Chris Wilkinson - important information
Alan Freeman
Nottingham Evening Post reports follows:-
Tuesday 21 November 2000
PARISH CLERK STOLE FOR AFRICAN SCOUTS - CLAIM
---------------------------------------------
By Ian Drury
A trusted council clerk siphoned off thousands of pounds of taxpayers'
cash to buy computer equipment for African Scouts, a jury was told.
Christopher Wilkinson, 54, misused more than £13,000 of Farnsfield
Parish Council's funds, it was claimed yesterday at Nottingham Crown
Court.
On one occasion he used council money to buy a state-of-the art scanner
which he sent to the Scouting Association of Uganda, it was alleged.
Wilkinson, a prominent figure in the Notts. Scouting movement, also
organised jamborees for foreign boys using taxpayers' cash, the jury
heard.
He managed to deceive councillors because they trusted him "implicitly",
the court heard.
He had been the parish's clerk and finance officer for about 20 years.
Wilkinson, of Woodland Close, Farnsfield, pleaded not guilty to 12
counts of deception, two charges of false accounting and two thefts
between 1997 and 1999.
Stuart Lody, prosecuting, described Wilkinson as a man of good
character.
But he said: "Nevertheless, he is a man who has behaved in a dishonest
fashion and a man who has broken a large degree of trust placed in him
by the parish and the councillors of Farnsfield."
Mr Lody said that the clerk falsified council financial accounts to
"cover up the fact he had siphoned off funds for activities of his own".
This included buying equipment for a Scout jamboree in Britain, to which
he invited teenagers from Uganda and Russia, it was alleged.
The court was told that Wilkinson carried out the deception by getting
councillors to approve an authentic list of payments in Farnsfield,
including electricity bills or repairs to the village hall.
But he wrote cheques for higher amounts, which included the cost of his
own purchases, said Mr Lody. He said: "Such was the level of trust
imposed by councillors in the defendant that his word was always taken
for granted."
One councillor aired suspicions that they were being tricked but he was
"met with disapproval", said Mr Lody.
Wilkinson paid for a computer monitor and electronic scanner to do
council work.
Police later discovered the scanner had been transported to Uganda for
use by African Scouts, it was claimed.
Mr Lody said: "It is inconceivable that Farnsfield Parish Council would
in any way condone the transmission of one of its pieces of property to
a foreign country to be used by a group of people which had nothing to
with the council.
"But they did have something to do with this defendant who was very
involved in running Scout movements and holding jamborees for Scouts
from other countries."
Parish council member Councillor John Bradbury said he had trusted
Wilkinson "implicitly".
Wilkinson's alleged thefts came to light after the district auditor
found discrepancies in the books for 1997-98.
The fraud squad was called in to investigate and Wilkinson was suspended
by the council.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday 22 November
SHAME OF DISGRACED COUNCIL CLERK
--------------------------------
By Ian Drury
Disgraced council clerk Christopher Wilkinson dramatically admitted
deception after hearing evidence he siphoned off thousands of pounds of
taxpayers' money to fund Scouting activities.
Wilkinson, 54, had pleaded not guilty to misusing more than £14,000 of
Farnsfield Parish Council's funds.
He denied fiddling council cash to buy cookers, kitchen utensils,
flagpoles, flags and lamps for use at international Scout camps.
But the prominent figure in Notts Scouting changed his plea after jurors
at Nottingham Crown Court heard evidence from parish council chairman
Geoff Stafford.
Wilkinson admitted four counts of deception, costing £4,667, and two
charges of false accounting.
Ten charges have been ordered to lie on file — including one of stealing
a hi-tech computer scanner, which was later sent to the Scouting
association in Uganda, east Africa.
The offences took place between 1997 and 1999.
Coun Stafford said he had been duped by his clerk, whom he had "trusted
implicitly".
He was fooled into signing cheques worth up to £1,600 after seeing
accounts, drafted by Wilkinson, suggesting the amounts were several
hundred pounds smaller.
The cost of a cooker, according to council documents, was £127.50; the
cheque, unchecked when signed by Coun Stafford, was made out for
£1,527.50.
Later, Wilkinson, of Woodland Close, Farnsfield, got a doctored account
sheet signed. Coun Stafford told the court: "I trusted him.
"I classed him as a friend.
"Because he had been doing the job for 20 years I did not think he'd be
doing anything wrong.
"People like Chris have been using figures all the time. I earned my
living using my hands."
Invoices seized by detectives showed Wilkinson also bought a paella pan
and red-and-white striped barricade tape.
Stuart Lody, prosecuting, asked Coun Stafford: "Is there much paella
eaten in Farnsfield? Did you ever have a particular problem keeping
crowds back in the village?"
Coun Stafford replied the council did not, or would not, have ordered
such equipment.
The case has been adjourned for pre-sentence reports but Judge Ian
Collis hinted Wilkinson could be jailed. "These offences clearly relate
to items which could not have been of use to the council and are ones
purchased solely for the benefit of your Scouting activities," said the
judge.
After the hearing, Farnsfield parish councillor John Bradbury said he
was "pleased" with the outcome.
Wilkinson, who is divorced, was rumbled after the district auditor
expressed concerns over the council's accounts for 1997-1998.
Appointed to ensure public money is spent efficiently and correctly, the
auditor found several discrepancies in the books.
He arranged a meeting with Coun Stafford and Wilkinson and questioned
the hundreds of pounds worth of ink and paper ordered by the clerk,
whose office was at home.
Coun Stafford told the court: "He asked, ‘Why do you need so much. You
use more than the whole of Kelham Hall?' "
The fraud squad, led by Det Sgt Harry Parsonage, was called in and,
following a painstaking four-month investigation, charged Wilkinson.
The arrest sent shockwaves around Farnsfield, a small mining village in
north Notts. Not only was Wilkinson the parish clerk, he was also leader
of 1st Farnsfield Scouts.
He was suspended from his post as clerk and retired from the Scouts.
He craved having a prominent role in the Scouting movement — which led
to his downfall, said sources close to the investigation.
Many of the goods bought with money fiddled from the council were used
at international camps in Lancashire and Walesby, near Ollerton, for
Scouts from Uganda and Russia.
When Ugandan Scouts visited Farnsfield, the village streets were
bedecked with Ugandan flags.
This "generosity" impressed other Scout leaders, said the source, and
Wilkinson was happy to have his ego fuelled.
"Arrogant," was how one villager, who did not want to be named,
described him.
Some of the goods seized by police were returned to the council — but
they were useless to a small authority with tight budgets for grass-
cutting and rubbish bins.
Wilkinson's crimes were uncovered at almost the 11th hour.
He was due to start a new life in Uganda, where he had strong links
through the Scouting movement and which he visited every year.
He will be sentenced next month. (12th December)
--
Alan Freeman (No not that one!)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paul Ryan
of me, and found page 8 to be rather interesting. Readers here may find it
of interest.
Alan Freeman <steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8vgdob$g4v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Ten charges have been ordered to lie on file - including one of stealing
> He craved having a prominent role in the Scouting movement - which led
> to his downfall, said sources close to the investigation.
>
> Many of the goods bought with money fiddled from the council were used
> at international camps in Lancashire and Walesby, near Ollerton, for
> Scouts from Uganda and Russia.
>
> When Ugandan Scouts visited Farnsfield, the village streets were
> bedecked with Ugandan flags.
>
> This "generosity" impressed other Scout leaders, said the source, and
> Wilkinson was happy to have his ego fuelled.
>
> "Arrogant," was how one villager, who did not want to be named,
> described him.
>
> Some of the goods seized by police were returned to the council - but
Malcolm Yates
Travis Wilkinson who was formally the Group Scout Leader of 1st Farnsfield
Scout Group has not held any official or unofficial position within the 1st
Farnsfield Scout Group or the Nottinghamshire Scout Movement in any way
since his departure on the 31st July 1999. Nor will he ever be involved
again! To those of you who correspond within this news group it should be
noted that the copious advice given by Wilkinson upon scouting matters
should be taken in the knowledge that he is a convicted criminal.
Paul Ryan <pr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:s9TS5.3892$vA4....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Richard Bird
The man in NOT a convicted criminal if you bother to read the article
posted by Alan you will note sentencing will be in December.
The guy all though would seem to have done wrong (Not convicted yet)
was in my opinion trying to help those less off than himself - his
method though is not the method I would use. His intentions it would
seem were not for self gain but for that of our Brother & Sister Scouts
less fortunate than ourselves. I am sure those African and Russian
Scouts enjoyed themselves at the international camp and will have fond
and happy memories for the rest of there lives, have we all got
memories of an International camp that will remember for ever.
Finally you mention that those who read Mr Wilkinson's advise should
now read knowing his is a criminal - does this lessen his advise in
some way, I guess if he advises on money issues then maybe but the
report tells he has been for 20 years plus involved in Scouting. I
have always found his advise to be true and correct, I have never
personally received advise from him though.
If a murderer is good at painting a picture does this make her picture
any different knowing she is a murderer?
YIS
Richard Bird
Scouter from the South
PS Malcolm I like your e-mail address, exactly what is S&M Training??!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Yates <Mal...@smtraining.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: uk.rec.scouting
Sent: 22 November 2000 21:56
Subject: Re: Chris Wilkinson - important information
> I would like it to be known to all in the scouting movement that
Christopher
> Travis Wilkinson who was formally the Group Scout Leader of 1st
Farnsfield
> Scout Group has not held any official or unofficial position within
the 1st
> Farnsfield Scout Group or the Nottinghamshire Scout Movement in any
way
> since his departure on the 31st July 1999. Nor will he ever be
involved
> again! To those of you who correspond within this news group it
should be
> noted that the copious advice given by Wilkinson upon scouting matters
> should be taken in the knowledge that he is a convicted criminal.
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paul Ryan
see the back of the ar*eh*le.
Paul
ACSL - 1st Farnsfield and proud of it.
Malcolm Yates <Mal...@smtraining.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:974930201.24968.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
chri...@my-deja.com
room in Nottinghamshire, it needs to be remembered that Chris has
worked hard over a great number of years for the association as a whole
both locally, nationally and internally and was honoured by Scouting at
the recommendation of the County !
I count Chris as a friend, does friendship and support from fellow
leaders finish when someone has problems ? I quite often disagree with
my leaders but I do not need to resort to personal insults, there are
some that I do not like but it still does mean I insult them !!!! Do
two wrongs make a right !
Next time I`m in the village I will go out for a drink with Chris, and
probably a meal and have a chat about old times. He advise, friendship
and company, will still be as valued to me as ever, and he will still
be a friend !
Chris
Neil Williams
> Nice one Malcolm! Chris deserves all that he gets, and I will be glad to
> see the back of the ar*eh*le.
Oi! Can we have a little less of that please (regardless of what he may
or may not have done; personal insults have no place on this newsgroup).
Oh, and don't quote 5 screens of stuff to add a few lines, please.
Ta,
Neil
--
Please note new address, neil at the above address, without the cheese.
Mail to wensleydale is currently read, but may not be in the future.
Martin Sylvester
Not for the first time do I feel the need to respond to a posting by Paul
Ryan who now tells us he is ACSL in the very group that Chris ran
successfully for more than 15 years.
So we are expected to believe what is written in the local news paper are
we? SURE! I noticed that at no time is Chris's side of the story reported.
Paul and Malcolm, your actions in posting to the newsgroup disgust me. Have
you ever thought for one moment how un-scout like your actions are and in
your case Paul your language is not the sort of role model I would expect
from a Cub Scout Leader. You would both be taken severely to task if you
were in my District! You are *proud* to be ACSL 1st Farnsfield - Huh!
I tried late last night to contact Chris to offer him my personal support
and continued friendship but his phone was constantly engaged no doubt with
genuine Scouts doing likewise. I will make sure I get through to him today
so expect a call Chris.
Perhaps Paul and Malcolm you would do likewise instead of muck raking in
this most distatesful way.
Keep posting Chris.
Martin and Sue Sylvester
Mike Frost - Scdat
behaviour that I have come to expect from yobs. At this point, I could
simply have joined the "I'm outa here" group and withdrawn from this
NG. But that would have prevented me having any influence over what is
posted here. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation involving
Chris Wilkinson, I am absolutely sure that no-one involved in this NG
should be publicly vilifying him.
--
Mike Frost
District Adviser (Outdoor Activities), South Cotswold DSC
Alan Freeman
Richard Bird <richar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Malcolm,
>
> The man in NOT a convicted criminal if you bother to read the article
> posted by Alan you will note sentencing will be in December.
>
admission to the offences? He is an admitted criminal.
> The guy all though would seem to have done wrong (Not convicted yet)
> was in my opinion trying to help those less off than himself - his
> method though is not the method I would use. His intentions it would
> seem were not for self gain but for that of our Brother & Sister
Scouts
> less fortunate than ourselves. I am sure those African and Russian
> Scouts enjoyed themselves at the international camp and will have fond
> and happy memories for the rest of there lives, have we all got
> memories of an International camp that will remember for ever.
>
> Finally you mention that those who read Mr Wilkinson's advise should
> now read knowing his is a criminal - does this lessen his advise in
> some way, I guess if he advises on money issues then maybe but the
> report tells he has been for 20 years plus involved in Scouting. I
> have always found his advise to be true and correct, I have never
> personally received advise from him though.
But, how long has he been involved in fiddling?
>
> If a murderer is good at painting a picture does this make her picture
> any different knowing she is a murderer?
>
Scvouting in Farnsfield in particuklar and Notts as a whole will be
damaged by this case
I belive that the movement in Notts has had a severe body-blow with
this and should consider a damage limitation excercise - and that the
rest of the movement should back it wholeheartedly
>
> Richard Bird
> Scouter from the South
>
> PS Malcolm I like your e-mail address, exactly what is S&M
Training??!!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Malcolm Yates <Mal...@smtraining.demon.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: uk.rec.scouting
> Sent: 22 November 2000 21:56
> Subject: Re: Chris Wilkinson - important information
>
> > I would like it to be known to all in the scouting movement that
> Christopher
> > Travis Wilkinson who was formally the Group Scout Leader of 1st
> Farnsfield
> > Scout Group has not held any official or unofficial position within
> the 1st
> > Farnsfield Scout Group or the Nottinghamshire Scout Movement in any
> way
> > since his departure on the 31st July 1999. Nor will he ever be
> involved
> > again! To those of you who correspond within this news group it
> should be
> > noted that the copious advice given by Wilkinson upon scouting
matters
> > should be taken in the knowledge that he is a convicted criminal.
> >
> >
>
John Kennaugh
Malcolm Yates <Mal...@smtraining.demon.co.uk> writes
>I would like it to be known to all in the scouting movement that Christopher
>Travis Wilkinson who was formally the Group Scout Leader of 1st Farnsfield
>Scout Group has not held any official or unofficial position within the 1st
>Farnsfield Scout Group or the Nottinghamshire Scout Movement in any way
>since his departure on the 31st July 1999. Nor will he ever be involved
>again! To those of you who correspond within this news group it should be
>noted that the copious advice given by Wilkinson upon scouting matters
>should be taken in the knowledge that he is a convicted criminal.
In your haste to kick a man when he is down you forgot to sign it!
While I cannot in any way condone theft, even on behalf of a good cause,
I do feel that in judging a fellow Scout you should at least tinge your
condemnation with an expression of regret that one of our brothers
having done so much good over such a long period has fallen to
temptation and blown it. I don't know Chris but I suspect he will regret
his actions for the rest of his life without any help from you. I
suspect he has effectively wrecked his life and thrown away everything
that means anything to him.
To Chris I say 'what a silly thing to do' and offer the hand of
friendship.
--
John Kennaugh
"A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout no matter to
what country class or creed the other may belong" -BP version of Scout law.
Richard Bird
I agree with your comments, espically the quoted part below thats what
friends are for!!!
And Personal insults are just not Scouting, as I said before I suggest
his intension were not for self gain but to create happyness for other
alot less well off then we are in the UK.
YIS
Richard
In article <8vhnsb$frp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Cyber Scout
Mike F wrote:
> ...it is to kick a person when he's down. It's the sort of
> sickening behaviour that I have come to expect from yobs.
I agree, but- I don't agree with the overuse of the unscoutlike
term.
I composed a message for rec.scouting.usa in
response to Alan Freeman's multiple postings but it came
across all wrong so I didn't send it. It could have been
read as an attack on Alan, rather than a genuine question
as it was intended.
The Scouters at Chris's old group's desire to distance
themselves from Chris on a Scouting basis is understandable,
even if we don't condone the tone of it.
Alan I assume is someone who has been directly affected
by Chris's actions, whether as a local villager or
as someone in Scouting locally who's name is likely to
be blackened. I don't know what has driven him to
post this news to all the Scouting Newsgroups Chris has
posted to, I can only think it is because he is personally
hurt.
We must be careful not to condone the actions Chris has
admitted to when we offer our support. Some of the
messages could be misinterepreted as saying, "Oh
it doesn't really matter that he did XYZ because he
did it for Scouting" I'm sure that isn't what was meant.
Personally my respect for Chris has diminshed, but not
entirely disappeared. There isn't much you can
constructively say.
Marc
> So we are expected to believe what is written in the local news paper are
> we? SURE! I noticed that at no time is Chris's side of the story reported.
It did say that he admitted the offences. Are we meant to believe that a
newspaper would be that in accurate? I can understand that you may be
upset on the behalf of someone you know, but I think your reaction is a
bit hysterical. Surely you woudn't expect a news story to be buried to
save anyones blushes would you?
--
Marc
Printing for motorsport,car clubs,sports clubs and societies
http://www.jaceeprint.demon.co.uk/JACEEMOTORSPORTS.html
Marc
> I quite often disagree with
> my leaders but I do not need to resort to personal insults, there are
> some that I do not like but it still does mean I insult them !!!!
Are you reading the same messages as me? I can't see any insults in the
post you are replying to.
Tony Bryer
wrote:
> Nice one Malcolm! Chris deserves all that he gets, and I will be glad to
> see the back of the ar*eh*le.
Like some other posters I would wholeheartedly dissociate myself from this
sort of comment. Any press reporting of any scout leader acting in a less
than honourable manner (even as in this case apparently not for his own
benefit) reflects on all of us.
And one has to ask what was happening around the individual concerned. It
would appear that no one stopped to ask where the receipts were for the
equipment being sent to Uganda and where the money to pay for it had come
from. Obviously the guilt lies principally with one person, but it would
appear that he only got away with it because other people (both in local
government and scouting) were a bit too trusting and didn't ask the right
questions.
Tony Bryer BSL 8th Twickenham
Alan Freeman
Richard Bird <richar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Chris,
>
> I agree with your comments, espically the quoted part below thats what
> friends are for!!!
>
> And Personal insults are just not Scouting, as I said before I suggest
> his intension were not for self gain but to create happyness for other
> alot less well off then we are in the UK.
>
gain so it is OK ans as it was for others worse off than us there
should be no problem.
Comments like yours seem to condone his actions and will only have an
adverse effect on the Movement both locally and nationally.
For many years the name of Chris Wilkinson and the Scout Movement were
almost uttered in the same breath in that part of Nottinghamshire.
It is going to take some considerable time to get over this tragic
business
From the newaspaper extracts it would appear that local Scouting gained
nothing from his activities and there is no claim that other local
leaders were involved.
The only ones that gained appear to be the Ugandans - and, according to
the press reports he was due to be moving there before the whole can of
worms was unearthed.
The term "feathering one's nest" comes to mind!
Perhaps Malcolm from 1st Farnsfield can confirm these points.
Are you really saying that you think that someone who has admitted
breaking the law and abusing a position of trust(which is a a clear
breach of the Scout Law that would be most widely recognised by the
general public)is the type of person who should have the charge of, and
the responsibility for, Scouts and also advising their leaders?
What type of an example can this be for the children under our care in
the Scout Movement.
The choices:-
Foregiveness - yes by all means if you wish.
that is a personal matter and as a Christian / religion based movement
this would be most welcome
Reinstatement - no, not at any price!
This would bring even more dishonour to the Movement than this sorry
buisiness has done it so far!
--
Alan Freeman (No not that one!)
Marc@Home
> Once again I seem to be hearing it said that as it was not for self-
> gain so it is OK ans as it was for others worse off than us there
> should be no problem.
No one has said there should be no problem.
>
>
>
> From the newaspaper extracts it would appear that local Scouting gained
> nothing from his activities and there is no claim that other local
> leaders were involved.
> The only ones that gained appear to be the Ugandans - and, according to
> the press reports he was due to be moving there before the whole can of
> worms was unearthed.
> The term "feathering one's nest" comes to mind!
> Perhaps Malcolm from 1st Farnsfield can confirm these points.
Why should "Malcolm " need to confirm anything more ?Unless the idea is
simply to stir up trouble?
>
> Are you really saying that you think that someone who has admitted
> breaking the law and abusing a position of trust(which is a a clear
> breach of the Scout Law that would be most widely recognised by the
> general public)is the type of person who should have the charge of, and
> the responsibility for, Scouts and also advising their leaders?
> What type of an example can this be for the children under our care in
> the Scout Movement.
No one has said anything of the sort, we all break laws in some way or
another, so he who wants to cast the first stone should remove the mote
from their own eyes, before the can go through the eye of a camel etc
>
> The choices:-
> Foregiveness - yes by all means if you wish.
> that is a personal matter and as a Christian / religion based movement
> this would be most welcome
Errr...
The statements
" What type of an example can this be for the children under our care
in the Scout Movement."
and
" as a Christian / religion based movement"
don't seem to sit very well together. As a member of the SA I'm sure you
would realise why they don't , but just to set my mind at rest, could I
ask what your interest is in the SA apart from this court case?
>
> Reinstatement - no, not at any price!
Reinstatment as what? He can't now remain or become a leader or a
administrator, that is quite clear in the rules of the SA, but therer is
no bar to him being a member.
> This would bring even more dishonour to the Movement than this sorry
> buisiness has done it so far!
If the name of the SA is so important to you why do you keep worrying at
this problem, like a fetid bone? You have brought to the newsgroup some
news that many of us may well not have seen, and I thank you for the
copy of the newspaper report, but what is your point now? I'm a long way
from Nottingham, my views won't have any affect on the scouts in
Nottingham, neither will the majority of people here. What is the point
of your continuing polemic unless it is to further enflame the situation
or settle some grudge?
Marc
Dave Mayall
<jo...@kennaugh.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>While I cannot in any way condone theft, even on behalf of a good cause,
>I do feel that in judging a fellow Scout you should at least tinge your
>condemnation with an expression of regret that one of our brothers
>having done so much good over such a long period has fallen to
>temptation and blown it. I don't know Chris but I suspect he will regret
>his actions for the rest of his life without any help from you. I
>suspect he has effectively wrecked his life and thrown away everything
>that means anything to him.
>
>To Chris I say 'what a silly thing to do' and offer the hand of
>friendship.
Likewise.
Unlike John, I have met Chris. He struck me as a dedicated Scouter. He
has been foolish beyond belief, but that doesn't mean that we should
ignore the good that he has done in Scouting, particularly in the area
of bringing scouting to the internet.
I know that Chris was dedicated to the Ugandan project, and it seems
that he has allowed that determination to do something to cloud his
judgement.
There are no winners here. The Council haven't got their cash back.
The Group (and Scouting in general) has been tarnished. The Uganda
Network has been badly damaged. At the centre of it all, Chris has
lost pretty much everything. His Job, His vocation, his good name.
I hope that a custodial sentence doesn't ensue. The amount concerned
is not vast, and however questionable the motive, there is no
suggestion that the money was appropriated for his own use.
--
Dave Mayall
SL 7th Stalybridge
Chris Atkinson
>Nice one Malcolm! Chris deserves all that he gets, and I will be glad to
>see the back of the ar*eh*le.
family at what has come to pass. I'm not aware of any details other than
those newspaper reports reposted at tedious length by both Malcolm and
Paul (twice) - who could both do with finding out how to operate on
usenet if they're to bother us with posting here again. Try reading the
urs FAQ guys - it might even help you Paul to moderate how you refer to
others in future, whatever the circumstances. Resisting the temptation
to gloat must be hard for you - but it's not impossible (I have to
admit I don't know anything about Farnsfield, but you both make it sound
like a Scouting war-zone).
I don't know anything about the substance of the allegations, certainly
not enough to be judgmental in *any* way. The reporting did all seem to
be one-sided; I saw nothing there in mitigation - perhaps there was
nothing ... I don't know. And of course the reports were written
(selectively(?) - oh no, I'm sure they wouldn't do that) by those
wonderful press types who report at such length and with such precision
and clarity on all our other Scouting activities.
Whatever the full facts, and whatever Chris's sentence (and, hey, that
bit hasn't happened yet - but don't worry about that Malcolm, why let
the facts get in the way of a good posting!) it is a certainty that his
lifetime of Scouting has come to an unhappy end. But I'm sure that down
all those years there will have been very many youngsters who will have
had cause to remember with gratitude the Scouting he has given them.
Let's try for the humanity bit, and salvage just a little something out
of this tragedy shall we?
Finally may I suggest that we now draw a line, and let this thread die a
natural death.
Chris A.
--
Chris Atkinson
ch...@cgautc.demon.co.uk UTC Computer Services
Honesty may be the best policy - but insanity's the better defence.
Bill Neobard
<mar...@sylvesteryork.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>"Alan Freeman" <steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:8vgdob$g4v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>Not for the first time do I feel the need to respond to a posting by Paul
>Ryan who now tells us he is ACSL in the very group that Chris ran
>successfully for more than 15 years.
>
>we? SURE! I noticed that at no time is Chris's side of the story reported.
>
>you ever thought for one moment how un-scout like your actions are and in
>your case Paul your language is not the sort of role model I would expect
>from a Cub Scout Leader. You would both be taken severely to task if you
>were in my District! You are *proud* to be ACSL 1st Farnsfield - Huh!
>
>I tried late last night to contact Chris to offer him my personal support
>and continued friendship but his phone was constantly engaged no doubt with
>genuine Scouts doing likewise. I will make sure I get through to him today
>so expect a call Chris.
>
>Perhaps Paul and Malcolm you would do likewise instead of muck raking in
>this most distatesful way.
>
>Keep posting Chris.
>
>Martin and Sue Sylvester
>
>
>
>
--
Bill Neobard
Alan Luker
formed from this meeting was that he was a self opinionated pratt who was a
legend in his own mind however i consider it unfair to brand him a convicted
criminal in advance of the courts findings also if he were a convicted
criminal would that make any advice regarding scouting be any different than
the same advice given by him prior to this unfortunate saga
Richard Bird wrote in message <8vhkuh$e05$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Malcolm,
>
>The man in NOT a convicted criminal if you bother to read the article
>posted by Alan you will note sentencing will be in December.
>
>The guy all though would seem to have done wrong (Not convicted yet)
>was in my opinion trying to help those less off than himself - his
>method though is not the method I would use. His intentions it would
>seem were not for self gain but for that of our Brother & Sister Scouts
>less fortunate than ourselves. I am sure those African and Russian
>Scouts enjoyed themselves at the international camp and will have fond
>and happy memories for the rest of there lives, have we all got
>memories of an International camp that will remember for ever.
>
>Finally you mention that those who read Mr Wilkinson's advise should
>now read knowing his is a criminal - does this lessen his advise in
>some way, I guess if he advises on money issues then maybe but the
>report tells he has been for 20 years plus involved in Scouting. I
>have always found his advise to be true and correct, I have never
>personally received advise from him though.
>
>If a murderer is good at painting a picture does this make her picture
>any different knowing she is a murderer?
>
>YIS
>
>Richard Bird
>Scouter from the South
>
>PS Malcolm I like your e-mail address, exactly what is S&M Training??!!
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Malcolm Yates <Mal...@smtraining.demon.co.uk>
>Newsgroups: uk.rec.scouting
>Sent: 22 November 2000 21:56
>Subject: Re: Chris Wilkinson - important information
>
>
>> I would like it to be known to all in the scouting movement that
>Christopher
>> Travis Wilkinson who was formally the Group Scout Leader of 1st
>Farnsfield
>> Scout Group has not held any official or unofficial position within
>the 1st
>> Farnsfield Scout Group or the Nottinghamshire Scout Movement in any
>way
>> since his departure on the 31st July 1999. Nor will he ever be
>involved
>> again! To those of you who correspond within this news group it
>should be
>> noted that the copious advice given by Wilkinson upon scouting matters
>> should be taken in the knowledge that he is a convicted criminal.
>>
>>
>
>
>
David Ball
<steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> What type of an example can this be for the children under our care in
> the Scout Movement.
>
> The choices:-
> Foregiveness - yes by all means if you wish.
> that is a personal matter and as a Christian / religion based movement
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What movement is that? Not scouting, certainly.
David
--
David Ball
<davi...@lycosmail.com>
Harpenden, Herts, UK.
Alan Freeman
£30,000 was mentioned which has never been denied by anyone.
Remember that quite often the police press only sample charges to save
court time and the odds are that this was the same in Chris's case.
> --
> Dave Mayall
>
> SL 7th Stalybridge
>
--
Bill Neobard
Luker <alan....@virgin.net> writes
>i have met chris wilkinson only once for a short time and the opinion that i
>formed from this meeting was that he was a self opinionated pratt who was a
>legend in his own mind however i consider it unfair to brand him a convicted
>criminal in advance of the courts findings also if he were a convicted
>criminal would that make any advice regarding scouting be any different than
>the same advice given by him prior to this unfortunate saga
>
>
>
>
--
Bill Neobard
Alan Freeman
davi...@lycosmail.com (David Ball) wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:38:44 GMT, Alan Freeman
> <steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > What type of an example can this be for the children under our care
in
> > the Scout Movement.
> >
> > The choices:-
> > Foregiveness - yes by all means if you wish.
> > that is a personal matter and as a Christian / religion based
movement
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> What movement is that? Not scouting, certainly.
>
>
I assume that you are a Scouter and as such you would have made, in
your Scout Promise, "to do my duty to God ..."
The Promise and Law are the basic elements of our Movement and I, for
one, try to instill this with the Scouts under my care, even in this
material and godless age.
I assume, therefore, that you do not accept all of the Promise -
popssibly the Law as well.
If that is the case does that make you a person fit to a Leader of
Scouts who should be safeguarding principals of the Scout Movement?
--
Alan Freeman (No not that one!)
Marc@Home
> Yes, it is!
OH NO ITS NOT! And a Few BEHIND YOU"S thrown in as well
>
> I assume that you are a Scouter and as such you would have made, in
> your Scout Promise, "to do my duty to God ..."
Not a christian god though is it? So that lets out your claim of
"a Christian ....based
movement"
>
> The Promise and Law are the basic elements of our Movement and I, for
> one, try to instill this with the Scouts under my care,
Yes that's true , and you should be praised for that
> even in this
> material and godless age.
WHOAH!! Warning Jim Robinson DANGER DANGER , ARRHHOOOPAAA TILT TILT!
Subjective predudicial statements, that make you sound like a christion
zealot. How do, you reconcile this being a "godless age" with you
instilling the basic elements of a Christin based movement? Surely one
or other of your statements is wrong?
>
> I assume, therefore, that you do not accept all of the Promise -
> popssibly the Law as well.
A ridiculous assumption to make , but I'm not sure that your thought
processes are too clear at the moment.
>
> If that is the case does that make you a person fit to a Leader of
> Scouts who should be safeguarding principals of the Scout Movement?
I notice that you have chosen to reply to this part of the thread and
not answer my questions in another posting. From this I assume ( See
it's that word again) that you have something to hide and are not
fullfiling all of the scout laws, "If that is the case does that make
you a person fit to Be ( sic)a Leader of Scouts who should be
safeguarding principals of the Scout Movement?",but there again we don't
know who you are or what your links with the SA are do we?
Marc Cattle
Group Quartermaster 1St Pen-Y-Fai Scout Group
The opinions above are my own and should not be attributed to 1St
Pen-Y-Fai Scout Group or any other organisation.
Dave Mayall
<steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>When this matter was first in the press some 18 months ago a figure of
>£30,000 was mentioned which has never been denied by anyone.
>
>Remember that quite often the police press only sample charges to save
>court time and the odds are that this was the same in Chris's case.
I appreciate this, but the sentence will be based upon what he is
convicted for. If he has changed his plea to guilty, then it would be
unwise in the extreme of him not to make a *full* admission (asking
for other offences to be taken into account). Otherwise he could face
another prosecution.
Dave Mayall
<steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>I assume that you are a Scouter and as such you would have made, in
>your Scout Promise, "to do my duty to God ..."
I think that you will find a number of other religions who have a god,
and some religions who use alternative words in this respect.
Rex Hunt
friends are!
I don't condone what he has done but I wonder how many of our employers
'Sponsor' Scouting without knowledge?
As I first said......sad
Mick Baker
A couple of people e-mailed me giving me advice and support, Chris being one
of them. I have never met him, but I did appreciate his support. It helped
me at the time, and his advice to me has not altered because of what he has
allegedly done. My opinion of him has not changed one jot. Judging by what I
have read on this ng, he has made a silly mistake. To have people condemn
him and gloat about his misfortune on a news group for all and sundry to
read is indefensible.
I hope Chris learns from all this, and wish him and his family well.
YiS
Mick Baker
John Kennaugh
>The choices:-
>Foregiveness - yes by all means if you wish.
>that is a personal matter and as a Christian / religion based movement
Maybe you should say who you are. If you are a leader you clearly
haven't done your training yet or you wouldn't have made that statement.
>Reinstatement - no, not at any price!
>This would bring even more dishonour to the Movement than this sorry
>buisiness has done it so far!
I have known leaders with criminal records be given a warrant
having served their sentence and after having had a blameless life for a
suitable period. They were able to convince the appointments committee
they are suitably reformed.
--
John Kennaugh
stephen rainsbury
one leader turned up for remeberance day and started threatening that he was
going to re-introduce monthly parades, one APL said quite opnely that if
that was made compulsory then he would leave and the rest agreed.
Why don't some people get the idea that most kids don't want to go to
church, they are bored and can't see the point. This is PRECISELY what I try
hard to avoid on troop night so why oh why do people think that the kids are
going to want to give up a Sunday for it?
I had a plan, a good plan I thought, lets invite a war veteran round and
tell the kids what war is really like and what its like to loose a close
firend, and why remeberence day is so special, do that the Friday before and
I reckon we would have had twice as many, but nope, too scary for little
Damien.
We can sit and hear poems and some bloke in a frock talk about something
that means absolutly NOTHING to most kids and they are not likely to learn
about it in church, IMHO most kids of scout age do not have the concept of
war and death, its still hollywood to them.
If it wasn't for the fact that many troop rely heavily on Churches for
premisies I would happily exclude all of the religious stuff until at least
section 4 if not longer, it doesn't help the programme, it is just a burden
that we have a bear and activities that we have to do to get a tick in the
box for certain awards.
If necessary I will make a deal with the local Clergy, if they agree not to
teach pioneering and camp skills on Sunday, I will stop teching religion on
Fridays, seems fair to me.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
DSL Gillingham Kent UK.
These views are nor necessarily those of the district or county.
stephen rainsbury
Rex Hunt <R...@tizyer.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8vmlvu$l90$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> How sad after many years of Service to the movement, he now knows who his
> friends are!
> I don't condone what he has done but I wonder how many of our employers
> 'Sponsor' Scouting without knowledge?
I wonder how many people HAVEN'T broken the law for their unit, e.g.
- use the firms Xerox without consent
- take home paper, stationary, selotape
- used the company phone/internet/e-mail for scouting
- Driven a patrol of 4 scouts back to the HQ in the back of a car after a
night hike
- Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
- "re-organised" the truth to protect a scout
need I go on?
Right so there are the stones, go one pick one up.
Nathan
<Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>
>Rex Hunt <R...@tizyer.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8vmlvu$l90$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> How sad after many years of Service to the movement, he now knows who his
>> friends are!
>> I don't condone what he has done but I wonder how many of our employers
>> 'Sponsor' Scouting without knowledge?
>
>I wonder how many people HAVEN'T broken the law for their unit, e.g.
>
>- use the firms Xerox without consent
>- take home paper, stationary, selotape
>- used the company phone/internet/e-mail for scouting
>- Driven a patrol of 4 scouts back to the HQ in the back of a car after a
>night hike
>- Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
>- "re-organised" the truth to protect a scout
>
>need I go on?
>
>Right so there are the stones, go one pick one up.
>
Spot on, Stephen.
The vultures we have seen on the group need to think carefully why they
are in the Movement.
Good luck Chris. We all make silly mistakes in our lives, it's a fact of
life.
--
Nathan Hull ICQ 85571388
Tel +44 (0)7941 336827 e-Fax+44 (0)870 284 6889
email to my mobile phone: hul...@sms.genie.co.uk
on IRC #mylene as Hully (use a Superchat Server)
website of the week: http://priceless.bla-bla.com
David Ball
> > > the Scout Movement.
> > >
> > > Foregiveness - yes by all means if you wish.
> > > that is a personal matter and as a Christian / religion based movement
> > What movement is that? Not scouting, certainly.
> >
> Yes, it is!
It most certainly is not. Show me where it says scouting is a Christian
organisation, or indeed connected to any religion.
> I assume that you are a Scouter
Why do you assume that? As it happens, I am not (yet).
> and as such you would have made, in
> your Scout Promise, "to do my duty to God ..."
I have indeed made the promise many times.
> The Promise and Law are the basic elements of our Movement and I, for
> one, try to instill this with the Scouts under my care, even in this
> material and godless age.
Good. I hope that this does not mean you preach Christianity, or indeed
any other religion.
> I assume, therefore, that you do not accept all of the Promise -
> popssibly the Law as well.
Another incorrect assumption.
Jonathan Bloor
Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk says...
I too dispair at the poor attendance at this important event. I have
tried various methods and had considered getting a British Legion bod
along to talk about their experiences. Has anybody else actually done
this?
---
Jonathan Bloor
SL, AHSG, Leics
My Views only...
www.ashby-hastings.org.uk
Stewart
through this item I thought perhaps it is time you heard from one of
Chris's Scouts.
I moved into the village some years ago as a 12 year old thug. Yes I
know, but even at 12 I was good at causing damage to boys, often older
than me. I used to thrive on seeing mates coming to school with
bruises and often much worse. I'd been a customer of Social Services
for many a year. Dad was nowhere around and my social worker had just
pushed me off to yet another set of Foster Parents. Within days Chris
was knocking at the door and got me to join Scouts. I have to say I
didn't really want to join but I put up with it. It didn't really fit
my image. The next couple of years or so were the most exciting days in
my life. Camping, walking, climbing, canoeing - we did it all. Dave
Bell was the Scout Leader but Chris always had time for me. He helped
me particularly with my homework and somehow got me some GCSEs.
Then for me disaster came. I got into a drunken fight and I am now
ashamed to think what I did to the other boys face and brain. That got
me into court and 12 months in a youth prison. Looking back I really
did deserve what happened to me and I am now very very ashamed of what
I did.
Who was it that spoke up for me in court, came to see me in prison, was
there when I was released and helped me to get my life together. It
was Chris. He got me back into Scouts - I know parents objected but he
stood firm. He always had a good word for me when I was under attack
from school or my social worker.
Now I am married with a little girl, a good job and what I hope is a
good future for the three of us.
Although I am not now an active Scout I still regard myself as a Scout
and when I next see Chris I will greet him as the man he is - a friend,
a brother Scout and a Dad I never had. He may now have a criminal
record but is still the same man.
Thanks Chris and good luck.
To Mr Yates, I don't think I know you and have never met when I have
been in Farnsfield but, looking at your posting, you will never by half
the man that Chris is. In my past I might well have dealt with you one
dark night. Consider yourself lucky, you are saved that fate today
because of living by Chris's example.
Stewart
Please forgive me for hiding but I want to put my past behind me -
Chris and others involved in Scouting when I was will know who I am
Ian N Ford
However, in my thought for the week I said that when I was a Scout
their age I used to go to Remembrance Day parades, and thought it was
about old folks who had lived through the two World Wars and not really
relevant to me.
I said that as a Cub Instructor I had a kid in the pack called Tony. He
joined the Scouts, and later joined the Royal Navy.
Tony was not much older than some of my Scouts when he was killed in
action during the Falklands war. Tony was one of many Scouts who
throughout the years have done their best to do their duty to the Queen
and their country by being prepared to give their lives, if necessary,
to protect our national interests and to keep the peace in a variety of
places throughout the world.
During the silence in my parish church on Sunday I know the older
generation had memories of the Blitz, serving on the Atlantic convoys,
of loved ones killed in WW2.
My own image was of a cheeky Cub Scout called Tony ...
As one medalled veteran said at the end of the two minutes silence "
They shall not grow old as we that are left grow old ... "
Ian Ford
Acting GSL 2nd Deptford
ADC(AT) Greenwich
Bill Neobard
<steakan...@my-deja.com> writes
>I assume that you are a Scouter and as such you would have made, in
>your Scout Promise, "to do my duty to God ..."
>
>one, try to instill this with the Scouts under my care, even in this
>material and godless age.
>
>popssibly the Law as well.
>
>Scouts who should be safeguarding principals of the Scout Movement?
--
Bill Neobard
Bill Neobard
Bloor <jonatha...@zouch.org.uk> writes
>In article <8vmvo5$d16$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk says...
>> Our GSL spouted off last week at how annoyed he was that only 2 scouts and
>> one leader turned up for remeberance day and started threatening that he was
>> going to re-introduce monthly parades, one APL said quite opnely that if
>> that was made compulsory then he would leave and the rest agreed.
>>
>>
>>
>
>tried various methods and had considered getting a British Legion bod
>along to talk about their experiences. Has anybody else actually done
>this?
>
>---
>Jonathan Bloor
>SL, AHSG, Leics
>My Views only...
>www.ashby-hastings.org.uk
On the Remembrance day attendance front, our PLC talked through Church
parades with the Troop in Jan. They all agreed on 3 per year -as
previously noted here. We told our scouts that as most of them hadnt
been arsed to come to any, they should seriously think whether their
Promise meant anything to them -pointing out (no pressure, of course!)
that they had taken the Promise voluntarily and had chosen 3 CPs
voluntarily.
I put a note out by mail to each parent telling them that we would not
wish any scout to come to CP if either he/she or the parents had
scruples that pointed them away from either our church or churches in
general.
All bar 2 turned up, and the remaining 2 rang with good (other event)
reasons for not coming. We spoke to all individually to thank them
afterwards, and they all said the reason they didn't normally come was
down to laziness and the wish to lie in bed on Sundays - or other
things, like football. No "theism" reasons.
What good did them coming do? Probably on the religious front, very
little. On the "loyalty" front -somewhat more, and from the PR front -
the rest of the congregation -a lot. Our GSL had threatened various
things, but none was needed.
--
Bill Neobard
Simon Pearce
news:8vn060$tdo$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> - Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
My own personal opinion - I certainly hope no-one has ever done this. It is
totally unacceptable.
Simon
Alistair Bell
>
> I too dispair at the poor attendance at this important event. I have
> tried various methods and had considered getting a British Legion bod
> along to talk about their experiences. Has anybody else actually done
> this?
>
At home although it has not actually been done at one of our meetings
one of the members of the local legion is very pro youth and
understanding and regularly chats to Scouts etc who attend, word gets
around.
Alistair
Ewan Scott
<steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Chris Wilkinson - the same as regularly posts here
>
>
>Nottingham Evening Post reports follows:-
>
>Tuesday 21 November 2000
>
> PARISH CLERK STOLE FOR AFRICAN SCOUTS - CLAIM
> ---------------------------------------------
Oh, such a heinous crime. Without condoning CW, has he done anything
which in principle is any worse than using the company photocopier
without permission?
Has he gained financially or materially from his escapade? No?
Then let the man consider his crime at his leisure, no need to post
like this.
As for the poster, what are his credentials? On scanning a massive
archive of postings on my PC, the only one I can find from Alan
Freeman is to "out" someone who has perhaps overdone the principle of
unwitting employee donations to charity.
At the final judgement, the Lord might ask CW, what was your crime? He
will reply , doubtless, I took property from the wealthy and gave to
the poor, with (we presume) no gain for myself.
AF, asked the same question, might confess, I threw the first stone,
Lord.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
<simonpNOS...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>stephen rainsbury <Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8vn060$tdo$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>> - Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
>
>My own personal opinion - I certainly hope no-one has ever done this. It is
>totally unacceptable.
I presume you missed the smiley face. or your disgust is that it was
not a full can.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
<david....@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:19:35 GMT, Alan Freeman
><steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>When this matter was first in the press some 18 months ago a figure of
>>£30,000 was mentioned which has never been denied by anyone.
>>
>>Remember that quite often the police press only sample charges to save
>>court time and the odds are that this was the same in Chris's case.
>
>I appreciate this, but the sentence will be based upon what he is
>convicted for. If he has changed his plea to guilty, then it would be
>unwise in the extreme of him not to make a *full* admission (asking
>for other offences to be taken into account). Otherwise he could face
>another prosecution.
>
Ewan Scott
>When this matter was first in the press some 18 months ago a figure of
>£30,000 was mentioned which has never been denied by anyone.
>
>Remember that quite often the police press only sample charges to save
>court time and the odds are that this was the same in Chris's case.
>
someone with an offence from which they personally gained, or one from
which a charity gained, would chose, for PR reasons if nothing else,
to pursue the charitable offence?
If every Council official who wasted Council money, or mis-spent it
were charged, few would retain their posts. I can think of one or two
who regularly waste (wilfully) thousands of pounds in council funds,
and others who fail to report them.
BTW, who is Nottinghamshire's greatest Folk hero.... and what exactly
did he do?
I feel a sneaking admiration for CW, though I do not condone his
action. I cannot say the same for you.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
>Are you really saying that you think that someone who has admitted
>breaking the law and abusing a position of trust(which is a a clear
>breach of the Scout Law that would be most widely recognised by the
>general public)is the type of person who should have the charge of, and
>the responsibility for, Scouts and also advising their leaders?
No-one has, as far as I can see said that. No-one has condoned his
actions. Though we question the need for your public stoning.
>What type of an example can this be for the children under our care in
>the Scout Movement.
What example the blackballing and stoning when perhaps forgiveness and
support are called for. I'd rather my Scouts stood alongside,
supporting, a wrong man paying for his mistakes honestly, than sided
with the stonethrowers.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
>
>Subjective predudicial statements, that make you sound like a christion
>zealot. How do, you reconcile this being a "godless age" with you
>instilling the basic elements of a Christin based movement? Surely one
>or other of your statements is wrong?
The penny just dropped has it, Marc?
Ewan Scott
Andy Daniels
<wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote:
>Paul Ryan <pr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Nice one Malcolm! Chris deserves all that he gets, and I will be glad to
>> see the back of the ar*eh*le.
> ^^^^^^^^
>
>Oi! Can we have a little less of that please (regardless of what he may
>or may not have done; personal insults have no place on this newsgroup).
>Oh, and don't quote 5 screens of stuff to add a few lines, please.
>
>Ta,
>
>Neil
I agree and so what if he has a record he has given out some very good
ideas out and he had good intentions with the money and it's not as if
he was living the high life with it.
I support Chris
--
Andy Daniels
Phoenix VSU
7th Stalybridge
Andy Daniels
wrote:
>Nice one Malcolm! Chris deserves all that he gets, and I will be glad to
>see the back of the ar*eh*le.
>
I think that you are being pathetic and I bet Chris has helped you out
a few times so less of the language please because you are not setting
a good example to the scouts that read this NG
Andy Daniels
<Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Rex Hunt <R...@tizyer.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8vmlvu$l90$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> How sad after many years of Service to the movement, he now knows who his
>> friends are!
>> I don't condone what he has done but I wonder how many of our employers
>> 'Sponsor' Scouting without knowledge?
>
>I wonder how many people HAVEN'T broken the law for their unit, e.g.
>
>- use the firms Xerox without consent
>- take home paper, stationary, selotape
>- used the company phone/internet/e-mail for scouting
>- Driven a patrol of 4 scouts back to the HQ in the back of a car after a
>night hike
>- Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
BITTER
^^^^^^^
>- "re-organised" the truth to protect a scout
>
>need I go on?
>
>Right so there are the stones, go one pick one up.
--
Andy Daniels
>>need I go on?
>>
>>Right so there are the stones, go one pick one up.
>>
>
>Spot on, Stephen.
>
>The vultures we have seen on the group need to think carefully why they
>are in the Movement.
>
>Good luck Chris. We all make silly mistakes in our lives, it's a fact of
>life.
WELL SAID
Andy Daniels
<simonpNOS...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>stephen rainsbury <Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8vn060$tdo$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>> - Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
>
>My own personal opinion - I certainly hope no-one has ever done this. It is
>totally unacceptable.
>
>Simon
>
I agree lagar indeed
Andy Daniels
<jo...@kennaugh.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>To Chris I say 'what a silly thing to do' and offer the hand of
>friendship.
Count me in as well
Derek Biddle
<andy.d...@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>
>>>need I go on?
>>>
>>>Right so there are the stones, go one pick one up.
>>>
>>
>>Spot on, Stephen.
>>
>>The vultures we have seen on the group need to think carefully why they
>>are in the Movement.
>>
>>Good luck Chris. We all make silly mistakes in our lives, it's a fact of
>>life.
>
>
Agreed whole heartedly.
I met Chris when he brought over what I thought was the first Russian
Group to visit the UK - my son was still a Cub then, now he is 17.
I cannot imagine that the things like this that he has been involved in
did anything less than cost him a great deal of money personally.
I wish him well in what he tries to do, and remind people of the Dave
Allen sketch, stood in a pulpit as a vicar saying that he who is free
from sin cast the first stone.
Church immediately falls down on ALL occupants.
--
Derek Biddle
Granpa
.freeserve.co.uk> writes
years experience - one of the old brigade. I used to wear shorts in cold
weather and used to thank BP for the hat when it was piddling down with
rain at camp - yes I am that old! I gave up because of being riddled
with arthritis - not because of any disagreement with the movement or
other leaders.
After finding it I have been silently watching this group with interest
for the last few weeks and hoped to refresh myself with the ins and outs
of modern Scouting.
Since I first saw this set of articles I have taken the time to explore
all the Notts newspapers' archives on the web for all their past reports
on Chris case and also the web for a pen-picture of Chris so I could get
an unbiased view of the case.
I am not going to quote articles but would suggest that you visit the
archives of the Nottingham Evening Post which is the paper quoted and
which I found most valuable, and also the latest edition of the Newark
Advertiser.
The earliest reference to this goes back to May 1999 when the story
first broke and a figure of £30,000 was referred to.
All has been quiet since then until the last week when he came to court
and there are three further articles at this point.
As someone said, Chris has not publicly given his account of the
situation, save his eventual pleas of guilty to 6 charges worth over
£4,000.
Charges for almost another £10,000 were left on file to which the police
probably have extremely good evidence for them to proceed in the first
place.
Chris's opportunity will come when his barrister speaks on his behalf at
sentencing.
I assume that there will be some mitigation pleas from Scouting - if not
there should be.
(For general information the usual procedure is that if a deal is struck
with a defendant for him to plead guilty to only certain charges only it
is simply to save time and expense. The prosecution and judge will need
to feel that the charges pleaded to are the main charges and that
sentence, when it is given, would be no less than it would be if all the
other charges - those left on file - were also proven. Remember - a
charge on file is not an acquittal, it is simply not proceeded with.)
I must say I am most disappointed with the views of some contributors,
such as Ewan (above) who seem to be able to equate this with the
unauthorised use of a photocopier or, as quoted in other posts, as the
taking of a few paper clips.
This particular case involves one admitted case of two cookers to the
total value of £1527.50. (These would appear to be catering cookers at
this price)
How many Scout Groups would get, or even felt that they needed, just one
cooker of this value never mind two.
The case also involves one admitted case of purchase of flags (Ugandan
and Russian) and flagpoles to the value of £904.
Again what Group would need to buy flags and poles to this value for a
single use?
Surely to say these matters are minor is making a molehill out of a
mountain!
If you, Ewan, do not agree, the what limits would you make for such a
thing to be acceptable or not acceptable?
What effect will it have on young Scouts if they see such an example
being classed as "acceptable practice" by their leaders?
Again, Ewan, you say that he was "someone who has perhaps overdone the
principle of unwitting employee donations to charity."
^^^^^^^^^
It would appear from reports that most, if not all, of these items went
towards Ugandan Scouting and it was to Uganda he was intending going
when he had his collar felt.
From the Web I note that "The Group (Farnsfield) members supported an
orphan to the World Jamboree, and provided computer equipment for BP
House Kampala" (http://www.ugandanetwork.org.uk/network/ugfriend.htm).
Some charges on file appear to be regarding computer equipment so is
there a parallel?
The same web page also says "To Chris's acute embarrassment(!) a college
in Bwera, Kasese District bears his name. The "Chris Wilkinson College"
offers courses in carpentry, stenography, secretarial, tailoring and
driving to young people who have dropped out of education and look to
Scouting for a "Return to Learn" approach."
The page also says "In 1998 the Group hosted the first ever visit of
"young" Scouts from Uganda to the UK, aged 8 to 14, paying all the costs
of the orphans and meeting all UK costs for the full party" Is this that
one of the occasions that the charges refer to?
The press reports state that he was emigrating to work in Ugandan
Scouting and hint that he was "feathering his nest" for his emigration.
The quotes from ugandanetwork.org.uk appear to strengthen this view.
There are a lot of unanswered questions.
What we need is for Chris, eventually, to let us all know his side of
the story - no doubt he is browsing silently through this group at this
moment - so we can get a balanced view of this most tragic situation.
I don't know Chris personally, but I can see a most tragic figure behind
all this.
Chris, I know you cannot comment before your sentencing but, could I
suggest that you put your own case after sentencing - even if it means
getting someone else to post it for you if you go down.
You owe it to Scouting.
I am now going back to my pipe and slippers and to browse the group
silently.
Thank you for the opportunity for me to make a constructive comment.
--
Granpa - as I used to be know in Scouting
Alastair Rainsbury
<simonpNOS...@dircon.co.uk> writes
>stephen rainsbury <Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8vn060$tdo$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
>totally unacceptable.
>
>Simon
>
>
First time I drank a can of beer was on Scout camp. IMHO it was better
that me and my mates first started to drink under the supervision of
responsible leaders by having the odd can of beer round the camp fire
after the younger scouts were in bed, rather than down the park with a
bottle of cider from the "Offy".
--
Alastair Rainsbury
Akela 1st Marple Bradshaw Cub Scouts
Original GAPPster - http://surf.to/GAPP
Shampog
> >> - Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
> >
is
> >totally unacceptable.
> >
> >Simon
Simon, please feel free to enter reality.
I rather think that you are in the minoriy. Personally, (without wishing to
create a further, perhaps more serious thread) I have had
older/senior/venture/under the age of majority/delete as appropriate -
Scouts approach me at camp looking for the proverbial 'pack of three'.
Rather than say no, and form part of a possibly very unfortunate set of
circumstances, I have supplied the required articles (from my first aid
kit -- usefull for finger injuries that require to remain dry) and so
hopefuly/luckily preventing further grief. As both a Scouter and a parent,
let alone my occupation, I would rather that a young person appreciate the
perils of the Big World within a friendly, understanding Group than the
street corner attitudes that we as a Movement are working with. I would
like to think that when parents sign off their offspring with a permission
to camp form that we as Leaders encompass that with a broad mind, and react
suitably.
> First time I drank a can of beer was on Scout camp. IMHO it was better
> that me down the park with a
> bottle of cider from the "Offy".
> Alastair Rainsbury
>
> Akela 1st Marple Bradshaw Cub Scouts
Alistair, if this were a motion, then consider it wholly seconded.
If my employers knew how much they supported Scouting (its a big firm, than
can carry it) then I am in a similar (though smaller) mould from Chris.
Chris. You did wrong, mate, but you have the bottle to stand up and admit
to what a lot of the others do on a much smaller scale.
In future, don't aim your sights just quite so high.
Shampog
Alan Luker
on the verge of assisting my local scout group over an ongoing period, then
i met chris wilkinson for a very short time and due to the manner in which i
was spoken to, considering that he had never met me, or had no idea who i
was i decided to assist another youth organisation which i am still doing a
year later,
due to my contacts this organisation has recieved so much equiptment Etc
that they are now passing surplus suplies to other branches of their
organisation, this situation will continue as far as i am concerned because
i am not dealing with a self opinionated prat, chris is no doubt a good
scouter but at the end of the day it's nice to be important BUT it's
important to be nice
Bill Neobard wrote in message <0$Xp2KAB9...@neobard.demon.co.uk>...
>In article <SPfT5.7137$vA4.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, Alan
>Luker <alan....@virgin.net> writes
>>i have met chris wilkinson only once for a short time and the opinion that
i
>>formed from this meeting was that he was a self opinionated pratt who was
a
>>legend in his own mind however i consider it unfair to brand him a
convicted
>>criminal in advance of the courts findings also if he were a convicted
>>criminal would that make any advice regarding scouting be any different
than
>>the same advice given by him prior to this unfortunate saga
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Are you a scouter, or just another self opinionated prat?
>
>
>--
>Bill Neobard
Alan Luker
of assisting a local scout group when i met chris, due to his attitude and
comments bearing in mind he had never met me and had no idea who i was i
decided to assist another youth organisation locally and am still doing so a
year later, so much so that through my contacts they are recieving excess
equiptment Etc that they are passing on surplus to other branches of their
organisation
chris should remember it's nice to be important BUT it's important to be
stephen rainsbury
Ewan Scott <ew...@scotia57.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3a1fcd95...@news.mcmail.com...
> >news:8vn060$tdo$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> >
> >My own personal opinion - I certainly hope no-one has ever done this. It
is
> >totally unacceptable.
>
> not a full can.
OK lets turn this one around, if the parents have been asked, is this
illegal in England?
stephen rainsbury
<snip>
> At the final judgement, the Lord might ask CW, what was your crime? He
> will reply , doubtless, I took property from the wealthy and gave to
> the poor, with (we presume) no gain for myself.
> AF, asked the same question, might confess, I threw the first stone,
> Lord.
In a country where Robin Hood is held up as a Folk Hero, a lot of this seems
decide hypocritical to me.
Chris is a silly sod and got caught, I have had kit worth more than that
from my old company, perfectly above board simply by asking, paper, use of
printer and Xerox machine, a computer, CASH! 200meters of carpet, furniture,
clock, cuddly all I had to do was ask the right people in the right way.
stephen rainsbury
news:s0OxFRBj...@ntlworld.com...
<snip>
> As someone said, Chris has not publicly given his account of the
> situation, save his eventual pleas of guilty to 6 charges worth over
> £4,000.
Err I retract my last comment, for some reason I thought it was £400!
> Charges for almost another £10,000 were left on file to which the police
> probably have extremely good evidence for them to proceed in the first
> place.
Definitely retract the statement BAE Systems may have been generous, but not
THAT generous.
stephen rainsbury
news:nklv1tgddlg4u938k...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> >- Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
> BITTER
> ^^^^^^^
That's a damn good point, NEXT time you come down South don't bring your own
beer, immerse yourself in the local culture, try REAL Southern drinks, like
Grolsh, Heineken, Stella Artois and Guiness ;-)
Stewart
thought it was about time you heard from one of Chris's Scouts.
I came from a family where I never knew my Dad. By the age of 12 I'd
been in trouble several times and was well known as the local thug. My
trophies were memories of the damage I caused to other boys.
Eventually I turned up in Farnsfield living with yet another set of
Foster Parents. One evening just after school Chris Wilkinson came
knocking on the door trying to persuade me to join the Scouts. Quite
frankly I didn't want to join, not really my scene but he was very
persuasive and I agreed to give it a go. What followed was the most
exciting time of my life - hill walking, climbing, camping canoeing, it
was great with Dave Bell as Leader. But Chris was always around and
always had time for me and other Scouts. He was also involved in the
village youth club where I usually met him two nights a week. Except
for Scouts and the Youth Club there was nothing for us to do. Chris
had no wife and was bringing up his own two boys alone.
Then disaster struck for me. I got into a drunken brawl and I really
am very sorry now to think back of the damaage I did to the other lad.
Not only to his face and body but broken ribs and brain damage. The
result was that I got banged up in a Youth Prison for months. Who was
it that spoke up for me in court, came to see me in prison, was waiting
with transport when I was released and eventually got me back into
Scouts amidst all sorts of parental objections. No not my Mum or Dad
but Chris. When I got too old for the Social Worker to house me I was
on the streets but again Chris found me and a place to live.
Chris was my best friend and the Dad I never had. I owe you a lot for
what you did. I know you never wanted thanks but you can't stop me
this time. Thanks, it seemed like you were the only one who cared.
In the weeks that followed we spent hours together and thanks to him I
got through GSCE's and now I have a wife and daughter. A job and now a
house and I think we have things together for a good future putting my
past behind me.
It is thanks to Chris that all this happened and I'm not the only one
who Chris helped.
Chris never condoned what I did and sorry Chris I am not going to
condone what the Press says you have done. However, he never
criticised me either.
As for Yates and Ryan, neither of whom I know, some years ago I might
have sorted you out behind the youth centre but today you are spared.
It is not my scene these days but you have no right attacking Chris in
this way when you know he cannot reply. His lawyer will be insisting
that he keeps quiet. Thankfully he is getting trial in court, not
trial by newsgroup.
Again, thanks Chris for all you did to give me a life. I am sure you
know my real name. I am in the Derby phone diretory so give me a
ring. I'd love to hear from you. You must be hurting pretty awful at
the moment so remember what you used to say to me - keep calm, don't
criticise those who attack you, say sorry when you are ready and mean
it not when others expect it.
We all send our love.
Stewart
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Stewart
Mike....@bigfoot.com wrote:
> ...it is to kick a person when he's down. It's the sort of sickening
> behaviour that I have come to expect from yobs.
A friend tipped me off about this thread and having read through it I
thought it was about time you heard from one of Chris's Scouts.
I came from a family where I never knew my Dad. By the age of 12 I'd
been in trouble several times and was well known as the local thug. My
trophies were memories of the damage I caused to other boys.
Eventually I turned up in Farnsfield living with yet another set of
Foster Parents. One evening just after school Chris Wilkinson came
knocking on the door trying to persuade me to join the Scouts. Quite
frankly I didn't want to join, not really my scene but he was very
persuasive and I agreed to give it a go. What followed was the most
exciting time of my life - hill walking, climbing, camping canoeing, it
was great with Dave Bell as Leader. But Chris was always around and
always had time for me and other Scouts. If ever I lashed out he very
calmly talked me down and somehow smoothed things out with parents. He
was also involved in the village youth club where I usually met him two
nights a week. Except for Scouts and the Youth Club there was nothing
for us to do. Chris had no wife and was bringing up his own two boys
alone.
Then disaster struck for me. I got into a drunken brawl and I really
am very sorry now to think back of the damaage I did to the other lad.
Not only to his face and body but broken ribs and brain damage. The
result was that I got banged up in a Youth Prison for months. Who was
it that spoke up for me in court, came to see me in prison, was waiting
with transport when I was released and eventually got me back into
Scouts amidst all sorts of parental objections. No not my Mum or Dad
but Chris. When I got too old for the Social Worker to house me I was
on the streets but again Chris found me and a place to live.
Chris was my best friend and the Dad I never had. I owe you a lot for
what you did. I know you never wanted thanks but you can't stop me
this time. Thanks, it seemed like you were the only one who cared.
In the weeks that followed we spent hours together and thanks to him I
got through GSCE's and now I have a wife and daughter. A job and now a
house and I think we have things together for a good future putting my
past behind me.
It is thanks to Chris that all this happened and I'm not the only one
who Chris helped. He always looked out for the kid with problems and I
brought him them by the bus load.
Chris never condoned what I did and sorry Chris I am not going to
condone what the Press says you have done. However, you never
criticised me.
As for Yates and Ryan, neither of whom I know, some years ago I might
have sorted you out behind the youth centre but today you are spared.
It is not my scene these days but you have no right attacking Chris in
this way when you know he cannot reply. His lawyer will be insisting
that he keeps quiet. Thankfully he is getting trial in court, not
trial by newsgroup.
Again, thanks Chris for all you did to give me a life. I am sure you
know my real name. I am in the Derby phone diretory so give me a
ring. I'd love to hear from you. You must be hurting pretty awful at
the moment so remember what you used to say to me - keep calm, don't
criticise those who attack you, say sorry when you are ready and mean
it not when others expect it.
We all send our love.
Stewart
PS My apologies if you have seen this before but I seem to be having
some problems with Deja config.
Dave Mayall
<alan....@virgin.net> wrote:
>neither dear chap, i am a businessman of some substance, i was on the verge
>of assisting a local scout group when i met chris, due to his attitude and
>comments bearing in mind he had never met me and had no idea who i was i
>decided to assist another youth organisation locally and am still doing so a
>year later, so much so that through my contacts they are recieving excess
>equiptment Etc that they are passing on surplus to other branches of their
>organisation
>chris should remember it's nice to be important BUT it's important to be
>nice
Whereas, you seem to believe that it's important to be important.
Sorry, but you come over as absolutely *full* of your own importance.
You have been critical of others, yet here you are telling us that you
were in a position to help your local Scout Group, but decided not to
out of some petty desire to get back at a leader.
Martin Sylvester
My son is busy hurling his Mountain Bike round muddy hills today.
Unfortunately Sue and I got delayed and by the time we arrived Chris was on
his way out to dinner with friends. As a result we didn't get time to talk
much but I did notice his table was full of greetings and messages of
support. He asked me to thank all of you for your support. I guess he does
not include Yates and Ryan or Freeman. He said he was also under strict
advice not to respond to your postings.
So, I spent a happy evening in the Plough and the Warwick Arms. Not one of
the youngsters in the games rooms would condem him, instead it was his
former employers they were criticising. Apparently there have been no local
elections for 12 years with vacancies being filled by friends of
Councillors. Not one of the Councillors is under 60. There never was much in
the village for kids to do and with a population growing older there is now
even less. Apparently some few years ago the lads had wanted a hard play
area to play soccer and ride bikes and just have a place of their own where
they could smoke and drink without constantly being moved on from the street
corners or the rec. Chris had managed to persuade Councillors to go along
with it and also managed to persuade a local developer to cough up 35000
quid to pay for it. Soon after that Chris left the job and the kids are
still waiting for their play area. Apparently they have been told by the
Council has the money but no decision has been taken.
As it was getting a bit noisy we decided to go into the lounge where we sat
with a man who knew all about the matter. He turned out to be a Parish
Councillor. He told me an all together different story to the one in the
Press. He painted a picture of a Parish Council that abbregated its
responsibilities and duties to the electorate, a Council that gave contracts
to its own, a woeful neglect and hatred of the young people. Apparently they
had been trying to get the youth out of the Village Hall for years but Chris
had always obstructed them. It seemed Chris had made himself quite unpopular
because of the stand he took and probably Chris did over step the mark - as
Clerk to Parish he was paid to take their line. Some years ago Chris had
been trying to get the Council to support houses that some of the young
people I met could afford and bungalows and warden accommodation for the
growing elderly population in Farnsfield. He had been stamped on and instead
the village has just got a rash of large Executive Houses and boy are they
ugly.
The Councillor told me that the Chairman had phoned Chris when he was abroad
to warn him to stay away as the Council were out to get him. Instead Chris
returned home to face the music. That sounded more like the Chris that I
knew. I was told during the course of the evening that when the auditors
questioned the Council it was a case of them or Chris. Chris might just have
turned out to be the easier target. Of course there was the odd person who
made outrageous claims that Chris had had a quarter of a million pounds out
of the Council and that he had been trying to flea the country with two
container loads of Council property when he was arrested at Dover. But they
were soon put in their place by the Pub Jury. The concensus was clear that
Chris had not stolen a penny.
The view I got was that most people feel sad for Chris but grateful for his
service to the village and in particular the young people, not just the
Scouts. I think when he has had his day in court and paid the price he will
be able to walk again in the village. Certainly there are many marks of his
success in the village over the 20 years he worked hard for them.
I believe it is now the time to draw this debate to a close. Can we just
ease the pain on Chris and support him through what he has to face. We can
do that without condoning or criticising - after all WE don't have the facts
to be able to make a judgement, only what a few anonymous posters have
written - Alan Freemen - no not that one! and Grandpa. Also two Scout
Leaders Malcolm Yates and Paul Ryan who should be ashamed of themselves.
Sorry Paul, you should be admired for having the courage to say sorry. I
fear that if damage is being done to Scouting it is this debate that is
doing it.
Incidentally Malcolm, one of the Pub Jury was a parent of an ex Scout.
Apparently you had kicked the boy out of the Troop. There wasn't much love
for you in that quarter. Seems you have lost a lot of Scouts in the last
year. I make no judgement of you but I know that the usual measure of a
Scout Leader is the number of Scouts in the Troop. The parent said you had
just two on St George's Day Parade this year and one of those was your own
son. Maybe instead of promoting hostility with your neighbour Chris you
could be helping him through these times and take some of his advice on how
to run the Troop. I doubt he wants to get really involved but given the
right approach I am sure he would advise.
Sue and Martin Sylvester
John Kennaugh
>
>I wonder how many people HAVEN'T broken the law for their unit, e.g.
>
OK
>- use the firms Xerox without consent
>- take home paper, stationary, selotape
>- used the company phone/internet/e-mail for scouting
As I am self employed I would be robbing myself. In any case I have my
full permission :o) Most firms would take the view that occasional use
of the firms facilities is accepted. Abuse of that unwritten privilege
is not. You use the phone because you need to not just for a chat, you
run off a couple of pages of notes or copy info to another leader, you
don't publish the District magazine. You may end up with a biro or two
from work but you don't raid the stationary cupboard so that you can
give every Scout one. I would like to think that if you were faced with
photocopying the District magazine that you would ask permission.
>- Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
>- "re-organised" the truth to protect a scout
Neither are actually illegal.
>- Driven a patrol of 4 scouts back to the HQ in the back of a car after a
>night hike
I plead the 5th amendment :o)
It is a matter of degree. I don't think you can dismiss it quite
that easily. As an organisation based on principles of honour and trust
we have no alternative but to condemn theft as unacceptable. How would
you react if you caught a Scout helping himself to a couple of quid out
of the subs tin? Hopefully you would give him a second chance but you
would certainly make it clear that it was not acceptable. How would you
stand if he has read what you have posted to the news group where the
implication is that someone taking £4600 (possibly a lot more) is OK
because you have done the same sort of thing yourself.
It is the law's Job to punish Chris. It is his friend's job to
help him back on his feet. I don't think in the long run it helps him in
the least to suggest he hasn't really done anything wrong because it is
important that he faces up to what he has done.
--
John Kennaugh
Bill Neobard
<mar...@sylvesteryork.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>I believe it is now the time to draw this debate to a close. Can we just
>ease the pain on Chris and support him through what he has to face. We can
>do that without condoning or criticising - after all WE don't have the facts
>to be able to make a judgement,
Agreed: but perhaps we could all do with remembering that we rarely have
the facts to judge people. That is what I find so irritating about the
posters who rush to condemn other leaders: that goes for the CW story,
for PRI, for Snowdon etc.
--
Bill Neobard
matthew
I know its wrong they know it wrong but far be it for me to criticises ( for
I was doing the same thing at their age) - hazard of a rural community I
afraid.
However I my opinion a couple of pints in the snug where someone has half an
eye on them is much better than secret drinking which to my misfortune all
to well know the possible outcomes. For when I was at school one of my class
mates who had been drinking under a railway bridge sadly came to his demise
when he lost his footing and fell in the canal on his way home.
"Alastair Rainsbury" <alas...@rainsbury.com> wrote in message
news:5KOycLAQ...@mcfcmaineroad.freeserve.co.uk...
> In article <A3PT5.38$Up1....@news.dircon.co.uk>, Simon Pearce
> <simonpNOS...@dircon.co.uk> writes
> >stephen rainsbury <Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:8vn060$tdo$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> >> - Given a 15 YO PL half a can of lager at camp
> >
> >My own personal opinion - I certainly hope no-one has ever done this. It
is
> >totally unacceptable.
> >
> >Simon
> >
> >
>
> First time I drank a can of beer was on Scout camp. IMHO it was better
> that me and my mates first started to drink under the supervision of
> responsible leaders by having the odd can of beer round the camp fire
> after the younger scouts were in bed, rather than down the park with a
> bottle of cider from the "Offy".
>
> --
>
> Alastair Rainsbury
>
> Akela 1st Marple Bradshaw Cub Scouts
>
Ewan Scott
wrote:
>In article <3a1fcbee...@news.mcmail.com>, Ewan Scott <ewan@scotia57
>.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:21:35 GMT, Alan Freeman
>><steakan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Wilkinson - the same as regularly posts here
>>>
>>>
>>>Nottingham Evening Post reports follows:-
>>>
>>>Tuesday 21 November 2000
>>>
>>> PARISH CLERK STOLE FOR AFRICAN SCOUTS - CLAIM
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>
>>Oh, such a heinous crime. Without condoning CW, has he done anything
>>which in principle is any worse than using the company photocopier
>>without permission?
>>
>>Has he gained financially or materially from his escapade? No?
>>
>>Then let the man consider his crime at his leisure, no need to post
>>like this.
>>
>>As for the poster, what are his credentials? On scanning a massive
>>archive of postings on my PC, the only one I can find from Alan
>>Freeman is to "out" someone who has perhaps overdone the principle of
>>unwitting employee donations to charity.
>>
>>At the final judgement, the Lord might ask CW, what was your crime? He
>>will reply , doubtless, I took property from the wealthy and gave to
>>the poor, with (we presume) no gain for myself.
>>AF, asked the same question, might confess, I threw the first stone,
>>Lord.
>>
snip
>I must say I am most disappointed with the views of some contributors,
>such as Ewan (above) who seem to be able to equate this with the
>unauthorised use of a photocopier or, as quoted in other posts, as the
>taking of a few paper clips.
You misunderstand.
Chris is one of many who has given good advice to myself over the past
couple of years. I consider him to be one of my many unseen freinds.
I will not condone his actions as reported. Neither will I out of hand
condemn the man.
I do find it reprehensible that so many seem so willing to turn their
back on him at this time. It seems all too common today, to be a
freind when times are good, but depart when troubles come.
When people who have, to my knowledge and my search of the archives
have not posted, make their first posts to condemn somone many of us
only know or knew as a fellow Scouter, then I must place my sympathies
with the condemned man. With freinds like these, who needs enemies.
You, have completely misconstrued my sentiment and my point.
I do not condone Chris, but if you steal a paper clip you are as
guilty as if you stole a computer. It therefore ill behoves others to
cast stones such as has been done here. I't is not for me to judge the
morals of the stonecasters, but I suspect that he who does judge will
have made a note in his pocketbook.
snip
>
>Surely to say these matters are minor is making a molehill out of a
>mountain!
>
>If you, Ewan, do not agree, the what limits would you make for such a
>thing to be acceptable or not acceptable?
Quite frankly it is unacceptable to steal, whether a paper clip or
anything else. The wrong is in the action, not the size of it. But
hey, that's my black and white-ish world.
>What effect will it have on young Scouts if they see such an example
>being classed as "acceptable practice" by their leaders?
Complete non-sequitur, I have NOT condoned CW. Nor do I condone his
actions. It is not acceptable. It so happends that I have been
involved in Scouting for a mere seven years. In that time I have used
company petrol, company telephone, company paper, and company time,
and at every single paper clip I ensured that my employer was aware of
my actions. had my employed said no, I would have sought other
sources. My wife sometimes uses company photocopying facilities, but
has offered to pay for the use. As a GSL I have advised my leaders and
exec that if they are using work facilities I wish them to get
permission, and if it is refused they should pay and be reombursed
from funds.
>Again, Ewan, you say that he was "someone who has perhaps overdone the
>principle of unwitting employee donations to charity."
> ^^^^^^^^^
In my eyes he has only done what many others do on a daily basis, but
on a larger scale. It is not right, but it does not warrant public
vilifying.
If my friend does wrong I might counsel against his action, I might
even advise him that if he continued his course of action I would have
no option but to report him. If I were unaware of his actions and
they later came to light, I might feel betrayed and turn my back on
him, or I might try and understand his actions and grant him the
benefit of the doubt, as a freind, and in that act of friendship offer
support. I would in neither circumstance countenance unmasking him
publicly in this way.
I would hope that I would never find myself in any similar
circumstance, but if I did I would hope, against hope, that those who
had professed to be my friends and colleagues up until that point
would remain supportive where they could. I suspect though that many
would be all too happy to cast stones. I then could take heart that I
was being attacked by nothing more than hypocrites and turncoats.
snip
>The press reports state that he was emigrating to work in Ugandan
>Scouting and hint that he was "feathering his nest" for his emigration.
>The quotes from ugandanetwork.org.uk appear to strengthen this view.
So facilitating the occupation of a future position from a current
position to better effect your work is "feathering one's nest". Rather
a narrow view of things.
>There are a lot of unanswered questions.
As you say, there are a lot of unanswered questions. But,...
>
>What we need is for Chris, eventually, to let us all know his side of
>the story - no doubt he is browsing silently through this group at this
>moment - so we can get a balanced view of this most tragic situation.
I doubt that this would serve any purpose, an apology, a word of
contrition, but any attempt to justify from CW would only be seen as
self serving. Chris, if you are out there, let it lie. Know that
though we cannot condone your actions, our thoughts are with you. As
they would be any one of our young people making such mistakes.
I don't think I can make my thoughts any clearer. I do not condone
Chris, but the public vilification is equally out of place as his
actions.
Ewan Scott
Alastair Rainsbury
<lapto...@madasafish.com> writes
>2 of my patrol leaders are regulars in my local!
>
>I know its wrong they know it wrong but far be it for me to criticises ( for
>I was doing the same thing at their age) - hazard of a rural community I
>afraid.
>
>However I my opinion a couple of pints in the snug where someone has half an
>eye on them is much better than secret drinking which to my misfortune all
>to well know the possible outcomes. For when I was at school one of my class
>mates who had been drinking under a railway bridge sadly came to his demise
>when he lost his footing and fell in the canal on his way home.
>
>
Really it's wrong of your PL's to put you in that position. When I was
of the appropriate age (16 to 17 and 9/10ths) the unwritten rule was
that the Ventures drank in the Navigation, and the Leaders drank in the
Ringer's. That way they were never put in the position of knowing that
there were underage drinkers in the pub. Now depending on your point of
view re underage drinking you might not think that matters much, but as
one of our ventures pointed out, if one of our parents had had a problem
with us drinking under age, and had caught us in the pub, it wouldn't
have looked very good if our Scout/Venture leaders were at the next
table!
Steve
<jo...@kennaugh.demon.co.uk> writes
> How would
>you react if you caught a Scout helping himself to a couple of quid out
>of the subs tin?
What about a Scout taking a few quid to pay for a uniform shirt for a
kid who can't afford one?
No-one, particularly anyone involved in voluntary charitable positions
of trust, should set themselves up as arbiter for the distribution of
aid, *no matter how unfair the current position seems*.
Chris has broken both the Scout law, and the civil law, and has
disqualified himself form any position of trust for a long time.
This is a pity - I have always valued his contributions, and am sure
he has taught a lot to many through his leadership.
To Chris I would say 'What a stupid thing to do...' and leave it at
that.
To anyone posting illiterate diatribes, and abuse, you reflect all that
is rotten in the movement today, and I will ignore you.
--
Steve
Marc@Home
> I too dispair at the poor attendance at this important event. I have
> tried various methods and had considered getting a British Legion bod
> along to talk about their experiences. Has anybody else actually done
> this?
I troed this year 6 weeks before the day I was told by the BL Local Sec
that they were " too busy selling poppies"
Marc
Andrew Stone
news:8vgdob$g4v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Chris Wilkinson - the same as regularly posts here
>
>
> The cost of a cooker, according to council documents, was £127.50; the
> cheque, unchecked when signed by Coun Stafford, was made out for
> £1,527.50.
>
After reading the thread and hearing from various contributors this is the
one passage that sticks out like a sore thumb.
If I allowed something like this to pass *I* would be sacked.
I do not wish to condon or condemn Chris on this NG, I have my own thoughts.
However, I feel that he has done a very foolish thing but when you read a
quote from a councillor like that, it crosses my mind that he succumbed to
temptation.
--
--
Andrew Stone
Andre...@hemscott.net
Portsmouthdists Scouts
"Dave Mayall" <david....@ukonline.co.uk> wrote
>
> There are no winners here. The Council haven't got their cash back.
> The Group (and Scouting in general) has been tarnished. The Uganda
> Network has been badly damaged. At the centre of it all, Chris has
> lost pretty much everything. His Job, His vocation, his good name.
>
> I hope that a custodial sentence doesn't ensue. The amount concerned
> is not vast, and however questionable the motive, there is no
> suggestion that the money was appropriated for his own use.
We could reduce the damage - A collection to repay the council would get
them their cash back, and go a long way to restoring the good name of
Scouting in general. I don't know Chris at all, apart from having read some
of his comments here, but I think an offer to chip in would be a better sign
of support than a mere expression of sympathy.
Jeremy
Dave Mayall
<jo...@kennaugh.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Stephen Rainsbury writes
>>
>>I wonder how many people HAVEN'T broken the law for their unit, e.g.
>>
>>Right so there are the stones, go one pick one up.
>
>OK
>
>>- use the firms Xerox without consent
>>- take home paper, stationary, selotape
>>- used the company phone/internet/e-mail for scouting
>
>As I am self employed I would be robbing myself.
... and the tax man.
I'm not sure that Scout photocopying is a legitimate business expense!
Marc@Home
> neither dear chap, i happen to be a businessman of some substance, and was
> on the verge of assisting my local scout group over an ongoing period, then
> i met chris wilkinson for a very short time and due to the manner in which i
> was spoken to, considering that he had never met me, or had no idea who i
> was i
He obviously didn't realise that you were a businessman of some
substance, and so didn't realise that the correct manner in which to
talk to you was on his knees with his head bowed and hands out.
Marc
Derek Biddle
Dave Mayall <david....@ukonline.co.uk> writes
--
Derek Biddle
Tim Jones
(Jonathan Bloor) wrote:
>
>I too dispair at the poor attendance at this important event. I have
>tried various methods and had considered getting a British Legion bod
>along to talk about their experiences. Has anybody else actually done
>this?
We seem to mange to get the attendance without having to apply any
pressure. I suspect we may be lucky in that our Cubs have a pretty
good understanding of what it is about without us pushing. I suppose
this may be due to work done in local schools. They seem to enjoy the
parade and will compete fiercely for the honour of carrying or
escorting our flag or laying the wreath.
Unfortunately the church service is invariably pitched at the adults.
We have tried for several years to get more youth involvement in the
service with little success and having found an ally in th local
legion who spoke up for youth involvement, this now seems to have
caused a major rift in the legion complete with resignations and
headlines in the local press!!!!
This years sermon by the vicar was about the value of support from
youth and how remebrance is important not to make you feel good
because you attended but as a way of recognising that war is too often
futile and destructive and should be avoided. He made a direct plea
to the legion to make the necessary changes to involve youth in the
ceremony. Our scouts thought this was all great and are thoroughly
looking forward to involvement in next years service, I don't think
that the powers that control the service can get away without
improvements next year, but feel that we should lead with some
suggestions. I think it would be great and somewhat poignant to
involve the youngsters in reading out the names on the Roll of Honour
(if thats what it's called), perhaps researching who these names were
and what they did our meetings leading up to Remembrance Sunday. The
legion seem to think that this might spoil the effect as a childs
"timourous, squeaky voice" may seem disrespectful. I think if we
could mingle young and old voices it would be a great and fitting act
of remembrance that should touch all involved.
I seem to be doing too much thinking aloud!!!! Has anyone else tried
anything similar or got any similar ideas?
Tim
Chris Atkinson
Luker <alan....@virgin.net> writes
> i happen to be a businessman of some substance,
>due to my contacts this organisation has recieved so much equiptment Etc
>that they are now passing surplus suplies to other branches of their
>organisation, this situation will continue as far as i am concerned because
>i am not dealing with a self opinionated prat,
while, so perhaps it's time to hammer a few more nails in by stating
that he does have the grievous fault of not suffering fools gladly. He
also has the annoying habit of quite deliberately deflating the pompous
and self-important ... ah well, none of us is perfect...
Chris A.
--
Chris Atkinson
ch...@cgautc.demon.co.uk UTC Computer Services
Honesty may be the best policy - but insanity's the better defence.
Ewan Scott
>
>I had a plan, a good plan I thought, lets invite a war veteran round and
>tell the kids what war is really like and what its like to loose a close
>firend, and why remeberence day is so special, do that the Friday before and
>I reckon we would have had twice as many, but nope, too scary for little
>Damien.
>
>We can sit and hear poems and some bloke in a frock talk about something
>that means absolutly NOTHING to most kids and they are not likely to learn
>about it in church, IMHO most kids of scout age do not have the concept of
>war and death, its still hollywood to them.
>
We have not been at a Remembrence Day service in the past two years.
Our District decided for us that we didn't want to attend the central
parade in Huddersfield, and not being a church going group we were not
invited by the church, nor the local Legion. I intend doing something
to remedy this. However, last year I brought in a memorial book from
one of our naton's once proud mercantile shipping firms, it listed the
name of every ship and every man who lost their lives, how and when.
It also gave actual, unabridged eye witnes accounts of the sinking of
a merchant vessel by a U-boat.
I read the "very detailed" description from one survivor as given at
his debriefing on return to port. I found it difficult to read, and
several of my Scouts were in tears by the time I had finished. One of
them said, it isn't really like it is in the films, is it.
I think you would need to be very careful about the old boy you
invited. I have known some who blocked out the bad stuff and could
only really talk about the good fun, the escapades. I recall my
father, the only time I have ever heard him talk of action in the
Korean war. he was being regailed by tales from the Spanish Civil War
and the "glory" of it. My father quietly returned with his tale of the
bravery of his sargeant, who died impaled by a babmoo stick fired from
a Korean mortar. And how the Americans laid on a barrage on a hilltop
the KOSB were to take, completely removing the top of the hill, when
they reached the top there was absolutely nothing left at all.
Not being a soldier, my own contribution to glory talk is of one of my
great uncles, invalided out of WW1 with shell shock, he spent the rest
of his life, as far as I know, in a hospice. When he died in the early
1980's the notice in the paper read " .... died of wounds received in
First World War."
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
Christine Turner
have any place within Scouting.
I agree that at times church services are at best staid and at worst boring.
At our Group the responsibility is given to the Scouts to prove their
loyalty (as we are a church sponsored group), by attending regular church
parades. It works.
Surely far too often the young people in our care are allowed to opt out.
If anyone is interested our Remembrance Parade Service was a great success,
a moving address aimed at both young and old, and the invitation to ask the
'old boys' wearing medals how they earned them. Our Beavers through to
Ventures feel an integral part of the church community, and whether
attending a church service regularly is a waste of time they are certainly
keen to tap the oldies in the church when they need sponsorship for
Jamborees and foreign trips.
If duty to God (any God) is no longer fashionable or required then petition
HQ.
YiS
Mark Turner
10th Harrogate(St Wilfrid's) Walsh's Own Scout Troop
"Bill Neobard" <bi...@neobard.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uX7v8VAy...@neobard.demon.co.uk...
> In article <MPG.148981e17...@news.btinternet.com>, Jonathan
> Bloor <jonatha...@zouch.org.uk> writes
> >In article <8vmvo5$d16$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> >Ste...@rainsbury.freeserve.co.uk says...
> >> Our GSL spouted off last week at how annoyed he was that only 2 scouts
and
> >> one leader turned up for remeberance day and started threatening that
he was
> >> going to re-introduce monthly parades, one APL said quite opnely that
if
> >> that was made compulsory then he would leave and the rest agreed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I too dispair at the poor attendance at this important event. I have
> >tried various methods and had considered getting a British Legion bod
> >along to talk about their experiences. Has anybody else actually done
> >this?
> >
> >---
> >Jonathan Bloor
> >SL, AHSG, Leics
> >My Views only...
> >www.ashby-hastings.org.uk
> No: seems like a good plan.
>
> On the Remembrance day attendance front, our PLC talked through Church
> parades with the Troop in Jan. They all agreed on 3 per year -as
> previously noted here. We told our scouts that as most of them hadnt
> been arsed to come to any, they should seriously think whether their
> Promise meant anything to them -pointing out (no pressure, of course!)
> that they had taken the Promise voluntarily and had chosen 3 CPs
> voluntarily.
> I put a note out by mail to each parent telling them that we would not
> wish any scout to come to CP if either he/she or the parents had
> scruples that pointed them away from either our church or churches in
> general.
> All bar 2 turned up, and the remaining 2 rang with good (other event)
> reasons for not coming. We spoke to all individually to thank them
> afterwards, and they all said the reason they didn't normally come was
> down to laziness and the wish to lie in bed on Sundays - or other
> things, like football. No "theism" reasons.
>
> What good did them coming do? Probably on the religious front, very
> little. On the "loyalty" front -somewhat more, and from the PR front -
> the rest of the congregation -a lot. Our GSL had threatened various
> things, but none was needed.
> --
> Bill Neobard
Mike Parmley
>
>I too dispair at the poor attendance at this important event. I have
>tried various methods and had considered getting a British Legion bod
>along to talk about their experiences. Has anybody else actually done
>this?
We have almost full attendance at Remembrance Day and St.G.
We point out to the Scouts that we expect them to attend these two events
during the year.
Non attendance gets grief from all the other members for letting the team
down, and grief from the leaders for letting us down. We point out to them
that if we were going out on a jolly they would be there, so on these two
occasions their attendance is required.
There are no threats or forfeits - just letting them know what is expected
of them. It is also in our members info pack, so nobody can say that they
don't know about it.
YiS
Mike
--
Mike Parmley - ASL 1st Tupton, Chesterfield
These views are my own and do not reflect those of my employers or group.
John Kennaugh
>>As I am self employed I would be robbing myself.
>
>... and the tax man.
>
>I'm not sure that Scout photocopying is a legitimate business expense!
>
has (by my accountant) a hefty percentage taken off for 'personal use'
as agreed with the tax man :o(
--
John Kennaugh
stephen rainsbury
> Non attendance gets grief from all the other members for letting the team
> down, and grief from the leaders for letting us down.
When nobody else is there no one can point a finger.
I stall ask the question what do people expect a 10.5-14 year old to get
from remembrance day parade?
So far Ewan has come closest to a good answer and that wasn't a parade
stephen rainsbury
news:8vumcf$11c8$1...@news.beeb.net...
> The whole discussion here is verging on whether church parades & religion
> have any place within Scouting.
Its beynd vergeing I openly challenge anyone to give me a good reason that I
can give to my scouts!
IMHO Church parade is not the place to learn about people dieing in war,
show then "Saving Private Ryan" they will soon get the picture, and far more
long lasting that some bloke they have never met talking at them about
flowers dieing in a field.
Kids today see death all the time in cartoons, books, TV, whatever, but to
most of them it isn't real, the bloke in the pulpit on chruch parade is just
as unreal.
I have no objction to an event of remeberance, indeed if someone could give
me an alternative that works (like Ewan's idea) then I can't see how the
district can object.
If however, the real answer is for my scouts to act as a decoration at
someone elses event, to make it look nice, then forget it. Thats no why me
or my troop joined scouts.
> I agree that at times church services are at best staid and at worst
boring.
>
> At our Group the responsibility is given to the Scouts to prove their
> loyalty (as we are a church sponsored group), by attending regular church
> parades. It works.
In your case you are stuffed, you don't have a choice, we do despite the
attempts of our GSL to bring us closer. We have our own HQ, a suitable stash
in the bank to buy a new roof, we don't need the church to survive as a
group, and making the kids go is IMHO more liklely to be harmfull.
> Surely far too often the young people in our care are allowed to opt out.
We can't teach independance of thought and action on Friday night then take
it away on Sunday.
> If anyone is interested our Remembrance Parade Service was a great
success,
> a moving address aimed at both young and old, and the invitation to ask
the
> 'old boys' wearing medals how they earned them.
Wasn't allowed to do that in case it upset all the little Damiens.
> If duty to God (any God) is no longer fashionable or required then
petition
> HQ.
I have, and put a comment on the PRG form. And its not because its not
fashionable, I have a deal with the Vicar, he doesn't teach camp skills, I
don't teach religion. It works well.
Dave Mayall
<christi...@beeb.net> wrote:
>The whole discussion here is verging on whether church parades & religion
>have any place within Scouting.
>
>I agree that at times church services are at best staid and at worst boring.
>
>At our Group the responsibility is given to the Scouts to prove their
>loyalty (as we are a church sponsored group), by attending regular church
>parades. It works.
>
>Surely far too often the young people in our care are allowed to opt out.
Do you want to try that one again.
The day that any Group I am in attempts to prevent a member from
opting out of attending a religious service is the day I hand in my
warrant.
Requiring attendance at a religious observance as a condition of
membership is immoral.
Robert Goodrick
Dave Mayall wrote:
>
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:14:22 -0000, "Christine Turner"
> <christi...@beeb.net> wrote:
>
> >The whole discussion here is verging on whether church parades & religion
> >have any place within Scouting.
Yes it dose POR page 16
> >I agree that at times church services are at best staid and at worst boring.
Totally agree with you on that.
> >
> >At our Group the responsibility is given to the Scouts to prove their
> >loyalty (as we are a church sponsored group), by attending regular church
> >parades. It works.
Forcing someone to attend church, whether they are a church sponsored
group or not dose not make them loyal. I was forced to attend church as
a Scout (late 50 early 60) it turned me off going, which dose not mean
that I do not go to church, on the country, I go when I wont to, not
when someone says that I have to. As for Remembrance Day, we have a
Legion sponsored group who did not attend, they did there Remembrance at
there meetings with people from the Legion.
> >
> >Surely far too often the young people in our care are allowed to opt out.
I have found that forcing someone to attend will make them opt out
>
> Do you want to try that one again.
>
> The day that any Group I am in attempts to prevent a member from
> opting out of attending a religious service is the day I hand in my
> warrant.
>
> Requiring attendance at a religious observance as a condition of
> membership is immoral.
>
I totally agree with this comment.
I live by the old Scout Law & Promise
Honour --- Duty --- Loyal
On my Honour --- credit for acting well; good name
I --- as a person or thing identified as "I". The person who is
speaking or writing. It's a personal Statement.
Promise --- The word that binds a person to do or not do something. A
special word.
that I will do my Best --- It means what it says.
DO. --- carry out, perform.
MY. --- done by me or myself. No one else.
BEST. --- The most desirable, valuable, superior, the greatest.
to do my duty to God
my and duty have been covered
God --- Each youth and Adult have there own way as myself their OWN way
in which they serve God. Its the same as the "I" after Honour, a
personal statement.
and to the Queen, --- Obeying the laws of the Country.
to help other people --- some of the comments at the begging of this
sting some people ought to take note. I myself go out of my way to do a
good turn every day, which is why I have been branded as "The Phantom
Scouter" within my District. I do not got out looking for medals or
recognition, I do it for the look of happiness on that persons face.
and obey the Scout Law.
Yes I am a trainer, and I do this one Woodbadge I, it gets people
thinking.
I live in Canada, born and bread just outside of Blackpool, one of the
founding Scouts at 1st Norbreck, beaver helper in Canada, Ast Cub
leader, Akela, Pack Service Team, ADC Pack and still involved in
Scouting. Yes you can call me one of the "lerkers" and I have been
reading this NG for the last three months, there are times that I would
like to make comments, but my POR is not up to date (1995) so I will not
put my foot in my mouth.
The only thing I have to say about to people thing of opting out of the
NG, DON'T your input is worth a lot to every one out there which is why
it is called "The Brotherhood of Scouting"
Yours in Scouting.
Robert Goodrick
40th BP Guild.
Robert Goodrick
stephen rainsbury wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Non attendance gets grief from all the other members for letting the team
> > down, and grief from the leaders for letting us down.
>
> When nobody else is there no one can point a finger.
>
> I stall ask the question what do people expect a 10.5-14 year old to get
> from remembrance day parade?
Lest We Forget.
Honour --- Duty --- Loyal
Robert Goodrick.
40th BP Guild
>
> So far Ewan has come closest to a good answer and that wasn't a parade
James Bentall
> >loyalty (as we are a church sponsored group), by attending regular
> >church
> >parades. It works.
> >
> >Surely far too often the young people in our care are allowed to opt
> >out.
>
> Do you want to try that one again.
>
> The day that any Group I am in attempts to prevent a member from
> opting out of attending a religious service is the day I hand in my
> warrant.
>
> Requiring attendance at a religious observance as a condition of
> membership is immoral.
I expect my cubs to do their 'duty to God' - whether that's at a parade
service or not, I'm not that worried. We provide the YP's with an
opportunity to do this by arranging church parade services (we are not a
church sponsored group) - if they turn up, that's fine - if not I expect
them to do their duty to God in some other way. As long as they are
thinking about their promise and taking it seriously - I think that's
alright.
Apart from anything else, I have cubs who are not Christians in my pack,
and the thought of making, say, my cub who is a Buddhist turn up to a
church parade service at the local C of E church is just not going to
happen.
James
--
--
James Bentall
CSL and PGCE student when time permits.
email: jim...@bigfoot.com
Andrew Stone
news:8ah82t4li591naefe...@news.ukonline.co.uk...
Hear, hear.
I go to church because I choose to, I will not force anyone else.
However not all Churches/Clergy work well with YP/Youths. Some do a very
good job.
BTW Dave, please don't forget it is Christingle and Toy service this Sunday.
--
--
Andrew Stone
Andre...@hemscott.net
I have in the past written to a GSL to point out that I felt that the Church
Parade and service at a particlar Church was not conducive with the aims of
Scouting.
ag...@my-deja.com
>
> Requiring attendance at a religious observance as a condition of
> membership is immoral.
>
Ditto.
The Scout promise includes '..to do MY duty to God..'.
They promise to do what THEY beleive is THEIR duty according to THEIR
beleifs.
If they beleive that the 'higher being' that they beleve in would
prefer that they spent their time doing *good thngs* with their life
rather than spend time in a church every week preying and singing, then
they are keeping their promise. If they beleive that their duty is to
go to Church once a week, they by doing that, they are keeping theirs.
Personally, I do not like Churches. These are buildings made by MAN,
they were not created. I therefore do not attend Church services - I
would rather be out in a wood or a field, surrounded by the gifts that
were create for us and say my thanks there (anyone who has been to camp
with me will know that I often just wonder off for half an hour on my
own - that is what I am doing).
As Scout Leaders, we should be encouraging our YP to discover their own
beleifs and to then develop them and remain true to what they have
discovered for themselves. Forcing people to do what they are told
with religion is, I beleive, not the right way to go about things.
Leslie
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Alison
<opting out of attending a religious service is the day I hand in my>
<warrant.>
<Requiring attendance at a religious observance as a condition of>
<membership is immoral.>
I agree with you totally. Unfortunately there are an awful lot of people in
& out of scouting who think that church parades etc is what scouting is all
about. We, of course, know different. As people on the NG have said there
are many, many other ways in which our YP can do their duty to their god and
if they feel they would like to attend a church parade or such like that is
fine too.
Alison
Si Jerram
<The day that any Group I am in attempts to prevent a member from>
<opting out of attending a religious service is the day I hand in my>
<warrant.>
<Requiring attendance at a religious observance as a condition of>
<membership is immoral.>
I wish I could get this across to me dad.
He and the church he attends have some very strange
ideas about what they can expect of their Scouts.
(Not a million miles from you Dave/Andrew.)
Marc@Home
> He and the church he attends have some very strange
> ideas about what they can expect of their Scouts.
"Their Scouts"?
Like their Barbie dolls?
Marc
Si Jerram
Marc@Home wrote in message
<1ekvbe1.rlj...@jaceeprint.demon.co.uk>...
>Si Jerram <SJerram...@NTLWorld.c0m> wrote:
>"Their Scouts"?
>Like their Barbie dolls?
Mmm quite.
stephen rainsbury
Robert Goodrick <rgoo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A24BEA1...@home.com...
<snip>
> > I stall ask the question what do people expect a 10.5-14 year old to get
> > from remembrance day parade?
>
> Lest We Forget.
>
> Honour --- Duty --- Loyal
>
That's the theory I agree, and maybe VS or ES would get that but the average
10 year old round hear can only hear a man with noises coming out of his
mouth and see a load of old flags, the actually message is completely lost,
and the object of the exercise fails.
Honour? War is not honourable
Duty? to who? The scout? Queen, etc... we have been round the buoy on this
one so many times that boat only has barnacles on one side.
Loyal, again to whom?