improper acctivitys
giving it out @nojunmail.gov.uk u.a.b.b.
the uk but i thought that scouting was all along the same lines ..this looks
as if its a all boy group with mixed m/f leaders..looking though the photo
pages there is a lot of improper goings on ..links go to one of the photos
( one on each link )
http://lesani.fotoweb.cz/fotky/200207_tabor/05%2007%202002%202014.jpg
http://lesani.fotoweb.cz/fotky/historie_1998-2000/T1.jpg
http://lesani.fotoweb.cz/fotky/20031227_dedov/310%20Zimni%20sauna%20ma%20ryc
hlejsi%20prubeh%20nez%20v%20lete.%20Pohodlne%20se%20usadte,%20bude%20padat%2
0snih,%20ackoliv%20nesnezi.%20Pak%20snad%20konecne%20usnete.JPG
this link goes to the main site
MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP ...
????? IVE REPORTED THE SITE TO THE I.W.F
BUT WHO IN THE SCOUTING WORLD WOULD YOU REPORT IT TO ?????
Guy Hirst
"u.a.b.b." <not giving it out @no junmail.gov.uk> wrote in message
news:i0LVc.682$Nt2...@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
Hi just had a look at the website and it says it is LESANI boys hiking troop
(similar to a boy scout troop) but this does not mean it is linked to
scouting in anyway so might not come under anything.
GUY H
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/2004
Chris
Border.
1) If you felt that you needed to report it - then the Karvina City Guide
(link on last page U referred too - in English) has appropriate links. As I
found a reverse link from the Karvina City Authority website back to the
Group - and as some of the photo's are in their archives - nay of the young
people's parents or local community could have taken action by now if deemed
necessary by them.
2) Having travelled throughout Europe (and seen many summer camps in
action) then I would point out to members of this NG that Sauna's are
accepted practise in many countries (often without clothes). 2 of the links
you refer to are typical of camp sauna's. (This type of construction -
branches & Poly or using a tent I have actually seen similar).
3) Although the pictures are NOT appropriate in the context of Scouting
here in the UK - I would not feel that we in the UK could alter Scandanavian
and Central European social cultures so easily. And yes - the pictures
should not IMHO be there - but I see nothing wrong in sauna's as an activity
without knowing the context! - (especially of the boy tied to the tree - I
have seen similar practises on wide games etc. here in the UK!!).
4) In the Czech republic, every youth group is 'inspected' by the State
Education department - as groups taking young people on Summer Camps receive
subsidies for their camps (well up to 2 years ago at least!) and a member of
the local Education Department is supposed to visit the camp to ensure
welfare.
Hope this provides relevant info to readers.
Chris
"u.a.b.b." <not giving it out @no junmail.gov.uk> wrote in message
news:i0LVc.682$Nt2...@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
Bart
(especially of the boy tied to the tree - I
> have seen similar practises on wide games etc. here in the UK!!).
hmm, "similar" I would be worried if I had seen something like that!
The individual is blind folded, and tied up. I would have thought the
revelent authorities, if not the press would take a great interest.
Martin
Chris
Splitting 'hairs' I know!
Chris
"Bart" <Ba...@martinwhelan.stinger.co.ie.uk> wrote in message
news:vD6Wc.1616$_a5....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
walsallwizard
I agree with Chris's first post on this and feel there is an over
reaction.
the lad 'tied' to the tree looks like a quick wriggle and he would be
free and he does not look in distress.
don't think any scouts I've met would get their kit off for a sauna
though the photo could by UK standards be scene as inappropriate
And should we judge when we don't have all the facts this is posted on
a Cities site and I would think be scrutinized by the relevant
authorities
Paul
What you don't know is the context of the photo. It looks like playful
fun to me and not a serious attempt at tying up. I'm not condoning it
(in the way I don't condone initiation ceremonies etc.) but we need to
understand what was going on before commenting.
It is difficult enough to judge something from a UK event if a still
image is viewed out of context, let alone in a completely different
country that has different values.
Don't judge this site by applying British values, many European (and
especially Eastern European and Scandinavian) countries have a far
more liberal attitude to the things seen here.
If anyone is to complain (if there is anything to complain about?), it
should be by the people in that country, not us.
By the group making their activities public in this way, surely they
will be happy that they are not doing anything wrong and their actions
stand the scrutiny of their peers.
Paul.
Bart
> It is difficult enough to judge something from a UK event
I did preface that if I saw something similar in the UK, not judging
something in Czechoslavakia by British standards.
> Don't judge this site by applying British values, many European (and
> especially Eastern European and Scandinavian) countries have a far
> more liberal attitude to the things seen here.
>
> If anyone is to complain (if there is anything to complain about?), it
> should be by the people in that country, not us.
Agreed not suggesting anyone complains.
>
> By the group making their activities public in this way,
risky there is some groups that make activities public, but are far from
appropriate, but not necessarily this group.
Martin
Bart
> The boy is wearing a mask - not a blindfold.
From the picture it appears to go around the tree, and no eye holes.
May be just my eyes but that would be a blindfold to me.
Martin
Pat De Gagne
>Don't judge this site by applying British values, many European (and
>especially Eastern European and Scandinavian) countries have a far
>more liberal attitude to the things seen here.
I agree...
I very much enjoy the Lesani site as they are a very busy and active
group. They may not be Scouts, but many troops could learn a thing or
two from them activity wise.
When I first saw some of the pictures of the boys swimming in the
buff, I have to admit I was quite shocked. You would never see that
here in Canada, and posting pictures about it? Eeeep! Don't even go
there!
Since I happen to work with a Slovakian woman who moved to Canada less
than 15 years ago, I showed her the site and asked her straight if
those pictures were "normal behaviour" in that part of the world, and
well... to make a long answer short, the answer is yeah it's normal
and she didn't miss that opportunity to let me know how uptight and
conservative we were here in Canada... :-)
I guess as a parrallel to this, if I were to apply Canadian or
American Scouting values to the UK, many of you would be shocked to
learn that Scout leaders all over north america freak out when they
learn that many of your camps accept alcohol consumption and some
(including Gilwell) even have pubs! A situation totally normal by
your values, totally scandalous by Canadian or American values.
In the end, I guess we can't compare apples and oranges.
Pat
Graham Holland
>
>I agree...
>
>Since I happen to work with a Slovakian woman who moved to Canada less
>than 15 years ago, I showed her the site and asked her straight if
>those pictures were "normal behaviour" in that part of the world, and
>well... to make a long answer short, the answer is yeah it's normal
>and she didn't miss that opportunity to let me know how uptight and
>conservative we were here in Canada... :-)
Hi Pat,
I agree too. Having had contact in the past with Scouts in Poland,
Russia, and the Czech Republic I can confirm that attitudes are
considerably more liberal than in the UK.
Graham
--
GRAHAM HOLLAND <zabaR...@enterprise.net> Taipei, Taiwan
uk.rec.scouting FAQ http://www.baloo.org.uk/newsgroups/
uk.rec.scouting Archive Group for file sharing
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/UKRSArchive
Paul
> I guess as a parrallel to this, if I were to apply Canadian or
> American Scouting values to the UK, many of you would be shocked to
> learn that Scout leaders all over north america freak out when they
> learn that many of your camps accept alcohol consumption and some
> (including Gilwell) even have pubs! A situation totally normal by
> your values, totally scandalous by Canadian or American values.
Something I was not aware of!
As you say, highlights the difference in values, even between two
nations that many consider "similar".
A very small number of sites in the UK attempt to have an alcohol-free
policy, but all it succeeds in doing is driving the drinking
underground!
Paul.
Bart
>
> Something I was not aware of!
The UK is one of very few countries were drinking is acceptable/allowed
at Scouting/Guiding events. Some impose it strictly, some are lax and
allow a table wine or semething similar.
>
> A very small number of sites in the UK attempt to have an alcohol-free
> policy,
i think you will find a lot of sites have a nominal dry policy. The
crucial bit is whether its enforced. Often you'll also find the site is
dry but has a fully licenced bar, and the policy is to encoaurge you to
use the bar. Also I've found a couple of places where I went as leader
that the warden has come over and said as long as its subtle, and no
disturbance he has no issue.
but all it succeeds in doing is driving the drinking
> underground!
will always happen, even if drinking is allowed because there will
always be those not allowed to drink due to age
Martin
Nick Varney
>A very small number of sites in the UK attempt to have an alcohol-free
>policy, but all it succeeds in doing is driving the drinking
>underground!
The get very upset when they find the cans in the caving simulator.
--
Nick Varney
Neil Williams
>A very small number of sites in the UK attempt to have an alcohol-free
>policy, but all it succeeds in doing is driving the drinking
>underground!
At Pfadfinderdorf Zellhof (highly recommended BTW) near Salzburg in
Austria, where I have both stayed and worked on the service crew,
there is not only a bar - but it is the site "shop" with a seating
area, where leaders can have a beer while the Scouts sit around with
them and drink coke!
Meanwhile, in (very) nearby Germany, a good number of the 100-odd
Scout Associations are very strictly no-alcohol (and some of the
others are anything but!)
Back in the UK, I was chatting recently to a colleague who is involved
in the Boys' and Girls' Brigades, and she was absolutely astonished to
find out that I'd often end my day sitting around the camp fire with a
can in my hand...
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain
Bart
>
> Back in the UK, I was chatting recently to a colleague who is involved
> in the Boys' and Girls' Brigades, and she was absolutely astonished to
> find out that I'd often end my day sitting around the camp fire with a
> can in my hand...
>
I seem to recal an attempt 2/3 years to try and formulate some national
policy, or at least reqquest examples of local policies about alcohol.
Martin
Nick Pedley
In my short time at Infocentre I fielded half a dozen calls about the
alcohol policy and nearly all were surprised to hear we did not actually
have one. I too was rather surprised at learning that.
I note that Essex Scouts have slightly relaxed their rules on spirits by
selling Smirnoff Ice at the recent Jamboree (to adults of course!). Used to
be beer and wine only, the 'alcohol is only allowed between 6pm and 6am'
rule still exists.
Nick
Neil Williams
<nichola...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>In my short time at Infocentre I fielded half a dozen calls about the
>alcohol policy and nearly all were surprised to hear we did not actually
>have one. I too was rather surprised at learning that.
I'm not sure - I'm very much of the opinion that if it ain't broke
don't fix it, and as far as I can tell there isn't a problem, so...
Setting a national policy on a (potentially) sensitive issue such as
alcohol consumption would have the potential to either alienate a lot
of leaders/Networkers if too strict, or to allow the gutter press to
have a field day if too lax.
Paul Harris
<nichola...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>I note that Essex Scouts have slightly relaxed their rules on spirits by
>selling Smirnoff Ice at the recent Jamboree (to adults of course!). Used to
>be beer and wine only, the 'alcohol is only allowed between 6pm and 6am'
>rule still exists.
>
some time and take a very sensible attitude to what is and what isn't
acceptable.
--
Paul Harris
walsallwizard
Williams) wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:17:19 +0100, "Nick Pedley"
><nichola...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In my short time at Infocentre I fielded half a dozen calls about the
>>alcohol policy and nearly all were surprised to hear we did not actually
>>have one. I too was rather surprised at learning that.
>
>I'm not sure - I'm very much of the opinion that if it ain't broke
>don't fix it, and as far as I can tell there isn't a problem, so...
>
>Setting a national policy on a (potentially) sensitive issue such as
>alcohol consumption would have the potential to either alienate a lot
>of leaders/Networkers if too strict, or to allow the gutter press to
>have a field day if too lax.
>
>Neil
I have been involved in both 'dry' and 'wet' camps how can be better
demonstrate to our charges a sensible attitude towards alcohol and is
it not something most scouts will have witnessed their parents doing.
In no way should we advocate underage drinking, if parents allow that
at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
stricter.
I have a feeling that the temperance lot will soon attempt to make all
sites 'dry' which would be a shame.
To end a long first day with a cold beer and your mates what could be
better........ a curry to go with it of course!
Bart
>
> I note that Essex Scouts have slightly relaxed their rules on spirits by
> selling Smirnoff Ice at the recent Jamboree (to adults of course!). Used to
> be beer and wine only, the 'alcohol is only allowed between 6pm and 6am'
> rule still exists.
>
Went to the 2000 event and was very impressed by the attitude towards
alcohol.
The only minor thing would be that from memory everything was served in
proper glasses, at least in the staff bar. Probably to save waste, cos
you bought a glass and kept it for the week, but they were very easy to
break and with long grass/grass being the floor of the bar (in a
marquee) it was often difficult to pick bits out. I tend to think the
approach that an SU I visited was the best, everything goes into a
plastic pint pot even the alco pops. Does create a lot of waste though.
Martin
Bart
> I have been involved in both 'dry' and 'wet' camps how can be better
> demonstrate to our charges a sensible attitude towards alcohol and is
>
it not something most scouts will have witnessed their parents doing.
Careful if you are going down that line of argument. When I first
started as a Cub helper, one of the parents was a Methodist minister who
was strongly against alcohol. Although not a major issue in rural
Lincolnshire, certain religous groups have v.v.strong views about
alcohol so using the argument that its something they've witness their
parents doing will not work.
> In no way should we advocate underage drinking,
true, but really by-passes the problem that young people do drink and we
need to be encouraging a sensible attitude to drink rather than driving
it underground for older Explorers. I recal Venture Leaders giving
Ventures a beer in a controlled situation, the older ones (18+) then
went to the bar and the younger ones came as well but drink coke or
lemonade!
if parents allow that
> at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
> stricter.
>
> I have a feeling that the temperance lot will soon attempt to make all
> sites 'dry' which would be a shame.
I think they would have a great problem. The Scout Association only
directly control about 15 sites, so whilst I think they could easily
impose restrictions on those sites assuming they remain open! For the
rest it would be a local decision of the site owners.
> To end a long first day with a cold beer and your mates what could be
> better........
By the end of a long first day all I usually want to do is sleep!
Martin
walsallwizard
<Ba...@martinwhelan.stinger.co.ie.uk> wrote:
>
>> I have been involved in both 'dry' and 'wet' camps how can be better
>> demonstrate to our charges a sensible attitude towards alcohol and is
>>
>
> it not something most scouts will have witnessed their parents doing.
>
>Careful if you are going down that line of argument. When I first
>started as a Cub helper, one of the parents was a Methodist minister who
>was strongly against alcohol. Although not a major issue in rural
>Lincolnshire, certain religous groups have v.v.strong views about
>alcohol so using the argument that its something they've witness their
>parents doing will not work.
>
Note I said most not all and yes we do need to be careful because we
have other peoples kids in our charge.
>> In no way should we advocate underage drinking,
>
>true, but really by-passes the problem that young people do drink and we
>need to be encouraging a sensible attitude to drink rather than driving
>it underground for older Explorers. I recal Venture Leaders giving
>Ventures a beer in a controlled situation, the older ones (18+) then
>went to the bar and the younger ones came as well but drink coke or
>lemonade!
>
Very true but as a venture scout our meetings were usually in the
pub........
the landlord was a former scout and let us use his social room for
meetings, this however caused a problem for one of the lads whose
parents only agreed to his continued presence once they had spoken to
the landlord and banned him drink.
> if parents allow that
>> at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
>> stricter.
>>
>> I have a feeling that the temperance lot will soon attempt to make all
>> sites 'dry' which would be a shame.
>
>I think they would have a great problem. The Scout Association only
>directly control about 15 sites, so whilst I think they could easily
>impose restrictions on those sites assuming they remain open! For the
>rest it would be a local decision of the site owners.
>
it is the sites they would get it banned on it would be all scouting
activities where kids are involved.
>> To end a long first day with a cold beer and your mates what could be
>> better........
>
>By the end of a long first day all I usually want to do is sleep!
lacking staying power lol
we all know we get no sleep the first night!!
>
>Martin
Richard Harding
>
>In no way should we advocate underage drinking, if parents allow that
>at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
>stricter.
>
Do not confuse the law regarding underage purchase with the law
regarding drinking. Purchase is barred to under 18's. Drinking is
barred to under 5's.
As far as I know there are no 5 year olds on camp other than with
parents and their drinking habits are not our problem other than their
effect on third parties.
Equally I am not advocating alcoholic refreshment for all on Beaver
sleepovers.
The present system of setting the guidelines to suit the circumstances
and local feelings is best. Any attempt at a national policy would
have to include the correct legal position and be totally
misunderstood whatever position it took.
Richard
DBL Belper
(Justices Licence holder for 15 years)
Paul Harris
<Ba...@martinwhelan.stinger.co.ie.uk> writes
>
>The only minor thing would be that from memory everything was served in
>proper glasses, at least in the staff bar. Probably to save waste, cos
>you bought a glass and kept it for the week, but they were very easy to
>break and with long grass/grass being the floor of the bar (in a
>marquee) it was often difficult to pick bits out. I tend to think the
>approach that an SU I visited was the best, everything goes into a
>plastic pint pot even the alco pops. Does create a lot of waste though.
>
time but you still had to buy them and therefore looked after them thus
continuing to reduce waste.
--
Paul Harris
Dave
"Richard Harding" <ric...@derbyshirewinesandbeers.co.uk> wrote in message
news:412ef54c...@news.individual.net...
>
> >
> >In no way should we advocate underage drinking, if parents allow that
> >at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
> >stricter.
> >
>
> Do not confuse the law regarding underage purchase with the law
> regarding drinking. Purchase is barred to under 18's. Drinking is
> barred to under 5's.
>
> Richard
> DBL Belper
> (Justices Licence holder for 15 years)
Out of interest here (as you will probably know holding a licence) - As I
understood it IF I buy in an off licence for under 18s not in my direct care
(ie street drinkers) then both the Licensee can get prosecuted for selling
knowing or believing that it is for under 18s and I for buying it - am I
wrong?
Secondly, if I was to take a child into a pub and bought them a beer, is
this legal or is it at the discression of the licensee? - not talking about
with food here. Bearing in mind I am again buying for an under 18 and the
licensee knows this.
This particular situation could have happened to me the other week when we
went as a family to a pub for a meal and I bought my wife a lager but my
daughter was with me at the bar - I was asked "That isn't for her is it".
DaveB
West Yorks
Nick Pedley
"Paul Harris" <nos...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:EkXSkRcS...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
Nick
Bart
>
> And they're nice and light for taking away on other camps too!
strange cos the usual plastic glass you get normally last for a while
before cracking, and usually it ends up with some of the pint depositing
itself on your hand.
Martin
Bart
>
> Out of interest here (as you will probably know holding a licence)
I may be wrong but I think licencing legislation is in the process of
being overhauled by the government, and a lot of anomalies are going
(allegdly) to be removed.
Martin
>
GAGS
"Neil Williams" <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote in message
news:412e6400...@news.freeserve.net...
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:17:19 +0100, "Nick Pedley"
> <nichola...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In my short time at Infocentre I fielded half a dozen calls about the
> >alcohol policy and nearly all were surprised to hear we did not actually
> >have one. I too was rather surprised at learning that.
>
> I'm not sure - I'm very much of the opinion that if it ain't broke
> don't fix it, and as far as I can tell there isn't a problem, so...
There isn't a national policy so there's nothing to fix if it did break and
most importantly there's nothing there to break.
>
> Setting a national policy on a (potentially) sensitive issue such as
> alcohol consumption would have the potential to either alienate a lot
> of leaders/Networkers if too strict, or to allow the gutter press to
> have a field day if too lax.
>
No. It's simply because any national policy would likely be too complex and
tortuous to frame and impossible to monitor and police. Even trying to write
a fairly simple policy would likely take quite some time and trying to
encompass all views and circumstances would lead to something running into
quite a few clauses over many pages that barely a handful of leaders could
comprehend. Thus the simple stance that is taken is not to be in favour of,
or against, a policy - total ambivalence - and to leave the final decision
on the matter to the leader i/c as they are in the best position. Of course,
irrespective of policy, the Law must be followed at all times.
GAGS
GAGS
"walsallwizard" <darkes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0vsi0t7p1rgfanuc...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:30:45 GMT, wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
> Williams) wrote:
>
> I have been involved in both 'dry' and 'wet' camps how can be better
> demonstrate to our charges a sensible attitude towards alcohol and is
> it not something most scouts will have witnessed their parents doing.
Demonstrating a so-called 'sensible attitude' can be very risky and
dangerous. Adopting such a stance should only be taken with the knowledge,
views and consent of all involved, and even then one should be wary. You may
find yourself walking through a potential minefield. Don't ever try to
second guess parents. They are fickle! A parent may well have quite liberal
views on drinking alcohol and communicate them as such to you, but these can
change at a moments notice and in different circumstances; their liberal
views, for example, may not include their application to their sons and
daughters.
Be careful is the advice many would give in this situation. What may be a
first a harmless activity can develop into an incident and it's not your
views that will be called into question but your ability to hold
responsibility and discharge your duty of care.
All I'm saying is that where alcohol, scouting and yp are concerned one
needs to be careful.
>
> In no way should we advocate underage drinking, if parents allow that
> at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
> stricter.
No it's not a matter of being strict or lax. It's a matter of effectively
discharging your duty of care to the yp. One needs to be aware that the
issue is full of grey areas, potential pitfalls, and widely varying views
and opinions. One doesn't need to go ott either way but one must tread
carefully. As a leader i/c one needs to remember that on issues like this
the responsibility rests entirely with the leader. There's no one and no
policy to come to your rescue if things go pear-shaped. That shouldn't
frighten leaders into taking a strong negative/opposing stance on the issue,
but it should remind them to take care where they tread. A balance on this
issue may well be found by many, but one should remember that this balance
can often be quite precarious. Being too strict or being too lax have
different meanings to different people.
>
> I have a feeling that the temperance lot will soon attempt to make all
> sites 'dry' which would be a shame.
Alcohol abuse, particularly among yp, is a growing concern. That means that
many more people will look into the issue a lot more closely, but no one is
going to go ott one way or the other.
>
> To end a long first day with a cold beer and your mates what could be
> better........ a curry to go with it of course!
:-)
GAGS
GAGS
>
> > I have been involved in both 'dry' and 'wet' camps how can be better
> > demonstrate to our charges a sensible attitude towards alcohol and is
> >
>
> it not something most scouts will have witnessed their parents doing.
>
> Careful if you are going down that line of argument. When I first
> started as a Cub helper, one of the parents was a Methodist minister who
> was strongly against alcohol. Although not a major issue in rural
> Lincolnshire, certain religous groups have v.v.strong views about
> alcohol so using the argument that its something they've witness their
> parents doing will not work.
Correct. Never try to second guess parents. They are a fickle lot!
>
> > In no way should we advocate underage drinking,
>
> true, but really by-passes the problem that young people do drink and we
> need to be encouraging a sensible attitude to drink rather than driving
> it underground for older Explorers.
True, but there are many ways to 'encourage a sensible attitude' and some of
these have more potential pitfalls than others. Striking a balance here is
not easy, people, circumstances, views and opinions can change, often quite
quickly. Tread carefully! Finger on the pulse at all times and don't push
things too far. Invariably on this issue one doesn't know what's round the
corner.
I recal Venture Leaders giving
> Ventures a beer in a controlled situation, the older ones (18+) then
> went to the bar and the younger ones came as well but drink coke or
> lemonade!
>
Be careful because there's rarely such a thing as a fully 'controlled
situation'!
> if parents allow that
> > at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
> > stricter.
> >
> > I have a feeling that the temperance lot will soon attempt to make all
> > sites 'dry' which would be a shame.
>
> I think they would have a great problem. The Scout Association only
> directly control about 15 sites, so whilst I think they could easily
> impose restrictions on those sites assuming they remain open! For the
> rest it would be a local decision of the site owners.
I don't think anyone really wants to step in and start making sweeping
policy statements unless there's a real need to do so. At the moment I think
leaders do an effective job with policies of their own and as I said I don't
see anyone else wanting to jump in to what would be a complex and difficult
issue to manage effectively on a wider scale. That doesn't mean that there
may be local policies where problems do/may exist.
>
> > To end a long first day with a cold beer and your mates what could be
> > better........
>
> By the end of a long first day all I usually want to do is sleep!
Likewise!
GAGS
GAGS
> >true, but really by-passes the problem that young people do drink and we
> >need to be encouraging a sensible attitude to drink rather than driving
> >it underground for older Explorers. I recal Venture Leaders giving
> >Ventures a beer in a controlled situation, the older ones (18+) then
> >went to the bar and the younger ones came as well but drink coke or
> >lemonade!
> >
> Very true but as a venture scout our meetings were usually in the
> pub........
> the landlord was a former scout and let us use his social room for
> meetings, this however caused a problem for one of the lads whose
> parents only agreed to his continued presence once they had spoken to
> the landlord and banned him drink.
>
So there was a problem. Who caused it? The landlord, the drinking laws, the
parents, or was it someone/body else?
Was there someone/body being unfair here?
GAGS
GAGS
The Licensing Act 2003 is the most recent legislation and this is now being
phased progressively across the country. There is nothing (IIRC) in this Act
that pertains directly to issues regarding drinking age. The Act essentially
deals with types of licenses, licensing hours, and licensing of premises and
events.
GAGS
GAGS
"Dave" <dave.ba...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:ufednVGsatz...@karoo.co.uk...
>
> Out of interest here (as you will probably know holding a licence) - As I
> understood it IF I buy in an off licence for under 18s not in my direct
care
> (ie street drinkers) then both the Licensee can get prosecuted for selling
> knowing or believing that it is for under 18s and I for buying it - am I
> wrong?
>
> Secondly, if I was to take a child into a pub and bought them a beer, is
> this legal or is it at the discression of the licensee? - not talking
about
> with food here. Bearing in mind I am again buying for an under 18 and the
> licensee knows this.
>
> This particular situation could have happened to me the other week when we
> went as a family to a pub for a meal and I bought my wife a lager but my
> daughter was with me at the bar - I was asked "That isn't for her is it".
>
IIRC the law regarding alcohol and age essentially is:
5 and up: May consume alcohol at home with adult supervision.
Under 14's: Can go into a pub with a children's certificate, but must be
with an adult and stay in the garden or family room or area covered by the
certificate..
14-16's: Can go into a pub/restaurant where alcohol is served and at
licensee's discretion may consume (but not purchase) alcohol bought by a
parent or guardian as long as it is with a meal.
16-17: May purchase beer, port, cider or perry in an eating area on licensed
premises (in Scotland this applies to wine too) as long as it is with a
meal.
Any age: No person may buy or attempt to buy intoxicating liquor for
consumption in a bar by a person under the age of 18.
The maximum fine for breaching these is £1000.
GAGS
GAGS
"GAGS" <absolutec...@craplineone.net> wrote in message
news:412f9...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
>
> IIRC the law regarding alcohol and age essentially is:
>
> 5 and up: May consume alcohol at home with adult supervision.
> Under 14's: Can go into a pub with a children's certificate, but must be
> with an adult and stay in the garden or family room or area covered by the
> certificate..
> 14-16's: Can go into a pub/restaurant where alcohol is served and at
> licensee's discretion may consume (but not purchase) alcohol bought by a
> parent or guardian as long as it is with a meal.
> 16-17: May purchase beer, port, cider or perry in an eating area on
licensed
> premises (in Scotland this applies to wine too) as long as it is with a
> meal.
> Any age: No person may buy or attempt to buy intoxicating liquor for
> consumption in a bar by a person under the age of 18.
>
> The maximum fine for breaching these is £1000.
>
Further to the above, have a look at:
http://www.ias.org.uk/factsheets/law.pdf
GAGS
Nick Pedley
Ah. In that case it'll join my collection of Scouting glasses/mugs/jugs et
al. Might still use it on special occasions. BTW, this is a thick plastic
like an ordinary pint glass, not a throwaway 'one gentle squeeze and its
broke' type.
Derek Biddle
an.stinger.co.ie.uk> writes
>
>> I have been involved in both 'dry' and 'wet' camps how can be better
>> demonstrate to our charges a sensible attitude towards alcohol and is
>>
>
> it not something most scouts will have witnessed their parents doing.
>
>Careful if you are going down that line of argument. When I first
>started as a Cub helper, one of the parents was a Methodist minister who
>was strongly against alcohol. Although not a major issue in rural
>Lincolnshire, certain religous groups have v.v.strong views about
>alcohol so using the argument that its something they've witness their
>parents doing will not work.
>
>
My son's group had 7 go to the Jamboree in Chile, and as a fund-raiser,
they planned to do a Quiz Night at their meeting place - a United
Reformed Church
I pointed out that a Quiz Night without even the ability to bring your
own alcoholic drinks would not get all that much support, and if you
couldn't even have a raffle, may not raise a lot of money.
It was held at my Church Hall, and we were allowed to get our own
license.
It isn't just different Scout Groups where attitudes are different.
Quite a few people from the URC church attended - I was not watching
whether or not they imbibed.
>Martin
>
--
Derek Biddle
Bart
BTW, this is a thick plastic
> like an ordinary pint glass, not a throwaway 'one gentle squeeze and its
> broke' type.
ah, i was thinking of the squeeze and hand now covered in half a pint of
local brew.
Martin
Bart
> "Neil Williams" <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:412e6400...@news.freeserve.net...
>
>>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:17:19 +0100, "Nick Pedley"
>><nichola...@npedley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In my short time at Infocentre I fielded half a dozen calls about the
>>>alcohol policy and nearly all were surprised to hear we did not actually
>>>have one. I too was rather surprised at learning that.
>>
>>I'm not sure - I'm very much of the opinion that if it ain't broke
>>don't fix it, and as far as I can tell there isn't a problem, so...
>
>
> There isn't a national policy so there's nothing to fix if it did break and
> most importantly there's nothing there to break.
>
>
>>Setting a national policy on a (potentially) sensitive issue such as
>>alcohol consumption would have the potential to either alienate a lot
>>of leaders/Networkers if too strict
Agreed it needs to be a local decision for it to work. A couple of years
ago I was brow beaten into considering one for SSAGO and even for an
organsiation of around 600 at the time, there were so many little
problems that anything meaningful was impossible. I recal a County Cub
some years ago, when I went as a young helper (Personal Project from old
CSA) and the event policy was no alcohol except in the bar and if you
had consumed any alcohol you had to sleep in a building next to the bar.
Ended up with some massive arguments and a couple of leaders asked to
leave the site!
Martin
Bart
> There isn't a national policy so there's nothing to fix if it did break and
> most importantly there's nothing there to break.
There was something kicking around in the summer/autumn 2001 that local
policies were being requested. Whether there was some grand plan to try
and formulate a national policy I dont know? If they did would it be
several different policies, one for Network/Adults where all
participants are 18+ , one for leaders in charge of yp etc. Would get
immensely complicated.
However this is different from specific national events having policies
about alcohol, smoking and general behaviour IMHO.
Martin
Richard Harding
>
>Out of interest here (as you will probably know holding a licence) - As I
>understood it IF I buy in an off licence for under 18s not in my direct care
>(ie street drinkers) then both the Licensee can get prosecuted for selling
>knowing or believing that it is for under 18s and I for buying it - am I
>wrong?
It depends whose money you used. If you bought them a drink out of the
kindness of your heart using your own funds then the only problem is
any laws regarding on street drinking and they would only apply to the
drinkers.
If you buy it as an agent for the children using their money you can
be prosecuted. As far as the retailer goes it would depend on whether
he had any chance of any knowledge of the transaction. If the children
had benn outside his property and bothering customers all night then
he would be at risk of prosecution. If they were at a location some
distance away then less so.
In reality the retailer usually picks up the can as when the police
question the drinkers the reply is we got it from such and such
without any mention of a third party. Video evidence that they never
entered your property is normally the only defence as you are
axiomatically considered to be guilty.
>
>Secondly, if I was to take a child into a pub and bought them a beer, is
>this legal or is it at the discression of the licensee? - not talking about
>with food here. Bearing in mind I am again buying for an under 18 and the
>licensee knows this.
The only allowable circumstance is with food and then only within
limitations. Otherwise you must be 18 to drink alcohol in a pub. The
publican is expected to regularly observe all areas of his premises
and prevent any underage purchase or drinking.
If you took the pint away from his premises onto other private
property it would be permissable unless you bought it with the child's
money in which case it would be an agency purchase.
The publican could of course prevent this with a private rule
forbidding the removal of his glasses from the premises and again the
police would tend to blame him for any technical breach of the law
hence his caution.
>
>This particular situation could have happened to me the other week when we
>went as a family to a pub for a meal and I bought my wife a lager but my
>daughter was with me at the bar - I was asked "That isn't for her is it".
>
>DaveB
>West Yorks
>
>
Richard
Richard Harding
Yes the net effect is to ensure that the licencee is blamed for more
things and has to pay for all the additional costs to run the system.
Richard
Dave Mayall
> In no way should we advocate underage drinking, if parents allow that
> at home that is their choice but as Leaders we have to be far
> stricter.
define "underage drinking"
Allowing a 14 y/o to have a drink isn't illegal
walsallwizard
If it is your own child then it is not illegal to give it alcohol at
any age, and yes I can hear you all screaming that legislation says 5
years but infacol contains alcohol!
The legal aspect is 5 years however by underage my definition would be
to apply the Gillick competence.
a person view is that if the parents allow it who are we to overrule
them but all things in moderation eh?
Dave Mayall
The law requires us to act as "a reasonable parent".
By that test, judging by the paucity of parents prosecuted for permitting
their 14 y/o children to drink in moderation, we may conclude that the law
accepts that reasonable parents do permit their 14 y/o children to drink in
moderation.
So, from a legal point of view, there is no problem.
So, the only issue is whether the parents are happy with your policy.
Obviously we wish to work in a way that the parents are happy with.
Note that the test in law is "*a* reasonable parent", not that child's
parent.