Storm Lashing + Patrol tents
Chris Naylor
quite work out why we always storm lash our patrol tents. It is
something I have allways done as that's the way they were allway'ss put
up when I was a Cub.
Is there any advantage in doing so (apart from keeping the area taken up
by guy ropes to a minimum)? from what I can tell if the ridge pole broke
without a flysheet on then there would be nothing to stop the tent
collapsing inwards?
--
Chris Naylor
ACSL 16th Dewsbury Cubs (Heavy Woollen District)
Reply is fake, to reply use hathi(at)pobice(dot)com
Never try to out-stubborn a cat.
A Kerr-Munslow [Mad Hatter]
> I couldn't quite work out why we always storm lash our patrol tents.
> Is there any advantage in doing so (apart from keeping the area taken up
> by guy ropes to a minimum)? from what I can tell if the ridge pole broke
> without a flysheet on then there would be nothing to stop the tent
> collapsing inwards?
1) It reduces trip hazard.
2) With a larger patrol tent, the top pole is made up of more than one
section, storm lashing pulls the sections together rather than apart.
3) It causes the forces acting on the tent to act together in a way
which makes the tent more able to stand up to a strong wind.
But you're right, there is the disadvantage that if the pole breaks, the
tent will fall inwards. However, the compression on the pole -
especially a wooden one - could well have the effect of making it less
likely to break (I'm not certain about this).
Amanda
--
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two days slow!
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Manky Badger
"Chris Naylor" <neffYOUR...@pobice.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d06ed5bf...@news.individual.net...
> After our weekend camp and putting up numerous patrol tents I couldn't
> quite work out why we always storm lash our patrol tents. It is
> something I have allways done as that's the way they were allway'ss put
> up when I was a Cub.
>
> Is there any advantage in doing so (apart from keeping the area taken up
> by guy ropes to a minimum)? from what I can tell if the ridge pole broke
> without a flysheet on then there would be nothing to stop the tent
> collapsing inwards?
As a total newbie leader at leader training a few years ago one thing that
stuck in my mind was the opinions on "how to do tents".
Trainers and leaders wouls squabble, row and nearly come to blows on such
trivia as whether to plat or fold guy ropes, whether to make the tent a
rectangle or square before packing into the bag, and as for storm lashings
we approached hysteria with no more logic than "that's how we've always done
it !!!!!!" to support the pro- or anti- storm lashing argument.
Stephen Rainsbury
> 1) It reduces trip hazard.
> 2) With a larger patrol tent, the top pole is made up of more than one
> section, storm lashing pulls the sections together rather than apart.
> 3) It causes the forces acting on the tent to act together in a way
> which makes the tent more able to stand up to a strong wind.
4)In one particularlybad night the tets were well pegged down but the
canvas was still be blow about quite violently however the storm
lashed guys were stopping it from blowing out too far.
5)I always thought that the real reason was when you stretch canvas, eg
with the guys at each end, it is slightly less waterproof as you are
forcing the holes open. When you storm lash the canvas is under less
stress so the holes are more able to close up and be more water proof.
---
SBR
Ewan Scott
> 1) It reduces trip hazard.
> 2) With a larger patrol tent, the top pole is made up of more than one
> section, storm lashing pulls the sections together rather than apart.
> 3) It causes the forces acting on the tent to act together in a way
> which makes the tent more able to stand up to a strong wind.
>
> But you're right, there is the disadvantage that if the pole breaks, the
> tent will fall inwards. However, the compression on the pole -
> especially a wooden one - could well have the effect of making it less
> likely to break (I'm not certain about this).
Hmmm.
A copuple of years ago we were involved with a camp with kids from
Belarussia. They slept in dorms, we slept in tents. Some of the Belarussians
wanted to camp so we borrowed some tents from site stores. The tents had
been in storage for some time, some say four years, other say longer. We
pitched the tents in perfect weather, but that afternoon the heavens opened
and we had the heaviest summer rain ever recorded in one day in West
Yorkshire, thunder rolling round us and lightening striking within Bradley
Wood at least twice.
The patrol tents we had brought out of the stores shrank and the roof panels
became drumskin tight. Then there was a crack as the ridge pole in one of
the tents snapped as the canvas contracted. As the two ends were pushed
together the centre of the pole had nowgere to go but a lateral direction,
ie it bent until it broke! I doubt that it would have made any differnce
which way the main guys were rigged, the canvas contracting to that extend
would just have pulled the pegs out anyway.
I think the only real benefit is the amount of space saved, and the
reduction in the likelihood of people tripping over guys.
Ewan Scott
Paul
> After our weekend camp and putting up numerous patrol tents I couldn't
> quite work out why we always storm lash our patrol tents. It is
> something I have allways done as that's the way they were allway'ss put
> up when I was a Cub.
>
> Is there any advantage in doing so (apart from keeping the area taken up
> by guy ropes to a minimum)? from what I can tell if the ridge pole broke
> without a flysheet on then there would be nothing to stop the tent
> collapsing inwards?
Although I'm obviously aware of the two methods, I've never considered
anything else but storm lashing due to the trip hazard of having the
guy ropes extending way past the door (corner guys are bad enough!).
Never had (or heard of) a broken pole, except for a single breakage
caused by a Scout falling onto the side of the tent.
Trip: 100% certainty
Break: Very low probability
= Storm lash every time
Paul
Paul
> As a total newbie leader at leader training a few years ago one thing that
> stuck in my mind was the opinions on "how to do tents".
And does it really matter, providing they are safe (for users and tent)
and serve the purpose?
No!
All methods are equally valid, just different.
Just don't mention the 45/90 degree corner guy argument, as that has
the power to transcend just about every other issue in Scouting...
Stephen Rainsbury
Paul wrote:
> Just don't mention the 45/90 degree corner guy argument, as that has
> the power to transcend just about every other issue in Scouting...
Well you started it!
The main function of a tent is to keep people dry and this happens best
when the canvas is kept under gentle even tension right across the main
surfaces. This happens when the bit where the guys meet is a straight
line, or very slightly curved in and down at the middle. This funnels
the rain away from the ends, stops the door ends getting muddy and
avoids the parts of the tent where ground sheets are most likely to pop
out.
This means that unless you are on a perfectly flat surface the pegs
will NOT be in a straight line, but they should be individually placed
to keep the canvas flat. Some tents work best when the guys are at
45degrees, others less, but rarely will the best postition be achieved
with them at 90degrees to the tent.
---
SBR
Leslie C. Button
"Chris Naylor" <neffYOUR...@pobice.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d06ed5bf...@news.individual.net...
When storm lashed, the forces are on the ridge pole. When the guys are
"out", they are pulling on the canvas.
As to a pole breaking - I've had it happen. On my first summer camp as a
Scout, we were in a vally in north wales (Cornell Farm) and had a massive
gale (force 8 I was told at the time?) come up the vally. My patrol's
tent's ridge pole broke.
The leaders re-pegged it then (in a matter on minutes) with the guys out.
However, if it had been pegged that way to start with, I'm certain that we
would have still had a ridge, but the canvas would have been torn to streds.
Leslie
Ewan Scott
> Just don't mention the 45/90 degree corner guy argument, as that has
> the power to transcend just about every other issue in Scouting...
No arument at all. Pitch a tent with all the roof guys at 90 degrees. Look
at the tension in the roof and the sidewalls.
Then take the corner guys and extend them at 45 degrees, tnsion the roof an
see the difference.
There is no argument. :-)
Ewan Scott
Stephen Rainsbury
hanging straight. Put the door pegs in first, then the corners, using
at least 8" pegs, make sure the sides are still straight, then put in
the rest of the brailings.
---
SBR
Brian Smith
Stephen Rainsbury <ste...@rainsbury.net> writes
Storm lashing is done with the guys clear of the canvas if you only wish
to reduce trip hazards. If it really is stormy, the guys should be in
contact to prevent the canvas blowing out. Either way, it holds the
ridge pole together without straining the canvas.
On a camp about 4 years ago, I was the only person left on site when all
the others had gone to the nearby beach. A strong wind developed. I
spent the afternoon re-pegging and storm lashing about 30 patrol tents,
but before I got to the last one, the canvas ripped from end to end.
The remaining storm-lashed tents all survived the increasing wind
strength.
At the same time a leader's dome tent suffered a damaged fibreglass
pole, the pole splitting into a bunch of fibres. Luckily it was a part-
sleeved design so that the damaged part was accessible without removing
the pole from the tent (I'm sure the tent would have taken off if I had
attempted to strike it). A whipping with polypropylene twine around the
damaged section made a very effective repair that kept the tent intact
during the storm, and for several camps afterwards.
--
Brian Smith
8th Muswell Hill Scouts
Dave Mayall
news:edFSFFAZ...@bsmith.demon.co.uk...
> Storm lashing is done with the guys clear of the canvas if you only wish
> to reduce trip hazards. If it really is stormy, the guys should be in
> contact to prevent the canvas blowing out.
Only if the object of the exercise is to make the tent leak!
Brian Smith
group.co.uk> writes
--
Brian Smith
Paul
> No arument at all. Pitch a tent with all the roof guys at 90 degrees. Look
> at the tension in the roof and the sidewalls.
>
> Then take the corner guys and extend them at 45 degrees, tnsion the roof an
> see the difference.
I'm a 45 degree person. 90 degrees (i.e. straight out the end of the
tent, not to the side like the rest) pulls the seam the wrong way and
forces the sidewall to droop at the end and, in Stephens reasoning,
actually causes the water to flow TO the door!
But point that out to some leaders...
Paul.
Stephen Rainsbury
> If it really is stormy, the guys should be in
> contact to prevent the canvas blowing out. Either way, it holds the
> ridge pole together without straining the canvas.
I agree that it should stop the canvas, but I would be happier with a
small gap other wise the tent will leak as the pores will become
deformed, unless you ae using a fly sheet where its not so critical.
Either way you have to make damn sure the rope isn't touching the tent
when it starts to dry or you will stain it.
---
SBR
Martin Whelan
if a tents going to rip, its going to rip is the line that I alway. The
worst damage I have seen done to a patrol tent was a botched storm
lashing, which took a battering and ripped a good foot long hole in the
roof.
> At the same time a leader's dome tent suffered a damaged fibreglass
> pole, the pole splitting into a bunch of fibres.
Paul may be able to help me out here, but I recall at least one
afternoon at Essex 2000 being extremely windy. To the point that at one
there were the whole Arena Activities team hanging onto to a marquee to
stop it blowing away. The staff field took a bit of damage as well. Been
on a couple of SSAGO events where the weather has taken an extreme turn
for the worst, and its really shows who has pitched there tents properly .
Martin
Neil Williams
>Just don't mention the 45/90 degree corner guy argument, as that has
>the power to transcend just about every other issue in Scouting...
Depends on the tent. Some tents have two ropes coming from the end
eyelet, and thus work either way. Others have one, and as such 90
degrees doesn't tension things properly.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
Dr John Stockton
Tue, 31 May 2005 22:54:05, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting, Chris Naylor
<neffYOUR...@pobice.com> posted :
>After our weekend camp and putting up numerous patrol tents I couldn't
>quite work out why we always storm lash our patrol tents. It is
>something I have allways done as that's the way they were allway'ss put
>up when I was a Cub.
>
>Is there any advantage in doing so (apart from keeping the area taken up
>by guy ropes to a minimum)? from what I can tell if the ridge pole broke
>without a flysheet on then there would be nothing to stop the tent
>collapsing inwards?
In storm conditions, with a sideways wind, there is a very large force
on the upwind main guys. With the guys "outwards", this force is
tending to pull the fabric apart - and, although it is reinforced along
the ridge seam, that cannot be a good thing. With the guys "inwards",
that force is compressive along the pole; and poles are very strong in
compression, even with an added sideways force.
With a lengthways wind, the ridge pole efficiently transfers the force
of the taut guys to the windward end of the tent.
--
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Chris
news:d7kp54$117$1...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Paul may be able to help me out here, but I recall at least one afternoon
> at Essex 2000 being extremely windy. To the point that at one there were
> the whole Arena Activities team hanging onto to a marquee to stop it
> blowing away. The staff field took a bit of damage as well. Been on a
> couple of SSAGO events where the weather has taken an extreme turn for the
> worst, and its really shows who has pitched there tents properly .
I remember that day well - I was on the sailing team at Brightlingsea and we
sat on the beach at the end of Mersea Island (silly to stay on the water at
that stage) and watched this huge storm come around us laying waste. A
couple of yachts (not ours fortunately) got struck by lightning.
All out tents were fine in the staff field though (good old 160lb ex-army
jobs - completely indestructible, just a dog to transport/put up/store).
--Chris
Paul Harris
Whelan <martin...@free-stater.gmail.com> writes
>
>Paul may be able to help me out here, but I recall at least one
>afternoon at Essex 2000 being extremely windy. To the point that at one
>there were the whole Arena Activities team hanging onto to a marquee to
>stop it blowing away. The staff field took a bit of damage as well.
>Been on a couple of SSAGO events where the weather has taken an extreme
>turn for the worst, and its really shows who has pitched there tents
>properly .
I can think of a few occasions when it has been a bit windy during
Jamborees and I do recall a few people in the staff field who hadn't
taken the trouble to use all the guy lines in the way that they are
intended.
We all make sure that the Scouts know how to pitch the tent and see that
they do it properly (according to our understanding of what properly is)
but when it came to the tents in the staff field some were a little more
lax and learnt a lesson about doing the job properly in future.
--
Paul Harris
Stephen Rainsbury
> All out tents were fine in the staff field though (good old 160lb ex-army
> jobs - completely indestructible, just a dog to transport/put up/store).
Our ex-army hospital tent is terrid, if it put up properly. The cubs
used it a few years back, they didn't lace the canvas, they didn't peg
the ground fram and they didn't put the guys in.
First night it started to flap the canvas so they tied it. Second night
the frame started to lift so they pegged it with large wooden pegs
crossed over the frame, finally the whole bloody thing lifted and moved
2 feet. At this point they put the guys in and it was solid as a rock.
You are right that they are really designed for squadies to use, this
one comes in 4 bags that are really to heavy for one person. Solo I can
assemble the frame in under an hour, drag the canvas into place in 15
minutes, another half hour to tie the canvas down with paracord, and
another 30 minutes to get the guys in. They are BIG metal pegs.
Getting it down takes about an hour, assuming that the ground lacing
was done properly with two pieces of cord so you just pull the end and
it all comes undone. (Or you use cable ties and just cut them!)
---
SBR
Paul Harris
writes
>I remember that day well - I was on the sailing team at Brightlingsea
>and we sat on the beach at the end of Mersea Island (silly to stay on
>the water at that stage) and watched this huge storm come around us
>laying waste. A couple of yachts (not ours fortunately) got struck by
>lightning.
>
>All out tents were fine in the staff field though (good old 160lb
>ex-army jobs - completely indestructible, just a dog to transport/put
>up/store).
>
It was rather an expensive squall though for us in a totally different
respect. The Web Team had been asked if we could supply a computer and
monitor for the VIP / visitors tent where they were doing teas etc. We
had given them a brand new 20" screen only a few hours before and they
had set it up themselves with a rolling presentation.
I gather it was all looking very good except that they had placed it in
this large marquee directly under the point where the join was laced
together. Along came the squall, the wind howled the rain fell, the join
leaked and the screen went pop!
--
Paul Harris
Chris Naylor
neffYOUR...@pobice.com mumbles something along the lines of...
> After our weekend camp and putting up numerous patrol tents I couldn't
> quite work out why we always storm lash our patrol tents. It is
> something I have allways done as that's the way they were allway'ss put
> up when I was a Cub.
>
> Is there any advantage in doing so (apart from keeping the area taken up
> by guy ropes to a minimum)? from what I can tell if the ridge pole broke
> without a flysheet on then there would be nothing to stop the tent
> collapsing inwards?
>
>
and for now anywhay I will continue to put the tents up in the same way
I have allways done (and known).
As it's cubs we are working with and the site we usually camp at
(Whitley Beaumont for them that know it!) is rather sheltered (well it
is down by the bub hut!). Knowing what cubs are like it's a lot better
to reduce trip hazards!
--
Chris Naylor
ACSL 16th Dewsbury Cubs (Heavy Woollen District)
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Derek Biddle
Naylor <neffYOUR...@pobice.com> writes
>After our weekend camp and putting up numerous patrol tents I couldn't
>quite work out why we always storm lash our patrol tents. It is
>something I have allways done as that's the way they were allway'ss put
>up when I was a Cub.
>
>Is there any advantage in doing so (apart from keeping the area taken up
>by guy ropes to a minimum)? from what I can tell if the ridge pole broke
>without a flysheet on then there would be nothing to stop the tent
>collapsing inwards?
>
If you guyed it the other way, and the canvas tore, the ridge pole would
come apart and might hit someone.....
It is a question of balance.
Anyway, I have in the past had to deal with multiple tents which I
always storm guyed. Have you tried taking down tents single-handedly
when they are not storm guyed?
Perhaps your arms are longer than mine
;-)
--
Derek Biddle
Derek Biddle
<nowa...@hotmail.com> writes
guy goes at 45%, etc. Some tents have two guys at the corner (and two
seams)
The manufacturer has put strength there and we should use it rather than
fight it.
--
Derek Biddle
Derek Biddle
<nowa...@hotmail.com> writes
Ever had a nail failure in the bottom section of an upright pole?
The metal sleeve starts to slither down the pole, and the top part is
less and less settled into the sleeve.
Eventually so little of the top pole is in the sleeve that only the
downward pressure of the pole keeps it upright, while the lateral
pressure of a cub trying to put his boots on is having a different
effect.....
The above scenario caused me to be running far faster than I should have
at my age....
>Trip: 100% certainty
>Break: Very low probability
>= Storm lash every time
>
>
>Paul
>
--
Derek Biddle
Derek Biddle
on@hotpoop_withonlyone_o_.com> writes
Let's sue Blacks et all for not providing two extra sets of guys so that
we can do both, with the outward ones being installed slightly slack, to
take over at a seconds notice.
Otherwise we might get sued.
>Leslie
>
>
--
Derek Biddle
Dr John Stockton
Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:59:00, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting, Derek Biddle
<De...@pinnacleprojects.demon.co.uk> posted :
>
>Ever had a nail failure in the bottom section of an upright pole?
>
>The metal sleeve starts to slither down the pole, and the top part is
>less and less settled into the sleeve.
Good poles have the wood of reduced diameter where it enters the sleeve,
on both male and female sides, which makes the outside diameter
nominally constant along the whole length; they also have two
countersunk screws where you suggest a nail.
I suggest at least ensuring that the tents you use start each camp with
two good screws in place.
Screws, of course, can be taken out and inspected; and, if someone has
dented the sleeve so that the poles cannot be pulled out, you can remove
the screws when the problem is discovered at the end of camp and sort
things out properly at home.
--
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Dr John Stockton
Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:42:57, seen in news:uk.rec.scouting, Derek Biddle
<De...@pinnacleprojects.demon.co.uk> posted :
>Anyway, I have in the past had to deal with multiple tents which I
>always storm guyed. Have you tried taking down tents single-handedly
>when they are not storm guyed?
>
>Perhaps your arms are longer than mine
Unless it is very windy, the tent will stay up without the main guys.
So you can quickly storm-guy it, only firmly enough for the wind
expected in the next few minutes, then take it down by the short-arm
method. You only need to do one side.
Depending on guy lengths, the guys can probably be transferred to
existing pegs of non-main guys.
Presumably you know how two or more guys should be put on a single peg,
if that is required? It's the same as putting ship's mooring cables on
a bollard.
--
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Stephen Rainsbury
no side walls, the roof just keep going down to meet the ground where it
ends in big D-rings that you can peg straight down. The main guys would be
heavy duty tapes sewn on top the canvas going from top to opposite bottom
corner where the D-Ring would be big enough for a bigger peg.
There would be the option of an inner tent that hung up inside, possibly
with a sewn in ground sheet. I reckon it would be quicker and easier to
errect, it would not take up anymore room because the guys would be there
anyway, and you would get the extra storage space under the eves for boots
and bags.
I am sure that it must have been done and that somebody will say "Ahh but in
practice its crap because...."
Still if you think that's weird wait until I take the photo of the
revolutionary lightweight £40 dining shelter I have come up with :-)
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
Stephen Rainsbury
news:o0zV37ASJ$nCF...@pinnacleprojects.demon.co.uk...
> In article <d7k47a$1t3n$1...@pflock.pfadi.ch>, Leslie C. Button <lesliebutt
> Let's sue Blacks et all for not providing two extra sets of guys so that
> we can do both, with the outward ones being installed slightly slack, to
> take over at a seconds notice.
>
> Otherwise we might get sued.
Lets put remote controlled electric (12V) winches on them so we could do it
without getting wet, or even via X10 and we could phone the instructions in
if we were off site :-)