Happy Camping!
Pete
time when many of us dig our tents back out.
I'm off to Thriftwood next week with the Troop & Unit, then on to the flexi
IST for the second weekend of EuroJam - lets hope the weather we've had down
here in the south east over the last few weeks holds :o)
Have a good summer of Scouting ...
Pete
--
Peter Maley
SL, 3rd Whitstable
ESL, Tombstones ESU
Steve Hulka
> time when many of us dig our tents back out.
>
> I'm off to Thriftwood next week with the Troop & Unit, then on to the flexi
> IST for the second weekend of EuroJam - lets hope the weather we've had down
> here in the south east over the last few weeks holds :o)
>
> Have a good summer of Scouting ...
I will, but not with my own Troop unfortunately.
Despite including the dates for Summer Camp on every termly programme
since last September, out of a Troop of 26 I can't get enough to make it
worthwhile (ie, only 2 (yes, two) for the whole ten days, and a couple
of others for just part of it).
Considering I had 14 on camp at the same time of year last year, I am
more than a little disappointed (well and truly hacked off would be a
better term for it). The problem for the majority is family holidays
clashing. Despite the fact they've known the date since last year.
So, bugger it, I'm off to the lakes with another Troop up the road,
along with around 20 lads - including one of mine that was going to go
on our camp, and doesn't want to miss out (and why should he?).
Now, I need to carefully consider the wording of the letter that's going
to go around the Troop's parents after the summer break... any
suggestions would be welcome...
Steve
Graham Drabble
news:11dq9c8...@corp.supernews.com:
> I'm off to Thriftwood next week with the Troop & Unit, then on to
> the flexi IST for the second weekend of EuroJam - lets hope the
> weather we've had down here in the south east over the last few
> weeks holds :o)
I'm on Cricket Camp Saturday 23rd - Thursday 28th with Cubs and the
Buddens with the Scouts Saturday 30th - Friday 5th. If anyone else from
here is around then do come and say hello.
--
Graham Drabble
QM / ACSL 1st Hassocks
http://www.drabble.me.uk/
GL
news:Xns9698B40BCE735gr...@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de...
> On 19 Jul 2005 "Pete" <psm...@despammed.com> wrote in
> news:11dq9c8...@corp.supernews.com:
>
>> I'm off to Thriftwood next week with the Troop & Unit, then on to
>> the flexi IST for the second weekend of EuroJam - lets hope the
>> weather we've had down here in the south east over the last few
>> weeks holds :o)
>
> I'm on Cricket Camp Saturday 23rd - Thursday 28th with Cubs and the
> Buddens with the Scouts Saturday 30th - Friday 5th. If anyone else from
> here is around then do come and say hello.
I take it you mean the Buddens in Dorset, if so we are there the same week.
Unfortunately the interest in the camp has been very low and the ratio of
adults to yp is getting silly. At the moment we have five adults and eight
kids - the smallest camp I have ever been on in terms of the number of
youngsters attending.
--
Graham Lucas
Common Sense will prevail - one day!
Ewan Scott
"Steve Hulka" <ne...@scouts.296.org.uk> wrote in message
news:dbjb3v$2f41$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch...
surprise there. If most parents are like many I know with full time jobs
they can have to select their holiday time as much as a year in advance, and
sometimes are lucky to get what they want.
Best you ask when their holidays are and book your camp to suit the
majority, surely.
Ewan Scott
Pete
>> Have a good summer of Scouting ...
>
>
> I will, but not with my own Troop unfortunately.
>
Its strange - I've been building up since I took over as SL and again I've
got more this year than last (9/12 Scouts + 5/5 Explorers). However I do
know that several Troops in the district have cancelled their camps this
year due to lack of numbers.
I had the father of one of the three not coming (he's one of the older ones
and hasn't ever been on a week summer camp, despite several attempts at
convincing him) ring me up a couple of nights back. At first I thought he
was wanting to come this year after all, but no ... he was after the dates
of next years summer camp!! Still, at least they're going to make sure
their family holiday doesn't clash next year (we always camp the same week
every year) which will mean only 2 more to go and I'll have a full house!
James Bentall
"Ewan Scott" <ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Best you ask when their holidays are and book your camp to suit the
> majority, surely.
>
> Ewan Scott
We normally go away towards the end of August for our week camp
(although back by bank holiday weekend!), which seems to work better -
most families around here seem to go away in the last part of July/First
part of August. Works for us anyway.
YiS
James
--
James Bentall - SL 2nd Hatfield
Email - un1...@midhertsscouts.org.uk
http://www.brookmans.com/scouts
Do you Baloo? http://www.baloo.org.uk
Badger
>
> I'm on Cricket Camp Saturday 23rd - Thursday 28th with Cubs and the
> Buddens with the Scouts Saturday 30th - Friday 5th. If anyone else from
> here is around then do come and say hello.
>
Steve Hulka
> We normally go away towards the end of August for our week camp
> (although back by bank holiday weekend!), which seems to work better -
> most families around here seem to go away in the last part of July/First
> part of August. Works for us anyway.
That's when my camp was going to be... ten days, finishing on Bank
Holiday Monday, same as last year.
The Troop I'm going with instead are going at the start of the holidays,
this coming Saturday, and they've got over half the Troop (about 18)
going. They have always gone at the same time every year aswell.
Like I said, it's the same time as last year, the date has been out
since just a few days after getting back from the last Summer Camp...
with a Troop of 26, you can't ask everyone for a date that suits them,
because it will always clash with someone's holidays... but I hoped they
were getting the message by now.
What makes this even worse is that I lose all but one of my Patrol
Leaders in September, and Summer Camp is a great place for spotting good
replacements. Looks like I'll have one S.P.L. and a dozen A.P.Ls next term!
Steve
Paul Harris
<ne...@scouts.296.org.uk> writes
>
>Now, I need to carefully consider the wording of the letter that's
>going to go around the Troop's parents after the summer break... any
>suggestions would be welcome...
>
is to make the most of the opportunities that are offered to them. The
Parents can and will take their holidays when it suits them often with
little or no thought about things such as Scout Camp. The yp have to
decide which option to choose from the opportunities presented.
It can be frustrating but no amount of moaning will change the situation
so make the most of it and go and enjoy yourself with those who want to
go camping and don't worry about those who had to make the difficult
decision of which offer to choose. I am just surprised that some of the
Parents didn't take the chance to get away for a while without their
offspring.
--
Paul Harris
Dave
Just tell them that you had a good time with the other group.
We must have different kids/parents to you as we often find that if a kid
wants to come on camp they will - even if the parents are going on holiday
at the same time.
We often get parents asking when camp is too so that they can book a holiday
whilst the scout is on camp.
Some of course go on both and I have known being in France where a parent
drove to our site to drop off and pick a Scout up as it was in the middle of
their family camping holiday in a different part of France.
DaveB
West Yorks
Eddie Langdown
I agree about the PL's.... but it's the opposite for us, we normally have
near 100% at Summer Camp, last year 3 patrols of 6, but this year, same week
and we have 10 our of 22, but nearly all PL material, se we have 2 PL's each
patrol sharing 3 days each!
What scuppered us was a church camp that about 8 are attending.
Eddie
Stephen Rainsbury
news:dbjdgk$dor$2...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Let's see. Your camp clashed with family holidays.... and lost out. No big
> surprise there. If most parents are like many I know with full time jobs
> they can have to select their holiday time as much as a year in advance,
and
> sometimes are lucky to get what they want.
Due to the local Nazis in the education department next tear our schools
will be on a six term year and our kids will only get 5 weeks off in the
summer. To make things worse they are now aggressively perusing the policy
of refusing kids time off school during term time to go on holiday and
fining the parents.
This makes arranging dates damn awkward
The last week includes a bank holiday so that could be a parental favourite,
so we are probably best going for the first week and finishing on Friday to
give the families maximum choice of which week.
Oh but hang on!!!
All of the group kit will be out this year for the first time in ages, all 6
patrol tents, dining shelters, all the lights and all the cookers, because
there will be over 30 of us on site.
So when can the cubs go?
They did an opinion survey the school holidays, the majority wanted to keep
things the same as now, with 6.5 weeks holiday, but we were over ruled as
somehow it saves money, I have no idea how, but you can bet your bottom
dollar that the last people to benefit will be the actual school kids.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Stephen Rainsbury
7/8 explorers and 8 adults, which is a bit more than a few years back where
we only had 5 kids and 6 adults. Mind you that was probably the best camp we
ever had.
We are at Belchamps (Nr Southend) from 7th - 13th August so if you are in
the area drop and fancy a cuppa drop me a line and we can swap mobile
numbers as much of the programme has been left flexible.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
Paul Harris
Rainsbury <ste...@rainsbury.net> writes
>
>They did an opinion survey the school holidays, the majority wanted to keep
>things the same as now, with 6.5 weeks holiday, but we were over ruled as
>somehow it saves money, I have no idea how, but you can bet your bottom
>dollar that the last people to benefit will be the actual school kids.
>
summer period giving more holidays during the cooler parts of the year
equals a saving on heating bills. Unless of course anyone else has a
better theory.
--
Paul Harris
chalky
Stephen Rainsbury wrote:
> "Ewan Scott" <ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:dbjdgk$dor$2...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> > Let's see. Your camp clashed with family holidays.... and lost out. No big
> > surprise there. If most parents are like many I know with full time jobs
> > they can have to select their holiday time as much as a year in advance,
> and
> > sometimes are lucky to get what they want.
Holidays in the uk have changed dramatically over the past couple of
decades. Very few firms now have a fixed annual "shut-down" for a
couple of weeks in the summer. That's a throw-back to the 1950's and
before. I recall working for a firm up in Warrrington that used to have
a shut-down in summer for a 2 or 3 week period when they would do
repair, rebuild, maintenance work on parts of the plant (such as
furnaces) but that ended back in the 1980's (when the furnace processes
ended also).
Most people now have somewhere between 20-25 day (4 or 5-week) flexible
holidays. Most is still taken to a roughly standard pattern: 1-week at
Xmas, 1-week at Easter, 2-weeks in the Summer (July/Aug), and (for
those on 25-days) 1 week taken in odd days spread throughout the year.
(Those on 20 days take shorter times off at Xmas and Easter to build up
their week of odd days).
Increasingly with flexible working practices there are people now that
have flexi-months off plus as there are also many more part-time
workers they too have more flexible holiday arrangements.
There is now really no standard holiday pattern. The days when Camp was
always (for many) the first week of the school holidays because dad and
or mum were still working are fast disappearing. That week now tends to
be the main week that starts the family holiday.
Many more families are taking longer summer holidays with 2 or 3 -weeks
being the norm now not just 1 or 2-weeks. In fact many more families
are now taking 2 holidays (often abroad now that travel there is
relatively cheap) in the year!
You also have many more clubs and planned activities, some run by LEA's
to make use of the empty schools in the summer.
There's a lot of competition out there!
I would say that unless your group has a fixed tradition of Camp going
back a relatively long way you will find it hard to compete.
Alternatives have to be looked at. Whit/half-term at the end of May is
becoming more popular, and will be even more so now that groups have
only up to 14 year olds and there isn't the problem of GCSE's. And of
course there's Easter. It's also less "competitive" towards the end of
the summer holidays in late August but there you have the problem of
framilies meeting the cost of Camp especially if they've just spent a
few weeks abroad. I know of some troops who have Camp in the October
half-term.
>
> Due to the local Nazis in the education department next tear our schools
> will be on a six term year and our kids will only get 5 weeks off in the
> summer.
A friend who is a scouter and who works in the LEA won't like you
calling him a NaZI! :-)
20 LEA's are piloting a 6-term year starting next school year. These
are: Bath & NE somerset, Bristol, Derbyshire, East sussex, Glos., Kent,
Lincs., MEDWAY (yours I believe), newham, NE Lincs, N Somerset, Oxon,
Reading, Rotherham, Rutland, S Glos, Swindon, W berkshire, Wilts,
Windsor & maidenhead.
For Medway the dates are:
Start Term 1 = 01-Sep-05
Start Holiday 1 = 24-Oct-05
Start Term 2= 31-Oct-05
Start Holiday 2 = 19-Dec-05
Start term 3 = 03-Jan-06
Start hoilday 3 = 13-Feb-06
Start term 4 = 20-Feb-06
Start holiday 4=03-Apr-06
Start term 5= 19-Apr-06
Start holiday 5= 29-May-06
Start term 6= 05-Jun-06
Start holiday 6 = 26-Jul-06
Most of the other triallists have similar dates.
There are lots of things in favour of this arrangement. There are lots
of good arguments against!
> To make things worse they are now aggressively perusing the policy
> of refusing kids time off school during term time to go on holiday and
> fining the parents.
That is a policy many LEA's are adopting nowadays. The policy is to
allow up to 2 weeks off during term time to accomodate those families
who had difficulty in arranging holdays or child cover during the
normal holiday period (e.g. baecause mum or dad had fixed holidays out
side of july and august). It was meant to be an exception not a rule,
however, many now see it as a privilege and a chance to take the
opportunity of beating the higher holiday prices in the main holidays
as well as the crowds.
While unauthorised absences (truancy) are a problem still in many
schools, authorsied absences are growing ever more, much more than
those beyond sick days, funerals or visits to the dentist, doctor,
hospital, etc. for which they really were intended. Some figures I saw
some months ago (forget where so cant check on their veracity) show
that actual school attendance in late June and july was down to some
63%.
>
> This makes arranging dates damn awkward
Its a competition now! either compete or change your dates.
>
> The last week includes a bank holiday so that could be a parental favourite,
> so we are probably best going for the first week and finishing on Friday to
> give the families maximum choice of which week.
No one really knows what impact the new 6-term year will have so a lot
is guesswork!
As its only a relatively small number trialling this option I would be
fairly sure that holiday/travel companys will stick to their
traditional pricing system. Hence one would expect that families in
6-term year LEAs will generally look to take the family holiday when
the schoolls are out (in the 6 holiday periods) and when these also
fall outside of the peak holiday/pricing season. You would expect to
find the peak season reducing and more load being shifted to other
times. Many more might get away in holiday 4 and then again for a week
in holiday 5 (and tag on a week authorised absence to the latter). Who
knows!!?
>
> Oh but hang on!!!
>
> All of the group kit will be out this year for the first time in ages, all 6
> patrol tents, dining shelters, all the lights and all the cookers, because
> there will be over 30 of us on site.
>
> So when can the cubs go?
Some other time obviously! (Or maybe you need more equipment!)
>
> They did an opinion survey the school holidays, the majority wanted to keep
> things the same as now, with 6.5 weeks holiday, but we were over ruled as
> somehow it saves money, I have no idea how, but you can bet your bottom
> dollar that the last people to benefit will be the actual school kids.
Actually many surveys showed support for a 5 or 6 term year. (CTCs
already have a 5 term year which is popular).
There are pluses and minuses wherever you look.
I think these days you have to be a little more imaginative about
timing Camp and what Camp should actually be.
Its very difficult to sell to some young people the idea these days
that a week in a field in "sunny" wales or the lakes is so much better
than a week in disneyland or on the beach in the med or the canarys or
elsewhere.
Our culture on holidays is very much strongly focused on a family
holiday and very unlike other countries such as north america where
sending the kids away to camp is very much a tradition (but the people
there also tend to get fewer holidays and not the 25-days or more we
get over here so camp is a ncessary childminding exercise for them in
some cases.)
SW
Dave
"chalky" <gslc...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1121852443.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
SNIP
> 20 LEA's are piloting a 6-term year starting next school year. These
> are: Bath & NE somerset, Bristol, Derbyshire, East sussex, Glos., Kent,
> Lincs., MEDWAY (yours I believe), newham, NE Lincs, N Somerset, Oxon,
> Reading, Rotherham, Rutland, S Glos, Swindon, W berkshire, Wilts,
> Windsor & maidenhead.
>
Where I live was going to - but in the end decided against it due to
pressure from the public.
I don't know how it will work in various areas (which I guess is why they
are trialling it - to find out), but here there was a lot of people against
who have children spread across different schooling arrangements who were
not changing. For instance where you have a child at a private school and
others in "normal" schools, or where one child is at one local authority
school and the other in a different local authority. In these cases there
were too many times when the children were not available together and making
child care arrangements a nightmare.
> For Medway the dates are:
> Start Term 1 = 01-Sep-05
> Start Holiday 1 = 24-Oct-05
> Start Term 2= 31-Oct-05
> Start Holiday 2 = 19-Dec-05
> Start term 3 = 03-Jan-06
> Start hoilday 3 = 13-Feb-06
> Start term 4 = 20-Feb-06
> Start holiday 4=03-Apr-06
> Start term 5= 19-Apr-06
> Start holiday 5= 29-May-06
> Start term 6= 05-Jun-06
> Start holiday 6 = 26-Jul-06
>
> Most of the other triallists have similar dates.
>
Start term on a Thursday for 7 weeks and 2 days, then 1 week off, 7 weeks at
school, 2 weeks and 1 day off, 5 weeks 4 days at school, 1 week off, 6 weeks
at school, 2 weeks 2 days off, 5 weeks 3 days at school, 1 week off, 7 weeks
2 days at school then 6 weeks off.
Obviously taking in extra days for when Easter is not at the appropriate
time (Friday and Monday at least), plus all the training days that teachers
have.
> There are lots of things in favour of this arrangement. There are lots
> of good arguments against!
>
I can see that it balances the lengths of the terms at school - but I
thought that the whole idea of this scheme was to have a shorter holiday
where the 6weeks are now - that hasn't changed. I just hope that allthe
schools in a given area are having the same dates as it is bad enough now
with some fininshing a week before others etc.
SNIP
> SW
>
DaveB
West Yorks
chalky
Actually the proposals do not centre on financial reasons. The school
year will still be 190 days for pupils and 195 for staff.
The reasons for the change to a 6-term year are variously:
1. Consistency across the country. (LEAs and schools currently set
dates for holidays, terms, etc, and these can differ widely.)
2. Terms of uneven length disrupt curriculum planning and delivery,
particularly when the spring and summer terms are decided by the date
of Easter.
3. Parents tend to take their kids out of school in term time when
there are increasingly varied holiday patterns.
4. The most radical changes are to extend the october break. Surveys
show that pupil and teacher sickness and exclusions rise in an extended
autumn term. A longer break in the middle is hoped to relieve the
stress that builds up as the term drags on towards christmas.
5. when easter falls early or late then the spring term is either too
long or too short and interupts teaching and effective preparation for
public examinations. Many pupils sitting GCSE and A levels complain
that when the term is too short there's not enough exam preparation
time.
6. standardisation it is believed will hewlp parents with arrangement
of holidays and child care.
7. holidays become more evenly spread across the year and there is less
likely to be a tendency to see authorised absences during term time.
8. the summer term can be used to provide more effective preparation
for pupils entering tertiary education.
9. provides the possibility to move examinations earlier allowing
applications to tertiary education to be made on the actual grades
acheived rather than on forecasts. this could then lead to moving the
summer holiday slightly earlier and beggining term 1 a bit earlier.
(the holiday length would still be 5 weeks and a day)
SW
Paul Harris
<dave.ba...@virgin.net> writes
>
>"chalky" <gslc...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1121852443.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Start holiday 6 = 26-Jul-06
>>
>> Most of the other triallists have similar dates.
>>
>
>Start term on a Thursday for 7 weeks and 2 days, then 1 week off, 7 weeks at
>school, 2 weeks and 1 day off, 5 weeks 4 days at school, 1 week off, 6 weeks
>at school, 2 weeks 2 days off, 5 weeks 3 days at school, 1 week off, 7 weeks
>2 days at school then 6 weeks off.
>
>I can see that it balances the lengths of the terms at school - but I
>thought that the whole idea of this scheme was to have a shorter holiday
>where the 6weeks are now - that hasn't changed.
Perhaps there is a time warp but if it works the same where you are 26
July to 1 September isn't quite six weeks.
--
Paul Harris
Paul Harris
chalky <gslc...@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>Paul Harris wrote:
>> In message <tZeDe.7078$yP3....@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Stephen
>> Rainsbury <ste...@rainsbury.net> writes
>> >
>> >They did an opinion survey the school holidays, the majority wanted to keep
>> >things the same as now, with 6.5 weeks holiday, but we were over ruled as
>> >somehow it saves money, I have no idea how, but you can bet your bottom
>> >dollar that the last people to benefit will be the actual school kids.
>> >
>> Can I suggest that they save money by reducing holidays during the warm
>> summer period giving more holidays during the cooler parts of the year
>> equals a saving on heating bills. Unless of course anyone else has a
>> better theory.
>
>Actually the proposals do not centre on financial reasons. The school
>year will still be 190 days for pupils and 195 for staff.
>
I was just addressing Stephen's point that it he was told it saves money
by putting forward a possible scenario in which it could be seen to save
some money by not being open as much during the colder part of the year.
I didn't doubt that there were lots of other reasons but thanks for
giving us some insight into what was behind the decision to try it.
>The reasons for the change to a 6-term year are variously:
>1. Consistency across the country. (LEAs and schools currently set
>dates for holidays, terms, etc, and these can differ widely.)
Of course with some doing this and some not they have achieved totally
the opposite.
>2. Terms of uneven length disrupt curriculum planning and delivery,
>particularly when the spring and summer terms are decided by the date
>of Easter.
I never could fathom how Christmas was always the same date each year
and Easter moved around.
>3. Parents tend to take their kids out of school in term time when
>there are increasingly varied holiday patterns.
I can see it might help with that.
>4. The most radical changes are to extend the october break. Surveys
>show that pupil and teacher sickness and exclusions rise in an extended
>autumn term. A longer break in the middle is hoped to relieve the
>stress that builds up as the term drags on towards christmas.
It's a real shame the rest of us don't get similar chances :-)
--
Paul Harris
chalky
Dave wrote:
> "chalky" <gslc...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1121852443.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> SNIP
> > 20 LEA's are piloting a 6-term year starting next school year. These
> > are: Bath & NE somerset, Bristol, Derbyshire, East sussex, Glos., Kent,
> > Lincs., MEDWAY (yours I believe), newham, NE Lincs, N Somerset, Oxon,
> > Reading, Rotherham, Rutland, S Glos, Swindon, W berkshire, Wilts,
> > Windsor & maidenhead.
> >
>
> Where I live was going to - but in the end decided against it due to
> pressure from the public.
Surprising that, most show a majority in favour.
>
> I don't know how it will work in various areas (which I guess is why they
> are trialling it - to find out), but here there was a lot of people against
> who have children spread across different schooling arrangements who were
> not changing. For instance where you have a child at a private school and
> others in "normal" schools, or where one child is at one local authority
> school and the other in a different local authority. In these cases there
> were too many times when the children were not available together and making
> child care arrangements a nightmare.
Yes. If you look at the list of triallists you will notice that there
are some groups of LEAs. In these cases LEAs have decided that it needs
a geographic group of LEAs to make the trial effective.
There were a number of LEAs interested in joining the trial but
couldn't because they couldn't reach agreement with surrounding LEAs.
This is a local authority initiative not a government led one.
Many independent schools have always had different term times to local
authority schools. These have either been historical or reflect that
some still have saturday school time. My old school used to have an
8-week summer holiday, 3 weeks at Easter, and 2 at Xmas to reflect the
fact that the school week was 6-days.
>
> > For Medway the dates are:
> > Start Term 1 = 01-Sep-05
> > Start Holiday 1 = 24-Oct-05
> > Start Term 2= 31-Oct-05
> > Start Holiday 2 = 19-Dec-05
> > Start term 3 = 03-Jan-06
> > Start hoilday 3 = 13-Feb-06
> > Start term 4 = 20-Feb-06
> > Start holiday 4=03-Apr-06
> > Start term 5= 19-Apr-06
> > Start holiday 5= 29-May-06
> > Start term 6= 05-Jun-06
> > Start holiday 6 = 26-Jul-06
> >
> > Most of the other triallists have similar dates.
> >
>
> Start term on a Thursday for 7 weeks and 2 days, then 1 week off, 7 weeks at
> school, 2 weeks and 1 day off, 5 weeks 4 days at school, 1 week off, 6 weeks
> at school, 2 weeks 2 days off, 5 weeks 3 days at school, 1 week off, 7 weeks
> 2 days at school then 6 weeks off.
>
> Obviously taking in extra days for when Easter is not at the appropriate
> time (Friday and Monday at least), plus all the training days that teachers
> have.
The reckoning is that in about 2 years out of 10 Easter will likely
fall in the new term time. When it does then GF and EM will still be
public and bank holidays.
INSET days for teachers number 5 in a school year. 2 are normally taken
at the beginning of terms (usually 1 beginning autumn and 1 beginning
summer) another 1 at the end of a term and then the other 2 sometime
during the term, usually monday or a friday.
The new standardised model will generally always have a summer holiday
of 5 weeks and a day (the "day" being August BH).
>
> > There are lots of things in favour of this arrangement. There are lots
> > of good arguments against!
> >
>
> I can see that it balances the lengths of the terms at school - but I
> thought that the whole idea of this scheme was to have a shorter holiday
> where the 6weeks are now - that hasn't changed.
It has. It goes down to 5w + 1d.
> I just hope that allthe
> schools in a given area are having the same dates as it is bad enough now
> with some fininshing a week before others etc.
Yes. For the thing to really work it will need geographic groups of
LEAs to work to a common schedule.
What effect will it have on "holiday-time scouting" such a the
traditional camp? Probably very little actually.
Many groups already are finding it hard to fit in a summer week long
camp. Going from 6 weeks to 5 isn't going to change that much. With any
new system you will still have potential clashes with family holidays.
Easter and whit holidays now don't really change that much. There's
still a week at the beginning of june end of may like now.
The potential advantage is the longer break in october (to counter the
shorter summer). Fewer people travel on holiday at this time of the
year (unless they're going far) and there isn't any clashes with
examinations etc.
Don't let us forget that one of the other reasons why summer camp
opportunities are reducing in numbers is the lack of leader
availability. Leaders need holidays as well!
If you have a 2-week family holiday in the summer organised and then
you slap on another week that's 15-days out of an annual entitlement of
25 or maybe even only 20-25. For many leaders you could be effectively
saying no to a 2-week summer holiday with the family! That will go down
well with 'er or 'im indoors. Not! Do we expect leaders to support
scouting or do we expect them to sacrifice themselves for scouting. Not
everyone thinks of summer camp as a holiday!
SW
chalky
Paul Harris wrote:
> In message <1121863235.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> chalky <gslc...@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>
> >Paul Harris wrote:
> >> In message <tZeDe.7078$yP3....@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Stephen
> >> Rainsbury <ste...@rainsbury.net> writes
> >> >
> >> >They did an opinion survey the school holidays, the majority wanted to keep
> >> >things the same as now, with 6.5 weeks holiday, but we were over ruled as
> >> >somehow it saves money, I have no idea how, but you can bet your bottom
> >> >dollar that the last people to benefit will be the actual school kids.
> >> >
> >> Can I suggest that they save money by reducing holidays during the warm
> >> summer period giving more holidays during the cooler parts of the year
> >> equals a saving on heating bills. Unless of course anyone else has a
> >> better theory.
> >
> >Actually the proposals do not centre on financial reasons. The school
> >year will still be 190 days for pupils and 195 for staff.
> >
> I was just addressing Stephen's point that it he was told it saves money
> by putting forward a possible scenario in which it could be seen to save
> some money by not being open as much during the colder part of the year.
Yes I agree you were.
> I didn't doubt that there were lots of other reasons but thanks for
> giving us some insight into what was behind the decision to try it.
That's ok.
>
> >The reasons for the change to a 6-term year are variously:
> >1. Consistency across the country. (LEAs and schools currently set
> >dates for holidays, terms, etc, and these can differ widely.)
>
> Of course with some doing this and some not they have achieved totally
> the opposite.
Yes this will only be achieved when its spread across a region or the
country. At the moment its only a trial and you wwill notice that there
are geographic groups of LEAs.
>
> >2. Terms of uneven length disrupt curriculum planning and delivery,
> >particularly when the spring and summer terms are decided by the date
> >of Easter.
>
> I never could fathom how Christmas was always the same date each year
> and Easter moved around.
Yes its "luney" isn't it!
>
> >3. Parents tend to take their kids out of school in term time when
> >there are increasingly varied holiday patterns.
>
> I can see it might help with that.
>
> >4. The most radical changes are to extend the october break. Surveys
> >show that pupil and teacher sickness and exclusions rise in an extended
> >autumn term. A longer break in the middle is hoped to relieve the
> >stress that builds up as the term drags on towards christmas.
>
> It's a real shame the rest of us don't get similar chances :-)
Aren't we lucky! :-)
SW
> --
> Paul Harris
Neil Williams
wrote:
> In these cases there
>were too many times when the children were not available together and making
>child care arrangements a nightmare.
I have never quite understood why school holiday dates are not set
nationally. There seems no logical reason why parents with children
in different schools should be inconvenienced by their arbitrary
choice of different dates.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Graham Drabble
news:MAbDe.7540$Fx3....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net:
Be nice to see you. Not sure what we're doing in the evenings as that's
when some of the activities are. Drop me an email with your name in it
(so I can tell other leaders to expect you) and I'll give you by mobile
number so you can check we're on site.
chalky
Neil Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:32:40 +0100, "Dave" <dave.ba...@virgin.net>
> wrote:
>
> > In these cases there
> >were too many times when the children were not available together and making
> >child care arrangements a nightmare.
>
> I have never quite understood why school holiday dates are not set
> nationally. There seems no logical reason why parents with children
> in different schools should be inconvenienced by their arbitrary
> choice of different dates.
Because various Education Acts give responsibility for the delivery of
education in the maintained sector to local authorities (County
Councils and Metropolitan and Unitary Authorities). In the voluntary
aided sector it lies with the governing body, but almost all of these
subscribe to services provided by the LEA. It is thus the local
authority that sets term dates and holidays, however, this must be done
within a certain framework such that schools must normally be open for
pupils for 190 days, and five days must be allowed for INSET days.
As Education is a "local" repsonsibility you find that "local factors"
influence things such as term dates and holidays.
The dates are not arbitrary but take account of national policies,
religious dates, and dates of local events and customs.
Within any one LEA dates rarely vary by more than a day or two and the
only really noticeable variance is that when religious festivals
impinge on dates for voluntary aided schools.
Across the country there is rarely more than a weeks variance between
LEAs. Usually it's a few days earlier or later start of term with a few
days later or earlier finish. Just occasionally you can find the half
term week in the spring term differing by a week between LEAs. In the
autumn term half term is nearly always the last full week in october
(the time when the clocks change) and in the summer its nearly always
the whit week including the spring BH.
Overall the only really noticeable difference in dates is around Easter
and in the spring term leading up to easter.
Scotland of course has a quite different schedule with summer term end
dates and autumn term start dates shifted quite significantly earlier.
The independent sector sets its own dates but these nowadays roughly
follow those in the maintained sector except where these schools have a
6-day week (include saturday school)
CTC's (City Technology Colleges) are not in the maintained sector and
many of these adopt a 5-term year which they are allowed to do within
the terms of the relevant education act.
The trial of a 6-term year by some LEAs for schools in the maintained
sector is allowed within the existing education acts because all it is
simply doing is splitting each current term in half (which already
happens because each term is made up of two half terms) and setting
dates for the start and end of each of these 6 half terms which they
now call terms.
Why couldn't the maintained sector trial 5-term years (copying the
CTCs)? Because to do so would probably require a change in the
education act to allow them to do so as it would significantly change
the nature of an essentially 3-term/6 half-term year as the various
acts define.
So now you know!
SW
Shaun Joynson
>
> Due to the local Nazis in the education department next tear our schools
> will be on a six term year and our kids will only get 5 weeks off in the
> summer. To make things worse they are now aggressively perusing the policy
> of refusing kids time off school during term time to go on holiday and
> fining the parents.
>
> This makes arranging dates damn awkward
Sorry about that Steven, but as one of the local 'nazi's' who works as a
teacher, I suppose we thought, that education took precedence over
Scouting!
On a more serious note to all Scouters, be afraid, be very afraid when
the six term year comes in, because it is going to change EVERYTHING.
My own lea WESTMINSTER are adopting it to 2006-07 and I suspect it will
be fairly universal within 5 years, so we will have to re-plan
everything to cater for it.
Just a thought.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Martin Whelan
> everything to cater for it.
>
> Just a thought.
>
>
I would hold fire on this, because there are a number of leas that are
actively considering a return to the 3 term system. Various people that
I know are actively involved in education, and did not see the point of
having two weeks in October and February but less in the summer.
Martin
Paul Harris
Whelan <martin...@free-stater.gmail.com> writes
>
>I would hold fire on this, because there are a number of leas that are
>actively considering a return to the 3 term system. Various people that
>I know are actively involved in education, and did not see the point of
>having two weeks in October and February but less in the summer.
>
anyone but this appears to be being decided on the wrong criteria. It
definitely sounds like the Teachers preferences for their own holidays
rather than what suits the Children, the Children's education or the
Children's Parents.
--
Paul Harris
Chris
news:dbjdgk$dor$2...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> surprise there. If most parents are like many I know with full time jobs
> they can have to select their holiday time as much as a year in advance,
> and
> sometimes are lucky to get what they want.
>
> Best you ask when their holidays are and book your camp to suit the
> majority, surely.
We always go the first week of the school holidays, and make sure parents /
boys know that. Every year there are several of the new boys that miss camp
due to family holiday - holidays always seem to be arranged at other times
in the following years ;o) We do publish the summer camp dates (and other
major activities) a year in advance (I can tell you *when* our 2006 camp
is - not sure *where* yet though ;) )
Got over 100 kids + leader team going off to the Mike Thurston Site in
Norfolk tomorrow and Saturday for the week (and I've still not even
considered packing. Gah)
--Chris
chalky
Shaun Joynson wrote:
> > sometimes are lucky to get what they want.
> >
> > Due to the local Nazis in the education department next tear our schools
> > will be on a six term year and our kids will only get 5 weeks off in the
> > summer. To make things worse they are now aggressively perusing the policy
> > of refusing kids time off school during term time to go on holiday and
> > fining the parents.
> >
> > This makes arranging dates damn awkward
>
> Sorry about that Steven, but as one of the local 'nazi's' who works as a
> teacher, I suppose we thought, that education took precedence over
> Scouting!
>
> On a more serious note to all Scouters, be afraid, be very afraid when
> the six term year comes in, because it is going to change EVERYTHING.
Ok about this "serious note" that you believe we may need to be afraid
of, what do you consider to be the likely serious impacts on scouting
of such a change?
What sort of things encompass "everything"?
>
> My own lea WESTMINSTER are adopting it to 2006-07 and I suspect it will
> be fairly universal within 5 years, so we will have to re-plan
> everything to cater for it.
What sort of things do you believe will need re-planning?
>
> Just a thought.
Please elaborate!
>
Consider your typical group/section delivering scouting. On average the
majoirty deliver scouting once per week for 36-38 weeks over the year.
(190 school days = 38 weeks.) Some may extend up to 40-42, but there
are very few that go much beyond 45 weeks. To this you can add on 6-8
weekend/day at weekend activities on average spread over the year and I
suggest in 30-40% of cases a week of activities/camp.
Yes I know some of you are very keen and will be doing 2/3 things each
week in your "60-week year", as well as being away every other weekend
and having 2/3 week long camps! But that's the exception not the
average!!
The proposals for changing school term schedules do NOT encompass
changes to the overall number of school days. They will remain fixed at
190! They merely look to "shift" timings/schedules.
The biggest change will be on people with children of school age first!
The most radical changes are:
1. Extending the current autumn half term break to 2 weeks.
What will be the likely impact on scouting of this change?
a. Those sections that take a week break now may probably extend this
to two. Hardly a big change?
b. Opens up the possibility of having a week long activity at this time
of the year? Opens up a middle (possibly even long) weekend for
activities which doesn't have the "problems" of a late start on a
Friday (after school) and rushing back on the sunday (for school on the
monday)?
c. Do we really think that a 2-week break here is going to be another
opportunity for families to get away abroad? Yes possibly! But are they
going to do this and then go away likewise at Xmas and Easter and in
the summer as well? The proposals won't change the fact that most
people still only get 20-25 annual leave per year on average!
2. Fixing the Easter break
What will be the likely impact on scouting of this change?
a. Those sections that take a 2/3 week break now may probably still
take the same break but just at a different time. Hardly a big change?
b. The break will come standardised wholly within april which on
average has better weather and lighter evenings than when it comes at
the end of march (but ok not when it comes later in april!) Seems to me
that it may actually help planning!
c. When easter falls late in april you can end up with the situation of
one holiday period being followed quickly by another long weekend (May
Day BH) within a week or two and that being followed by yet another
week holiday a few weeks later. The opportunities for scouting
activities (easter hols, May Day BH weekend, Spring BH week and current
half-term) all come upon us quickly one after the other. Taking
advantage of these all at once is great but it's also a lot of work in
a very short time span. Obviously you can look at this from different
view points but on the whole having the easter break fixed I think will
help with planning.
3. Reducing the summer break from current 6-7 weeks to 5 weeks + a day
What will be the likely impact on scouting of this change?
a. Ok so sections scouting in term-time only have another week to fill.
Hardly a big change?
b. Is it going to have a major change on summer camp season? Are most
kids so busy during the current 6-7 weeks that if we reduce it to 5 + a
day they will have to drop sometinhg - that something being
scouting/camp?
c. Do a large proportion of the working population take more than 2
weeks holiday during this period now? Will they take more if the
proposals are adopted? Yes flexi-months off, more part-time work, more
flexible working hours are increasing but still relatively small.
Yes there will be an impact! But I hardly think it will be
earth-shattering. It's largely tinkering at the edges in my view and
scouting has always been adaptable.
So come on, let's hear what are these "everything" impacts!
SW
poison.dwarf
care, as many parents who work find it helps the burden a little bit. It
won't affect our week long camps during summer whatever term system is being
used, as I accept that some kids can't come due to whatever reason.
Can I say that around here if two parents are working it isn't because they
are greedy or after too much financially, it is because the wages are so low
here that anyone who wants to support their family needs every penny to do
it!
Pete
> On a more serious note to all Scouters, be afraid, be very afraid when
> the six term year comes in, because it is going to change EVERYTHING.
Please give more detail! Being in Kent (one of those goiing to 6 terms)
I've seen our local term dates. At a glance I really can't see what the
fuss is about. The only change is that half terms are now called terms and
that the break between Spring and Summer terms will be fixed, not dependant
on Easter. Next years summer hols dates the same as this (give or take the
odd day or so).
Pete
--
Peter Maley
SL, 3rd Whitstable
ESL, Tombstones ESU
Stephen Rainsbury
> I would say that unless your group has a fixed tradition of Camp going
> back a relatively long way you will find it hard to compete.
Agreed
> Alternatives have to be looked at. Whit/half-term at the end of May is
> becoming more popular, and will be even more so now that groups have
> only up to 14 year olds and there isn't the problem of GCSE's. And of
> course there's Easter.
I agree there are these alternatives, but you are taking a much bigger
gamble with the weather. I can accept a wet weekend in October as an
activity but I would definatly prefer good weather for the main camp.
> It's also less "competitive" towards the end of
> the summer holidays in late August but there you have the problem of
> framilies meeting the cost of Camp especially if they've just spent a
> few weeks abroad.
The last week of the shool hols include the bank holiday, so travel is
more of a pain.
> I know of some troops who have Camp in the October
> half-term.
We do that but its not the main camp
> > Due to the local Nazis in the education department next tear our schools
> > will be on a six term year and our kids will only get 5 weeks off in the
> > summer.
>
> A friend who is a scouter and who works in the LEA won't like you
> calling him a NaZI! :-)
My wife works there too I have seen the boots.
> 20 LEA's are piloting a 6-term year starting next school year.
Medway don't seem to be tretaing it as a pilot. There was a vote form
to all parents and it was sold as an improvemnt, in fcat it seems to
have been a fait accomplis.
> For Medway the dates are:
Thanks. I bitched and they sent me dates for teh next few years, each
one in a different format which didn't give a very professional
impression.
> It was meant to be an exception not a rule,
> however, many now see it as a privilege and a chance to take the
> opportunity of beating the higher holiday prices in the main holidays
> as well as the crowds.
I can see their reasons, teh cottage we wanted for the summer was £180
in jearly July, £350 in August and £145 in the end of september.
> Its a competition now! either compete or change your dates.
The kids might choose camp but the parents always get the veto.
We get it both ways because my wife works for teh LEA and can't take
time off during term either, so we will always end up paying more,
which is why we havn't been able to afford a holiday for the past 4
years.
> Some other time obviously! (Or maybe you need more equipment!)
More equipment isn't really an option, it would cost thousands for just
one week in the year, the rest of the time we can share nicely.
> Actually many surveys showed support for a 5 or 6 term year. (CTCs
> already have a 5 term year which is popular).
We never got to see the full results just the conclusion.
> I think these days you have to be a little more imaginative about
> timing Camp and what Camp should actually be.
The imagination is that we have probably lost the best weather unless
we take them abroad.
> Its very difficult to sell to some young people the idea these days
> that a week in a field in "sunny" wales or the lakes is so much better
> than a week in disneyland or on the beach in the med or the canarys or
> elsewhere.
It isn't necessarily better, its differrent, and if we have to move to
half terms its less likely to be "sunny" wales and more likely to be
"wet windy and cold" wales/scotland/kent whatever :-(
> Our culture on holidays is very much strongly focused on a family
> holiday
Agreed, and we are not going to change that.
At the last group exec people were starting to notice that their
holiday options were narrowing and they are going to have to pay more
next year, especially if you want to stay in the UK.
---
SBR
Stephen Rainsbury
> Sorry about that Steven, but as one of the local 'nazi's' who works as a
> teacher, I suppose we thought, that education took precedence over
> Scouting!
If it were the teachers that made the decsions I could accept it but it
wasn't.
The council made all the decsions on this and simply informed the
people who had to make it work.
I have all respect for teachers and I am currently considering an
option to become a maths teacher next year. However the more I see of
LEAs and school governers the more I become dismayed at breathtaking
lack of consideration for the actual people at the coal face who teach
our children.
I can't imagine my senior management being a bunch of part time
amateurs.
> On a more serious note to all Scouters, be afraid, be very afraid when
> the six term year comes in, because it is going to change EVERYTHING.
I couldn't agree with you more, we are now living this situation and
nobody I have spoken to has a good word to say about it.
> My own lea WESTMINSTER are adopting it to 2006-07 and I suspect it will
> be fairly universal within 5 years, so we will have to re-plan
> everything to cater for it.
>
> Just a thought.
And a valid one too.
---
SBR
Stephen Rainsbury
> Shaun Joynson (s_jo...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
> Please give more detail! Being in Kent (one of those goiing to 6 terms)
> I've seen our local term dates. At a glance I really can't see what the
> fuss is about. The only change is that half terms are now called terms and
> that the break between Spring and Summer terms will be fixed, not dependant
> on Easter. Next years summer hols dates the same as this (give or take the
> odd day or so).
Medway (in Kent) isn't in Kent anymore for the purposes of education.
I can scan in a copy of our daqtes which quite nicely show the overlap
with yours and when they are different.
No idea why they made us a "unitary council" when they did an opionion
poll 80% of people were against it.
Another case of the lunatics running the assylum.
Now between us we have two IT centers, two eduation depatments, two of
every director, two of absolutly everying and this saves us money how?
---
SBR
Pete
> Medway (in Kent) isn't in Kent anymore for the purposes of education.
>
> I can scan in a copy of our daqtes which quite nicely show the overlap
> with yours and when they are different.
>
> No idea why they made us a "unitary council" when they did an opionion
> poll 80% of people were against it.
>
> Another case of the lunatics running the assylum.
>
> Now between us we have two IT centers, two eduation depatments, two of
> every director, two of absolutly everying and this saves us money how?
Its crazy, it really is. A bit like the South East England Regional
Assembly ... the things which non-one except the government wanted (and
people voted against where they were given the chance), so now they are
unelected and most likely full of 'yes' men/women. <ducks!>
Dr John Stockton
Jul 2005 16:23:15, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting, Paul Harris
<nos...@nospam.demon.co.uk> posted :
>I never could fathom how Christmas was always the same date each year
>and Easter moved around.
They celebrate different events.
Birthdays, whether or not known accurately, are normally celebrated on
the same date in each year (or on an adjacent weekend).
Easter is fixed by a modified Passover algorithm; Passover (Pesach)
begins at the same date in every Hebrew year, 15th Nisan.
The Hebrew year has either 12 or 13 months, each of 29 or 30 days, per
year; they use lunar months in a solar year, and New Moon and new month
more-or-less coincide.
Christmas is always 7 days before the start of the next year; 15th Nisan
is always 163 days before the start of the next year.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/holidays.htm>
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/holydays.htm>
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/heb-date.htm>
# # #
If/when the dates of the new-style terms are fixed by a permanent
*algorithm* for all participating locations, I'd be pleased to hear
authoritative details, and to code for them on the pages above.
The *sensible* method would be to do it by ISO 8601 week numbers, such
as can be found in diaries. Since there are either 52 or 53 weeks in a
year, one holiday or one term may need to vary in length by one week
from year to year.
Fixed Easter, as authorised for implementation by the Act of 1928, is
the day after the 2nd Saturday of April (*not* a fixed Week Number); the
2006 dates quoted elsewhere in this thread are compatible with that.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
PAS EXE etc : <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see 00index.htm
Dates - miscdate.htm moredate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.
Martin Whelan
The new system is not linked by the Teaching Unions, or more correctly
was not liked by the teaching. I liked the idea of national consistency,
but the result of piecemeal implementation is even more variation in the
system.
The general logic appeared to favour the old system but fixing the terms
so they were of reasonably equal length. This would mean bar the
Easter Act ever being passed, it would fall outside of holidays although
yp would continue to have GF and EM off.
The current system is based around the harvest system and whilst it
should be reviewed, 5 terms is not necessarily thebest.
Martin Whelan
>
> We always go the first week of the school holidays, and make sure
> parents / boys know that. Every year there are several of the new boys
> that miss camp due to family holiday - holidays always seem to be
> arranged at other times in the following years ;o) We do publish the
> summer camp dates (and other major activities) a year in advance (I can
> tell you *when* our 2006 camp is - not sure *where* yet though ;) )
>
> Got over 100 kids + leader team going off to the Mike Thurston Site in
> Norfolk tomorrow and Saturday for the week (and I've still not even
> considered packing. Gah)
>
> --Chris
We always used to go for the last week of the holidays. As it was
starting to get cooler but still warm enough for a good camp. The vast
majority of familes around had been on holiday. At worst some of my
friends got delivered by parents a couple of days into the camp.
Martin
Martin Whelan
> Its crazy, it really is. A bit like the South East England Regional
> Assembly ... the things which non-one except the government wanted (and
> people voted against where they were given the chance), so now they are
> unelected and most likely full of 'yes' men/women. <ducks!>
>
The Regional Assemblies are merely a continuation of something which
previously existed under another guise, the local government
association. The LGA/RAs are talking shops, think of them like a trade
union for local government in a collective body.
The next evolution of Regional Assemblies are to give them limited
Executive Powers, combined with a unitarisation of local government
layers below the region. Basically that would create a layer btw county
and district level. Some of the proposals that I have read have would
mean returning to a lot of the pre 1974 counties.
Following the failitre of the NE referendum last November, there will be
no further referendum in the NE until 2011 at the earliest and that is
conditional on a Labour or Liberal government controlling Westminister
government. With the exception of the NE the only other regions likely
to vote for regional government under the right circumstances are NW and
Yorkshire/Humber. There is also periodically talk of reorganising the
regions, as there are a few anomalies.
Martin
Martin Whelan
> Fixed Easter, as authorised for implementation by the Act of 1928, is
> the day after the 2nd Saturday of April (*not* a fixed Week Number); the
> 2006 dates quoted elsewhere in this thread are compatible with that.
>
The Easter Act is conditional on the agreement of the World Council of
Churches and IIRC has never actually been discussed as agreement is
impossible.
martin
Martin Whelan
>
>
> Medway (in Kent) isn't in Kent anymore for the purposes of education.
>
> I can scan in a copy of our daqtes which quite nicely show the overlap
> with yours and when they are different.
>
> No idea why they made us a "unitary council" when they did an opionion
> poll 80% of people were against it.
>
> Another case of the lunatics running the assylum.
>
> Now between us we have two IT centers, two eduation depatments, two of
> every director, two of absolutly everying and this saves us money how?
>
> ---
> SBR
The idea in the early 1990s was originally for the whole country to be
converted to unitary government. Then the politicians got involved and
it got all messy.
Martin
>
Martin Whelan
>
> Consider your typical group/section delivering scouting. On average the
> majoirty deliver scouting once per week for 36-38 weeks over the year.
> (190 school days = 38 weeks.) Some may extend up to 40-42, but there
> are very few that go much beyond 45 weeks. To this you can add on 6-8
> weekend/day at weekend activities on average spread over the year and I
> suggest in 30-40% of cases a week of activities/camp.
>
> Yes I know some of you are very keen and will be doing 2/3 things each
> week in your "60-week year", as well as being away every other weekend
> and having 2/3 week long camps! But that's the exception not the
> average!!
>
> The proposals for changing school term schedules do NOT encompass
> changes to the overall number of school days. They will remain fixed at
> 190! They merely look to "shift" timings/schedules.
>
> The biggest change will be on people with children of school age first!
Will it actually a big change other than shifting times around a bit.
>
> 1. Extending the current autumn half term break to 2 weeks.
This has been tried in quite a few places but is invariably dropped as
it is highly unpopular with teachers, and parents.
>
I would suggest proposals for Extended hours schools potentially have a
much greater effect on sections week by week.
Steve Smith
news:dbjb3v$2f41$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch...
> I will, but not with my own Troop unfortunately.
>
> Despite including the dates for Summer Camp on every termly programme
> since last September, out of a Troop of 26 I can't get enough to make it
> worthwhile (ie, only 2 (yes, two) for the whole ten days, and a couple of
> others for just part of it).
I've had the same problem, though I've been lucky in the end to get 6 out of
10. Probably 4 leaders.
> Considering I had 14 on camp at the same time of year last year, I am more
> than a little disappointed (well and truly hacked off would be a better
> term for it). The problem for the majority is family holidays clashing.
> Despite the fact they've known the date since last year.
Yes, that really pisses me off.
> So, bugger it, I'm off to the lakes with another Troop up the road, along
> with around 20 lads - including one of mine that was going to go on our
> camp, and doesn't want to miss out (and why should he?).
Quite right.
> Now, I need to carefully consider the wording of the letter that's going
> to go around the Troop's parents after the summer break... any suggestions
> would be welcome...
Sadly, I don't think it will help. If you're that low on their list of
priorities, they won't be bothered if they've pissed you off. After all,
you are just there to provide a cheap babysitting service, it's up to them
to take it of leave it. :-(
Steve.
Neil Williams
wrote:
>Because various Education Acts give responsibility for the delivery of
>education in the maintained sector to local authorities (County
>Councils and Metropolitan and Unitary Authorities).
[snip]
>So now you know!
A very interesting explanation, thanks - though it doesn't explain why
the local authorities should not co-operate to keep their dates the
same, and why the Government should not recommend this.
It might be *easier* not to, but it would be better if they did.
Graham Drabble
news:1121878790.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> Yes this will only be achieved when its spread across a region or
> the country. At the moment its only a trial and you wwill notice
> that there are geographic groups of LEAs.
Guess who lives right on the edge. We are West Sussex who are (I think)
staying with 3 terms next year. The next village along (same District) is
in East Sussex who are on 6 terms. I pity whoever gets to work out dates
for District events next year.
Paul Harris
Whelan <martin...@free-stater.gmail.com> writes
>
holidays although there are some who elect for the second or last. If
you are involved with a Scout Camp site in anyway you soon discover that
the first week of the holidays is the busiest time each year.
--
Paul Harris
Paul Harris
Whelan <martin...@free-stater.gmail.com> writes
>
will to even discuss it.
--
Paul Harris
Stephen Rainsbury
celebrate Easter?
My wife's church isn't full at that time, which for an estate of
several thousand people suggests that its a very small percentage.
Perhaps we could look at reviewingthe whole public holiday
arrnagements, I would far prefer to have a 4 day weekend 4 times a year
rather than what we have now.
They could be flexed a few days either way but Christmas and boxing day
could stay. Easter moved to end of March, the two may holidays moved to
end of June, and August B/H and New Years day moved to end of
September.
---
SBR
Dave
"Stephen Rainsbury" <ste...@rainsbury.net> wrote in message
news:1122031179.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
SNIP
> Perhaps we could look at reviewingthe whole public holiday
> arrnagements, I would far prefer to have a 4 day weekend 4 times a year
> rather than what we have now.
>
> They could be flexed a few days either way but Christmas and boxing day
> could stay. Easter moved to end of March, the two may holidays moved to
> end of June, and August B/H and New Years day moved to end of
> September.
>
> ---
> SBR
>
Remember though that some public holidays are are England only some the
whole and some Worldwide.
We may have problems insisting that Easter is moved to the rest of the world
and even more difficult that New Years day is in September.
DaveB
West Yorks
Paul Harris
<dave.ba...@virgin.net> writes
>
>"Stephen Rainsbury" <ste...@rainsbury.net> wrote in message
>news:1122031179.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> They could be flexed a few days either way but Christmas and boxing day
>> could stay. Easter moved to end of March, the two may holidays moved to
>> end of June, and August B/H and New Years day moved to end of
>> September.
>
>Remember though that some public holidays are are England only some the
>whole and some Worldwide.
>
Many other European Countries have more public holidays than we do and
there are many variations on dates and reasons for the holidays. We
should be aware that not everyone celebrates the Christian holidays as
some have totally different religious festivals.
>We may have problems insisting that Easter is moved to the rest of the world
>and even more difficult that New Years day is in September.
>
We would be in no position to fix Easter or move it however it would
seem rationale that it should be at the same time each year based on the
calendar that most of us use these days. Perhaps this is one issue
where some in the Church do need to move with the times.
As for New Year being in September, if we are making the case for Easter
to be based on the standard calendar we can hardly also make the case
for the New Year to at any other time than it is at present.
--
Paul Harris
Martin Whelan
It was occasionally a problem with activities as some sites had
effectively stood down by even mid/late August and activities were
harder to procure.
Martin
Martin Whelan
IMHO it is impossible as whilst there is a willingness to agree, there
is no will to implement!
Martin
Martin Whelan
> This whole issue begs the question of how many people actually
> celebrate Easter?
I dont but its a good opportunity for a geographically dispersed family
to get together for a long weekend.
Martin Whelan
Easter is not on the same day in all varieties of the christian church,
in the same way that all christian churches don't celebrate christmas on
the same day! There is nothing to say that the Church of England could
not say Easter Day would be X, and rats to the rest of the churches.
Paul Harris
>Paul Harris wrote:
>
>> In message <dbp11c$2h3$1...@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
>>Martin Whelan <martin...@free-stater.gmail.com> writes
>>>
>>>of Churches and IIRC has never actually been discussed as agreement
>>>is impossible.
>>>
>> It is not impossible although it may be rather unlikely if there is
>>no will to even discuss it.
>
>IMHO it is impossible as whilst there is a willingness to agree, there
>is no will to implement!
>
will was found it would be possible, therefore just that at present it
is rather unlikely. Not that what we think makes a jot of difference
either way .
--
Paul Harris
Dr John Stockton
Jul 2005 17:29:55, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting, Paul Harris
<nos...@nospam.demon.co.uk> posted :
>
>As for New Year being in September, if we are making the case for Easter
>to be based on the standard calendar we can hardly also make the case
>for the New Year to at any other time than it is at present.
New Year does need to be at the beginning of the year.
Since the Hebrews can manage with Leap Months, we should be able to have
years of 364 or 371 days, starting each year on the nearest Monday to
its present start - see the week numbers in a diary.
Stephen Rainsbury
news:VJacncIuEdA...@karoo.co.uk...
>
> Remember though that some public holidays are are England only some the
> whole and some Worldwide.
Agreed, its differrent now and probably always will be but ours could be
better.
> We may have problems insisting that Easter is moved to the rest of the
world
> and even more difficult that New Years day is in September.
I wasn't actually suggesting we move NY day, just the day off work :-)
As for Easter, to most people now its just a long weekend with chocolate so
why not move that too?
---
SBR
Stephen Rainsbury
news:dbra3v$hoc$3...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
But if we re-arrange the existing days we might have more long weekends and
more chances for them to get together.
---
SIR
Martin Whelan
Martin
Tim Jones
We could always do the ultimate sensible thing, get rid of mass public
holidays and replace them with extra days holiday to be booked as
annual holiday allowance is. Not only would this remove the senseless
travel chaos caused by a sunny bank holiday weekend, but it would
remove the anomaly whereby half the coutry skive off whilst expecting
the leisure and catering industries and even superstore staff to
pander to their desire to spend. It would also level the playing
foeld for the more essential jobs such as medicine, the police, fire
brigades, farmers etc etc.
regards
Tim Jones
Stephen Rainsbury
Tim Jones wrote:
> We could always do the ultimate sensible thing, get rid of mass public
> holidays and replace them with extra days holiday to be booked as
> annual holiday allowance is.
Thats the best one yet an gives me the perfect excuse to miss those
tedious family get togethers with aged relatives who stil havn't got to
grips with the fact that we don't have an empire anymore.
---
SBR
Dave
"Tim Jones" <wilde...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:42e3e256...@news.btinternet.com...
SNIP
> We could always do the ultimate sensible thing, get rid of mass public
> holidays and replace them with extra days holiday to be booked as
> annual holiday allowance is. Not only would this remove the senseless
> travel chaos caused by a sunny bank holiday weekend, but it would
> remove the anomaly whereby half the coutry skive off whilst expecting
> the leisure and catering industries and even superstore staff to
> pander to their desire to spend. It would also level the playing
> foeld for the more essential jobs such as medicine, the police, fire
> brigades, farmers etc etc.
>
> regards
>
> Tim Jones
In an ideal world you may be right - but in the world we live in with some
employers that are around then it is definitely not a good move.
There are some people who get absolute minimum holidays and they have to be
taken at times agreed with the employer (not at busy times for the type of
business).
At least with public holidays they have a right to them off and if you are
in some jobs you get enhanced pay or at least a day off in leui - hopefully
at the employees convenience rather than the 3rd week in February!!
DaveB
West Yorks
Ewan Scott
"Dave" <dave.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Fb2Fe.28658$Pf3....@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Saturdays or Public Holidays, but if they don't they do pay a heavy price.
My wife couldn't get seven days she was due last year and they were held
over to this year. She is now having to book holidays for next year and she
is still seven days short on this year's holidays. If businesses such as the
Banks were not compelled to give public holidays then they would do all they
could to ensure that no-one got that time they were due. They have all cut
back on staffing to the bare essentials because they can't afford the luxury
of surplus staff, yet the greedy siods make millions every year for people
who sit on their fat backsides doing nothing. Many times my wife has had to
go into work when she was ill because the bank is so short staffed that if
she didn't go in they would only have one out of foive desks open.
Many of us have forgotten the lessons of history. Before Bank Holidays the
mill and factory owners worked everyone six days a week for as long as they
could and then co-erced them to go to church and spend their wages in the
factory shops. Give big business the chance and they will start heading back
to those good old days. Maggie smashed the unions and yes the economy has
generally been better since, but at what cost to society? Take away bank
holidays and the imbalance tips even more in favour of big business.
Altogether now, anyone remember the words to "The Red flag......" :-)
Ewan Scott
Stephen Rainsbury
> Altogether now, anyone remember the words to "The Red flag......" :-)
>
The people's flag is deepest red
It shrouded oft our martyred dead
And 'ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their hearts' blood dyed to every fold
.. Oh I'll get me coat (again)
---
SBR
chris.5th
(same tune)
the working class can kiss my arse
I've got the foreman's job at last.
Tim Jones
<dave.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Tim Jones" <wilde...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>news:42e3e256...@news.btinternet.com...
>SNIP
>> We could always do the ultimate sensible thing, get rid of mass public
>> holidays and replace them with extra days holiday to be booked as
>> annual holiday allowance is. Not only would this remove the senseless
>> travel chaos caused by a sunny bank holiday weekend, but it would
>> remove the anomaly whereby half the coutry skive off whilst expecting
>> the leisure and catering industries and even superstore staff to
>> pander to their desire to spend. It would also level the playing
>> foeld for the more essential jobs such as medicine, the police, fire
>> brigades, farmers etc etc.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Tim Jones
>
>In an ideal world you may be right - but in the world we live in with some
>employers that are around then it is definitely not a good move.
>
>There are some people who get absolute minimum holidays and they have to be
>taken at times agreed with the employer (not at busy times for the type of
>business).
Fairly standard common sense in jobs with peak seasonal labour
demands. Its no good employing people if they expect to swan off on
holiday when they are most needed. There are 2 sides to
employer/employee relations and they both have to be taken into
account.
>At least with public holidays they have a right to them off and if you are
>in some jobs you get enhanced pay or at least a day off in leui - hopefully
>at the employees convenience rather than the 3rd week in February!!
So what about the convenience of your employer, your fellow staff and
your customers? Holiday is holiday whenever it is taken. What is
wrong with the 3rd week in February?
regards
Tim Jones
Stephen Rainsbury
> So what about the convenience of your employer, your fellow staff and
> your customers? Holiday is holiday whenever it is taken. What is
> wrong with the 3rd week in February?
Most places have arrangements as to who can take time off and when, my form
leave it up to me and unless its going to leave us too short to service all
the calls then I will always give time off. In the last two years I have
only once had to ask somebody to take an alternative day, and he was fine
about it.
Other managers take a far stricter attitude with rules such as no more than
2 of a team of 10 people off at the same time, one even gives preference to
people with kids!!
The only restriction I get is that I can't be off at the same time as my
deputy, unless its a domestic emergency.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
Martin Whelan
>
> Most places have arrangements as to who can take time off and when, my form
> leave it up to me and unless its going to leave us too short to service all
> the calls then I will always give time off. In the last two years I have
> only once had to ask somebody to take an alternative day, and he was fine
> about it.
I have huge swathes of the year where effectively I cant take leave more
than a day or two, because of the dates of the committees that i
support. Effectively it means most of December/January, late
March/April, June and July, Late September and all of October are are a
no no for leave.
John McMahon
>
> >
> > Most places have arrangements as to who can take time off and when, my
form
> > leave it up to me and unless its going to leave us too short to service
all
> > the calls then I will always give time off. In the last two years I
have
> > only once had to ask somebody to take an alternative day, and he was
fine
> > about it.
>
> I have huge swathes of the year where effectively I cant take leave more
> than a day or two, because of the dates of the committees that i
> support. Effectively it means most of December/January, late
> March/April, June and July, Late September and all of October are are a
> no no for leave.
>
Then your company needs to review. There is no such thing as an
irreplaceable employee. What happens if you find another job / get sick
etc?
Answer is, of course, that someone else will do it. So if there is "someone
else" then share the work load.
If the company is not prepared to do so then they are, at best, an unethical
employer.
Get the work-life balance right with your employer - or get another
employer!
I have always insisted that I do NOT work on Scout night!. In the past 23
years I can count on one hand the number of times I have been unable to get
to Scouts and I've had a number of employers - and positions within those
employments - over that time.
John.
Martin Whelan
>
>
> Then your company needs to review. There is no such thing as an
> irreplaceable employee. What happens if you find another job / get sick
> etc?
>
They are, and for particular rounds I could probably take time off but
it would have to be justified. I do have someone working with me now,
but did not two months. Without dropping myself into, I am looking to
relocate at some point in the medium term to North of England or
Scotland, which for the observant in the latter case will be impossible
with my current employers.
I am still trying to work out with my life, and if top up funding up had
not been introduced I would be going back to university to do that
"unstressful" occupation (note the inverted commas) of teaching.
Possibly once I've paid off my student loan.
Martin
Iain
Take a look at this:
http://www.teach.gov.uk/php/read.php?sectionid=238&articleid=2582
Specifically,
"Are there any financial incentives?
PGCE trainees who are classed as “home” or European Union (EU) have
their fees paid and are eligible to receive a tax-free training bursary
of £6,000, equivalent to £150 a week. (From September 2005 this will
rise to £7,000 for mathematics and science trainees.)"
Iain.
martin...@gmail.com
>
> Take a look at this:
> http://www.teach.gov.uk/php/read.php?sectionid=238&articleid=2582
>
> Specifically,
>
> "Are there any financial incentives?
>
As I have been a PGCE (or more correctly now PGDE) stdudent before i
get deducted 666 x 3 as thats what I already have had, fair enough not
arguing with that. They however dont mention this only applies in
England and Wales, and NI/Scotland dont get this. In the short/medium
term it is likely to be removed from subject which are not in demand,
or go means tested for those subjects.
However from 2006 would also get charged the variable tuition fees,
which basically means everywhere is charging 3000. To offset this all
PGCE students are getting a 1200 grant.
As may student loan is already 12000 and at the current rate will never
pay it off, I dont fancy adding to at a tume when teaching jobs for
NQTs at primary level are scarcer than hens teeth.
Its something that I have put on the back burner, and may be if the
situation changes in 5/10 years time I may jump back in.
Martin