Raymarine tiller pilot constant beep
Justin C
previous owner. Put waypoints into the GPS, and it did what I hoped, so
I'm pleased with that. Used the anchor for the first time, and though
manual windlass is slow, it's definitely easier than hauling that huge
chunk of steel off the bottom.
What gave me some grief, though, is the Raymarine tiller pilot. It's
either and ST1000 or an ST2000 (I didn't note it before I left the
boat). The problem is that as soon as I plug it in it starts beeping...
well, it's not a beep, it's just a continuous tone. There's no display,
and pushing the buttons have no effect. It just goes "eeeeeeeeee" and
doesn't stop until I unplug it. Any ideas why this might be, or how I
might track down the problem?
I've looked at the Raymarine web-site but there troubleshooting page
came up with nothing. I don't know if the previous owner ever actually
used it, it is possible it's wired incorrectly; that's something I'll
have to look into when I have a little more time.
Thank you for any suggestions or help you are able to give.
Justin.
--
Justin C, by the sea.
sa...@dog.com
Tiller pilots are not waterproof. That goes for both Raymarine and
Simrad. My guess is that yours has corrosion (or even remaining water)
somewhere inside. It's not hard to open up and take a peek. You won't
be unsealing any magic water resistant seals or anything. Just remove
all the screws and pry apart the two halves.
I made a simple cover for mine by sliping on a gallon sized zip lock
bag with a small hole for the pushrod. I then wrapped a ring of tape
around it at the open end to keep it on. You don't want to cover the
vent area on the underside, near where the pilot mounts to the bracket
on the boat.
The clear baggie enables me to operate the buttons and read the
display, but protects it somewhat from rain and splashes.
Wilbur Hubbard
news:id1lh6-...@purestblue.com...
Before you pop the wishbone into the brass mounting cup, plug it in and then
while holding it horizontal turn it through 360 degrees. At some point the
beep will stop and the telescoping arm will move out. Probably what's
happening is the arm is up against the inner stop and it is trying to go in
even further but can't. There is no limit switch in these things - only the
alarm.
Wilbur Hubbard
sa...@dog.com
Bwhahahahaha! Spoken like someone who has never even seen a Raymarine
ST1000 or ST2000. I own one of each. There is no "wishbone" or "brass
mounting cup", and if you felt the pushrod was stuck at either
extreme, for some odd reason, you would simply push the buttons to
either extend or retract it. The only time I've seen the unit act that
way, was while in auto mode, the arm got knocked off the post on the
tiller and fully extended or retracted desperatly trying to get the
boat to turn. The fix for that is to press the standby button, and
then the button to extend or retract the pushrod as needed before
putting it back on the post.
Sheesh!
Wilbur Hubbard
news:cmuf4599ami3vnsrq...@4ax.com...
Sheesh your freakin' own self! I have an ST 1000 myself. But, the ST stands
for SeaTalk and that designation was given it before Ray Marine bought out
Autohelm. But, regardless of that, the ST 1000 is a tiller pilot and it has
a gimbaled pin (the older versions had a wishbone the newer ones have the
pin) that slides into a brass cup or socket.
But, I am right and you are wrong. When the unit is unplugged whatever
instructions the buttons had been given are gone, lost, kaput. It has no
memory feature for storing presets after the plug is pulled. What it does
have is a rubber detent that the shaft butts up against and an alarm sounds
when it can retract or extend no further.
So just stick around and wait for JustinC's reply where he thanks me for
solving his problem.
Wilbur Hubbard
Duncan Heenan
news:4a481b11$0$28130$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
>snip<
> Sheesh your freakin' own self! I have an ST 1000 myself.
Isn't it asking rather a lot of an ST1000 to handle a (wheel steered) Swan
64, Wima? After all, that's what you've told us in the past that you have;
or maybe you have traded down recently?
What boat do you now have, Wilma?
Tony of Judicious
I have a ST2000. Unplug it (this removes any previous settings), plug it in
again. If it still goes eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit is ****ed.
As noted elsewhere these units are not very waterproof. They are assembled
using steel screws which rust and the case cannot be dismantled without
destroying the case. Expect to pay about £150 (which includes a new
casing) for a repair; when you get it back replace the steel screws with SS
to save money next time it fails.
Ronald Raygun
> But, I am right and you are wrong. When the unit is unplugged whatever
> instructions the buttons had been given are gone, lost, kaput. It has no
> memory feature for storing presets after the plug is pulled.
What does it do after the plug is put back in and before it has been
given a new course to steer? Surely rather than making one up at random,
it powers up in standby/manual/non-steering mode in which the rod moves
in or out only as instructed by button presses.
I suggest Justin's problem could be that as a result of corrosion the
unit thinks one of the buttons *is* being pressed, and it's attempting
to pull the rod in against the end stop.
Tony of Judicious
SNIPPED
>
> I have a ST2000. Unplug it (this removes any previous settings), plug it
> in
> again. If it still goes eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit is ****ed.
>
> As noted elsewhere these units are not very waterproof. They are
> assembled using steel screws which rust and the case cannot be dismantled
> without
> destroying the case. Expect to pay about £150 (which includes a new
> casing) for a repair; when you get it back replace the steel screws with
> SS to save money next time it fails.
On reflection, this is a bit brief.
As it is making some sort of noise it is highly unlikely to be due to a
wiring fault.
If after plugging it in, it does not go eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, but makes a short
bleep, you are in with a chance.
DO NOT touch the 'Auto' or 'Standby' buttons. As you have just plugged it
in, it is in the standby mode and it does not know about any external
information, such as connection to a GPS.
What happens next depends on whether the ram is fully retracted, partially
extended or fully extended, and also if the unit is set for port or
starboard cockpit mounting.
Assuming the ram is set for port mounting, and the ram is not fully
extended, press either of the port change of course buttons. The ram
should extend. If the ram is fully extended press a starboard button, the
ram should retract.
(For starboard mounting, reverse the port/starboard buttons).
Providing the ram is moving it might be OK.
To check the compass. Put the ram in the midway position. Press the 'Auto'
button. Move the unit on its pivot as if the boat was changing course.
The ram should start to move in and out automatically as you waggle the
unit around.
As the Craptain mentions, there are no limit switches. If, in Auto mode, it
looses the course and the ram is fully extended (or fully retracted) for a
time (~30 secs?) it will alarm with a continuosus eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, but
this is a safety feature to warn it not following a course.
sa...@dog.com
I have never had a problem with the screws. I don't recall any
inserts. I remember sheet metal screws directly into plastic, not
machine screws and inserts. Rusted or not, they shouldn't be that hard
to remove. If they seem stuck, the tip of a pencil soldering iron
applied to the head will soften the plastic.
I have an ST1000 that is about 9 years old and a 1 year old ST2000.
I haven't opened the ST2000, so maybe newer ones have inserts for the
screws.
sa...@dog.com
Go back and read the original post. The display is blank and the push
rod it does not respond to pushing of any buttons.
It's broken, Chief.
Most likely cause is corrosion, which is a chronic problem with all
tiller pilots, not just Raymarine. Second possible problem is that
previous owner allowed it to run with the push rod either fully
extended or fully retracted, with the motor straining and the alarm
beeping until the motor burned out.
I know someone who added limit switches to his ST1000. He uses his in
conjunction with a wind Vane steering system. His ST1000 is mounted
down inside a lazerette, where he is not aware if it goes into full
extension or retraction and sounds the alarm. He modified it after
burning out a motor.
Justin C
Actually, the Auto and Standby buttons were the only ones I tried - I
got fed up with the noise. I didn't try the other buttons (couldn't see
the point, it sounded broke).
> It's broken, Chief.
I'll give it another try, and then pull it apart.
> Most likely cause is corrosion, which is a chronic problem with all
> tiller pilots, not just Raymarine. Second possible problem is that
> previous owner allowed it to run with the push rod either fully
> extended or fully retracted, with the motor straining and the alarm
> beeping until the motor burned out.
Then it becomes a project!
> I know someone who added limit switches to his ST1000. He uses his in
> conjunction with a wind Vane steering system. His ST1000 is mounted
> down inside a lazerette, where he is not aware if it goes into full
> extension or retraction and sounds the alarm. He modified it after
> burning out a motor.
I think I could figure that out on paper, but I'm not enough of an
engineer to make it.
IanM
Its possible it's suffering from voltage drop due to corrosion at it's
connector. See if you can shift the cover screws without breaking
anything. If so, open it up (the whole top comes off) and inspect the
circuit board for water damage. DO NOT attempt to remove the board or
motor assembly from the lower case half unless you have experience with
delicate electronics. . .
If the board looks all right, plug it in *without* fitting it to the
tiller and check there is at least 12V at the supply terminals spade
connectors (the thick wires in its cable) at the circuit board. If not,
find which connection in the circuit is corroded and fix it.
If you *have* got 12V at the board, its probably a job for Raymarine.
A good board will power up and operate normally with no motor connected,
so you might want to disconnect the motor and try again in case the
motor has shorted.
If the board is obviously ****ed, you may want to disconnect the motor
and test the motor and ram assembly with a 12V supply. Run it end to end
and reverse the supply to the motor to go the other way but as there are
no limit switches, DO NOT leave the 12V connected to the supply.
If the motor OR the board is OK its probably worth getting fixed. Talk
to Raymarine in any case.
Reassembly is the reverse of disassembly, taking care to get the wires
in the right place in the lower case and to get the gasket in it's
groove evenly and fully seated before tightening down the screws. Put
all the screws in, turning them back slightly to find the existing
thread in the plastic (if it cuts a new thread it *will* weaken the bush
and next time it will probably strip) before screwing them in till the
heads just touch, then follow a diagonal tightening pattern like fitting
a cylinder head, working out from the middle. Get them medium tight,
then go round again tightening them as much as you dare without
stripping the plastic thread in the casing.
A cover is essential if there is any rain or spray about. The force on
the push rod is transmitted to the mounting pin via the case and of
course it flexes slightly and often leaks. Always wipe it down before
stowing it and don't stow it buttons down or any damp that has got in
will eat the circuit board.
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
Pete Verdon
> A cover is essential if there is any rain or spray about.
Why are they still making such a crappy device? A machine designed to be
used in the cockpit of a small yacht and it's apparently not even
splashproof?
Pete
Pete Verdon
> because the only competition can get away with it too?
Indeed. I was going to write "surely there's a gap in the market for a
new company to offer a waterproof tillerpilot - I'd pay a reasonable
premium for that", until I realised that within months of this going on
the market the incumbents would probably start manufacturing the
waterproof designs I'm sure they have stored away[1], and put the
upstart out of business.
Do these things get hot in use? If not, ie no ventilation requirements,
as soon as I buy one I'll be modifying it for water resistance.
Pete
[1] Don't tell me that no engineer at that company has tried to pitch a
waterproof version and been told it doesn't fit their product strategy
at the moment
Pete Verdon
> Heh! Next you'll be suggesting a cut out when the shaft reaches the limits :-)
> and that Raymarine buys the top of the range, instead of the bottom of the
> range, of the through hull sensors from Airmar.
Any commercial product is a tradeoff between quality and cost. I
wouldn't suggest that Raymarine make every possible improvement to the
specification, because then I wouldn't be able to afford the device. The
difference with water resistance[1] is that the cost/benefit ratio is
skewed so far over to one side. It doesn't seem like it would be hard to
do, and the tales of failed pilots due to water ingress are legion.
Pete
[1] I wouldn't demand IPx7 waterproofing because there's a substantial
moving part that penetrates the case; sealing this would be costly
compared to the additional benefit.
sa...@dog.com
>On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:02:44 +0100, Pete Verdon
>because the only competition can get away with it too?
It's a bit of a challenge to make something like this completely
sealed. It has a pushrod stcking out that moves back and forth a lot,
and with a lot of pressure behind it. Just the same, I think they
could make some of the internal components like the circuit board and
buttons, completely and independantly sealed. The motor,
unfortunately, is another story, as it not only has protruding moving
parts, but is also air cooled.
If you take reasonable care of the unit, and put a baggie over the
most vulnerable area, it becomes a non-issue. My older unit has been
used for many years in all conditions without any problem. I have
opened it up occasionally to confirm things are okay, and there has
never been any corrosion.
Pete Verdon
> If you look at what Airmar sells, you really see that we get the scrapings of
> the barrel.
Perhaps I should consider building my own? About time I got back into
embedded microprocessor programming.
I wonder if there's a better way to connect a built-in system to the
tiller? Really I want a "below decks" system, but I imagine that's not
feasible with the vast majority of tiller mechanisms.
Pete
IanM
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:58:59 -0400, sa...@dog.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:43:55 +0200, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:02:59 -0400, sa...@dog.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:38:31 +0200, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>> The socket comes with a screw on cap (on a tether so it it always
>>>> available) to protect the socket when the unit is disconnected.
>>> It doesn't keep condensation from entering from the back.
>> Maybe you should have read the instructions. You seem to have multiple
>> self-inflicted problems that are easily avoided.
>
> I have remarkably few boat problems compared to what I see others posting here.
>
>> Not many people leave
>> exposed, unprotected connections when wiring anything on a boat. That
>> is pretty basic.
>
> So you potted the rear of your ST1000 socket?
<VBG> :-) </VBG> Not exactly, but . . . .
I did complain bitterly about the connector having mild steel screws in
the terminals. There was a batch produced that were far from corrosion
resistant. DONT mount the connector on a horizontal surface. I fitted
a replacement connector and applied conformal coating to the backs of
all the terminals. For a wiping contact like most plugs and sockets,
silicone grease is very good at reducing water damage and preventing
oxidation. It is *totally* unsuitable for 'dry' or non-wiping contacts
as found in switches and relays and actually increases the damage.
>
> Exactly which part of the instructions are you referring to?
If installed according to the instructions, it will be either be deep
sixed within three years or a continued source of income for Raymarine.
OTOH if you ignore the wrong bits of the instructions you'll be unhappy
from day one.
IanM
> IanM wrote:
>> I did complain bitterly about the connector having mild steel screws in
>> the terminals.
>
> Mild steel in brass terminals?
Yes. They were supposed to be stainless of course. I found them when
investigating a lack of NMEA input. Most of the screw heads had rusted
off and there was nothing left except rust holding one of the NMEA
signal wires into its pin. Several of the pins had actually split round
the wire entry from rust. The remains were attracted by a magnet so I
suspect that somewhere in the supply chain someone was subbing ordinary
steel for stainless and pocketing the difference. Raymarine weren't
very happy to hear about that. :-) They had previously offered to fix it
for free if the fault was something that could have been spotted at the
previous service but I'd have been on the hook for at least the shipping
and handling and possibly the full service cost if it was due to
incorrect connection or other abuse. As I'd taken this ST2000 on with
the boat and didn't know what exactly what trouble the previous owner
had had other than that it had been back at least twice, I investigated
myself and found I could replace the plug *and* socket for less than it
would cost me to send it to them, *and* I'd have it done for a long trip
that was coming up soon. The new plug looked identical but had
non-magnetic screws :-)
N.B. Contrary to what has been claimed elsewhere in this thread,
Raymarine do NOT automatically replace the casing on all units repaired.
They will repair leaks around the display and buttons with silicone
sealant. I know this because my unit had two service stickers with
different dates on the casing and silicone applied by the service
department with a letter to say so.
>
>> There was a batch produced that were far from corrosion
>> resistant. DONT mount the connector on a horizontal surface. I fitted
>> a replacement connector and applied conformal coating to the backs of
>> all the terminals.
Justin C
<wilbur...@thefarm.invallid> wrote:
>"Justin C" <justi...@purestblue.com> wrote in message
>news:id1lh6-...@purestblue.com...
>> Spent this weekend on the boat playing with the toys left by the
>> previous owner. Put waypoints into the GPS, and it did what I hoped, so
>> I'm pleased with that. Used the anchor for the first time, and though
>> manual windlass is slow, it's definitely easier than hauling that huge
>> chunk of steel off the bottom.
>>
>> What gave me some grief, though, is the Raymarine tiller pilot. It's
>> either and ST1000 or an ST2000 (I didn't note it before I left the
>> boat). The problem is that as soon as I plug it in it starts beeping...
>> well, it's not a beep, it's just a continuous tone. There's no display,
>> and pushing the buttons have no effect. It just goes "eeeeeeeeee" and
>> doesn't stop until I unplug it. Any ideas why this might be, or how I
>> might track down the problem?
>>
>> I've looked at the Raymarine web-site but there troubleshooting page
>> came up with nothing. I don't know if the previous owner ever actually
>> used it, it is possible it's wired incorrectly; that's something I'll
>> have to look into when I have a little more time.
>>
>> Thank you for any suggestions or help you are able to give.
>>
>> Justin.
>>
>> --
>> Justin C, by the sea.
>
>
>
>Before you pop the wishbone into the brass mounting cup, plug it in and then
>while holding it horizontal turn it through 360 degrees. At some point the
>beep will stop and the telescoping arm will move out. Probably what's
>happening is the arm is up against the inner stop and it is trying to go in
>even further but can't. There is no limit switch in these things - only the
>alarm.
>
>Wilbur Hubbard
>
Thank you Wilbur Hubbard. Your suggestion did the job. It was trying
to retract because of the direction my boat lies iin her slip. As soon
as I turned it about 45 degrees the beep stopped and it extended.
Problem solved. Thanks again.
Wilbur Hubbard
news:jeok45lm7p34l97gjlg8jurqin3kj4r3ha@MAESTRO...
I just KNEW it!!!!
Ha ha. Right again. But, I bet Salty Dog conveniently stays lost so he
won't have to apologize to me.
Wilbur Hubbard
IanM
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:21:36 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
<fake post deleted>
>>
>>
>> I just KNEW it!!!!
>>
>> Ha ha. Right again. But, I bet Salty Dog conveniently stays lost so he
>> won't have to apologize to me.
>>
>> Wilbur Hubbard
>>
>
> No apology needed. I'm pretty sure we haven't gotten to the end of
> this story yet.
>
> You can fully retract or extend these units and pull the plug. When
> you reconnect them, they don't sit there beeping, and the display
> isn't blank. The unit has a problem.
>
ADN has been replying to himself again. The headers don't lie. He
doesn't dare spoof Justin's news provider, I presume because he cant
risk legal action. 'gigamews.c�m' indeed! An umlaut and swapping m for
n. Worried one change isn't enough to protect him? <LOL>
Altopia's TOS prohibits faking a domain that exists unless you have
legitimate access to it and also requires a second 'alt.net' at the end
of path preloading.
Looks like he's run out of disposable accounts and doesn't want to loose
this one.
Also this range of autopilots powers up in standby by design. Its a
safety feature. The ram wont move until either a +/- 1 or 10 degree
button has been pressed for controlled ram movement in standby or until
its put in auto mode. The ram wont move then either if the heading
remains unchanged. Doesn't matter if its right at a limit stop. It wont
normally beep until it needs to correct course and is unable to do so.
(except in track mode for change of waypoint or loss of data)
N.B The ram can be safely moved in or out with the power off just by
rotating it. Makes stowing it a lot easier and can also help with
diagnosing motor problems if its hard against a stop.
sa...@dog.com
You said it better and more completely than I have.
>N.B The ram can be safely moved in or out with the power off just by
>rotating it. Makes stowing it a lot easier and can also help with
>diagnosing motor problems if its hard against a stop.
Thanks, Ian. As I was replying, I was thinking that what I was
responding to could not have happened. The only scenario I could
figure (very unlikely) was that when he turned it around, he
inadvertently and temporarily "fixed" an intermittent connection, or
the water on the circuit board ran elsewhere. It really didn't sound
right.
I own two of these, an ST1000 and an ST2000. Never tried to move the
ram by twisting it. Then again, I never had need to. Thanks for the
tip.
Justin C
[snip]
>
> Its possible it's suffering from voltage drop due to corrosion at it's
> connector. See if you can shift the cover screws without breaking
> anything. If so, open it up (the whole top comes off) and inspect the
> circuit board for water damage. DO NOT attempt to remove the board or
> motor assembly from the lower case half unless you have experience with
> delicate electronics. . .
[snip]
Excellent stuff, Ian. Thanks for the post. Saved for consideration. I'll
take my multi-tester to the boat next time.
sa...@dog.com
Brown wire - PIN 1 = +12v
Blue wire - PIN 2 = GROUND
PIN 3 = not used
Yellow wire = PIN 4 = Seatalk Data
Green wire - PIN5 = -NMEA DATA
White wire - PIN6 = +NMEA DATA
Wilbur Hubbard
news:0hjq45l8fr1ivdrnl...@4ax.com...
It's more likely a mechanical failure. Those things have inside the case a
fluxgate compass. It consists of two brass or copper rectangular plates
standing tall side by side.
Unfortunately due to vibration and the workings of the ram one of these
standing plates can break the solder joint to the circuit board. If either
of them can be wiggled by lightly trying to move them with light pressure
from a finger it means a cold or broken solder joint. Removing the board and
re-soldering the joint will restore it's function.
Wilbur Hubbard
Duncan Heenan
news:4a4d54da$0$28137$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
Duncan Heenan
news:4a4d54da$0$28137$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
Duncan Heenan
news:4a4d54da$0$28137$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
Tony of Judicious
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 00:14:09 +0100, Justin C <justi...@purestblue.com>
> wrote:
>
> You should buy a multi-tester for the boat and keep it in the boat. They
> are very cheap nowadays.
Maplins, about 7 quid.
sa...@dog.com
>Manuals downloadable from the Raymarine website.
I don't think the manulas will offer him much help. I don't really
think his problem is in the parts external to the device, but since he
mentioned he wanted to test something with a meter, I gave him the
pinouts.
If he has enough voltage to the device to sound the beeper, he should
not be looking at a blank display.
He needs to open the unit and determine if it is something obvious
that he can fix himself. If not, he can send it for repair or junk it.
Not too many other options. The most common problem with these things
is water inside. When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you
look for zebras.
philrobinson
> that he can fix himself. If not, he can send it for repair or junk it.
> Not too many other options. The most common problem with these things
> is water inside. When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you
> look for zebras.
he can hear horses. Cheers, P
Wilbur Hubbard
message news:3eu3m.17126$%Q1....@newsfe12.ams2...
If he believes anything salty dog types he's hearing a horse's arse!
:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Wilbur Hubbard
(sold the Swan, pay attention!)
Steve Firth
> When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you
> look for zebras.
If you're sailing and you can hear hoofbeats look out for Uffa Fox.
Steve Firth
> > Theres certainly _something_ seriously wrong with his autopilot if
> > he can hear horses. Cheers, P
> >
>
> If he believes anything salty dog types he's hearing a horse's arse!
Why am I not surprised that an amateur like Wilbur has never heard of
the horse latitudes?
Ignatios Souvatzis
> When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you
> look for zebras.
Depends on geographic area and proximity of a zoo.
-is
--
seal your e-mail: http://www.gnupg.org/
Justin C
> sa...@dog.com wrote:
>
>> When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you
>> look for zebras.
>
> Depends on geographic area and proximity of a zoo.
>
> -is
Are you talking about Wilbur on a pedallo on the Serpentine?
Ronald Raygun
> In article <slrnh4u62t....@marie.beverly.kleinbus.org>, Ignatios
> Souvatzis wrote:
>> sa...@dog.com wrote:
>>
>>> When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you
>>> look for zebras.
>>
>> Depends on geographic area and proximity of a zoo.
>
> Are you talking about Wilbur on a pedallo on the Serpentine?
I don't reckon Wilbur is all that keen on horses, or zoos. I understand
he finds ze bras much more fascinating.
Duncan Heenan
news:6rR3m.51775$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
sa...@dog.com
He prefers girls before the age when they need one.