Boys and girls sleeping in the same tent.
Eddie Langdown
situation;
Five scouts, three girls and a two boys are on a hike camp, all aged 13,
one of the girls 14. They have a 3 person tent, a 2 person tent and a
nylon 'tarp' for storing kit/ cooking.... Just before the second night
one girl leaves as planned. When the leader visits about 6pm there was
only one other (unconnected) adult & son camping on the small wooded scout
owned site. It is a horrible damp evening, but the 4 scouts are together
in the bigger tent chatting and laughing innocently, having just made a
percussion orchestra out of lids, pegs, poles, packets etc.... After
checking they had everything they needed, were clearly happy and were
clear about the next day's route, the leader left. He was camping a about
a mile away, with younger scouts on a different site. Both had working
mobile phones.
All four youngsters get on well together, have known each other since
junior school and cubs, the parents of three are quite close, except the
parents of an African girl, who are quite strict.
The next day when everyone met-up the four said quite openly and casually
to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the bigger tent, 'As
it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
3. Make a point of telling the parents?
4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
5. So what?....Do nothing?
6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
Other thoughts?
Eddie
Steve Hulka
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
Hmm, tough one! Can I vote "none of the above"?
A few thoughts, not in any particular order:
Don't ignore it, don't 'bury' it.
Credit to the kids for being open and honest; if they thought they were
doing anything wrong, they didn't have to tell the leader, who would
have been none the wiser. They obviously felt comfortable about telling
the leader, which points to a good open relationship.
From the info given above the leader has followed the rules in all
aspects, as long as he's a permit holder and issued a passport to the
Scout in charge. He checked on them, was in the locality and could be
contacted. No problem there that I can see.
Encourage the kids to tell their parents in their own way as it's
unlikely to remain a secret.
Point out to them that they have put the leader in an awkward position,
and that he can't and won't lie for them if questions are asked. I
don't see any need to make them feel bad about anything else other than
this.
The leader shouldn't "threaten" to tell the parents; this will damage
the trust that is there between Leader and Scout.
The exception here would be if the parents had made it known beforehand
that they did not want their children sleeping in the same tent. In
this case, a reprimand for the Scouts is in order (no unsupervised camps
in future), and the parents should be told. Any further reprimand to be
at the hand of the parents.
This is not based on any practical experience as my Troop isn't mixed
yet, although we all have this coming soon enough!
Steve
Steve
> to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the bigger tent, 'As
> it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
>
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
>
> Other thoughts?
> Eddie
>
>
As far as I can see;
They broke no rules.
They stayed warm.
The couldn't have done anything about it.
So what's wrong?
Ah yes, what people think! Well, isn't that their problem? Oh no, we have
to worry about our image, what would I do? Probably somehow work it into a
light-hearted comment to the parents suggesting that I didn't mind but the
thoughts of all the parents should have been considered by the YP.
Cop out? maybe! But better than them saying there were two in each tent,
bit not saying which two!
Steve
Tim Jones
No rules were broken. So unless you had specifically forbidden it (not
to be advised IMHO) I'd let sleeping dogs lie.
Regards
Tim Jones
Paul Harris
<wilde...@btopenworld.com> writes
>On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:33:09 +0000 (UTC), the3...@btinternet.com
>(Eddie Langdown) wrote:
>
>>The next day when everyone met-up the four said quite openly and casually
>>to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the bigger tent, 'As
>>it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
>>
>No rules were broken. So unless you had specifically forbidden it (not
>to be advised IMHO) I'd let sleeping dogs lie.
>
Agreed, they don't consider it to be an issue and unless someone makes
it one it won't be an issue. The Leader had provided adequate tents
and obviously intended that they should sleep apart, they chose not to
and did what they thought was best at the time and felt safe and secure.
I would have no problem with that, we teach them to be sensible,
responsible, self reliant and to use their initiative so we shouldn't
complain when they do.
--
Paul Harris
Pete
> The next day when everyone met-up the four said quite openly and
> casually to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the
> bigger tent, 'As it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
>
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
If I were picking one of the above it would be 5. They obviously had no
thought that what they did was "wrong" otherwise they wouldn't have so
openly said. And what is the problem - so long as they all had there own
sleeping bags there was no problem, unless there had been a specific
segregation request.
The leader in charge did nothing wrong so no problem there either and as for
the parents - they'll find out if their son/daughter tells them - no point
making a big thing of it.
Pete
--
Peter Maley
SL, 3rd Whitstable
ESL, Tombstones ESU
Mike Swann
"Eddie Langdown" <the3...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:d7v2f5$oqc$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch...
weather and a bit scary.'
>
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
>
circumstances?
Eddie Langdown
> From the info given above the leader has followed the rules in all
> aspects, as long as he's a permit holder and issued a passport to the
> Scout in charge. He checked on them, was in the locality and could be
> contacted. No problem there that I can see.
Yep, he issued a Passport and a DC visited at some point.
Eddie
Ewan Scott
> to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the bigger tent, 'As
> it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
>
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
It wasn't wrong and it wasn't unacceptable - so long as they all had their
own sleeping bags.
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
That would be wrong and unacceptable.
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
That might invite trouble :-)
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
Actually in the curcumstances you describe it is okay for anyone. Though i
wouldn't make a habit of it. I think they behaved correctly and sensibly.
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
Have a chat with them and explain why the issue could cause concern for some
people and why it could create problems for some people. But do not tell
them it was wrong - cos they will only make sure they do it again - and you
won't find out next time.
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
No. Tell them that you are aware and that it wasn't ideal and you'd rather
it didn't happen except in extenuating circumstances.
I can recall one camp going round to wake folk up and finding all the tents
bar one empty. Everyone had piled into one patrol tent - from 10 year olds
to 19 year olds. No real isue as far as i was concrned.
Ewan Scott
>
> Other thoughts?
> Eddie
>
>
Grant Mitchell
"Paul Harris" <nos...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eD7Yluuu...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
I agree with you Paul. The Scouts made a sensible decision in the
circumstances to make themselves more comfortable. They obviously didn't
consider it to be a problem, and assuming that their parents hadn't
indicated in advance that they wouldn't approve of such an arrangement, then
I don't see any problem. Probably if Scouts hadn't known each other well,
they wouldn't have chosen this arrangement.
My only slight doubt is whether the leader should have foreseen this, as the
plan was to have one girl sleeping alone on the second night. IME, Scouts
rarely like to sleep alone and will avoid it if there is another option. So
the situation described was foreseeable and it might have been wise to
ascertain whether any of the parents was likely to have a problem with it.
However, that smacks rather of hindsight and I would suggest that nothing
was wrong and no action is needed.
Grant
SL, 1st Disley
Martin Whelan
is my personal opinion. I don't know how the parents would react, and
would never attempt to second guess there view. I can think of examples,
and I am sure anyone reading or writing on this group can think of times
when people they know reacted in a totally unexpected way.
Personally I would take the line of telling the parents at the first
opportunity, as any fall out is then a lot easier to manage. If I
thought it was likely to be an issue, i.e. parents complaining I would
contact my GSL and DC to prime them. In the past in Scouting roles I
have let things (not like this) drift, and one or two are still issues
today 2/3 years on which could have possibly been killed their and then
and probably forgotten about!
Martin
walsallwizard
(Eddie Langdown) wrote:
Nothing wrong was done imho but no doubt someone will take issue with
it, whilst camping this weekend I observed boys, girls, men, women all
sharing tents in any different permutation and didn't give it a
thought .
Perhaps what is wrong is that we know someone will think it is wrong
that YP at 13 & 14 share a tent, if they were 23 & 24 would it be
thought wrong then?
Richard
CSL 1st Kirklevington
Shaun Joynson
> I am seriously interested to hear people's views on the following
> situation;
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
Thats my view.
In my last troop before switching to Beavers, we did not have seperate
tents for boys and girls because they did not want it.
What did we expect them to get up to?
Well, not a lot really, because having them all piled in together meant
they regulated each other.
And they did not. We never had a problem with it.
Now, stick em in separate tents and put them apart from each other and
then watch your problems mount.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Dave
Firstly I think that it should be noted that there is absolutely no rule
that says that males and females should not sleep together, in fact there is
a fact sheet giving advice on the subject; so that rules out some of your
notes above.
The only "problem" if there is one is that normally it should have been
discussed beforehand with the young people and the parents concerned.
That fact that it has happened is now too late for that, so what are the
options?
If you try to hide the fact either way that is clearly wrong - the leader is
in a position whereby they could come in for some critisism from some
parents (possibly in this case the strict ones - but possibly the others
too).
Personally, I think that the best way forward is talk to the parents about
it, explaining why it happened and hope that works but if not then accept
the flack that may be forthcoming.
DaveB
West Yorks
Stephen Rainsbury
know but would try to phrase it that I was happy that they made a very
sensible and adult decison and were mature enough to be able to discuss
it openly.
I wouldn't for one moment think that anything happened to cause real
concern, or they would have kept quiet, but you havn't done anything
wrong and neither have they, I hope the parents see it that way.
---
SBR
Micheal Artindale
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
>
> Other thoughts?
Do #s 1,3,5,6
You never told them that it was not ok. Had you told them, then go directly
to the parents.
If that happened to me, I would make it a point that the next camp I do with
them, when covering the camp rules to cover the "no mixed sexes in tents."
The odd thing, we are coed in our activities, but not in the rest. (sleeping
and such.) I understand why, and would want it changed, but things like this
were bound to happen when you mix boys and girls of that age.
Micheal
Canada
Manky Badger
As a leader I realise that these things happen, and I am sure it was all
100% innocent.
However as a parent I'm sure that if it were MY daughter, I'd lay an egg !
GAGS
> snip
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
So who's saying it was wrong? No one as far as I can see. No rules were
broken. It isn't a situation where there is a right or wrong.
Was it unacceptable? Depends. Do you have a clear policy on sleeping
arrangements? Most sections will have one that says sharing the same
bed/sleeping bag is not on unless it's an emergency (e.g. survival
situation). Most sections will also probably have a policy or practice of
separate sleeping arrangements (i.e. separate dorms/tents) for most
occasions, however, this will be varied from time to time. What happens if a
mixed party is caught out late by the weather say and has to overnight in a
single room bothy/hut? You surely don't tell the boys they have to sleep
outside! What happens if one of the tents gets damaged? Do some of the party
have to sleep in the open? No! The policy may be to plan for separate
sleeping arrangments, but circumstances can often overtake these.
In this instance the decision was made by the kids. They have to take
responsibility for their actions. Unless you've specifically told them not
to do what they did then there's not a lot you can do (or even should do!)
If their parents told them not to do it then they have to answer to their
parents. If there isn't a leader present then there's not a lot anyone can
do. If they're responsible enough to be left on their own then they're
responsible enough for their actions.
Do you find it unacceptable?
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
Why? Why make an issue out of something which clearly does not seem to be an
issue?
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
Why? What's the issue? Have the parents specifically told you that there
must be separate sleeping arrangements? If not then there's no issue on that
point to take up with the parents.
Do you believe something else happened? I don't believe you did so again no
issue.
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
Unless you or parents make a point of insisting on separate sleeping
arrangements then I don't see that there is a specific issue.
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
Do nothing because there's nothing to do.
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
But what could the leader have done about it?
>
> Other thoughts?
If you give the kids responsibilities then you have to trust them to
exercise those responsibilities responsibly. If you find that they haven't
done so and they have put you in a difficult/awkward position then you have
an issue that needs attention. But if they have been responsible then there
isn't an issue.
You can't watch over them 24/7. Train and trust.
GAGS
Stephen Rainsbury
>
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
I take it that you issued an event passport? If so you have shown
trust and they seem to have honoured that trust, you can't tell them
off for it.
---
SBR
Eddie Langdown
And, no I didn't think i had got it wrong, and yes i did take them aside
and say that given their relationship and the circumstances, i was cool
with it.
I did add that I was not sanctioning mixed sleeping in the future except
in real emergencies, AND thast they needed to be very responsible as to
how they spoke about this to other scouts, non scouts and adults. Other
people might not see it my way and it could give them and the group a bad
name.
Yes the three parents are happy there is no issue but i intend to go and
see the other tomorrow, just in case they give their daughter a hard time.
I have heard many Venture/ Explorer people say that is that there is often
a sort of 'family taboo' when teenagers who have grown-up together mix in
this way, which is not the case when total srangers/ new members suddenly
join and may not share this 'personal respect'/ be less inhibited!
I was interested to see if anyone considered the situation it could put
some girls and boys in on future mixed hike camps, if mixed sleeping was
considered OK and pressure was put on members to go along with it, against
their will. I think a clear message that it is not alowed has to be got
over.
And yes, for all of us who say, 'there was nothing wrong', I agree with
Manky and wonder if we would be as cool if it were our daughter!
Thanks for your views...I value the comments.... it will happen to you
before you know it!
Eddie
Steve Hulka
Glad to hear it all worked out OK for you, good luck with the last set
of parents!
It raised an interesting point, as you say we're all going to have to
deal with this at some point soon.
It's easy to lay down the law and say "no mixed sleeping" but that may
not always be the right answer.
If you were in a situation where you have (say) four boys and one girl
camping, which is the "riskier" proposition? All five in the same tent,
or the girl on her own?
Discuss...
Steve
Stephen Rainsbury
> I have heard many Venture/ Explorer people say that is that there is often
> a sort of 'family taboo' when teenagers who have grown-up together mix in
> this way, which is not the case when total srangers/ new members suddenly
> join and may not share this 'personal respect'/ be less inhibited!
That is a good assesment, in my last VSU girls and boys normally slept
seperatly but it was not uncommon for an expedition to just have one
girl. On 2/3 day hikes I would sometimes meet them with a spare tent,
but for QSA they wouldn't normallly bother about sharing a tent.
Sometimes they would pair up for the whole time, on another they
decided that the girl would sleep with a differrent boy each night.
They made jokes about it, maybe there was a certain embarrasement
factor but as far as I am aware nothing ever happened on expeditions or
hikes.
> I was interested to see if anyone considered the situation it could put
> some girls and boys in on future mixed hike camps, if mixed sleeping was
> considered OK and pressure was put on members to go along with it, against
> their will. I think a clear message that it is not alowed has to be got
> over.
Yes it can put pressure iif its allowed to, I used to take the stance
that they only slept mixed if I said so and we had exhausted all other
possibilities. If faced with a 3+1 situation you have to open the
discussion to them, maybe even have a secret ballot.
> And yes, for all of us who say, 'there was nothing wrong', I agree with
> Manky and wonder if we would be as cool if it were our daughter!
>
> Thanks for your views...I value the comments.... it will happen to you
> before you know it!
It has already happened to my sons, but not my daughter, mind you she
is only 11 and has said a couple of times she would rather sleep in a
patrol tent with the boys than a hike tent by herslelf or make a girls
tent with other patrols.
My eldest was in a 4+1 situation and the girl actually asked if he
would share her tent as she didn't want to be alone, we knew about it,
spoke to her parents and they didn't want here alone in a strange
country either.
My second son was on a district hike 3+1 and one of the boys had to
pull out after day 1 with a bad ankle. We let the three continue alone
but made sure they had working phones and took some of their kit
including the girls tent, and she just shared with the boys. Her dad
was one of the assesors ad he was cool.
---
SBR
Mike Swann
"Manky Badger" <sp...@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote in message
news:d7vs0j$m9j$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
had an issue when she was that age. Trust! I suppose it all depends on the
circumstances and individuals.
I recently found myself in a position not too dissimilar (bearing in mind
I'm nearer 60 than 50) and it really wasn't an issue. I suppose it all
depends on the circumstances and individuals.
Stephen Rainsbury
I know I have metioned this before, but that is how I met my wife, the
first nigh we spent together was in a hike tent on a scout event. This
caused a slight problem later when sh bacame a Venture scout and I was
VSL!
---
SBR
Eddie Langdown
> Eddie
> Discuss...
> Steve
Good point. It's ok all these are leaders taking a liberal view ( and I'm
one) but gossip can wreck organisations. How many leaders can actually put
their hands up to knowing that scouts (under 15's) sleep together on
occasions? Also, I was thinking last night that young people deserve the
right to privacy, especially girls going through puberty. I am guessing my
kids all slept in their clothes..... but coming-up through the same troop
I have a few boys and girls who are so rude and lacking self discipline
(at present) that I would hesitate letting them hike without an adult...
let alone in a mixed group. I have had nothing but possative results from
running a fully mixed troop these past 2 years... but that is not to say
that it hasn't had to be worked at... especially around 'recognising
difference and diversity', personal respect and language etc.
As part of the 25 mile hike camp we had a 'rest day' next to an all white
male troop who spent from morning to night in very noisy, very physical
rough and tumble.... 'survival of the fittest'... I am pleased they
enjoyed it. During the same period we had managed conversation, tree
recognition, a run, assult course, peddal carts, map & compass
refreshing.... something for everyone. As our scouts hiked-off one of
these louts shouted 'good-bye you dicks' , a couple of us were about to go
back but the 15 year old leading our group, a tall dignified Siera Leone
girl, said, "Please don't... it's just not worth it." She was right.. and
they slipped-away into the beautiful countryside.
Eds
Ewan Scott
> 100% innocent.
>
> However as a parent I'm sure that if it were MY daughter, I'd lay an egg !
>
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
"Martin Whelan" <martin...@free-stater.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7vd0j$mfc$1...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Personally I have no issues with this occuring in an emergency, but that
> is my personal opinion. I don't know how the parents would react, and
> would never attempt to second guess there view. I can think of examples,
> and I am sure anyone reading or writing on this group can think of times
> when people they know reacted in a totally unexpected way.
You can get some unpredictable reactions, that is true.
> Personally I would take the line of telling the parents at the first
> opportunity, as any fall out is then a lot easier to manage. If I
> thought it was likely to be an issue, i.e. parents complaining I would
> contact my GSL and DC to prime them. In the past in Scouting roles I
> have let things (not like this) drift, and one or two are still issues
> today 2/3 years on which could have possibly been killed their and then
> and probably forgotten about!
I'd advise the DC if i thought there might be an issue, but I would not go
and speak to the parents unless I really had to.
When we work with young people we do so as a point of contact that is NOT
their school teacher, is NOT their parent. We need to build a trusting
relationship where they can feel free to talk and act as individuals. As
soon as we start talking to parents about what happened on a Scout activity
we risk breaching that trust. I know that there are things we have done on
camp that the Scouts never tell their parents and i know that there are
things they have done that i would never tell their parents either. Some
things are best left alone.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
> Manky and wonder if we would be as cool if it were our daughter!
Been there, not an issue - anyone messing with my lass would get their
bollocks handed to them on a plate for breakfast.... by her :-)
Ewan Scott
Dave
"Chris" <dob...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d813lc$24sh$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch...
> [snip]
> > My only slight doubt is whether the leader should have foreseen this, as
> > the plan was to have one girl sleeping alone on the second night.
>
girls
> and 2 boys (and 2 tents).
>
> It does open up the question of what you do if there is only one girl (and
> several boys - or visa versa) on the expedition.
Exactly the same - talk it over with the yp and their parents beforehand to
decide on the best way to proceed. If it is found to be better that the
"sinleton" sleeps alone then so be it, if thought better that they are all
together then so be it.
>Not one I've had to answer
> / think to much about yet as my Troop is still single sex, but something
> we're going to have to think about in a couple of years.
>
Just open and frank discussion between those involved.
> --C
>
DaveB
West Yorks
Steve Smith
> When we work with young people we do so as a point of contact that is NOT
> their school teacher, is NOT their parent. We need to build a trusting
> relationship where they can feel free to talk and act as individuals. As
> soon as we start talking to parents about what happened on a Scout activity
> we risk breaching that trust. I know that there are things we have done on
> camp that the Scouts never tell their parents and i know that there are
> things they have done that i would never tell their parents either. Some
> things are best left alone.
Interesting. I'd like to explore that a little further. I agree with
what you say to a point, but I think there has to be a line beyond
which we have to break that bond of trust and involve the parents.
Let's change Eddie's real life example a bit, and assume that the
leader had somehow found out that the Scouts had actually slept
boy-girl, boy-girl in two tents, and that two of them had had sex.
Presumably at that point you would tell the parents? Where in your
opinion does the line lie?
Steve.
walsallwizard
Slightly off tangent but a Scouting colleague asked my advice when one
of his Female explorers had told him that she watched soft porn with
her parents(The Red Shoe Diaries). My initial reaction was that this
was wrong then I thought about it and realised my reaction was a
knee-jerk reaction brought about by societies constraints. The girl in
question is over 16 and her parents were obviously comfortable with
this, I then thought of the things my kids get to see, on TV, movies,
newspapers, magazines etc and some of this can be very adult. Sex and
sexuality are there all the while and we think nothing of it.
Now in this instance would I have been happy with my son or daughter
sharing a tent with a member of the opposite sex, yes I would be.
I have ensured that my children are educated about sex and what is and
what is acceptable behaviour but we are talking about children under
our supervision and not potential sexual behaviour.
I am happy for Scouts to share tents with members of the opposite sex
but we do have to realise some parents would "lay an egg" if it were
their child involved they are possibly the same parents that would lay
a clutch of eggs if their child decides that they are gay later in
life.
Take the sexual implications out of the entire issue and what happened
4 Scouts made a decision about sharing a tent to ensure their safety,
whether they be physical or psychological reasons the decision must be
applauded.
Richard
CSL 1st Kirklevington
Dave Mayall
news:d7v2f5$oqc$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch...
> The next day when everyone met-up the four said quite openly and casually
> to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the bigger tent, 'As
> it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
>
> 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
No, because it isn't
> 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
No, because that implies (1), but that we are all going to keep it secret.
> 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
Possibly, but not to the extent that you make a special journey to see the
parents. Just mention it next time you see them if you think it appropriate.
> 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
It's OK, providing all the kids are happy with it.
> 5. So what?....Do nothing?
Yup, that's the one. They have done nothing wrong.
> 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
No, because it isn't.
> Other thoughts?
If any funny business was going to happen, it sure as hell wouldn't happen
in a mixed tent of four people!
Chris
> My only slight doubt is whether the leader should have foreseen this, as
> the plan was to have one girl sleeping alone on the second night.
Not quite what the OP said - there were 3 girls, one left, so still 2 girls
and 2 boys (and 2 tents).
It does open up the question of what you do if there is only one girl (and
several boys - or visa versa) on the expedition. Not one I've had to answer
/ think to much about yet as my Troop is still single sex, but something
we're going to have to think about in a couple of years.
--C
GAGS
"Dave Mayall" <da...@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3gik5uF...@individual.net...
> "Eddie Langdown" <the3...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:d7v2f5$oqc$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch...
>
> > The next day when everyone met-up the four said quite openly and
casually
> > to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the bigger tent, 'As
> > it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
> >
> > 1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
>
> No, because it isn't
It is unacceptable if a parent categorically states that their child should
sleep in separate sex accommodation and the leader blatantly ignores this
and supports or plans mixed sleeping. If the yp ignore the wishes of their
parents and leader and there's nothing a leader can do about it (because
they're not there 24/7) then that's not the fault of the leader. A leader
can only follow the wishes of parents so far as is reasonably practicable.
In this case there was definitely nothing wrong and neither was it seemingly
unacceptable.
>
> > 2. Tell them not to tell anyone ?
>
> No, because that implies (1), but that we are all going to keep it secret.
Correct. It's making a wrong out of something that isn't wrong.
>
> > 3. Make a point of telling the parents?
>
> Possibly, but not to the extent that you make a special journey to see the
> parents. Just mention it next time you see them if you think it
appropriate.
Correct. The important bit is 'IF' it's appropriate to mention it. In this
case I see no reason to do so.
>
> > 4. It's OK for these kids who are good friends, but not for others ?
>
> It's OK, providing all the kids are happy with it.
And that the Leader and parents are happy or at least don't oppose it.
>
> > 5. So what?....Do nothing?
>
> Yup, that's the one. They have done nothing wrong.
Correct course of action. No need to brew a storm in a teacup.
>
> > 6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
>
> No, because it isn't.
Correct.
>
> > Other thoughts?
>
> If any funny business was going to happen, it sure as hell wouldn't happen
> in a mixed tent of four people!
Highly unlikely!
Mixed sleeping arrangements is an issue that leaders do need to be aware of.
One doesn't need to make a big issue of it, but just be aware of the
sensitivities of all (yp, leaders and parents) involved. In most cases where
it does occur it's a non-issue.
The few occasions when I've caught a couple of lads sheepishly sneaking out
of a girls tent early in the morning have only required fixing the lads with
a stern look of displeasure and a quiet word along the lines of: 'Don't let
me down again. Now seeing as you two are up early and keen to get going you
can get dressed, washed, and report to the mess tent and help me prepare
breakfast'.
GAGS
Tim Jones
We had this situation with 8 boys and 1 girl on a narrowboat, I was
prepared to offer her a cabin on her own if it was wanted. Her dad
helped with transport to the trip, installed her in the boys cabin
and (quite riightly IMO) informed us that it would unfair
discrimination to single her out in a cabin on her own. It did of
course mean that we had to offer the other cabin to any boys who were
unhappy with mixed sleeping. As long as they have sperate changing
facilities and the option of seperate tents, mixed accomodation (not
couples in a tent on their own) rewally shouldn't be an issue.
One further observation. We took scouts on a Thames Sailing Barge
trip one girl shared a cabin with 7 boys with the prior knowledge of
her mum. All well and good until we got back and the local paper ran
a feature on the trip, the reporter knew the girl and asked her about
the trip. The report therefore contained her quote that it was great
sharing a cabin with 7 boys! I almost died of horror and awaited the
doubtless hostile reaction with bated breath! In our small fairly
conservative minded rural market town no-one has even batted an eyelid
;) Could it just possibly be that we are a bit too hung up over this
ourselves? We have to be aware of the possible issues, but our own
over concern may just be every bit as guilty of sparking a hostile
reaction to this issue as anything that someone outside Scouting could
ever say.
regards
Tim Jones
Tim Jones
<absolutec...@craplineone.net> wrote:
>The few occasions when I've caught a couple of lads sheepishly sneaking out
>of a girls tent early in the morning have only required fixing the lads with
>a stern look of displeasure and a quiet word along the lines of: 'Don't let
>me down again. Now seeing as you two are up early and keen to get going you
>can get dressed, washed, and report to the mess tent and help me prepare
>breakfast'.
A man after my own heart, never thought I'd say that about GAGS has
someone hijacked his identity ;)
I assume that you also work on the principle that if they're not
sheepish then theres unliely to be a lot to be stern about?
Broooz
news:oRMoe.1154$ls3...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Manky Badger" <sp...@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote in
> message
> news:d7vs0j$m9j$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> !
> OK, possibly my daughter is older than yours, but I don't think I would
> have
> had an issue when she was that age. Trust! I suppose it all depends on
> the
> circumstances and individuals.
>
Agreed - if you can't trust your own daughter to make the right decisions,
then segregation isn't going to work anyway.
This thread sounds way to sexist for my liking. Why are some people unhappy
about a girl and a boy in a tent but happy about 2 boys? Ideally you want
more than two in a tent and by the time you get to four, it is unlikely, but
not impossible, that anything untoward would happen.
Manky Badger
"Ewan Scott" <ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:d80v8q$jv5$2...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Because that's the way I am.
No matter how reasoned the explanations might be, I know that I would not be
at all happy with what was explained. Old fashioned prejudices, I suppose.
GAGS
"Tim Jones" <wilde...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:42a4350f...@news.btinternet.com...
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:00:23 +0100, "GAGS"
> <absolutec...@craplineone.net> wrote:
>
>
> >The few occasions when I've caught a couple of lads sheepishly sneaking
out
> >of a girls tent early in the morning have only required fixing the lads
with
> >a stern look of displeasure and a quiet word along the lines of: 'Don't
let
> >me down again. Now seeing as you two are up early and keen to get going
you
> >can get dressed, washed, and report to the mess tent and help me prepare
> >breakfast'.
>
> A man after my own heart, never thought I'd say that about GAGS has
> someone hijacked his identity ;)
Er...don't think so. Let's just check...balding...short...fat...55 year
old...nope GAGS is still GAGS.
>
> I assume that you also work on the principle that if they're not
> sheepish then theres unliely to be a lot to be stern about?
Nope. If I've said to yp that separate sleeping arrangements mean precisely
that then there's always a reason to look stern in this instance principally
because they've let me down by ignoring my rules/advice/guidance. The fact
that they were up late yapping on and on in another tent/dorm is almost
secondary.
A leader has a difficult job balancing responsibilities to yp, parents,
scouting, themselves, etc., and yp need to be told that sometimes their
selfish thoughtless actions can put that balance at risk and make the job
even more difficult.
Me giving them the 'evil eye' is the reminder they sometimes need! Sheepish
or not they'll always get it.
What I won't have put about is the thought that mixed sleeping and what they
get up to is a unilateral decision for the yp and anything leaders say can
just be ignored...which after a little 'salt & pepper' from the rumour mill
turns into...the 123rd positively encourages mixed sleeping irrespective of
what parents say...add a little more...at the 123rd they all just sleep
around and the leaders dont care...add a little more...the 123rd have camps
which are nothing short of an orgy...and a final dash in the umpteenth
schoolyard...Vicky at the 123rd is expecting triplets and Gareth is now
called the Anytown Stud. :-)
GAGS
Tim Jones
I'd expect them too look sheepish, if had specified seperate sleeping
arrangements, in which case a stern look would be well in order and
they would not need to be told what it was for. They tend to look
sheepish if they feel they've betrayed a leaders trust as I believe
they have a clear understanding of the benefits of being trustworthy.
I would feel uneasy about too stern an approach if all I had offered
was advice or guidance as they would IMO have been left to make a
decision based on interpretation of that advice and within reason
should be supported in that decision and maybe offered further
advice.if necessary.
GAGS
> >Nope. If I've said to yp that separate sleeping arrangements mean
precisely
> >that then there's always a reason to look stern in this instance
principally
> >because they've let me down by ignoring my rules/advice/guidance. The
fact
> >that they were up late yapping on and on in another tent/dorm is almost
> >secondary.
>
> I'd expect them too look sheepish, if had specified seperate sleeping
> arrangements, in which case a stern look would be well in order and
> they would not need to be told what it was for.
Agree.
> They tend to look
> sheepish if they feel they've betrayed a leaders trust as I believe
> they have a clear understanding of the benefits of being trustworthy.
Agree.
> I would feel uneasy about too stern an approach if all I had offered
> was advice or guidance as they would IMO have been left to make a
> decision based on interpretation of that advice and within reason
> should be supported in that decision and maybe offered further
> advice.if necessary.
See we actually do agree on lots of things, but it would be a boring ng if
we agreed on everything!
Yes. it all about effecting a balance in one's approach. In the vast
majority of cases it's doesn't need an ott response. All you want to get
across is: 'I've said this. I have my reasons for saying it. You ignored
them. It's not something I'm going to go on about, but make sure you don't
do it again.' Kids will rebel, but in the vast majority of cases where no
harm is done the rebellion can be put down by a quiet word or two. Most kids
will also learn from it and that's a good thing.
Mixed sleeping is one of those things where leaders learn from experience
and sort of softly plot their way through the various issues. In most cases
4 yp, 2 of each sex, sharing a tent is done in all innocence either for
practicalities, friendship, or just to carry on talking way after lights
out, and they probably all just fall asleep where they are at some God
forsaken hour of the early morning.
The problems only arise when innocence in the eyes of the yp is not that in
the eyes of leaders, parents and other adults. We all have different views
and as a leader you have to balance those and apply things sensitively.
Piggy-in-the-middle!
If a parent says I don't want my child in a mixed sleeping arrangement then
as a leader you have to either accept that or try to allay any fears the
parent might have and change their mind. Me, personally, If I couldn't
change the parent's view then I would accept their wishes, even if their
son/daughter wished otherwise. It's a toughie, but my concern would be that
the parent could cause far more trouble than the yp. And trouble is what you
want to avoid! But strong issues in this area very rarely crop up especially
if a leader has built a good working relationship with parents, and most do.
What would I advise any leader on this issue? Just be aware of
sensitivities. If one's unsure then go for the 'fail-safe' separate
arrangement. If this is impractical (maybe a mixed group on an expedition)
then just make sure parents know the score before setting things in stone,
listen to what's said, and adapt if necessary. Don't ever explode it into a
major issue, because it just isn't! Sensitively and quietly and things get
sorted easily.
There again I've never had a troop/unit comprising half a dozen Vicky
Pollards! :-)
Have you?
GAGS
Ewan Scott
"Steve Smith" <steve...@unforgettable.com> wrote in message
news:1118048169.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
No - I wouldn't tell the parents. What I would do though is read the riot
act - big time.
I have always made it quite clear that Scout activities are not the place
for cementing emotional relationships with physical activity - be that
kissing and cuddling, rolling about in the hay or having sex.
My policy is that we operate a mixed sex group and we depend upon young
people being fed into the group at beavers and Cubs and coming through
Scouts and Explorers. Irrespective of what parents of Explorers allow or
condone, the simple fact is that the behaviour of the Scouts and Explorers
impacts on the way parents consider the Group as a whole. If they think that
Explorers is about mixed sex camping and shagging in the woods, then they
will not expose their little darlings to that sort of behaviour and they
will not join the Group.
If a couple are having sex at home condoned by both sets of parents, that is
fine by me, however, when they come to camp they refrain or go home. It can
be embarassing and awkward for others, it creates tensions, and it
generates, even in this promiscuous age, a bad reputation for the Group.
So, if they were to have sex on camp, it would be quite clearly outside the
rules of the Group (call it my ownm local rule if you like) and they would
receive a serious bollocking for that breach of trust. They would also get a
serious lecture on sex education, and presuming the tent used was a hike
tent, they would get the tent to clean thoroughly at the first available
meeting. And yes I've had to do it.
Did I tell their parents? No. I didn't need to. What would it have achieved?
Why this policy?
We were running a camp with another group of kids. One of the girls, a
pretty, well developed 14 year old who enjoyed the attention of boys was
giving off all the signals that she was "up for it". If there had been a
rape I would have had to say as a witness to her behaviour that she was
inviting attention. I spoke to her about it and she went in the huff but
spent more time with these lads. Things got so bad that an older,
promiscuous girl refused to be left alone in the hall with this group of
lads. I spoke to the 14 year old again, and warned her more bluntly. Two of
my Ventures explained what the lads were planning in words that even a moron
could understand. She continued to mix with these lads. Then they dragged
her into a room, started groping her and trying Gop knows what they had in
mind. I stepped in with an appropriate level of threat and removed the girl
to a place of safety. Given her failure to respond to my, and others'
warnings I spoke to her mother suggesting that maybe she ought to have a
word with her about the intentions of young lads in puberty.
I received dog's abuse and denial from both mother and daughter and the
mother refused to speak to me for over a year. The daughter for six months.
On another ocassion I had to speak to a mother about her daughter's
behaviour with an adult leader and again got dog's abuse.
So what does this informing the parent achieve? In my experience it gains
the informer a good earful of abuse and the loss of trust not only of the
persons informed upon, but also of their peers.
Coming back to my 14 year old, she is still with us, and so is her latest
boyfriend who is interested in joining as a Networker - both are over 18.
When I met him when he first came down we had a chat about CRB forms and I
explained what they were for. Then he said, and XXX has explained the
situation with relationships here and it's not a problem, I can understand
where you're coming from and we'll keep intimacy for elsewhere.
Ewan Scott
Tim Jones
<absolutec...@craplineone.net> wrote:
>There again I've never had a troop/unit comprising half a dozen Vicky
>Pollards! :-)
>
>Have you?
No and rightly and wrongly I suspect I never would, I doubt that the
type of programme we run would keep the first 5 in a troop/unit for
long enough for a 6th to join ;)
Also I find it hard to keep more than 1 attention seekers of any sex
in a troop/unit for very long before they rub one another up the wrong
way and one leaves. It doesn't tend to come to a head in scouting
activities but it's often a punch up at school or elsewhere. I have
recently been wondering whether this is a fault in my abilities as a
leader or a blessing in disguise.
Regards
Tim Jones
Eddie Langdown
bottom of the page....
When I started it .. i was clearly imagining that boy and girl scouts
sleeping in the same tent would be a total no no.... and had been shocked
to discover it happening in my troop last week. I guess i am a bit narrow
minded and imagined the danger of kids automatically diving into each
others beds and of orgies... Clearly not. Some leaders even clear mixed
sleeping arangements it in advance with parents...
Last night I went to visit the parents of the 13 year old African girl,
who I thought might give her a hard time... she had mentioned it to them
and they seemed surprised that i had bothered to call. HOWEVER, on the
way I had stopped at a friend/ parent of a younger scout and quietly
mentioned the incident. She said that her daughter had told her that boys
had 'fallen asleep' in their tent during summer camp last year......
Always the last to know....
Thanks again to everyone for broadening my mind....
Eddie
Ewan Scott
"Manky Badger" <sp...@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote in message
learn from my mistakes - and those of others and I have to accept that since
I am both a parent and a Leader I need to be even handed> I need to considr
that if I lay an egg with my daughter, I have to do it with everyone. I have
to try and see things from their point of view.
Ewan Scott
Simon Hawkins
> "Eddie Langdown" <the3...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:d7v2f5$oqc$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch...
>
>>situation;
>>
>>Five scouts, three girls and a two boys are on a hike camp, all aged 13,
>>one of the girls 14. They have a 3 person tent, a 2 person tent and a
>>nylon 'tarp' for storing kit/ cooking.... Just before the second night
>>one girl leaves as planned. When the leader visits about 6pm there was
>>only one other (unconnected) adult & son camping on the small wooded scout
>>owned site. It is a horrible damp evening, but the 4 scouts are together
>>in the bigger tent chatting and laughing innocently, having just made a
>>percussion orchestra out of lids, pegs, poles, packets etc.... After
>>checking they had everything they needed, were clearly happy and were
>>clear about the next day's route, the leader left. He was camping a about
>>a mile away, with younger scouts on a different site. Both had working
>>mobile phones.
>>
>>All four youngsters get on well together, have known each other since
>>junior school and cubs, the parents of three are quite close, except the
>>parents of an African girl, who are quite strict.
>>
>>to the leader that they had all decided to sleep in the bigger tent, 'As
>>it was horrible weather and a bit scary.'
>>
>>1. Tell them it was 'wrong' and unacceptable?
>>6. Tell the leader it is unacceptable?
>>
>>Eddie
>>
>>
>
>
> Firstly I think that it should be noted that there is absolutely no rule
> that says that males and females should not sleep together, in fact there is
> a fact sheet giving advice on the subject; so that rules out some of your
> notes above.
>
> The only "problem" if there is one is that normally it should have been
> discussed beforehand with the young people and the parents concerned.
>
> That fact that it has happened is now too late for that, so what are the
> options?
>
> If you try to hide the fact either way that is clearly wrong - the leader is
> in a position whereby they could come in for some critisism from some
> parents (possibly in this case the strict ones - but possibly the others
> too).
>
> Personally, I think that the best way forward is talk to the parents about
> it, explaining why it happened and hope that works but if not then accept
> the flack that may be forthcoming.
>
> DaveB
> West Yorks
>
>
Sorry I wasn't able to find the factsheet, would you be able to point
out where it is.
Thanks
Simon Hawkins
ACSL 1st Purley & Pangbourne
--
Simon Hawkins
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