causing
> them to inflate potentially causes them long term harm. And where did I
> ever say that I am certain that it is harmful?
There have been out of context posts from people with the right credentials
that supported both sides. You seem to have managed to read only one side.
Regardless, the issue was Cozumel DM's, not everybody that has ever had an
opinion on the subject.
> I don't necessarily want you to believe anything, but if your attitude
> is you'll do what you want unless it's proven by some study that it's
> harmful (although some data presented in other posts in this thread
> suggest to me that it is, or at least could be), then go ahead on; I''m
> not stopping you. However, just because something is a natural defense
> does not mean that there is not a penalty to pay for using it.
If your attitude is that my attitude is I'll do everything until somebody
proves it's harmful, then you need to reassess your attitude. Glad to hear
you're not stopping me. You might find that an uncomfortable thing to try.
There's a penalty to pay for everything. It's a matter of degree, not of
existance.
> I've handled them, too, many times, just not so aggressively that they
> panic and inflate.
You're either talking about a different kind of puffer, or you're not
telling the truth. The spiny puffer we have here inflates just because he
has been constrained. That's his one and only defense and he uses it
readily.
> I've been told that it's not good for them, and I
> don't need a scientific study to figure out that getting my jollies by
> watching them inflate is not worth chancing it. Show me a properly
> conducted scientific study that proves that it is safe for them, and
> I'll do it, too.
Diving is harmful to ocean life. Your presence stresses them.
The agriculture the produces your food is harmful to ocean life. No matter
what, some pollutants reach the ocean.
The simple process of expelling body wastes is harmful to oceanlife. No
matter what, some pollutants reach the ocean.
Are you going to stop diving, eating or pooping?
Lee
rnf2
"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:2Ipzb.2634$Qd6....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
a link to an aussie aquarium site that has a properly peer reviewed
scientific study that says inflating does them no harm. and somewhere in the
UK.rec.scuba google archives is the same link posted by someone else, thats
where I stole the link from.
rhys
rnf2
"rwjg40" <identity....@upon.request> wrote
> I've handled them, too, many times, just not so aggressively that they
> panic and inflate. I've been told that it's not good for them, and I
> don't need a scientific study to figure out that getting my jollies by
> watching them inflate is not worth chancing it. Show me a properly
> conducted scientific study that proves that it is safe for them, and
> I'll do it, too.
>
> Gordon in Austin
> --
Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of
Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal of
Morphology 220: 243-261
chilly
"rnf2" <rn...@NOSPAMwaikato.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3fce...@news.iconz.co.nz...
>
> >
> Hmm... somewhere in the google archives for this group is a post I made
with
> a link to an aussie aquarium site that has a properly peer reviewed
> scientific study that says inflating does them no harm. and somewhere in
the
> UK.rec.scuba google archives is the same link posted by someone else,
thats
> where I stole the link from.
I have received an email reply from my marine biologist source. He says he
will locate the study to which he referred and get back to me. Which I
appreciate, however, I'm also aware, that he doesn't know me from Adam and
is not actively engaged in this convo. Therefore, it will be quite a
surprise to me if he actually ends up providing the study. :^)
That said, I remain hopeful.
Oh, and Lee. Since everything is stressful on the ocean anyway, I guess we
shouldn't worry about kicking coral?
Lee Bell
> Hmm... somewhere in the google archives for this group is a post I made
with
> a link to an aussie aquarium site that has a properly peer reviewed
> scientific study that says inflating does them no harm. and somewhere in
the
> UK.rec.scuba google archives is the same link posted by someone else,
thats
> where I stole the link from.
I think I saw your link and followed it. I don't recall a description of
any study on the subject, but I could be wrong. What I recall is rather
well worded discussion of sombody's opinion. As I mentioned, somebody else
posted an equally well worded opinion that directly conflicted with the one
you found. Like I said, there have been qualified opinions on both sides.
Lee
Lee Bell
> Oh, and Lee. Since everything is stressful on the ocean anyway, I guess
we
> shouldn't worry about kicking coral?
In your personal relationships, do you equate holding hands with being
kicked in the head?
Lee