Scouts - Expedition Challenge
Stephen Rainsbury
worked really well. Another local SL found out about it and asked if I could
do the same for him as his team have always avoided because they didn't have
the necessary skill set.
Thats not a problem but I wondered if anybody else had a problem with it
too. Comments would be welcome please.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
DESC Gillingham, Kent
www.gillinghamscouts.org.uk
hinchli...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:
No issues in running it - but as with most of the challenges its hard
to pitch at the right level.
Dave
"Stephen Rainsbury" <nos...@rainsbury.net.text> wrote in message
news:p3bim.68730$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>A few weeks back I helped a local troop run an expedition challenge, and it
>worked really well. Another local SL found out about it and asked if I
>could do the same for him as his team have always avoided because they
>didn't have the necessary skill set.
>
> Thats not a problem but I wondered if anybody else had a problem with it
> too. Comments would be welcome please.
>
We do. We haven't had anyone gain it for a long time. Different set of kids.
Won't walk, cycle etc. Hate map reading etc. Some rarely camp.
I'm not sure why some are even Scouts.
Not something to be proud of but it is 4 years since we had anyone gain CS
Gold because they just don't put the time and effort in.
Its good that someone is asking for help though as they must have kids who
want to do it and they don't know where to start.
Good luck
DaveB
West Yorks
Paul Harris
<dave.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>Not something to be proud of but it is 4 years since we had anyone gain CS
>Gold because they just don't put the time and effort in.
>
effort to achieve and there are no losers everyone is a winner. You get
a certificate for making a glass of squash or catching a bus so how does
that compare to what is expected for CSA.
--
Paul Harris
Chris.5th
wrote:
the problem is having the time to run the training sessions...
i have the skills to teach the badge... most leaders locally probably
don't.
we ran 5 training sessions (whole days or afternoons with me walking
with them for 2 hikes and them walking by themselves via me on bases
for the next three. that is am awful lot of time to dedicate to it...
Paul Harris
<4356989b-4248-4db4...@d32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Chris.5th <ch...@elmer.me.uk> writes
>the problem is having the time to run the training sessions...
>
>i have the skills to teach the badge... most leaders locally probably
>don't.
>
a day I wondered if any of the other Leaders who don't have the skills
would be willing to learn. It would be a better idea to spend some of
that time training the trainer rather than the y.p. Time put in to
training other adults to have the skills could produce larger dividends
if they are willing to learn as then they could run sessions themselves
for more y.p.
--
Paul Harris
Pete
> A few weeks back I helped a local troop run an expedition challenge,
> and it worked really well. Another local SL found out about it and
> asked if I could do the same for him as his team have always avoided
> because they didn't have the necessary skill set.
>
> Thats not a problem but I wondered if anybody else had a problem with
> it too. Comments would be welcome please.
Personally no I don't have a problem running it - I reserve it for the
oldest each year (i.e. those in their last year with me before going up to
Explorers).
We do map reading & hikes a little here and there (nothing too serious
though!), so by the time they get to that age they should have a rough idea
of what to do. They spend probably 3 or 4 evenings after the Scourts have
gone home (while I'm running Explorers) planning their routes (simplified
DofE template), then finish them at home.
I usually run it as a link activity with the Unit and get one or two
Explorers to walk with the Scouts for guidance - gives them independance
from the leaders but also a guiding hand is still with them to help if they
get stuck. I meet them at their lunch stop and stay on site overnight.
Generally I use it as a step towards DofE Bronze - the roues are shorter,
they carry less kit (tents, personal kit, food & stove for lunch - I take
the rest) and we have a bit of fun in the evening at the campsite (games or
activity such as air rifles). The idea is to break them in gently, not give
them such a hard time they don't want to do it again!
I agree the skill set could be a problem for some leaders and at the first
look the challenge could look daunting, but break it down in to small chunks
and treat the outline requirements as a guide - be flexible to suit your
Scouts (and the skillset of the leaders) - as long as it is in the spirit
and not wildly from the book then go for it - better to start simple and
build up over time than not to bother at all.
Pete
--
Peter Maley
SL, 3rd Whitstable
ESL, Tombstones ESU
Stephen Rainsbury
news:aZ6dndA68PEI3BTX...@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> Its good that someone is asking for help though as they must have kids who
> want to do it and they don't know where to start.
He is very new to scouting and trying to offer them all possible activities.
The original idea was that my unit would offer the service as a package to
any troop, three or four training nights plus an expedition weekend. This
got teh scouts their badge and my explorers service hours for their awards.
The problem is the ES that run it have already done their hours anyway.
Stephen Rainsbury
news:4356989b-4248-4db4...@d32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
The point I have been trying to make to the SLs is that the other option is
90 minutes travel to a strange place, stay in a YH (or scout HQ), carry out
some kind of project and travel back next day, quite possibly using public
transport. In theory they wouldn't need an specialist skills and it would
be perfectly acceptable to use an A-Z :-0
Stephen Rainsbury
"Paul Harris" <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:BLx0pDJV...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
> If it is an investment of 5 sessions with each being a whole day or half a
> day I wondered if any of the other Leaders who don't have the skills would
> be willing to learn. It would be a better idea to spend some of that time
> training the trainer rather than the y.p. Time put in to training other
> adults to have the skills could produce larger dividends if they are
> willing to learn as then they could run sessions themselves for more y.p.
My thouights exactly but many leaders seem to be put off by what they see as
difficult skillls to aquire. Some seem to think its just a watered down QSA
expedition, but its not.
In practice they need to know a bit about maps (it actually says follow the
journey, not naviagte) how to cook and how to carry out a project.
They don't need to know how to use a compass, a tent, a trangia, or anything
else that I woudl expect on an ES expedition, but that message isn't getting
across.
Stephen Rainsbury
news:X_mdnT7qWtnGLBTX...@brightview.co.uk...
> I agree the skill set could be a problem for some leaders and at the first
> look the challenge could look daunting, but break it down in to small
> chunks and treat the outline requirements as a guide - be flexible to suit
> your Scouts (and the skillset of the leaders) - as long as it is in the
> spirit and not wildly from the book then go for it - better to start
> simple and build up over time than not to bother at all.
Agreed.
Paul Harris
Rainsbury <nos...@rainsbury.net.text> writes
>
>The point I have been trying to make to the SLs is that the other option is
>90 minutes travel to a strange place, stay in a YH (or scout HQ), carry out
>some kind of project and travel back next day, quite possibly using public
>transport. In theory they wouldn't need an specialist skills and it would
>be perfectly acceptable to use an A-Z :-0
>
down to the point where the SL's think that this is beyond the yp and in
some cases beyond the SL's.
--
Paul Harris
MatSav
Any of the Challenge Awards or Activity Badges that require a
write-up, or log book, seem to be beyond the capability of most
of the Scouts in my troop.
--
MatSav
Paul Harris
<matthew@|.dot.invalid> writes
>> have dumbed down to the point where the SL's think that this is
>> beyond the yp and in some cases beyond the SL's.
>
>Any of the Challenge Awards or Activity Badges that require a
>write-up, or log book, seem to be beyond the capability of most
>of the Scouts in my troop.
>
expeditions was never the easiest task to complete as it was like being
back at School. We would complete the hike but when it came to
documenting it many were reluctant to do it and some never seemed to get
round to it and that wasn't through lack of ability. It sometimes took
a real push to even get the Grammar School members to get on with it
because it wasn't what we came to Scouts to do.
--
Paul Harris
Dave
"MatSav" <matthew | dot | savage | at | dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com> wrote
in message news:ZpmdnaA77ZExoxfX...@pipex.net...
SNIP
> Any of the Challenge Awards or Activity Badges that require a write-up, or
> log book, seem to be beyond the capability of most of the Scouts in my
> troop.
>
I would agree - infact I would go further and suggest that for many any
effort or time outside a Troop meeting is too much effort.
DaveB
West Yorks
rev...@btinternet.com
Well I'm glad it isn't just the Troop I work with. Except only rarely, they
do nothing outside Troop night, the evening when they turn up to see what's
been organised for them. They don't read any literature, and don't seem
interested in even knowing the Challenge requirements. Self motivation to
find anything out or learn anything, even basic skills, just seems missing.
And yet they can be enthusiastic as long as everything is done for them.
Sometimes, I wonder if it's because they pay subs, they think their buying a
service. On the other hand, perhaps I'm just getting too old for this
business.
Tony D
Gloucestershire
Chris.5th
> "Dave" <dave.barwic...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:776dnQIDVu8qxxfX...@eclipse.net.uk...
>
>
>
> > "MatSav" <matthew | dot | savage | at | dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com>
> > SNIP
> >> Any of the Challenge Awards or Activity Badges that require a write-up,
> >> or log book, seem to be beyond the capability of most of the Scouts in my
> >> troop.
>
> > I would agree - infact I would go further and suggest that for many any
> > effort or time outside a Troop meeting is too much effort.
>
> > DaveB
> > West Yorks
>
> Well I'm glad it isn't just the Troop I work with. Except only rarely, they
> do nothing outside Troop night, the evening when they turn up to see what's
> been organised for them. They don't read any literature, and don't seem
> interested in even knowing the Challenge requirements. Self motivation to
> find anything out or learn anything, even basic skills, just seems missing.
> And yet they can be enthusiastic as long as everything is done for them.
> Sometimes, I wonder if it's because they pay subs, they think their buying a
> service. On the other hand, perhaps I'm just getting too old for this
> business.
>
> Tony D
> Gloucestershire
Hi Tony,
I completely misunderstood the new system when it came in... based on
your posting... I wanted to clear up how i now understand it...
The SL's job is to run events that take the kids through almost
everything that is required for Chief Scouts Gold. If a kid does most
of what he arranges... by the time they have done their last summer
camp, they should have earned their CSG.
My PLs all earned their CSG this summer and had ZERO idea how they had
managed it... it was a complete shock to them... (it's taken me a few
years to get to the stage where my programme meets the requirments)
CSG: This badge is the highest award available in the Scout Section.
It is gained by completing:
Promise Challenge
Community Challenge
Fitness Challenge
Creative Challenge
Global Challenge
Outdoor Challenge
Plust two of the following three:
Adventure Challenge
Expedition Challenge
Outdoor Plus Challenge
Looking at a couple of those in detail:
*Promise Challenge*
-Demonstrate that you can be trusted by taking on a special
responsibility on behalf of the Troop. This might involve the
management of money, or the Troop's reputation.
run the tuck shop
-Successfully lead a group of Scouts at a two-day camp or other
similar event.
they do this loads
-Successfully run a learning experience for other Scouts.
teaching lashings during a pioneering night
-Take part in a number of acts of worship with others in the Troop,
such as Scout Parades at your place of worship, and/or Scouts' Owns.
remembrance day, church parade, scouts owns etc
- Take an active part in at least two Troop Forums and express your
views on at least one item being discussed.
they do this a few times
*The Creative Challenge*
-Have a go at some creative crafts.For example: glass painting,
macramé, art-straws, leatherwork, photography, sweet making,
decorative knotting, or candle making.
we do this loads
- Take an active part in activities requiring a number of problem-
solving skills, effective teamwork and creative thinking.
For example: Incident hikes or timed challenges, mental, physical or
skill.
please tell me we all do this?
- Construct a model.
For example: model aircraft, 3-D jigsaw, model pioneering project, or
model campsite.
as again... we all do this don't we?
----------
by taking part in a well run programme... a scout can get their CSG
without even knowing it! (especially if you go to kandersteg... we are
lucky there!)
the only real challenge is the expedition but it is not compulsory for
the CSG...
___________
I though the kids had to keep records and work themselves towards the
challenges... i soon realised that it is our job as leaders to lead
the kids to the awards...
Tony D
Hi Tony,
<SNIP>
I though the kids had to keep records and work themselves towards the
challenges... i soon realised that it is our job as leaders to lead
the kids to the awards...
----------------------------------------------------
Yes, I like to think we have a varied and well balanced programme that
covers all the zones and permits the completion of the Challenges ..........
it just that when you dole out the badges it would be nice if they knew what
they were, and what they had done to earn them.
TonyD
Gloucestershire
Stephen Rainsbury
in message news:ZpmdnaA77ZExoxfX...@pipex.net...
> Any of the Challenge Awards or Activity Badges that require a write-up, or
> log book, seem to be beyond the capability of most of the Scouts in my
> troop.
They can do a video blog.
Dave
Hi Tony,
*Promise Challenge*
run the tuck shop
they do this loads
*The Creative Challenge*
macram�, art-straws, leatherwork, photography, sweet making,
decorative knotting, or candle making.
we do this loads
- Take an active part in activities requiring a number of problem-
solving skills, effective teamwork and creative thinking.
For example: Incident hikes or timed challenges, mental, physical or
skill.
please tell me we all do this?
- Construct a model.
For example: model aircraft, 3-D jigsaw, model pioneering project, or
model campsite.
as again... we all do this don't we?
----------
by taking part in a well run programme... a scout can get their CSG
without even knowing it! (especially if you go to kandersteg... we are
lucky there!)
the only real challenge is the expedition but it is not compulsory for
the CSG...
___________
I though the kids had to keep records and work themselves towards the
challenges... i soon realised that it is our job as leaders to lead
the kids to the awards...
I agree with what you have written - but there are many who take little
interest - they will come to Scouts and cite boring when learning the knots,
the compass work etc. They need to know these things to progress let alone
train someone else.
As most Troops meet in an evening you need to arrange some things at a
weekend or other time to put them into practice or they need to do something
at home. This is called commitment and some of them have none so even if a
leader busts a gut running a balanced programme there is no guarantee they
will attend or take take part. Luckily enough do just to make it worthwhile.
Take camping - we hold a Christmas camp indoors and most of them will come.
We offer (as do District & County) many opportunities for weekend camps at a
reasonable cost from around 20 kids we may get 6 to 8. We go on a week long
summer camp - usually a large event as there is plenty to do to keep them
occupied much of the day. This year to the Auchengillan Jamboree - we took 3
Scouts.....
DaveB
West Yorks
rjlawler
> The point I have been trying to make to the SLs is that the other option is
> 90 minutes travel to a strange place, stay in a YH (or scout HQ), carry out
> some kind of project and travel back next day, quite possibly using public
> transport. In theory they wouldn't need an specialist skills and it would
> be perfectly acceptable to use an A-Z :-0
>
> --
> Stephen Rainsbury
> DESC Gillingham, Kentwww.gillinghamscouts.org.uk
I'm in the process of starting our first lot for a while through the
Expedition Challenge and wondered what other leaders are setting their
Scouts as the goal of the expedition under 'journey with a purpose',
or what they carry out an exploration of under the 'purpose with a
journey' option?
Robert
Stephen Rainsbury
news:88a0f768-1f95-4dd7...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>I'm in the process of starting our first lot for a while through the
>Expedition Challenge and wondered what other leaders are setting their
>Scouts as the goal of the expedition under 'journey with a purpose',
Ideas:
- Take a photo every 15 minutes and for their report stick their map on a
board, put the photos round teh outside and put a line to where each photo
was taken
- Photographic A-Z (take a photo of something starting with each letter)
- Report on state of public footpaths on route.(with photos)
- Report on litter (with photos)
>or what they carry out an exploration of under the 'purpose with a
>journey' option?
These tend not to be so popular, but one idea I liked was to visit
Canterbury (by bus) and plan a weekend of activities there for the rest of
the troop. They stayed in a Scout HQ on the Saturday night, bought their own
KFC, watched DVDs on the host troops TV, stayed in the hut by themselves,
and swept up next morning to say thanks!
Pete
> I'm in the process of starting our first lot for a while through the
> Expedition Challenge and wondered what other leaders are setting their
> Scouts as the goal of the expedition under 'journey with a purpose',
> or what they carry out an exploration of under the 'purpose with a
> journey' option?
Ours usually is to undertake an activity which we couldn't do on a troop
night, i.e. Rifle Shooting, Archery or the like. They also have to take
plenty of photos and make up a display board when they return which stays in
our HQ hallway until replaced by the next group the following year.
John Mann
<88a0f768-1f95-4dd7...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
rjlawler <rjla...@gmail.com> writes
>I'm in the process of starting our first lot for a while through the
>Expedition Challenge and wondered what other leaders are setting their
>Scouts as the goal of the expedition under 'journey with a purpose',
>or what they carry out an exploration of under the 'purpose with a
>journey' option?
>
>Robert
Long ago when I did my Duke of Edinburgh's award, it was part of the
expedition planning (by the participants) to come up with a purpose.
--
**** jo...@evenlode.demon.co.uk ****
http://www.evenlode.demon.co.uk
John Mann -- Hook Norton -- Oxfordshire -- UK
Paul Harris
<jo...@evenlode.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article
><88a0f768-1f95-4dd7...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>rjlawler <rjla...@gmail.com> writes
>>I'm in the process of starting our first lot for a while through the
>>Expedition Challenge and wondered what other leaders are setting their
>>Scouts as the goal of the expedition under 'journey with a purpose',
>>or what they carry out an exploration of under the 'purpose with a
>>journey' option?
>
>expedition planning (by the participants) to come up with a purpose.
Long ago we used to plan and complete the whole thing with the minimum
of interference as the Leaders just kept a watching brief as we were
putting into practice what we had learnt. Now it seems that there is no
longer a need to think for ones self, someone else will tell you where
to go and what to do and will virtually come with you and never be very
far away to make sure that you are OK. Don't we trust them any more,
are they no longer capable of doing anything without hands on support?
What happens when the current Leaders move on and these young people are
expected to take over the Leadership roles will they have to bring their
Grannies?
--
Paul Harris
GAGS
>
> the problem is having the time to run the training sessions...
One simply has to make the time or allow for the time.
I would expect preparation time to be anywhere between 10 - 20 hours
depending on abilities.
One could do this over say two weekends and maybe an evening or two,
or over four or five evenings and a weekend or two weekend days.
You either build this timetable into your programme - easier to do
maybe if you have small troop or additional hands to help or you add
it on as an addition to the rest of the programme.
In some cases you make have to postpone other programme elements to
incorporate this.
Granted it's unlikely that someone who is only able to commit to the
ususal 2h a week is going to be able to do it easily, but your
average leader should be able to find time to pencil it in
occasionally.
>
> i have the skills to teach the badge... most leaders locally probably
> don't.
That isn't a particularly complimentary remark about your fellow local
leaders! Some may say it might even be a tadge condescending.
So how many of your fellow leaders will be experienced to assist in
the planning, management and running of an expedition in WC?
Er...hold on....the expedition doesn't have to take place in WC. (And
no SBR I don't mean the public conveniences in the middle of town!) In
fact the overwhelming majority of these expeditions should take place
in non-WC (T0).
But still, could they run an expedition in unfamiliar country?
Er...hold on...the expedition doesn't have to take place in unfamiliar
country. I would suggest it does as this helps with the challenge
aspect, but it does depend on the skills and circumstances of those
involved. Provided one hasn't done lots of day walks round one's
locale there should be something not too far away that is reasonably
unfamiliar but not wildly out-of-this-world and beyond average
capabilities.
It should be an achievable challenge.
But what about camping aspects? Could your fellow leaders lead wild
camps and could they teach how to forage for food and cook over open
fires?
Er..hold on...it's not a wild camp and the food/provisions and cooking
doesn't have to be at 'survival camp' level/rations. Doesn't say you
have to camp at level 3. Doesn't say you have to use homemade
bivouacs. Doesn't say you need survival techniques. Simple 2-man hike
tents, trangia/gas stove cooking, simple meals (can be prepared in
advance or just simply boil-in-bag or dehydrated), etc. not really
talking major camping skills here.
But can your fellow leaders handle a whole weekend hike over such
distances?
Er...hold on...it's not a whole weekend (Fri night - Sunday eve), just
two days. And it's not a great distance (Area 1 anyway).Four hours
travelling by hiking is 12 miles or thereabouts. 25 miles for the
weekend is not a mega-expedition.
But what about the high-level of map-reading/navigation skills
involved?
Er...hold on....the level of skills doesn't have to be that high.
Simple map-reading skills (e.g. setting/orienting map, use of linear
features/handrails, knowledge of scale, symbols, simple estimation of
time distance, etc) will suffice. Most of these expeditions should
take place in feature-rich country - so the Flow Country in Caithness
is out! - where relocation, if necessary, is easily done.
Don't forget that the challenge does not proscribe waymarked routes,
part of a national or local trail for instance, would be okay.
(Even with waymarking you still have to read a map! I can recall doing
ODP back when I was 17 and even now I'd say it was one of the hardest
map-reading walks I've ever done.)
The absolute maximum level of challenge here need not be any higher
than that demanded for the DofE Bronze expedition award.
Some leaders may have a few rusty skills but many will not be totally
devoid of them. In my time I found more leaders lacking just a little
self-confidence in their abilities.
>
> we ran 5 training sessions (whole days or afternoons with me walking
> with them for 2 hikes and them walking by themselves via me on bases
> for the next three. that is am awful lot of time to dedicate to it...
Were 5 hikes needed? Depends I suppose on the participants. Were you
doing skills training as you hiked?
I would suggest that 2 practice hikes at most would be needed for your
average ability participants - one may have an accompanying and
interacting leader of about half-day distance and the other of a full
day distance with no accompanying leader but interaction from them
from time to time. These should be done in terrain similar to the
expedition terrain.
Sometimes I've seen leaders overdo the training and preparation.
Meeting and experiencing the unknown is part of the challenge. These
can often be the most exciting parts of the trip. Some leaders need to
leave some of the cotton wool at home. Kids of 12/13 are very
resourceful and in many circumstances can well look after themselves.
Sure I'd expect you'd have kittens if you're sending the kids on a 40-
miler over the Flow country (but a DC's not going to let you do that
anyway!)
As far as purpose/projects are concerned these can be varied and wide-
ranging. E.g.:
1. Simple photographic record of route.
2. Natural history studies along route.
3. Landscape studies/records geography/geology e.g. one year I had
some scouts do simple geology of shropshire hills.
4. Historical sites study, e.g. another year I had some scouts do iron
age hill forts.
5. River canal path/bank study, e.g. another year I had scouts
recording aspects of tourism on part of Llangollen canal.
6. Waymarked trail study, e.g. another year I had them studying
waymarking, route choice, facilities, path/stile conditions way down
along the Sandstone trail in Cheshire (?) reporting findings to the
local footpath officer. Another year on a coastal path they did some
simple sand dune studies
Etc.
It doesn't have to be terribly difficult. Option 1, for example, is
not hard - point and shoot with a camera, edit collection, present to
troop/parents/agm, etc.
It's not rocket science.
GAGS
GAGS
wrote:
>
> My thouights exactly but many leaders seem to be put off by what they see as
> difficult skillls to aquire. Some seem to think its just a watered down QSA
> expedition, but its not.
Of course it isn't!
Jeez Louise. If someone is looking for a 'comparable standard' then
the absolute maximum to compare against is the DofE Bronze expedition.
Maximum!
>
> In practice they need to know a bit about maps (it actually says follow the
> journey, not naviagte)
??
To journey you need to navigate!
What you don't need are higher level navigation skills. I would
suggest: simple use of a 1:25 000 Explorer series map; 6 fig-grid
references; appreciation of scale and calculation of distance (and
time); knowledge of symbols/features; orientate the map using sight
and compass; use of handrails (linear features) to navigate; simple
appreciation of gradient/slope/contours; simple route planning and
relocation.
(Anyone at NNAS Bronze standard should be able to teach these. (http://
www.nnas.org.uk/nnas_scheme/syllabus/NNAS-bronze-award.shtml)
> how to cook and how to carry out a project.
Simple cooking on a simple trangia or gas stove. Cordon-bleu/Michelin
standard not required.
Project does not have to be War & Peace size, detailed, earth-
shattering. (I've suggested some elsewhere).
>
> They don't need to know how to
> use a compass,
But I suggest they do but not to any huge degree of skills. Simple use
to orientate a map is probably the most useful and only really
necessary skill at this standard.
So they do need to know a little.
> a tent,
If they are camping, I would suggest they at least know how to put one
up and take it down again!
So they do need to know a little.
(But if they're not camping then they don't need to know.)
> a trangia,
If they are camping I would suggest they do need to know how to cook a
simple meal - spam and beans even! - or boil-in-the-bag or dehydrated.
So they do need to know a little.
(But if they're not camping then they don't need to know.)
> or anything
> else that I woudl expect on an ES expedition,
Well there is some similarity of sorts.
I would expect those 'skills' mentioned above to be a maximum for a
scout expeidtion but a minimum for an explorer expedition.
> but that message isn't getting
> across.
I think some may be trying to do too much.
:-(
GAGS
Chris.5th
> On 17 Aug, 15:38, "Chris.5th" <ch...@elmer.me.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > the problem is having the time to run the training sessions...
>
> One simply has to make the time or allow for the time.
i did. not everybody can. some leaders really are 2hrs/week
>
> I would expect preparation time to be anywhere between 10 - 20 hours
> depending on abilities.
ish... i'd go at the top end of this and then some... i would hate to
set kids off on an expedition wherei think they will fail.
>
> One could do this over say two weekends and maybe an evening or two,
> or over four or five evenings and a weekend or two weekend days.
>
no. i expect more than this... despite my best efforts... my 13 yr
olds cannot take a bearing, cannot read a map and are generally crap.
This is depsite occasional sessions at scouts and occasional hikes.
perhaps that reflects on my programme. i can handle that.
> You either build this timetable into your programme - easier to do
> maybe if you have small troop or additional hands to help or you add
> it on as an addition to the rest of the programme.
>
i have a large troop and almost no additional hands.
> In some cases you make have to postpone other programme elements to
> incorporate this.
>
yes. but the reason i still have a large group of 13 and 14 yr olds is
because i do the other programme elements!
> Granted it's unlikely that someone who is only able to commit to the
> ususal 2h a week is going to be able to do it easily, but your
> average leader should be able to find time to pencil it in
> occasionally.
>
that'd be nice. i am the only troop in the district that awards the
chief scouts gold award. i know the expedition is not compulsory, but
you get the idea.
>
>
> > i have the skills to teach the badge... most leaders locally probably
> > don't.
>
> That isn't a particularly complimentary remark about your fellow local
> leaders! Some may say it might even be a tadge condescending.
>
agreed. but it's also true... even on the footpaths around biggin
hill, one needs a decent level of skill to take bearings, read maps
and not get lost at the corner of every field.
> So how many of your fellow leaders will be experienced to assist in
> the planning, management and running of an expedition in WC?
>
WC? wilderness country... not really an option for me... wild
country?
> Er...hold on....the expedition doesn't have to take place in WC. (And
> no SBR I don't mean the public conveniences in the middle of town!) In
> fact the overwhelming majority of these expeditions should take place
> in non-WC (T0).
>
> But still, could they run an expedition in unfamiliar country?
>
> Er...hold on...the expedition doesn't have to take place in unfamiliar
> country. I would suggest it does as this helps with the challenge
> aspect, but it does depend on the skills and circumstances of those
> involved. Provided one hasn't done lots of day walks round one's
> locale there should be something not too far away that is reasonably
> unfamiliar but not wildly out-of-this-world and beyond average
> capabilities.
>
> It should be an achievable challenge.
>
agreed
> But what about camping aspects? Could your fellow leaders lead wild
> camps and could they teach how to forage for food and cook over open
> fires?
>
> Er..hold on...it's not a wild camp and the food/provisions and cooking
> doesn't have to be at 'survival camp' level/rations. Doesn't say you
> have to camp at level 3. Doesn't say you have to use homemade
> bivouacs. Doesn't say you need survival techniques. Simple 2-man hike
> tents, trangia/gas stove cooking, simple meals (can be prepared in
> advance or just simply boil-in-bag or dehydrated), etc. not really
> talking major camping skills here.
>
but do the eaders have the motivation to buy the tents, buy the stoves
etc. i did... i now lend them to ESUs for DofE... i don't think many
troops locally have the kit for an expedition even!
> But can your fellow leaders handle a whole weekend hike over such
> distances?
>
> Er...hold on...it's not a whole weekend (Fri night - Sunday eve), just
> two days. And it's not a great distance (Area 1 anyway).Four hours
> travelling by hiking is 12 miles or thereabouts. 25 miles for the
> weekend is not a mega-expedition.
>
nope... it's not.
> But what about the high-level of map-reading/navigation skills
> involved?
>
> Er...hold on....the level of skills doesn't have to be that high.
> Simple map-reading skills (e.g. setting/orienting map, use of linear
> features/handrails, knowledge of scale, symbols, simple estimation of
> time distance, etc) will suffice. Most of these expeditions should
> take place in feature-rich country - so the Flow Country in Caithness
> is out! - where relocation, if necessary, is easily done.
>
i camped at downe recently... another leader was there... he wanted to
walk to an animal sanctuary. he'd printed off a google map and was
going to walk along the road to get the to the sanctuary. He did not
know that there were websites that offered OS maps, he would not have
been able to read the map once he'd got it and he had zero idea there
was a lovely footpath that took him straight to his destination.
there are massive skills gaps locally.
> Don't forget that the challenge does not proscribe waymarked routes,
> part of a national or local trail for instance, would be okay.
>
definitely
> (Even with waymarking you still have to read a map! I can recall doing
> ODP back when I was 17 and even now I'd say it was one of the hardest
> map-reading walks I've ever done.)
>
> The absolute maximum level of challenge here need not be any higher
> than that demanded for the DofE Bronze expedition award.
>
agreed... and it can be much less.
> Some leaders may have a few rusty skills but many will not be totally
> devoid of them. In my time I found more leaders lacking just a little
> self-confidence in their abilities.
>
probably true...
>
>
> > we ran 5 training sessions (whole days or afternoons with me walking
> > with them for 2 hikes and them walking by themselves via me on bases
> > for the next three. that is am awful lot of time to dedicate to it...
>
> Were 5 hikes needed? Depends I suppose on the participants. Were you
> doing skills training as you hiked?
>
first 2 hikes? yes... we did skill straining. next 32 were offered as
we were also fitting in around sports teams etc.
> I would suggest that 2 practice hikes at most would be needed for your
> average ability participants - one may have an accompanying and
> interacting leader of about half-day distance and the other of a full
> day distance with no accompanying leader but interaction from them
> from time to time. These should be done in terrain similar to the
> expedition terrain.
>
possibly... perhaps i'm a bad teacher... it took longer than that to
embed the knowledge and get them walking skillfully.
> Sometimes I've seen leaders overdo the training and preparation.
> Meeting and experiencing the unknown is part of the challenge. These
> can often be the most exciting parts of the trip. Some leaders need to
> leave some of the cotton wool at home. Kids of 12/13 are very
> resourceful and in many circumstances can well look after themselves.
> Sure I'd expect you'd have kittens if you're sending the kids on a 40-
> miler over the Flow country (but a DC's not going to let you do that
> anyway!)
>
the challenge was:
get to station.. train to another station
walk via 5 GRs and get the phone numbers off phone boxes.
camp at downe
walk on to westerham via more phone boxes...
bus home.
i looked in on them for 3 minutes in the evening. they were v well.
they did a report each at the end of it... parts of it are hysterical.
> As far as purpose/projects are concerned these can be varied and wide-
> ranging. E.g.:
>
> 1. Simple photographic record of route.
> 2. Natural history studies along route.
> 3. Landscape studies/records geography/geology e.g. one year I had
> some scouts do simple geology of shropshire hills.
> 4. Historical sites study, e.g. another year I had some scouts do iron
> age hill forts.
> 5. River canal path/bank study, e.g. another year I had scouts
> recording aspects of tourism on part of Llangollen canal.
> 6. Waymarked trail study, e.g. another year I had them studying
> waymarking, route choice, facilities, path/stile conditions way down
> along the Sandstone trail in Cheshire (?) reporting findings to the
> local footpath officer. Another year on a coastal path they did some
> simple sand dune studies
>
> Etc.
>
> It doesn't have to be terribly difficult. Option 1, for example, is
> not hard - point and shoot with a camera, edit collection, present to
> troop/parents/agm, etc.
>
> It's not rocket science.
>
no... and my purpose was rather naff compared. it was rustled up at
the last minute as the original plan (to be part of a challenge hike)
had to be cancelled due to a dropout through sickness
> GAGS
we pretty much agree!
GAGS
> On 24 Aug, 13:40, GAGS <gags...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> > On 17 Aug, 15:38, "Chris.5th" <ch...@elmer.me.uk> wrote:
> > One simply has to make the time or allow for the time.
>
> i did. not everybody can. some leaders really are 2hrs/week
>
>
> > I would expect preparation time to be anywhere between 10 - 20 hours
> > depending on abilities.
>
> ish... i'd go at the top end of this and then some... i would hate to
> set kids off on an expedition wherei think they will fail.
I really think 20h should be enough, but kids, troops, learning
expereinces differ.
As regards failing, well some may but every challenge should be
appropriate and achievable. If you think a party will fail then they
shouldn't go.
>
> > One could do this over say two weekends and maybe an evening or two,
> > or over four or five evenings and a weekend or two weekend days.
>
> no. i expect more than this... despite my best efforts... my 13 yr
> olds cannot take a bearing, cannot read a map and are generally crap.
> This is depsite occasional sessions at scouts and occasional hikes.
Wow. Maybe you need to look at your training programme and methods.
There are many different ways to teach navigation. A 13 yo scout
should be able to take a simple bearing. Maybe you're trying to do too
much? Do they know which is left and which is right? (Sounds a daft
question but give some kids a simple grid-like course and they'll get
lost!)
Have you tried following an established navigation training programme?
(For example YNAS/NNAS: http://www.nnas.org.uk/ynsa_scheme/young-navigator-star-awar.shtml)
>
> perhaps that reflects on my programme. i can handle that.
I'm sure it doesn't!
Sometimes though one needs to look at a wide range of training
resources. When I was in scouting I used to start off navigation in
Cubs with an orienteering based approach and build up from there. By
13/14 in Scouts the kids were up to YNAS Gold. And the 14-16 yo (when
that range was in scouts) were up to NNAS Bronze and one or two
knocking on NNAS Silver award door.
>
> > You either build this timetable into your programme - easier to do
> > maybe if you have small troop or additional hands to help or you add
> > it on as an addition to the rest of the programme.
>
> i have a large troop and almost no additional hands.
Ah, that's a problem.
>
> > In some cases you make have to postpone other programme elements to
> > incorporate this.
>
> yes. but the reason i still have a large group of 13 and 14 yr olds is
> because i do the other programme elements!
Obviously if they're not wanting to do the EC but rather other award
elements then it's quite hard.
>
> > Granted it's unlikely that someone who is only able to commit to the
> > ususal 2h a week is going to be able to do it easily, but your
> > average leader should be able to find time to pencil it in
> > occasionally.
>
> that'd be nice. i am the only troop in the district that awards the
> chief scouts gold award. i know the expedition is not compulsory, but
> you get the idea.
Not compulsory? You mean it can be optioned out. IIRC, if one chooses
not to do Adventure or Outdoor+ then it is compulsory for the CSGA.
The Adventure tends to be the most popular of the 3, ime, then it's a
toss-up - a camping troop will lean towards O+, while a hiking troop
(like mine was) will lean towards EC.
> > > i have the skills to teach the badge... most leaders locally probably
> > > don't.
>
> > That isn't a particularly complimentary remark about your fellow local
> > leaders! Some may say it might even be a tadge condescending.
>
> agreed. but it's also true... even on the footpaths around biggin
> hill, one needs a decent level of skill to take bearings, read maps
> and not get lost at the corner of every field.
Coming from Hexham (well that's where I was last Friday) I don't
really know that area. You need the same level of skill to take
bearings wherever you are. I would suggest that the navigation issues
in that area result from it being very feature-rich.
(Very feature-poor areas such as moors present one set of problems -
finding features to aid navigation! Very feature-rich areas present
the opposite - too many confusing features to aid navigation. The
easiest terrain is somewhere in between.)
The skill there then is to be able to focus on primary aids and
distinguish and weed out secondary confusing aids. Orienting the map,
ground-to-map features, collecting features are the main skills.
Bearings really are mainly for feature-poor (or visibility poor)
areas.
>
> > So how many of your fellow leaders will be experienced to assist in
> > the planning, management and running of an expedition in WC?
>
> WC? wilderness country... not really an option for me... wild
> country?
WC = wild country. (Except round Gillingham where I believe it means
toilets.)
> snip points that say don't go OTT in this challenge.
>
> > It should be an achievable challenge.
>
> agreed
>
> > But what about camping aspects?
. snip
>
> but do the eaders have the motivation to buy the tents, buy the stoves
> etc. i did... i now lend them to ESUs for DofE... i don't think many
> troops locally have the kit for an expedition even!
What the 'eck are they doing!!?
You're not talking about a great deal of kit to do expeditions. Most
average sized troops should be able to afford and equip themselves.
You don't need £300 hike tents. You don't need £70 trangias. You don't
need hand-printed, laminated, mega-scale maps; what's an OS explorer
these days £7 or thereabouts? You don't need £80 sighting compasses.
Etc.
I could kit out 5/6 pairs with basic expedition stuff (tents, cooking,
accessories, maps, compasses, etc) for £500-600 tops.
And I could get that money from a couple of fund-raisers and an extra
£1 on subs.
No big deal.
WTF are these troops without doing?
I recall one troop I went in to rescue. They had very little
expedition kit, but had loads of standing camp equipment. With few
leaders and me at the time not able to commit loads - especially to a
long standing camp - I suggested selling the camping kit and using the
proceeds to buy expedition kit. Oh you should've heard the uproar! 'We
need that kit for annual camp', they said. 'When did you last have an
annual or anything longer than a weekend camp', I said. 6 years
before. Nuff said. 'But we lend it out every year to the church for
its summer fete!' 'And how much do we charge?' I asked. 'Oh we don't
charge them for it, never had, plus we also pay for the insurance!' so
I said: 'Ok, next year we'll ask them for £300 for hire.' They said;
'No.' The DC found out about my plans to sell and warned me not to
sell it: 'It is useful kit, excellent camping equipment, and much in
need. It could be used by others in the district. etc'. I asked her:
'How much will you give us for lending it?'. She said: 'That's not the
point. It's scouting equipment. Don't sell it.'
I went to the GEC. Argued my point. 2 marquees which no one knew how
to put up. Which no one in the group had transport to move them any
distance. Which, even if we tried to put them up, no one would help. I
won a motion to sell by 2 votes. Two weeks later most of the stuff was
sold. (We had enough equipment for a 2-patrol standing camp left.) I
had £4k in the group account. 2-weeks later we had 7 (pairs)
expedition kits - lightweight tents, trangias, etc. 6 months later we
had 7 teams in a county hiking competition and trophies for their
success. The DC congratulated us on success and she asked us where we
got all the kit from. I told her straight. She did not reply.
>
> > Er...hold on...it's not a whole weekend (Fri night - Sunday eve), just
> > two days. And it's not a great distance (Area 1 anyway).Four hours
> > travelling by hiking is 12 miles or thereabouts. 25 miles for the
> > weekend is not a mega-expedition.
>
> nope... it's not.
And in some respects the leader time in excess of the '2h/week only'
is not that much more certainly compared to the time needed maybe for
the adventure or outdoor plus challenges.
>
> > But what about the high-level of map-reading/navigation skills
> > involved?
>
> > Er...hold on....the level of skills doesn't have to be that high.
> > Simple map-reading skills (e.g. setting/orienting map, use of linear
> > features/handrails, knowledge of scale, symbols, simple estimation of
> > time distance, etc) will suffice. Most of these expeditions should
> > take place in feature-rich country - so the Flow Country in Caithness
> > is out! - where relocation, if necessary, is easily done.
>
> i camped at downe recently... another leader was there... he wanted to
> walk to an animal sanctuary. he'd printed off a google map and was
> going to walk along the road to get the to the sanctuary. He did not
> know that there were websites that offered OS maps, he would not have
> been able to read the map once he'd got it and he had zero idea there
> was a lovely footpath that took him straight to his destination.
Cheapskate. An OS explorer cost what, £7 or thereabouts?
Jeez Louise.
Time we introduced basic skills tests and/or training for leaders?
At each review a leader should be able to show they can pass the 'I am
not a prat' test.
>
> there are massive skills gaps locally.
Then someone needs to fill them quickly. Mr/Mrs DC get off your arse!
>
> > Don't forget that the challenge does not proscribe waymarked routes,
> > part of a national or local trail for instance, would be okay.
>
> definitely
I can recall setting a weekend hiking challenge for my explorers (at
the time i was doing that section) who were all 14-15 and new. It was
described by me as a man-to-man hike. Lightweight kit only. No tents
or cooking gear. Navigation was straight-forward as there was a
constant 'signpost' along the route. There was a photographic project/
record to do for a presentation sometime afterwards. Start and route a
mystery until the day. They had 2-week meets to prepare/revise
navigation. It was obvious they guessed that it was to be done in
pairs (man to man!)
Friday night the 14 of them were loaded into parent's cars and driven
off to manchester city centre.
Erm....Mr Explorer leader, why are we in city centre manchester? There
aren't any hikes/expeditions round here?
Night in YHA in manchester. Up early next day for hike along Rochdale
Canal to mankinholes near todmorden. (ah man to man! I see it now.)
Overnight in mankinholes YHA, finished next day with an easy bit to
Sowerby Bridge. 35 miles.
Photo presentation on industrial archaeology through the ages.
Would be a bit too long for a scout expedition challenge, but the idea
for an expedition doesn't have to be too different.
>
> > (Even with waymarking you still have to read a map! I can recall doing
> > ODP back when I was 17 and even now I'd say it was one of the hardest
> > map-reading walks I've ever done.)
>
> > The absolute maximum level of challenge here need not be any higher
> > than that demanded for the DofE Bronze expedition award.
>
> agreed... and it can be much less.
Appropriate for those taking part. It should be challenging but
achievable.
>
> > Some leaders may have a few rusty skills but many will not be totally
> > devoid of them. In my time I found more leaders lacking just a little
> > self-confidence in their abilities.
>
> probably true...
Definitely true! :-)
>
> snip
> possibly... perhaps i'm a bad teacher... it took longer than that to
> embed the knowledge and get them walking skillfully.
No I'm sure you're not! You may just need to look at doing some things
with some kids differently.
Sometimes I think some SLs jump in to navigation at too high an entry
level where 6-fig grid refernces and compass bearings are introduced
within the first three or four sessions. And I still meet SLs who
believe that a compass is a primary navigation tool and the first
thing to pack into their expedition kit. Jeez Louise!
>
> > Sometimes I've seen leaders overdo the training and preparation.
> > Meeting and experiencing the unknown is part of the challenge. These
> > can often be the most exciting parts of the trip. Some leaders need to
> > leave some of the cotton wool at home. Kids of 12/13 are very
> > resourceful and in many circumstances can well look after themselves.
> > Sure I'd expect you'd have kittens if you're sending the kids on a 40-
> > miler over the Flow country (but a DC's not going to let you do that
> > anyway!)
>
> the challenge was:
>
> get to station.. train to another station
>
> walk via 5 GRs and get the phone numbers off phone boxes.
And at the phone boxes did they have to call in with a message such
as: 'The 6 hens have laid 4 eggs, but the cockerel has only one leg'?
:-)
>
> camp at downe
Okay. Have they been there before?
>
> walk on to westerham via more phone boxes...
And any more secret messages to pass on!!?
>
> bus home.
Oh the old 246 eh! Exciting!!
>
> i looked in on them for 3 minutes in the evening. they were v well.
>
> they did a report each at the end of it... parts of it are hysterical.
I'm sure it was and I'm sure they enjoyed the expedition.
Not so sure that my (ex-) lot would have done so.
Visiting phone boxes sounds really exciting. Not.
How far did they walk that weekend?
>
> no... and my purpose was rather naff compared. it was rustled up at
> the last minute as the original plan (to be part of a challenge hike)
> had to be cancelled due to a dropout through sickness
>
I would've thought something such as a Thames Path walk for example
would be ideal. Say from the estuary at Crayford (at the end of the
Thames Path extension) to Greenwich (about 15 miles distant?) for an
overnighter. Must be something round there to put you up in. (No need
for tents then.) Then on next day to HP/Westminster bridge to finish.
Must be about 25-28 miles in total. Flat. Not too much trouble with
navigation. As regards projects, take your pick! The river, thames
barrier, woolwich arsenal, greenwich, etc. Sounds great to me.
GAGS
Stephen Rainsbury
>>Long ago when I did my Duke of Edinburgh's award, it was part of the
>>expedition planning (by the participants) to come up with a purpose.
Fot teh scout exp challenge (type 2) , I would expect them to come up with a
purpose and then plan the trip round it.
> Now it seems that there is no longer a need to think for ones self,
> someone else will tell you where to go and what to do and will virtually
> come with you and never be very far away to make sure that you are OK.
DofE allows you to do that, IMHO its the fear of litigation that gets LEAs
to nanny everybody.
> Don't we trust them any more, are they no longer capable of doing anything
> without hands on support?
Yes, and get hurt, but thats the whole point reallty.
Stephen Rainsbury
>ish... i'd go at the top end of this and then some... i would hate to
>set kids off on an expedition wherei think they will fail.
It didn't bother me, I told one group they wre not ready, but they knew
better, I was just being an old got and saying it to be difficult. They
failed. I wasn't bothered about it, they had learnt a lesson.
two weeks later they did it again, after some more practice and passed.
I was pelased until I found out that they didn't want to but their parents
bribed the with new phones and PS3 games. It seems they thought I was being
too harsh to fail them....
No I wasn't. If it takes you 5 hours to cover 5km, and you end up in totaly
the wrong place then you don't deserve to pass.
> It's not rocket science.
Shame I can do that :-)
Stephen Rainsbury
news:0aea65ab-af52-4628...@k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
On 17 Aug, 22:41, "Stephen Rainsbury" <nos...@rainsbury.net.text>
wrote:
>Jeez Louise. If someone is looking for a 'comparable standard' then
>the absolute maximum to compare against is the DofE Bronze expedition.
>Maximum!
Absolutly, but the important thing is that it is relevant to them, and not
something bigger watered down.
I realy prefer the 90 minut6es journey and explore an location option
because they can plan and do that by themsleves and less help from adults.
Paul Harris
Rainsbury <nos...@rainsbury.net.text> writes
>> someone else will tell you where to go and what to do and will virtually
>> come with you and never be very far away to make sure that you are OK.
>
>DofE allows you to do that, IMHO its the fear of litigation that gets LEAs
>to nanny everybody.
>
will have to survive in the real world one day so the sooner they start
to gain their independence the better.
>> Don't we trust them any more, are they no longer capable of doing anything
>> without hands on support?
>
>Yes, and get hurt, but thats the whole point reallty.
>
With proper training they shouldn't get hurt but if they do they must
learn that we all get some knocks in life and have to learn to roll with
the punches.
--
Paul Harris
Stephen Rainsbury
> If they are properly trained they should be capable of doing it, they will
> have to survive in the real world one day so the sooner they start to gain
> their independence the better.
Agreed but many of the leaders, especially teachers, seem more concerned
about anything happening on their watch.
As an ESL yo are trained to let go and help them go into teh big world, as
ateacher you are trained to "scaffold" them as long as they are in your
class. Exam gradesare teh end result, what happens next is not your problem.
> With proper training they shouldn't get hurt but if they do they must
> learn that we all get some knocks in life and have to learn to roll with
> the punches.
Agreed.
Paul Harris
Rainsbury <nos...@rainsbury.net.text> writes
>"Paul Harris" <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
>news:uKGvZuMZ...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
>
>> If they are properly trained they should be capable of doing it, they will
>> have to survive in the real world one day so the sooner they start to gain
>> their independence the better.
>
>Agreed but many of the leaders, especially teachers, seem more concerned
>about anything happening on their watch.
>
difficulty is that if they are never allowed to encounter risk for real
they are going to be unable to form a proper evaluation of it and make
sound decisions when the time comes for them to be set free in the big
bad world. The Teachers may be covering their own watch but they are
not teaching the pupils life skills although perhaps that is not a part
of the curriculum.
--
Paul Harris
Stephen Rainsbury
> bad world. The Teachers may be covering their own watch but they are not
> teaching the pupils life skills although perhaps that is not a part of the
> curriculum.
Tottaly. Its not on the league tables.
Paul Harris
Rainsbury <nos...@rainsbury.net.text> writes
>"Paul Harris" <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
>news:bxRSn3RG...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
>
>> bad world. The Teachers may be covering their own watch but they are not
>> teaching the pupils life skills although perhaps that is not a part of the
>> curriculum.
>
>Tottaly. Its not on the league tables.
>
understandably tend to just focus on what is on them.
--
Paul Harris
GAGS
wrote:
> >>expedition planning (by the participants) to come up with a purpose.
>
> Fot teh scout exp challenge (type 2) , I would expect them to come up with a
> purpose and then plan the trip round it.
That's in the requirements so no expectation needed. JFDI!
Do remember that the type 2 challenge - 'exploration' - should not be
an 'easier' option than the type 1 - 'expedition'; the expectation
should be that they can plan an expedition to the same degree/standard
as an exploration.
>
> > Now it seems that there is no longer a need to think for ones self,
> > someone else will tell you where to go and what to do and will virtually
> > come with you and never be very far away to make sure that you are OK.
>
> DofE allows you to do that,
Yes and no.
Expeditions must be unaccompanied and candidates must be self-reliant.
A leader in the area is okay, but any decent assessor will/should fail
candidates who are being closely shadowed. The last part of your
statement is a little harsh.
However, as far as candidates thinking for themselves and playing a
100% role in the planning stage, you are quite correct. The
(overwhelming) majority of expeditions nowadays, especially at bronze
and silver, are effectively 'planned' by leaders. It's leaders who
choose the area to go to; it's leaders who largely choose the routes;
it's leaders who choose the camp sites and mode/style of camping; it's
leaders who choose the project, if any. Etc. If some say my use of
'choose' is a little harsh on leaders and that the leaders don't do
everything and the kids do something, then okay use 'direct' or
'strongly influence' instead.
It is clearly the case in the vast majority of schools these days. I
already know a local school's expedition area, route, camp sites,
distance and I haven't even spoken to any of the kids involved because
I don't know them. So how do I know? Well I can read all the details
in a 'come and try it'/planning letter sent out by the school!
And here's where you're wrong.
The DofE do NOT allow you to do that. And where does it say that? Look
here:
Of course what the DofE say and what the OA groups do are two
different things. And I'm sure the DofE won't crack down on this
'abuse' because it'll harm its numbers. (It cracks down on blatant
abuse where the kids input really is zero, but not where the kids have
done something, even if that something is only plotting grid
references from a leader list on to a map.)
> IMHO its the fear of litigation that gets LEAs
> to nanny everybody.
Yes there is that in large doses as people look to cover their backs
first, however, I think it's the rapidly spreading risk averse culture
that is the major factor. Schools really do want to give a guarantee
of safe from harm (any harm!) to parents. And equally many parents
demand it as well.
Many shools are also quite happy to only trust in their own very
narrow-minded risk assessments which have practically no elements of
risk included anyway!
Tell a teacher that people get killed going up Snowdon, for example,
and they'll absurdly think that it will apply to going up on the train
in the middle of summer.
I can recall a school's head of science asking me for ideas on Earth
Science activities. I suggested a mine/quarry outing/'visit as at the
time I was writing some educational material. When I said that the
kids like wearing hard hats, lamps, high vis jackets she asked me why
they had to wear these things. (Did she not know why?) She nearly had
kittens when I said: Erm....because a quarry/mine can potentially be a
dangerous place! You could just see her having visions of kids being
killed in crushers or under the wheels of trucks or an earthquake
triggering massive landslides to bury them under millions of tons of
rock. Messing about in quarries/mines is dangerous but if you follow
the rules, take precautions, wear the right equipment, and know what
you're doing then it's no more dangerous than crossing a very busy
road.
No wonder parents don't trust teachers too if they're so risk averse
they actually have no notion of risk at all.
>
> > Don't we trust them any more, are they no longer capable of doing anything
> > without hands on support?
Lack of trust in some quarters is pandemic.
>
> Yes, and get hurt, but thats the whole point reallty.
>
The fear of anyone getting hurt causes so much anxiety in the teaching
profession it's no wonder they have high rates of absence.
But there again there are many parents who see an accident happening
to their kids (with no more than bruises or such like as a result) and
they immediately think jackpot from the £millions in damages.
(Actually it shows just how sick parts of society are when they can
only think of riches resulting from harm being done to their kids.)
GAGS
GAGS
wrote:
> "Paul Harris" <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
>
> news:uKGvZuMZ...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
>
> > If they are properly trained they should be capable of doing it, they will
> > have to survive in the real world one day so the sooner they start to gain
> > their independence the better.
>
> Agreed but many of the leaders, especially teachers, seem more concerned
> about anything happening on their watch.
Which is only natural and to be expected. It's how they respond and
the actions they take to ensure that the risk of anything happening on
their watch is low/negligible. Many though will not accept any risk
and opt to do nothing.
>
> As an ESL yo are trained to let go and help them go into teh big world, as
> ateacher you are trained to "scaffold" them as long as they are in your
> class.
I think that's a bit too simple. There are some schools who do educate
kids about the big wide world. The are some ESLs who are risk averse.
The problem of us becoming more risk averse is a societal one and not
something largely confined to one sector.
Parents are equally guilty of handing out the cotton-wool.
> Exam gradesare teh end result, what happens next is not your problem.
That's simply because exam grades are the be all and end all. How good
a teacher is is measured by the grades achieved by their pupils. I
know a school where this week and last the kids will have acheived
very high grades and no doubt have cemented the school's place in the
top 3 in the local league tables. However, most of the teachers are
nothing special and a few are poor in some areas. How come? The kids
are above average ability to start with and the exams are dumbed down.
Teachers don't have to do a great deal to get them to pass exams.
>
> > With proper training they shouldn't get hurt but if they do they must
> > learn that we all get some knocks in life and have to learn to roll with
> > the punches.
>
> Agreed.
Some will never learn.
GAGS
GAGS
> In message <xJimm.73350$OO7.41...@text.news.virginmedia.com>, Stephen
> Rainsbury <nos...@rainsbury.net.text> writes>"Paul Harris" <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> >news:uKGvZuMZ...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
>
> >> If they are properly trained they should be capable of doing it, they will
> >> have to survive in the real world one day so the sooner they start to gain
> >> their independence the better.
>
> >Agreed but many of the leaders, especially teachers, seem more concerned
> >about anything happening on their watch.
>
> We come back to being risk adverse rather than risk aware. The
> difficulty is that if they are never allowed to encounter risk for real
> they are going to be unable to form a proper evaluation of it and make
> sound decisions when the time comes for them to be set free in the big
> bad world.
And many people think that this risk adverse culture is propagated
through to the kids so that they too become risk adverse.
Actually there's anecdotal evidence to suggest that risk averse
teachers actually create risk ignorant kids. Denied of experiencing
risk in small measured and controlled doses in their youth, many kids
grow up to take more risks from dangerous driving to drug taking to
alcohol abuse, etc.
> The Teachers may be covering their own watch but they are
> not teaching the pupils life skills although perhaps that is not a part
> of the curriculum.
It is part of the curriculum, but it's not uppermost in many's
thoughts.
Good life skills don't get you into Oxford or Cambridge.
(Yes they do help to keep you there safely, but that's ignored!)
Mummy and daddy need you to get 6 GCEs (5 at A grade) and 16 GCSEs (12
at A* and the rest A). That's all that matters.
GAGS
Stephen Rainsbury
>However, as far as candidates thinking for themselves and playing a
>100% role in the planning stage, you are quite correct. The
>(overwhelming) majority of expeditions nowadays, especially at bronze
>and silver, are effectively 'planned' by leaders. It's leaders who
...
I agree but to fit everything in to the weekends available you end up doing
them in batches, ie each assessor taking two teams, which really means
picking the area, and inevitably that limits you to camp site options. In
Kent we try to spread them round a camp site, Ross Wood and Buckmore Park
are ideal for this, but sadly Broadstone warren insisted that they were all
on one, quite small pitch. Grate for meeting other ES, but not exactly what
we had in mind.
>The DofE do NOT allow you to do that. And where does it say that? Look
>here:
>http://www.dofe.org/en/content/cms/Doing_your_DofE/Your_DofE_programme/Sections/Expedition/20_conditions/20_conditions.aspx
We have that on the unit noticeboard and it is a bit of a mantra, but if I
have three teams all wanting to do an expedition I can't get three weekends
for practices and another three for assessed expedition, they will have to
go at the same time to the same area or it can't happen.
> And equally many parents demand it as well.
Tell me about it. You should have# heard the comments when I set "design a
nuclear fission bomb" as a homework.
>Many shools are also quite happy to only trust in their own very
>narrow-minded risk assessments which have practically no elements of
>risk included anyway!
The LEA has templates.
>But there again there are many parents who see an accident happening
>to their kids (with no more than bruises or such like as a result) and
>they immediately think jackpot from the �millions in damages.
>(Actually it shows just how sick parts of society are when they can
>only think of riches resulting from harm being done to their kids.)
Been there through scouting. A friend of my wife knows the parents and
apparently they feel we ripped them off with a paltry settlement.
Stephen Rainsbury
>Actually there's anecdotal evidence to suggest that risk averse
>teachers actually create risk ignorant kids. Denied of experiencing
>risk in small measured and controlled doses in their youth, many kids
>grow up to take more risks from dangerous driving to drug taking to
>alcohol abuse, etc.
That seems to make perfect sense.
>Good life skills don't get you into Oxford or Cambridge.
(Yes they do help to keep you there safely, but that's ignored!)
>Mummy and daddy need you to get 6 GCEs (5 at A grade) and 16 GCSEs (12
>at A* and the rest A). That's all that matters.
Then my daughter is stuffed she only got 5 A* and a large number (not sure
how many) more at A.
GAGS
wrote:
> "GAGS" <gags...@lineone.net> wrote in message
>
> news:88648709-452b-478b...@p9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
> >However, as far as candidates thinking for themselves and playing a
> >100% role in the planning stage, you are quite correct. The
> >(overwhelming) majority of expeditions nowadays, especially at bronze
> >and silver, are effectively 'planned' by leaders. It's leaders who
>
> ...
>
> I agree but to fit everything in to the weekends available you end up doing
> them in batches, ie each assessor taking two teams,
it's not easy try to juggle schedules with multiple bronze and silver
teams and you do have to fit them to your own (often restricted)
plans. There isn't a problem with an assessor taking two teams.
Obviously one in the North York Moors (NYM) and one on Dartmoor isn't
feasible! Neither do I suppose is one team on the North Downs and one
on the South Downs. Furthermore, you may have the time to visit base
camp, check in on progress maybe once, and assess, but not if time is
tight for you at the weekend and the expedition is 200 miles away in
Wales, for example.
At those times many would accept that the leader/assessor is going to
have to 'box' some choices. However, even if the assessor is
restricted that shouldn't be a reason for prescribing an expedition in
detail! It's not the kids' expedition if that happens.
When this has happened to me in the past (once) I have prescribed an
area (Welsh borders) for all (three) teams, but have allowed a lot of
choice within (Two, but not all three chose the same o/n site. Two
routes crossed over at a few points (3, IIRC), but the other was quite
separate. IIRC, I did about 30/40 miles driving between the teams and
did have an assistant.)
I know we're all busy, but if you're going to do stuff like this then
you have to make time. It's not a kids' expedition if all they do is
your expedition. Jeez Louise, they might as well stay at home and you
walk on their behalf!! :-)
> which really means
> picking the area, and inevitably that limits you to camp site options.
It does in some areas.
> In
> Kent we try to spread them round a camp site, Ross Wood and Buckmore Park
> are ideal for this, but sadly Broadstone warren insisted that they were all
> on one, quite small pitch. Grate for meeting other ES, but not exactly what
> we had in mind.
I'm not so sure that you have to 'force' your expeditions to only use
these sites. Green field? Hostels? There's got to be more than just a
couple. If not, try looking elsewhere.
>
> >The DofE do NOT allow you to do that. And where does it say that? Look
> >here:
> >http://www.dofe.org/en/content/cms/Doing_your_DofE/Your_DofE_programm...
>
> We have that on the unit noticeboard and it is a bit of a mantra, but if I
> have three teams all wanting to do an expedition I can't get three weekends
> for practices
You don't need 3 weekends for 3 practices. A little planning and
support and you can do 3 practices on one wekend.
> and another three for assessed expedition, they will have to
> go at the same time to the same area or it can't happen.
Maybe so, but they don't (shouldn't) trek over the same, or roughly
the same, route.
>
> > And equally many parents demand it as well.
>
> Tell me about it. You should have# heard the comments when I set "design a
> nuclear fission bomb" as a homework.
How did they work out in testing? :-)
>
> >Many shools are also quite happy to only trust in their own very
> >narrow-minded risk assessments which have practically no elements of
> >risk included anyway!
>
> The LEA has templates.
Of course, most do! That's because the expeditions are in the same
area, happen at roughly the same time of year, have roughly similar
numbers/groups, follow the same narrow choice of (2, 3, 4 or 6, etc)
prescribed routes each year. Etc.
(I was out yesterday up in Church Stretton walking over the Shropshire
Hills - Long Mynd and Wenlock, etc. Passed a number of groups doing
DofE and even chatted to a leader of one of them when I took a rest
stop at one of their 'checkpoints'. Jeez Louise, you might have well
put up route markers or painted a red line on the ground! It was a 2/3-
day hike, not an expedition!)
I'm sure if i go back up there next year I'll see many of the same
leaders with (different) kids walking the same routes.
IAFJ.
(It's a flaming joke?)
>
> >But there again there are many parents who see an accident happening
> >to their kids (with no more than bruises or such like as a result) and
> >they immediately think jackpot from the £millions in damages.
> >(Actually it shows just how sick parts of society are when they can
> >only think of riches resulting from harm being done to their kids.)
>
> Been there through scouting. A friend of my wife knows the parents and
> apparently they feel we ripped them off with a paltry settlement.
:-)
GAGS
Stephen Rainsbury
On 30 Aug, 11:38, "Stephen Rainsbury" <nos...@rainsbury.net.text>
wrote:
>I'm not so sure that you have to 'force' your expeditions to only use
>these sites. Green field? Hostels? There's got to be more than just a
>couple. If not, try looking elsewhere.
If they did then fine, but logistically we can't go too far from Kent
because we need parents to drop off, and we have already found that 45mins
each way seems to be the pain barrier.
Kent. although the Garden of England, is actually crawling with pikeys and I
wouldn't want mine staying somwehere unless I had checked it.
> We have that on the unit noticeboard and it is a bit of a mantra, but if I
> have three teams all wanting to do an expedition I can't get three
> weekends
> for practices
>You don't need 3 weekends for 3 practices. A little planning and
>support and you can do 3 practices on one wekend.
Thats what I meant, I have to do them in batches or they can't all do it.
>Maybe so, but they don't (shouldn't) trek over the same, or roughly
>the same, route.
Some places are natural bottlenecks, like river or motorway crossings, but
in general kids from teh same unit won't do the same route, but you can't
guantee that another unit using teh same sites isn't going to.
>How did they work out in testing? :-)
Thought experiment.