FS: Techie wings BCD
Tony Howard
12 Satinless steel 'D' rings, double cambands, hard backpack & integrated
weight system.
Front fold-down pouch for slate / torch.
Complete with weight pouches and D/F hose.
Excellent condition (little used). Reviewed in Diver magasine, May issue.
Medium / large size would suit up to 40" chest with drysuit or 42" chest in
3mm wet.
Cost £465 new, sensible offers.
Keith S.
>
> Dacor RIG2 BCD. 40Kg lift (88 Lb for the US readers).
> 12 Satinless steel 'D' rings,
Hmm, how about this for a new thread:
How many D rings do you need and what for?
I've currently got 6 on my harness.
One on the left waist strap for the bottom stage bottle clip.
One about half way up the left shoulder strap to clip my contents gauge to
(I put this one on recently as it puts the gauge just where I can easily see it,
before I used to clip the contents guage to the crotch strap D ring).
One three quarters up the left shoulder strap for the top stage bottle clip.
One about halfway up the right shoulder strap which my spare torch clips onto,
also my main reg when I'm breathing the stage reg.
One on the right waist strap for my dsmb (I'd like to find a better place for
this, but it's easy to find)
The last is on the crotch strap at the front, which my main torch clips onto.
- Keith
Pete Young
>How many D rings do you need and what for?
>I've currently got 6 on my harness.
I manage quite nicely with 4.
>One on the left waist strap for the bottom stage bottle clip.
So far so good.
>One about half way up the left shoulder strap to clip my contents gauge to
>(I put this one on recently as it puts the gauge just where I can easily see it,
>before I used to clip the contents guage to the crotch strap D ring).
Contents gauge should go on the same left hip D ring as the stage bottles.
It helps to have a shorter hose for this (I don't,yet). You don't need to
look at it all the time, best to keep it tucked out of the way.
>One three quarters up the left shoulder strap for the top stage bottle clip.
>One about halfway up the right shoulder strap which my spare torch clips onto,
>also my main reg when I'm breathing the stage reg.
So far so good. Thats where the light head should also live when
you're not using it.
>One on the right waist strap for my dsmb (I'd like to find a better place for
>this, but it's easy to find)
DSMB's don't really fit in the DIR system, cos they don't use em
in the US. What we do is put the bag in one of the bellows pockets on
the drysuit, and the reel clips onto the 4th D ring which is on the
crotch strap at the back, under the cylinders. This way it's streamlined
and the bag is protected, but it does take a minute to assemble it
when you want to deploy.
You could easily move your battery pack onto the right waist strap and
probably still have room for this D-ring if you want to keep it.
>The last is on the crotch strap at the front, which my main torch clips onto.
The front crotch strap is supposed to be for your scooter.
Pete
--
____________________________________________________________________
Pete Young pe...@antipope.org
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"
Keith S.
> The front crotch strap is supposed to be for your scooter.
Damn! I'd never thought of hanging my Vespa on that one ;)
- Keith
Alasdair Allan (KEE)
> Keith Sabine wrote:
> > Tony Howard wrote:
> > >
> > > How many D rings do you need and what for?
> >
> > I've currently got 6 on my harness.
>
> I manage quite nicely with 4.
>
> > One on the left waist strap for the bottom stage bottle clip.
>
> So far so good.
Oh boy, I can't believe I'm about to start _that_ argument again,
especially since I've just kicked off the closest thing to a flame
war that the BSAC Forum has seen in a good year or so, but...
...why so far so good? This is what winds me up something chronic about
the entire DIR kit configuration thing. There is only one way to do it?
To put it politely, bollocks...
I'm sold on the isolating manifold, I'm sort of sold on wings (I've just
gone out and bought myself a DiveRite Classic with a stainless backplate)
but to specify where and how many D-rings should go on the harness and
where they should be is just downright silly. There are a bunch of optimal
ways to run hoses, there are a bunch of optimal ways to to hang kit off
the harness, there is no one way to do things. The Chi-Square space is
not simple and has multiple local minima here...there is a bunch of ways
to do things!
> Contents gauge should go on the same left hip D ring as the stage
> bottles.
Why? I'm going to run mine under my left arm and clip it off around
chest level, I've even gone out and bought a custom length hose for
the purpose. Why? 'cause thats where I feel most comfortable putting
it...
> ...best to keep it tucked out of the way.
Absolutely, its perfectly fine tucked out the way around chest level, and
well above my stage cylinders. I don't want my contents gauge down at
waits level banging around with my stages thanks all the same...
> DSMB's don't really fit in the DIR system, cos they don't use em
> in the US.
Bingo! You just hit on it, the DIR kit config is nice, streamlined and
optimised for its environment....big caverns in the States, not wreck
diving in the UK.
I'm not against DIR, I'm not against people going out and doing DIR style
kit rigging (why is it the arguments are always about kit, when DIR is
about so much more than that?), but I am against people saying "It must
be done this way".
Why? 'cause thats silly, it doesn't _have_ to be done that way.
> The front crotch strap is supposed to be for your scooter.
...and how many of us use scooters? Damn few.
Anyway, thats my rant for the day over, and nope, I'm not getting at you
personally Pete. Its just the entire one way to do things idea sticks in
my throat, hmm, maybe thats why I like Perl so much for scripting...
Al.
--
A. Allan KUSAC Diving Officer (BSAC 9152)
http://www.astro.keele.ac.uk/~aa/home.html
Jason
I use up to 6. The first four are because I commit heresy by having a
stage bottle on either side. This does mean that I can clip my stages up
on my own and stand up on the boat, but it does of course mean they
oscillate when I'm powering my way through the water.
Then I use another one to attach my UK D4 torch to. I suppose I could use
the D-ring with the stage on it but it's a bit low and I don't really want
to have too many clips on the one ring.
And finally I have one quite high on my left shoulder. This is only used
for a loop of silicone which holds my wing corrugated hose in place.
I still haven't really decided on a good place for the reel. With one
stage I just used to clip it on my right hip, but this doesn't work so
well with two stages. It gets pushed backwards and can be hard to find. I
don't really want to put it somewhere where I might sit on it. I watched a
DIR-UK zealot almost have a nasty accident with one once. That would have
been hours of fun explaining it in Casulty.
Jason
--
See http://www.volnay.freeserve.co.uk/ for trip reports about Australia,
the Caribbean, Gran Canaria, the Maldives, Bali and England.
Andy
>> So far so good.
>
>Oh boy, I can't believe I'm about to start _that_ argument again,
>especially since I've just kicked off the closest thing to a flame
>war that the BSAC Forum has seen in a good year or so, but...
>
>...why so far so good? This is what winds me up something chronic about
>the entire DIR kit configuration thing. There is only one way to do it?
>
>To put it politely, bollocks...
I have to agree... I started reading this thread and thought the same
thing; may I also say as Ergonomics Society Student Bursary winner of
1996, there is never one way to do something right. I might go along
with the fact that the DIR crowd may be looking at something like the
80 percentile of the diving word in the way they say kit should be
configured. Well that still leaves 20 %. In ergonomics you fit the
environment to the person, this makes sense as we all differ. I
personally favour inverted twins...is this wrong, some of you may
think so, but does that make you right ? I would be very sceptical
of someone who was so blinkered in the way they look at our sport, it
could be dangerous in certain situations. And this is a PADI
Instructor (#614002) agreeing with a BSAC diver so there is hope for
us yet <g>.
Helen Johnstone
> stage I just used to clip it on my right hip, but this doesn't work so
> well with two stages. It gets pushed backwards and can be hard to find. I
> don't really want to put it somewhere where I might sit on it. I watched a
> DIR-UK zealot almost have a nasty accident with one once. That would have
> been hours of fun explaining it in Casulty.
Try putting it onto the front crotch-strap ring (the 'scooter' ring) until
you get into the water, then transfer it across to the rear. I keep my DSMB
and reel off the back D-ring. Works well in UK wreck diving scene ;-) No
problems getting to it even with stages, I find. Scooter ring useful for
jon-lines as well.
My other d-rings.... one on left hip for bottoms of stages + contents gauge,
one on left shoulder for tops of stages, one of right shoulder for back-up
light, torch head and main reg (whilst not in use!).
Someone I know bought the OMS full harness ... this had 17 D-rings (or
thereabouts!). Checked a DiveRite TrekWing thing last weekend, counted 19
(or so!). They must be *real* techie ! :-)
- H
Pete Young
>I have to agree... I started reading this thread and thought the same
>thing; may I also say as Ergonomics Society Student Bursary winner of
>1996,
What?
As All-England Concertina playing champion of 1977, may I say that you
are talking complete and utter unmitigated twaddle.
Both qualifications have the same relevance when it comes to the
subject under discussion: none whatever.
>personally favour inverted twins...is this wrong, some of you may
What a surprise.
There is one thing at stake here which is far more important than
ergonomics and personal comfort, and that is being able to react
quickly and efficiently in a potentially life-threatening emergency.
Pete Young
>> So far so good.
>...why so far so good? This is what winds me up something chronic about
>the entire DIR kit configuration thing. There is only one way to do it?
You are reading far too much into one throwaway line. I'll be generous
and put this down to overwork. It will be a sad day indeed when everything
has to be labelled AS A JOKE in uk.rec.scuba.
>but to specify where and how many D-rings should go on the harness and
>where they should be is just downright silly.
Why? This is a thread about how many D-rings people use, and where people
put them. All I did was answer the question.
>Absolutely, its perfectly fine tucked out the way around chest level, and
>well above my stage cylinders. I don't want my contents gauge down at
>waits level banging around with my stages thanks all the same...
If you use an 18 inch hose the contents gauge is actually ABOVE the
level of the waist band.
You will also find that wherever you put your stages, they are much
more comfortable in the water if they can orient themselves horizontally.
I find that this works best if the top of the stage is clipped high on
the harness, near the shoulder. If your stages are banging about at
waist level you may find that they are generating more drag than they
need to. Even with one stage, this placement is likely to get in
the way of a contents gauge clipped to the D-ring. Personally I
think it's more important to get the streamlining right.
Forget DIR. Forget WKPP. Forget Irvine and Jablonski.
Just think three principles:
1) Simplicity. (Take what you need. Don't take What you don't need.)
2) Streamlining.
3) Dont put up with anything less than 100% to your satisfaction.
>Bingo! You just hit on it, the DIR kit config is nice, streamlined and
>optimised for its environment....big caverns in the States, not wreck
>diving in the UK.
As has been said by many people, this is just plain wrong.
In the US it probably gets used for more open water dives than cave
dives. The system is used for wreck diving all over the world, including
dives that are far more arduous and demanding than either you or I
will ever do. It certainly worked fine for me inside the Medina at 60+
metres the other week.
It seems to me, that some people on this list who are so quick to
criticise a system which works do so because they lack the humility
and self-belief to put aside prejudices and actually give it a try.
I certainly came to accept it the hard way.
>about so much more than that?), but I am against people saying "It must
>be done this way".
I'm saying 'I do it this way'. Not 'It must be done this way'.
>Anyway, thats my rant for the day over, and nope, I'm not getting at you
>personally Pete.
Sure seems like it.
Keith S.
> You will also find that wherever you put your stages, they are much
> more comfortable in the water if they can orient themselves horizontally.
> I find that this works best if the top of the stage is clipped high on
> the harness, near the shoulder.
I tend to agree. With my 7L clipped high, I hardly notice it in the water now.
> It seems to me, that some people on this list who are so quick to
> criticise a system which works do so because they lack the humility
> and self-belief to put aside prejudices and actually give it a try.
> I certainly came to accept it the hard way.
I'm willing to give anything a try if it comes with a reasoned explanation.
And then if it works, I'll use it. Sometimes it doesn't always work first
time, but it's worth persevering a bit. For example the first time I used
a long hose I found it kept floating up over my head. After a while I stowed
it slightly differently, and it all started working nicely.
Mind you I still haven't gotten rid of me boots yet :)
BTW Pete, I was very tempted by a pair of Jetfins I saw in Runnymede
yesterday. How are you getting on with yours?
- Keith
Vic
In article <slrn8kem3...@cornfed.alien.bt.co.uk>,
pe...@antipope.org wrote:
> >...why so far so good? This is what winds me up something chronic
about
> >the entire DIR kit configuration thing. There is only one way to do
it?
>
> You are reading far too much into one throwaway line. I'll be generous
> and put this down to overwork. It will be a sad day indeed when
everything
> has to be labelled AS A JOKE in uk.rec.scuba.
You are therefore being too flippant with something that is known to be
a contentious issue; If I were to say something along the lines of "DIR
divers are all wankers", *I* might know it was a joke - but you can
believe someone will get very upset. And rightly so. (and for those who
missed that point - I don't think DIR divers are all wankers).
> Why? This is a thread about how many D-rings people use, and where
people
> put them. All I did was answer the question.
No you didn't - you told others where to put them.
> >I don't want my contents gauge down at
> >waits level banging around with my stages thanks all the same...
>
> If you use an 18 inch hose the contents gauge is actually ABOVE the
> level of the waist band.
And if you attach it to a higher ring, it's also above the waist band.
And I didn't need to buy a custom-length HP hose to get it there.
> Just think three principles:
>
> 1) Simplicity. (Take what you need. Don't take What you don't need.)
I have yet to meet *anyone* who follows this completely. That's partly
because it's a corruption of the DIR message - according to JJ, DIR is
about thinking objectively about the costs and benefits of every bit of
kit you think about taking. So, if something is beneficial, and has a
minimal cost, you can take it - irrespective of whether you need it or
not.
> 2) Streamlining.
Streamlining is one aspect of the cost/benefit tradeoff. It is not an
end in itself. It is entirely possible to do really stupid things in an
attempt to reduce drag - think about the whole of the decision, not just
one aspect.
> 3) Dont put up with anything less than 100% to your satisfaction.
Being *told* how to configure my gear is not at all to my
satisfaction...
> >Bingo! You just hit on it, the DIR kit config is nice, streamlined
and
> >optimised for its environment....big caverns in the States, not wreck
> >diving in the UK.
>
> As has been said by many people, this is just plain wrong.
I think we have a good example of why it is right just above! The
"standard" rig that's promoted so heavily does not cope with DSMBs - so
it requires modification to make it suitable for the sort of diving
we're doing.
Once you're over that hurdle - that the rig is not suitable as is - the
rest is easy. Modify as required - keeping in mind all the time that it
is important to think through every change you make.
> In the US it probably gets used for more open water dives than cave
> dives.
How many with DSMBs? Is this really the same situation as the diving we
all do in the UK?
> The system is used for wreck diving all over the world, including
> dives that are far more arduous and demanding than either you or I
> will ever do. It certainly worked fine for me inside the Medina at 60+
> metres the other week.
So did you use a DSMB? If not, why not? If you did, you clearly modified
the basic configuration which doesn't have anywhere to stach a DSMB.
> It seems to me, that some people on this list who are so quick to
> criticise a system which works do so because they lack the humility
> and self-belief to put aside prejudices and actually give it a try.
> I certainly came to accept it the hard way.
And you might be right - but you are not definitely right. Some fo us
dive with a configuration we're happy with that may or may not have come
from the US babble. However, having read JJ's explanation of the DIR
system, I am now 100% convinced that my rig is DIR - despite the fact
that I clip my pressure gauge off in much the same way that Alistair
described.
> I'm saying 'I do it this way'. Not 'It must be done this way'.
Not true. You said
> Contents gauge should go on the same left hip D ring as the stage
bottles
Note the word "should" - rather more indicative of a "do it this way"
comment than a "this is how I do it" one.
Vic.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Phil Clarke
> As All-England Concertina playing champion of 1977, may I say that you
> are talking complete and utter unmitigated twaddle.
> ....
> There is one thing at stake here which is far more important than
> ergonomics and personal comfort, and that is being able to react
> quickly and efficiently in a potentially life-threatening emergency.
As global grand master of rant and filibuster 1996 I take issue with this
last point - if we're talking linear best to worst then emergency
avoidance is far more important than emergency resolution.
Continuing to take issue with the point: if we're discussing the whole big
mish mash of issues then ergonomics and personal comfort contribute to
confidence, panic resistence, not getting into emergencies in the first
place etc. You've gotta responsibly balance the whole lot, not forgetting
having fun on your finite budget (what the point otherwise?)..
Phil and his all encompassing insight
Pete Young
>Pete Young wrote:
>> There is one thing at stake here which is far more important than
>> ergonomics and personal comfort, and that is being able to react
>> quickly and efficiently in a potentially life-threatening emergency.
>As global grand master of rant and filibuster 1996 I take issue with this
>last point - if we're talking linear best to worst then emergency
>avoidance is far more important than emergency resolution.
I agree with you. I should have said "to prevent" rather than "in".
Regards
Pete
Alasdair Allan (KEE)
>
>
> Just think three principles:
>
> 1) Simplicity. (Take what you need. Don't take What you don't need.)
As others have pointed out this is actually a simplification of the DIR
philosophy, but I know where you got it from, its a direct quote from the
GAS Diving UK page. The DIR kit philosophy is a cost vs. benefit thing,
not simplification, its a subtle but important point.
> 2) Streamlining.
I'm totally unconvinced about the entire streamlining thing. People
do silly things to be more streamlined. However while its important if
your doing 5 or 6 knots hanging off the back of a WKPP scooter, most of
us don't do that sort of thing. You're not going to cause vortices off
unstreamlined gear just by finning along, your not going fast enough
for it to matter.
On the other hand bouyancy, where it is, how its distributed and of
course your finning technique is IMHO more important.
Once you've gotten rid of the obvious snag points (we are talking wreck
dives here) forget streamlining is unimportant.
For instance the WKPP lot recommend piston bolts, now lets think why they
do that? They recommend piston bolts to reduce snag risk. Right? But
so called suicide clips are only really bad snag risks at speed, i.e. on
the back of a scooter doing a couple of knots. When your fining the risk
is negligible.
That said I use piston clips because having tried several other methods,
I've decided that I (personally) prefer them. But I wouldn't try and stop
or change someones mind if they wanted to use something else. On the other
hand if they weighed themselves down with suicide clips and went out and
bought a scooter I might have a quiet word.
> The system is used for wreck diving all over the world, including
> dives that are far more arduous and demanding than either you or I
> will ever do. It certainly worked fine for me inside the Medina at 60+
> metres the other week.
Look, I'm not saying DIR is bad. Its a good way to rig kit, I'm just
saying that its not the only way to do it.
> It seems to me, that some people on this list who are so quick to
> criticise a system which works do so because they lack the humility
> and self-belief to put aside prejudices and actually give it a try.
Is this aimed at me? I'm quite happy to keep on "Doing it Wrong", despite
having just gone out (finally) manifolded my (shock, horror!) independent
twins, and switched over to a wing and backplate. There are some things
that, after having looked carefully at the DIR rig, I'm going to adopt
and some things I'm not because I think they aren't the right way to do
it. That said I'll probably be playing with hose routing and other issues
with my new kit for the rest of the season, maybe I'll adopt more of
the DIR rig, maybe I'll discard some and more further away from it.
When it comes right down to it thats my choice, I'm willing to experiment
with my kit setup. Alot of DIR people don't seem willing to do so, which
is odd because if you talk to any of the WKPP people they seem perfectly
willing to do so themselves.
> > Anyway, thats my rant for the day over, and nope, I'm not getting at
> > you personally Pete.
>
> Sure seems like it.
Well it wasn't...believe it, or believe it not. *shrug*
Al.
--
Dr. A. Allan KUSAC Diving Officer (BSAC 9152)
http://www.astro.keele.ac.uk/~aa/home.html
Pete Young
>I can't believe I'm getting into this...
Me neither.
>So did you use a DSMB? If not, why not? If you did, you clearly modified
>the basic configuration which doesn't have anywhere to stach a DSMB.
A deco station as it happens, but I always carry at least one DSMB on a
deco dive.
I don't understand why people get so hung up about DSMBs. Lifting bags
aren't part of the 'basic configuration' either, but there are several
ways in which the system accommodates them, and the DSMB is no different.
Reel on the back D-ring. Bag in the backpad pocket, or under
the tanks, or in a drysuit pocket. Not a big deal either way.
I also don't believe that the entire system crumbles like a pack of
cards once you add a DSMB to your pocket.
>Note the word "should" - rather more indicative of a "do it this way"
>comment than a "this is how I do it" one.
Yup, got me there. Didn't realise anybody gave a shit.
Vic
pe...@antipope.org wrote:
> I don't understand why people get so hung up about DSMBs.
No-one's hung up; it's merely a simple example of how the system is
*not* all-encompassing. It requires modification for different
environments.
Once you've got over that hurdle - that "one size fits all" just doesn't
apply - DIR can be applied to any environment - but it may mean
divergence from the sacred principles as devised in the US.
> Yup, got me there. Didn't realise anybody gave a shit.
This is exactly what people give a shit about! Being *told* how to dive
puts many people's backs up. Being shown a natty system intrigues people
& may help their future diving. Guess which is more successful in
putting a message across...
Of course there is always the J6 get out of "I don't care what you learn
or not" - please don't take this route, as it always leads to questions
about why bother posting in the first place.
Jason
<helen.j...@bt.com> wrote:
> Try putting it onto the front crotch-strap ring (the 'scooter' ring)
> until you get into the water, then transfer it across to the rear. I
> keep my DSMB and reel off the back D-ring. Works well in UK wreck diving
I might give it a try. Do you use a self-inflating DSMB? At the moment
I've got it in a drysuit pocket, but it's a bit of a pig getting it out
quickly. It's rather a tight fit.
Helen Johnstone
> > until you get into the water, then transfer it across to the rear. I
> > keep my DSMB and reel off the back D-ring. Works well in UK wreck diving
>
> I might give it a try. Do you use a self-inflating DSMB? At the moment
> I've got it in a drysuit pocket, but it's a bit of a pig getting it out
> quickly. It's rather a tight fit.
Yes I've got an ADP Deco-Buoy. I tried putting it into a pocket. It
fitted - just. However, I once had a hell of a time getting it out of the
pocket (not good at depth), and then reverted to putting it on the
rear-crotch D-ring. Even with multiple stages, argon bottle and cannister
torch, I can easily and quickly access it.
I've also put a bit of 'snatch line' onto the DSMB. This consists of a
length of elasticated braiding between the buoy and the clip on which the
reel is attached. The snatch line takes up some surface movement resulting
in a more comfortable deco. This wraps around the deco bag itself which
prevents the bag from unravelling in case of accidental inflation, and hence
you don't get dragged up ar*e-first towards the surface. Likewise, think of
how you would cope if the deco-buoy inflated whilst it is in your pocket.
- H
Jason
<helen.j...@bt.com> wrote:
> the reel is attached. The snatch line takes up some surface movement
> resulting in a more comfortable deco. This wraps around the deco bag
> itself which prevents the bag from unravelling in case of accidental
> inflation, and hence you don't get dragged up ar*e-first towards the
> surface. Likewise, think of how you would cope if the deco-buoy inflated
> whilst it is in your pocket.
Well I've got an AP Valves one which comes with a velcro strap which
should stop in unravelling accidentally.
I might give this a try if I can get hold of the right bits to put a
D-ring on my crotch strap.
Helen Johnstone
> Well I've got an AP Valves one which comes with a velcro strap which
> should stop in unravelling accidentally.
Yes, the ADP deco-buoy's got one as well. I just don't trust a bit of velcro
to stop inflating it. Must try it sometime to see if the velcro will hold
it. I suspect not....
> I might give this a try if I can get hold of the right bits to put a
> D-ring on my crotch strap.
1 D-ring, 1 h-clip. Just feed the webbing back thru the h-clip to form the
loop, thru which the waist strap goes. Easy :-)
- H