resignation accepted - I've been bullied out finally!
poison dwarf
with and survived, I have finally had to quit.
What drove me out? Lack of support from the GSL who allowed another leader
to make a threat of violance against me and stood and watched while same
leader yelled and intimidated me.
Now am on mission to ensure my reputation is clear, as I refuse to allow
another leader to ruin all the hard work I have put into the two packs, and
prevent my possibly returning to scouting in another role in the future.
My two assistant leaders have also quit for same reason, as we are unable to
get the GSL to even acknowledge us, let alone let us defend ourselves
against a serious claim of "Child Protection Issues"
Thought the bad management would drive me out, not the total lack of any
management!
--
Amanda Lawrence (Akela)
Dragons & Griffins
2nd/4th Barry Cub Scouts
Dave
"poison dwarf" <newsgrou...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:CqRdk.139842$ft1....@newsfe14.ams2...
Sorry to hear that Amanda - I do hope that it gets sorted very quickly.
Where does John stand on this.
DaveB
West Yorks
chris.5th
> "poison dwarf" <newsgroup.2nd...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
v sorry to hear this...
we had a brief issue with child protection last month. As leader in
charge I was straight on to HQ. They handled it brilliantly, their
professionalism reassured the parents, their tact and understanding k
ept the YL involved in scouting and a silly incident was dealt with to
everybody's satisfaction.
It scared the wits out of me how something could blow up. Groups could
be torn to pieces and lives destroyed. There is only one way to deal
with accusations like that and that is to go straight to the top.
I hope that everything turns out well. May i suggest that you go to HQ
with CP issues if your GSL does not. They are professionals. I have
used them twice and on both occasions have been grateful for every
penny we pay in capitation...
Tony Mochan
<newsgrou...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> So after all the crap I've put up with, the hassles and abuse I've dealt
> with and survived, I have finally had to quit.
Sorry to hear that - from what you have contributed to the newsgroup, I am
surprised that you've quit.
I do remember however the old adage that if someone offers their
resignation it should always be accepted immediately. One lesson I have
learned is that it's usually easier to fight the system from the inside!
Unaware of your own circumstance, but perhaps you should find a role in
Scouting without the hassles from other adults - I know, that's the golden
role we all want!
Only thing I can suggest is that if the GSL is a problem, then go to the
DC. Sometimes they can be useful!
Tony
--
Tony Mochan
Cub & Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
www.20thdundee.org.uk
poison dwarf
news:op.ud5hnam8700lht@mochalap...
I didn't quit in hopes of being talked out. I learnt always to only say what
you mean, and carry out any action you threaten.
Problem is, until this is resolved properly, we can't (any of us cub
leaders) even think about moving to another role, as our reputations are
being smeared unfairly.
Will contact HQ as per Chris.5th. Going to get our reputations back. Even
though we will be unable go back, we can always look to the future after
this.
chris.5th
wrote:
>
> Will contact HQ as per Chris.5th. Going to get our reputations back. Even
> though we will be unable go back, we can always look to the future after
> this.
good... we sometimes play fast and loose with our reputations...
giving kids lifts home, letting a kid getdropped off early... all the
innoccuous things but it only takes a whisper, a malicious nasty word
in a believing ear and our lives (both professinal and everthing else)
are ruined.
I'm about to go and pick up an explorer, his mum's poorly and it's the
only real way to get him to he kayaking... but i'll be on my own with
him for half an hour... should i just say he can't go??! course not...
but it's one more tiny opportunity for a whisper to start... and those
whispers could destroy my professional life as well as my hobby. I'd
be left with nothing. Good luck Amanda... I'd be bereft without
scouting and destroyed without my job... i wish you so very well
Roger
Hmm
I just read this and realised how true. I wonder how many can hold
their hand up and say I've never done it.
Are the risks worth it - YES cause the day I stop giving raassuarance
to a cub that fallen over is the day I give up. A there there and arm
around the shoulder very often solves the minor wound or problem.
Political correctness - I must be getting old
Roger Woods
CSL
Stephen Rainsbury
Serioulsy you need to so that as soon as possible, include dates, locations,
times etc but NO opinions, just a record of events and statements of
absolute fact. That way if you are asked to produce eveidence it will mor
dificult for somebody else to argue with it without calling you a liar.
If you want to record your opinion then keep it as a seperate document
referring back to the first one.
Personally I use language like "fred tol me that there was a CP pronlem that
needed to be addresssed, however I was not completely sure what he meant as
he was shouting at the time and I felt extremley uncomfortable"
When you have done this send a copy to the DC or district chairman, and ask
them to keep it safe for you.
It is VERY improtant to do this as soon as possible as your memory of what
happened will change with time as will teh other person's, but your document
won't.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
Stephen Rainsbury
news:jcsg74l64g1tii99c...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:51:58 -0700 (PDT), "chris.5th"
> I just read this and realised how true. I wonder how many can hold
> their hand up and say I've never done it.
Don't forget yellow card is guidance NOT law, but you don't have much to
call on if you ignore it.
CP issues are in various grades,
Stephen Rainsbury
news:lr%dk.25436$E41....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> "Roger" <woo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jcsg74l64g1tii99c...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:51:58 -0700 (PDT), "chris.5th"
>
>> I just read this and realised how true. I wonder how many can hold
>> their hand up and say I've never done it.
>
> Don't forget yellow card is guidance NOT law, but you don't have much to
> call on if you ignore it.
>
> CP issues are in various grades,
oops pressed control delete which sent the message!!
COP issues are in various CATEGORIES , things like giving lifts is a problem
because the kid COULD accuse you of something, but there was presumably no
existing ill feeling so the chances are low.
Giving a kid a bollocking is another matter they are going to hate you and
far more likely to make a false accusation
But hey who can know?
I know a CSL who was accused of something by a kid simply because she wasn't
allowed to go first in a game
poison dwarf
thanks for all the advice, just been in contact with HQ and we will be doing
the paperwork, recording events and getting the situation documented.
Like the idea of two sets, one factual and the other personal opinions,
keeps it clean.
Scared stiff by all this, and stomach hasn't stopped churning all week.
Dread to think state I'd be in if I was guilty!
Mainly relieved due to the fact that if I'd resigned on my own, would purely
be me stomping my feet in temper and I'd deservedly be kicked out. But that
we all have had to leave due to situation shows that is not me being petty
or silly.
baloo
I am sorry to hear this. I can't really offer any real advice - if I
have a problem the first person I would seek advice (and hopefully a
resolution) from would be the GSL! Clearly he is going to be of little
help in your situation.
I would get someone from the District involved in this as soon as
possible. If your 2 assistants have also resigned then there is
clearly major issues within the Group that needs to be addressed at a
"higher" level, especially as the GSL refuses to even acknowledge you.
I wish you well and hope that this is resolved as soon as possible.
Peter
CSL - 2nd Bracknell - Scouting for Bullbrook & Warfield - www.2ndbracknell.co.uk
Ewan Scott
<newsgrou...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Oh dear. Like everyone else, I'm sorry to hear this.
And here I go again, going against the trend. You may have made a
mistake by resigning. You are now outside the tent pissing in.
You are now no longer a difficulty for the GSL or the DC, you are not
members, you are disgruntled ex members who resigned under a cloud.
Nasty position to be in Amanda.
The SA has a complaints procedure laid out in POR and it is there for
use in circumstances such as this.
You say that another Leader made a threat of violence against you?
Then go to the Police. It is a criminal offence to threaten someone in
the UK. In some cases the punishment for threatening someone is
greater than that for actually carrying out the threat.
Ok, so most reasonable people might not go to the Police, but then
again, an able bodied adult threatening someone who is less physically
able is very questionable and GSL or not, you have a case for
complaint, or you would have had you not resigned. It is much easier
to be a pain to those in management if you are still a member. Once
you quite it becomes an individual against the movement.
It seems to me that you have a complaint against the other Leader and
the GSL. You need to move this up the ladder, DC, Field Commissioner,
CC. But you may find that now that you have resigned they will be less
likely to keep you involved in any "investigation".
Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk
Eddie Langdown
"poison dwarf" <newsgrou...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:CqRdk.139842$ft1....@newsfe14.ams2...
> So after all the crap I've put up with, the hassles and abuse I've dealt
> with and survived, I have finally had to quit.
So very sorry to hear... I do understand the 'stomach churning' , these
things get to us simply becuase we invest so much of ourselves, our time and
personal beliefs in our work with the kids. We lay ourselves on the line,
we make ourselves vulnerable, we take it to the very edge giving everything
we have got to this wonderful game of scouting... which is why it hurts so
much and why we feel the injustice, the sheer effrontery so deeply.
It seems that from your letter, a great many of us are feeling it too.
All the very best Amanda,
Eddie Langdown 16th Bermondsey London
imlike...@hotmail.com
wrote:
just joined this group but have been a browser for a whule.
i had trouble with a group of leaders from an old group bullying me
etc a few years ago. but i was "lucky" my husband is in the army and
he had a new posting so i got away.
keep us up to date and see if we can help.
marm
Shaun Joynson
You are clearly a very good Cub Leader.
For the rest of you, Amanda's brother came down South for a few days
recently and I put him up at my place.
Afterwards, I went to visit Amanda at her camp and she was able to
find time to chat to me while her team were engaging the Cubs in a lot
of useful activities. That isn't easy to do when you are running a
camp.
Sorry to hear of your problems and I hope they get resolved soon.
Regards
Shaun
john.m...@ntlworld.com
IIRC there is only one appeal allowed so START AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
If you start with a complaint against the Leader who shouted at you it
will be heard by the GSL. The appeal will be heard by the DC.
It appears that this will get you nowhere. If I read correctly your
complaint is that the DC is failing to deal with a CP issue and
bullying against yourself. You should make the complaint to HQ and
the County Commissioner should deal with it.
Only line of appeal is then to HQ.
Follow Steve Rainsbury's advise re documenting the events.
Good luck!
Paul Harris
<c1c85ccb-db86-4de7...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>,
Shaun Joynson <sh...@shaunjoynson.com> writes
>
>Sorry to hear of your problems and I hope they get resolved soon.
>
remain impartial and found out the facts and taken advice from above,
the DC should investigate what has happened. It would have better to
have remained with a Warrant rather than resign but it is easy to be
wise after the event. If you had remained a member then the DC should
really have appointed someone who is an experienced Leader who could
help you with advice whilst this is being sorted out but that option may
not now be offered although HQ might help. If you need someone to talk
to I would assist where I can.
--
Paul Harris
Dave Mayall
>>I'm about to go and pick up an explorer, his mum's poorly and it's the
>>only real way to get him to he kayaking... but i'll be on my own with
>>him for half an hour... should i just say he can't go??! course not...
>>but it's one more tiny opportunity for a whisper to start... and those
>>whispers could destroy my professional life as well as my hobby. I'd
>>be left with nothing. Good luck Amanda... I'd be bereft without
>>scouting and destroyed without my job... i wish you so very well
>
>Hmm
>
>I just read this and realised how true. I wonder how many can hold
>their hand up and say I've never done it.
I sure as hell can't!
Certainly, I have, on occasion, varied the route such that the kid I
have in the car on his/her own is one that I know damn well, and know
his/her parents damn well, but you simply can't avoid situations
entirely if you want to run a programme.
Dave Mayall
<newsgrou...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Very sad to hear this Amanda.
May I please join the crowd (or are we a baying mob yet) in offering
any assistance or advice that I possibly can in getting sorted those
things that you wish to get sorted.
Stephen Rainsbury
charges have been leveled against you AND BY WHOM.
Her suggestion was something like
"Dear Fred,
I understand that some seriousl allegations have been leveled against me.
Could you please let me know, in writing, what these allegations are and who
has made them please?
Once I have had chance to read and understand these allegations I would like
to arrange a time to meet with you to discuss them.
Amada"
But apparently they don't HAVE to say anything or even talk to you unless it
goes to court. Her other comment was that you should consider taking an
independant witness, not to speak but listen, but preferably not a member of
the movement to avoid a conflict of interests.
GAGS
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:48:13 +0100, "poison dwarf"
> Oh dear. Like everyone else, I'm sorry to hear this.
>
Me too!
> And here I go again, going against the trend.
I'm sorry but you're no more a rebel than I am! :-)
> You may have made a
> mistake by resigning.
She sure did.
> You are now outside the tent pissing in.
Eloquently put. :-)
>
> You are now no longer a difficulty for the GSL or the DC, you are not
> members, you are disgruntled ex members who resigned under a cloud.
> Nasty position to be in Amanda.
DCs are people who deal with problems (among other things); it's the
nature of the job. However, like most of us, some are good at dealing
with problems, but most are not. The one sort of problem they don't
particularly like are 'people problems'. Given half a chance many DCs
will happily leave a people issue on the back burner. Why? Well
sometimes touching it can often lead to burnt fingers, etc.
DCs love to 'sit on the fence' when and wherever they can. They look
to the situation resolving itself - it dies away with time - or the
people involved resolving it themselves - making up or leaving.
Resigning is an easy get-out for a DC. Problem solved and they haven't
had to take sides. Taking sides when there are 'personalities'
involved is particularly dangerous for a DC; most are reluctant to do
so unless they're pressed.
Resigning has given the DC an immediate solution. It hasn't resolved
the problem/issue per se, it's just meant the problem he had has gone
away.
If you have an issue - especially if it's a principled issue - then
decide if it's worth fighting for and assess the damage that'll be
done. If you decide to press on, do not resign - or even worse,
threaten to resign - because all that does is make the need for a
solution disappear because one party has disappeared.
On the outside 'pissing in', as Ewan delightfully puts it, is a
position of weakness.
>
> The SA has a complaints procedure laid out in POR and it is there for
> use in circumstances such as this.
Absolutely!
>
> You say that another Leader made a threat of violence against you?
> Then go to the Police. It is a criminal offence to threaten someone in
> the UK. In some cases the punishment for threatening someone is
> greater than that for actually carrying out the threat.
>
> Ok, so most reasonable people might not go to the Police, but then
> again, an able bodied adult threatening someone who is less physically
> able is very questionable and GSL or not, you have a case for
> complaint, or you would have had you not resigned. It is much easier
> to be a pain to those in management if you are still a member. Once
> you quite it becomes an individual against the movement.
Most likely it was an ideal threat made in an off-the-cuff manner. Not
suggesting it should be ignored or it wasn't in anyway not serious. If
you really believe that physical violence is certain then go to the
police, otherwise it must be reported to the DC.
The normal procedure for a complaint made by one group-based leader
against another is for the GSL to resolve/arbitrate, etc. However, if
it's the GSL that's involved, or it's so serious it needs to go to a
higher authority, then it must go up to the DC.
>
> It seems to me that you have a complaint against the other Leader and
> the GSL. You need to move this up the ladder, DC, Field Commissioner,
> CC. But you may find that now that you have resigned they will be less
> likely to keep you involved in any "investigation".
It's more likely that someone will say that the issue has been
resolved and as such there will probably be no further investigation
unless of course the nature of the issue itself warrants it. Many
people will likely want to bury it.
GAGS
GAGS
> with and survived, I have finally had to quit.
I'm very sad to hear that.
>
> What drove me out? Lack of support from the GSL who allowed another leader
> to make a threat of violance against me and stood and watched while same
> leader yelled and intimidated me.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of either side a threat of violence and
intimidation cannot, and must not, be tolerated.
A GSL cannot stand idly by if there is an issue between leaders in
their group.
>
> Now am on mission to ensure my reputation is clear, as I refuse to allow
> another leader to ruin all the hard work I have put into the two packs, and
> prevent my possibly returning to scouting in another role in the future.
Wow that bad eh?
>
> My two assistant leaders have also quit for same reason, as we are unable to
> get the GSL to even acknowledge us, let alone let us defend ourselves
> against a serious claim of "Child Protection Issues"
Ah right so the issue is not just simply 'I don't like you!'
Who has made the allegation of serious CP issues, the other leader?
If they have then it's down to the DC as per POR 2.4f
So is there an investigation into the allegations under way or have
you been suspended, etc?
>
> Thought the bad management would drive me out, not the total lack of any
> management!
>
There is a set procedure for all this. Why isn't it seemingly being
followed?
GAGS
MatSav
news:c93ea477-9091-4353...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>...
> There is a set procedure for [leader disputes and CP
> allegations]
> Why isn't it seemingly being followed?
"Dodge City"?
--
MatSav
Marc
Deadwood,next state over.
Ewan Scott
>> You are now outside the tent pissing in.
>
>Eloquently put. :-)
>
>>
Edward G Hoover. "It is better to have him inside the tent pissing out
than outside the tent pissing in."
Which on consideration is the situation that the GSL and DC may find
themselves in but Amanda may find it very difficult if the doors are
zipped tightly closed - as they surely will be.
GAGS
> >> You are now outside the tent pissing in.
>
> >Eloquently put. :-)
>
> It was originally attributed to Lyndon B Johnson, with regard to
> Edward G Hoover. "It is better to have him inside the tent pissing out
> than outside the tent pissing in."
Thanks for the history lesson!
>
> Which on consideration is the situation that the GSL and DC may find
> themselves in but Amanda may find it very difficult if the doors are
> zipped tightly closed - as they surely will be.
Very true.
This sort of thing probably isn't that rare in scouting or any other
organisation where there is bound to be clashes of personalities,
differences of opinion, widely varying views, etc.
The error of judgement - imo - that Amanda has made in resigning is
one which many of us would've equally done.
Many, many years ago (when I was just starting out as a leader) I got
into a difference of opinion with my SL. Fed up with his perceived
incompetence I resigned - probably more in protest. Bad mistake. I
realised later that I'd let the GSL off the hook and removed from them
the need to sort out the problem. My resignation solved everyone's
problems bar mine! (I returned sometime later when the SL resigned
because he felt he couldn't do the job.)
Later on in my scouting career I had another resigning episode this
time in a dispute with a GSL. I had been accused of various things -
no foundation to any of them - and they (the GSL) wanted me out. It
was obvious to everyone that in such a situation I would resign. I
didn't. Correct thing to do. GSL now pushes to get rid of me, but how?
Accusing someone of CP issues is one way. Anyone who deliberately
falls foul of CPP is going to be out. Problem is that making an
accusation without any back-up evidence is dangerous. Failure to prove
a charge of deliberately breaking CPP immediately risks the counter
charge by the accused of slander. The GSL in my case knew that this
strategy wouldn't work. Another way is proving that someone of poor
performance, i.e. s/he isn't up to scratch/standard. Bit difficult in
my case especially as the DC and ADC had just given me a 'pat on the
back'.
In the end they realised that they couldn't pin any one of the
standard reasons for withdrawl of warrant (given in POR 3.39, IIRC) on
me. In the end the GSL gave up looking for reasons (because there were
none!) and just simply 'sacked' me - whatever that might mean. I moved
on elsewhere in scouting.
It's actually quite hard to remove a warrant from a leader if they do
the basic functions of their role, meet training obligations and keep
their nose clean. You can't just get rid of someone just because you
don't like them!
I can't offer much advice to Amanda except to say: withdraw your
warrant resignation if you can (and apologise to the DC - stress of
the situation, etc); tell the DC that you wish to resign from the
group - not a lot you can do here if you don't have the support of
fellow leaders and GSL - but not from scouting; and, ask for an
interim change of appointment to something such as DCSL until you can
decide what to do in the future.
I have every sympathy for Amanda. I know it doesn't sound right or
fair for amanda to be seemingly 'forced' out while other incompetent
(iho) leaders remain. Sadly that's life. Take the knock and move on. I
did and I feel I'm a better leader/person for it.
GAGS
Gooders
>>> You are now outside the tent pissing in.
>> Eloquently put. :-)
>>
> It was originally attributed to Lyndon B Johnson, with regard to
> Edward G Hoover. "It is better to have him inside the tent pissing out
> than outside the tent pissing in."
>