Topaz Uno Race Vs Laser
JohnW
as i can work out what i want.
I regularly sail a Laser (1) with full rig and find this fun and still a
challenge in a bit of a blow. I have come to the opinion it is a fairly a
difficult boat to sail well and couldn't claim to have mastered the boat
yet, in a perverse way, that is its attraction. I like my sailing as fast
and physically demanding as i can manage.
But wanting everything i as wondering if there was a boat that was as
challenging as a Laser or slightly more so, that i could race single handed
but still take a body or perhaps two for a pootle in my role as father
figure.
I came across the Topaz Sailing system i.e. it can come with six different
rigs one of which is the UNO Race. Sounds ideal. BUT i noticed the PN number
for the boat in this RIG is 1240 as opposed to a 1970's design Laser which
is 1078. (Even the "Tres "with a full battened Main and spinnaker it is only
1175) ?? Why So.
I was surprised at this as the UNO Race has very nearly the same size sail
as a Laser.??.
Question
Does this mean the Topaz is likely to be a bit dull compared to a Laser. Or
am i reading to much into these performance handicap ratings.
I am intrigued as possibly my theoretical favourite option this far is the
RS vareo, PN 1060 with 8.8m main or 1030 with additional spin. (Big grin)
trouble is they need to sell a couple thousand more so i can find people to
play with at weekends. A problem i wouldnt have with the laser and
presumably the Topaz.
Also does the PN number reflect the crew number, in other words if it was
physically possible to race a given boat single or two man, would the
handicap have to be different.?
JohnW
Speed Junky
Mark Bluemel
One seems little used by the lad who has perhaps outgrown it (he's late
teens/early twenties I think and fairly big), t'other is sailed by a
youngish, fairly slight, woman and (sometimes) a young(ish) son. No serious
racing as far as I can see - and you're more likely to see the Vareo build
in popularity for racing than the Topaz.
I get the impression the Topaz was Topper's response to the Laser Pico, and
both seem to me to be an improved Topper for training young people.
I suggest you look elsewhere - indeed, I'd not suggest a Topper boat, other
than the Topper itself and perhaps the Buzz, to anyone. My impression is
that Laser and RS are way ahead of Topper these days.
Mark
Nygel Gardner
"Mark Bluemel" <mark_b...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:ah1phj$parrd$1...@ID-126583.news.dfncis.de...
you want competition stick with the Laser, if you want speed (and regular
swimming sessions ! (you have been warned!!!)) try the RS300. If you want
a father figure, poodling around boat then buy an old 2 man boat as well.
IMHO requirements as diverse as single handed racers and 2 man poodlers (?!)
can never be met by the same boat.
Nygel
JohnW
paper, a racked 10m Main PN 1047 boat but of course you have to pitch that
against your Vortex or EPS from laser and RS 200 etc with better pedigrees.
I had hoped the Topaz would be a bit more sporty and would hate to get a
boat that didn't present a challenge to master.
JohnW
"Mark Bluemel" <mark_b...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:ah1phj$parrd$1...@ID-126583.news.dfncis.de...
John Wilson
You can have serious fun singlehanding a "two-man" boat, especially if
it's fairly windy. You fight your way to windward, spilling wind
everywhere, but when you turn downwind, to a nice very broad reach,
(steering to keep the hull under the rig) the boat planes
significantly faster than if it had two people in it. Warning: You
may swim occasionally.
In lighter winds try setting spinnaker/gennaker singlehanded - again
on a reach you'll go faster without the crew weight. Warning: You may
swim more frequently, and have to do a bit of sorting out of strings
on righting.
> Mark has taken most of the words out of my mouth but I would just add if
>you want competition stick with the Laser, if you want speed (and regular
>swimming sessions ! (you have been warned!!!)) try the RS300. If you want
>a father figure, poodling around boat then buy an old 2 man boat as well.
>IMHO requirements as diverse as single handed racers and 2 man poodlers (?!)
>can never be met by the same boat.
>
> Nygel
John Wilson
jwilsonNO*SP...@yachtsnet.co.uk
Remove characters from e-mail address to reply
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JohnW
> Mark has taken most of the words out of my mouth but I would just add
if
> you want competition stick with the Laser, if you want speed (and regular
> swimming sessions ! (you have been warned!!!)) try the RS300. If you
want
> a father figure, poodling around boat then buy an old 2 man boat as well.
> IMHO requirements as diverse as single handed racers and 2 man poodlers
(?!)
> can never be met by the same boat.
>
> Nygel
>
designed in 1970. But i guess your right the Kids will have to go :-).
I don't suppose you would have first hand experience of the relative
difficulty of an RS300 compared to the Laser.
I had a brief chat with RS and the sales guy got a bit carried away
extolling the high performance nature of their boats and practically said
that a Laser sailor couldn't possibly jump in and sail an RS, lacking the
God like abilities presumably. A strange way to sell boats but if its true
then fair enough, except some of us like it hard and don't mind three months
of looking silly falling out. Actually it may be advanced sales technique
because he has definitely piqued my interest.
JohnW
Iain Pendry
"JohnW" <q...@cwnet.com> wrote in message
news:1026853815.19341....@news.demon.co.uk...
> Well to be fair to Topper they have the Blaze X which looks promising on
> paper, a racked 10m Main PN 1047 boat but of course you have to pitch that
> against your Vortex or EPS from laser and RS 200 etc with better
pedigrees.
>
> I had hoped the Topaz would be a bit more sporty and would hate to get a
> boat that didn't present a challenge to master.
>
I think that others have hit the nail on the head - a fast challenging
singlehander and a family boat are IMO almost mutually exclusive. I think
you can forget the Topaz, though.
I've just bought a Blaze and can testify that it's challenging to master,
but it's a barrel of laughs and it goes like stink in a blow. It's also a
little less extreme than the RS range of singlehanders, Vortex etc. One of
the attractions for me was the size of the boat and the amount of room under
the boom. (I'm 6ft 5, weight about 18 stone). I'm not going to be
mega-competitive in the boat, but one of the attractions was the size of the
Blaze cockpit and the room under the boom. Other choice, depending on your
size, is a Phantom.
My advice, buy a Phantom or a Blaze for you, and pick up a cheap GP14 and
sail that with the family. You can get GPs for next to nothing, old mid 70s
plastic boats. You'd never race an old one, but they're bloody fantastic,
well mannered, stable pottering about boats
Iain
Wally
> I had hoped the Topaz would be a bit more sporty and would hate to get a
> boat that didn't present a challenge to master.
For a newbie's perspective, you could have a look at the Topaz threads I
recently initiated. In summary, I found it rather cramped and uncomfortable
(5'10", 11st, not a teenage rock star), kinda slow in light winds, and ready
to tip over if I wasn't paying attention. I had lots of dips, probably due
to a combination of my poor technique and inexperience in spotting a need to
balance quickly enough. I ended up frustrated because it was going over so
quickly, it was hard to work out what went wrong. It's a sit-on, rather than
a sit-in boat and looks very much a one-person jobbie. In light winds, I was
hunched up in the middle and didn't like it. In a F5, I could get up on the
side and lean out a bit.
I was out in a Wanderer last night, with one crew, which I enjoyed far
more - it's probably more suited to my level of (in)experience and maybe the
kind of sailing I'm attracted to at the moment. Even if I found the Topaz
easier to sail, I think I'd still find it cramped and uncomfortable.
Carl Meade
> I think that others have hit the nail on the head - a fast challenging
> singlehander and a family boat are IMO almost mutually exclusive. I think
> you can forget the Topaz, though.
>
> sail that with the family. You can get GPs for next to nothing, old mid 70s
> plastic boats. You'd never race an old one, but they're bloody fantastic,
> well mannered, stable pottering about boats
>
> Iain
You can sail some fast challenging single handers with a kid up front
enjoying the ride. This would apply to a phantom or a vortex (I don't
know the blaze). On a vortex you could probably get them on the wire
although I haven't tried to see if you would get in each others way
when tacking. Clearly you would need to consider the conditions and
the child's water confidence before going out.
I would agree however that a second boat is a better solution unless
you need to take both boats with you. (Although you can get trailers
that can take two boats).
JohnW
I have mixed my reply in with yours.
"Iain Pendry" <iain@NO_spam.> wrote in message
news:3d34a2ca$0$238$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
>
> "JohnW" <q...@cwnet.com> wrote in message
> news:1026853815.19341....@news.demon.co.uk...
> > Well to be fair to Topper they have the Blaze X which looks promising on
> > paper, a racked 10m Main PN 1047 boat but of course you have to pitch
that
> > against your Vortex or EPS from laser and RS 200 etc with better
> pedigrees.
> >
> > I had hoped the Topaz would be a bit more sporty and would hate to get a
> > boat that didn't present a challenge to master.
> >
>
> I think that others have hit the nail on the head - a fast challenging
> singlehander and a family boat are IMO almost mutually exclusive. I think
> you can forget the Topaz, though.
Yep The Topaz is fading from my stary gaze, need more punch.
As for Single handed sport boat that could pootle well you are right but see
http://www.ldcracingsailboats.co.uk/rsvareo.asp . If the description is to
be believed it is fastish but stable enough for a casual crew member
occasionally, allegedly.
Also having been frustrated by the difficulty of finding downwind speed in a
Laser the Spinnaker fitted to the RS Vareo competition rig intrigues me, i
dont see why two man boats should have all the fun downwind.
>
> I've just bought a Blaze and can testify that it's challenging to master,
> but it's a barrel of laughs and it goes like stink in a blow. It's also a
> little less extreme than the RS range of singlehanders, Vortex etc. One
of
> the attractions for me was the size of the boat and the amount of room
under
> the boom. (I'm 6ft 5, weight about 18 stone). I'm not going to be
> mega-competitive in the boat, but one of the attractions was the size of
the
> Blaze cockpit and the room under the boom. Other choice, depending on
your
> size, is a Phantom.
Yep Blaze does look fun and is reasonably priced and is now on my shortlist,
will take your tip on the Phantom. There is one at a local Lake and i may be
ale to beg a Try Out. I haven't raced against it but it looks quick,
>
> My advice, buy a Phantom or a Blaze for you, and pick up a cheap GP14 and
> sail that with the family. You can get GPs for next to nothing, old mid
70s
> plastic boats. You'd never race an old one, but they're bloody fantastic,
> well mannered, stable pottering about boats
>
> Iain
>
>
Thanks
John
JohnW
"Wally" <m...@here.com> wrote in message
news:8i3Z8.6919$R23.48...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> "JohnW" <q...@cwnet.com> wrote in message news:1026853815.19341.0.nnrp-
>
> > I had hoped the Topaz would be a bit more sporty and would hate to get a
> > boat that didn't present a challenge to master.
>
> For a newbie's perspective, you could have a look at the Topaz threads I
> recently initiated. In summary, I found it rather cramped and
uncomfortable
> (5'10", 11st, not a teenage rock star), kinda slow in light winds, and
ready
> to tip over if I wasn't paying attention. I had lots of dips, probably due
> to a combination of my poor technique and inexperience in spotting a need
to
> balance quickly enough. I ended up frustrated because it was going over so
> quickly, it was hard to work out what went wrong. It's a sit-on, rather
than
> a sit-in boat and looks very much a one-person jobbie. In light winds, I
was
> hunched up in the middle and didn't like it. In a F5, I could get up on
the
> side and lean out a bit.
Yep i think my point of view missed the mark as it now seems obvious my
assumption that you had more power and less stability than you could handle
"just now", was incorrect. Needing F5 just to sit properly means you were
underpowered surely?
Did you have the training 5.64mtr Topaz sail (the stripped one) which would
be hard work in waves for most men . I wouldn't beat up the staff though, if
you look 11st that is quite light and they would have thought you would be
fine. If they have the bigger sail give that a go, it could transform the
experience, or you could fall in more :-). .
(Name and address withheld :-) )
My advice about flat water holds true though
>
> I was out in a Wanderer last night, with one crew, which I enjoyed far
> more - it's probably more suited to my level of (in)experience and maybe
the
> kind of sailing I'm attracted to at the moment. Even if I found the Topaz
> easier to sail, I think I'd still find it cramped and uncomfortable.
>
>
You have time to think about comfort man, time for more power surely :-)
Cheers JohnW
Wally
> Yep i think my point of view missed the mark as it now seems obvious my
> assumption that you had more power and less stability than you could
handle
> "just now", was incorrect. Needing F5 just to sit properly means you were
> underpowered surely?
I dare say it could have worked in a lighter blow as well - just happened
that one session was much lighter and gusting, and one was a fairly steady
F5.
> Did you have the training 5.64mtr Topaz sail (the stripped one) which
would
> be hard work in waves for most men .
Could have been. I'm not sure if they have other sail sizes - one sail is a
single-coloured purple. Sail selection seems to be based on what's attached
to the mast that gets taken from the rack.
> I wouldn't beat up the staff though, if
> you look 11st that is quite light and they would have thought you would be
> fine. If they have the bigger sail give that a go, it could transform the
> experience, or you could fall in more :-). .
> (Name and address withheld :-) )
> My advice about flat water holds true though
I would fall in more. I suspect most of my dips were down to getting caught
in gusts and not making a good job turning (found the centre mainsheet a bit
weird). Anyway, I'll be leaving the Topaz well alone for a good while,
methinks...
> > I was out in a Wanderer last night, with one crew, which I enjoyed far
> > more ...
> You have time to think about comfort man, time for more power surely :-)
It did feel that a bit more sail might be worth a try - we were offered a
genoa but turned it down. My crew had previously been using a Topper as a
diving board, so I think we both wanted to minimise the chance of a dip (our
first sail together and first time in a Wanderer). In retrospect, a genoa
would probably have been a good idea in the F3 that was blowing. Back at the
club, someone suggested that we try and get our hands on a racing mainsail
as well. We'll see what kind of wind is blowing next Monday and take it from
there.
JohnW
> "JohnW" <q...@cwnet.com> wrote in message news:1026899378.1333.0.nnrp-
>
> > Yep i think my point of view missed the mark as it now seems obvious my
> > assumption that you had more power and less stability than you could
> handle
> > "just now", was incorrect. Needing F5 just to sit properly means you
were
> > underpowered surely?
>
> I dare say it could have worked in a lighter blow as well - just happened
> that one session was much lighter and gusting, and one was a fairly steady
> F5.
>
>
> > Did you have the training 5.64mtr Topaz sail (the stripped one) which
> would
> > be hard work in waves for most men .
>
> Could have been. I'm not sure if they have other sail sizes - one sail is
a
> single-coloured purple. Sail selection seems to be based on what's
attached
> to the mast that gets taken from the rack.
Refering to my Topper Brochure the small sail is Red White and Blue
un-battened
The medium, plain Purple un-battened
The Race, Purple but mostly a huge Clear Plastic window with three short
battens.
Just for completeness there is a Fully battened white 9.95mtr but is only
shown on the Duo and Tres 2 man rigs which use a different though
interchangeable Rig. Interestingly i have just noticed on the piccies that
is a Tracked mast where as the Uno variants use a Luff sleeved sail.
>
>
> > I wouldn't beat up the staff though, if
> > you look 11st that is quite light and they would have thought you would
be
> > fine. If they have the bigger sail give that a go, it could transform
the
> > experience, or you could fall in more :-). .
> > (Name and address withheld :-) )
> > My advice about flat water holds true though
>
> I would fall in more. I suspect most of my dips were down to getting
caught
> in gusts and not making a good job turning (found the centre mainsheet a
bit
> weird). Anyway, I'll be leaving the Topaz well alone for a good while,
> methinks...
>
> > > I was out in a Wanderer last night, with one crew, which I enjoyed far
> > > more ...
>
> > You have time to think about comfort man, time for more power surely :-)
>
> It did feel that a bit more sail might be worth a try - we were offered a
> genoa but turned it down. My crew had previously been using a Topper as a
> diving board,
LOL
so I think we both wanted to minimise the chance of a dip (our
> first sail together and first time in a Wanderer). In retrospect, a genoa
> would probably have been a good idea in the F3 that was blowing. Back at
the
> club, someone suggested that we try and get our hands on a racing mainsail
> as well. We'll see what kind of wind is blowing next Monday and take it
from
> there.
>
You see, you will not be happy till you are nearly falling out again. :-)
Still the difference between nearly dumping and actually dumping is a big
difference.
JohnW
>
>
>
>
>
>
Nygel Gardner
John,
I am a reasonably competent Laser sailor (even if a bit overweight
and unfit!) and I borrowed an RS300 from a dealer and sailed Poole Week in
it a couple of years ago with a view to buying one. Well!!!! To say it was
hard work is an understatement! In anything over about a F3 they become
(for me) almost uncrontrollable, especially downwind. Having said that
there a some at our club that are sailed fast and well, I guess it just
takes more swimming than I was prepared to give it! Still, if you like a
challenge I guess the guy from LDC has got it about right!!!!!
Nygel
Nygel Gardner
> Well to be fair to Topper they have the Blaze X which looks promising on
> paper, a racked 10m Main PN 1047 boat but of course you have to pitch that
> against your Vortex or EPS from laser and RS 200 etc with better
pedigrees.
>
>
I have heard that the EPS is no longer in production, although it is
mentioned on the Laser web site, but it does not say the price and by their
own admission it sold 2 boats in 2201!! I don't think this will help the
resale value - a factor often forgotten about when buying newer boats.
The RS 200 is a 2 man boat, so not really comparing like for like.
Nygel
JohnW
> John,
>
> I am a reasonably competent Laser sailor (even if a bit overweight
> and unfit!) and I borrowed an RS300 from a dealer and sailed Poole Week in
> it a couple of years ago with a view to buying one. Well!!!! To say it
was
> hard work is an understatement! In anything over about a F3 they become
> (for me) almost uncrontrollable, especially downwind. Having said that
> there a some at our club that are sailed fast and well, I guess it just
> takes more swimming than I was prepared to give it! Still, if you like a
> challenge I guess the guy from LDC has got it about right!!!!!
>
> Nygel
>
A valuable insight and backs up what the LDC guy said. I take it you stuck
with the Laser then.?
JohnW
Nygel Gardner
"Iain Pendry" <iain@NO_spam.> wrote in message
news:3d34a2ca$0$238$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
>
> but it's a barrel of laughs and it goes like stink in a blow.
Where do you sail? I thought we had them all at our club!!!!!
Nygel
Nygel Gardner
>
> >
> Thanks Nygel
>
> A valuable insight and backs up what the LDC guy said. I take it you stuck
> with the Laser then.?
>
> JohnW
>
an old tatty one I can sail when it's too windy for a) a decent boat b) the
wife!!!!
Nygel
JohnW
"Nygel Gardner" <nygel....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:AbgZ8.10073$Zl6.2...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
I have the Latest Laser Price List and the EPS isn't even mentioned which
took it off my short list. In a way that is my fear with the Vareo, if it
doesn't take off i am left with an oddball with no class to speak of.
I shall be visiting Rutland Water soon to see what the local one-man fleet
is made up of as being my new venue come winter this will have a big effect
on my choice. Of course i expect Lasers will be well represented.
re RS200 yes i muddled, I was thinking RS300 the single hander we talked
about.
JohnW
JohnW
> I went on to a 2 man boat and got an RS200 but I missed the Laser so
brought
> an old tatty one I can sail when it's too windy for a) a decent boat b)
the
> wife!!!!
>
> Nygel
>
>
Do you think the small sail option would help someone make the transition to
the RS300, start with the small sail and then the full race sail in light
conditions and build from there.?
Trouble is it reminds me of people buying the Laser Radial rig and then
never hardly using it.
JohnW
PS Your tatty Laser must have a good sail i find old laser sails take an
awful shape and especially difficult to depower and sometimes undrivable in
a F5-6
Wally
> Just for completeness there is a Fully battened white 9.95mtr but is only
> shown on the Duo and Tres 2 man rigs which use a different though
> interchangeable Rig. Interestingly i have just noticed on the piccies that
> is a Tracked mast where as the Uno variants use a Luff sleeved sail.
Yup, sleeved luffs on all the Topi I tried. The one I got for a race was
identified as a 'Uno Race'. I came last (of 6), while the boat that won was
a Topaz 'S/H Single'.
> > ... My crew had previously been using a Topper as a diving board,
> LOL
I try. :-)
> You see, you will not be happy till you are nearly falling out again. :-)
> Still the difference between nearly dumping and actually dumping is a big
> difference.
I reckon so. If I had been playing silly buggers in the Topaz, I wouldn't
have been so dispirited. But I was just sitting there, minding my own
business, guv'nor, honest. It's easier to get to a ledge by climbing up from
the bottom than jumping from the top, and I think the Wanderer is a better
starting point. A huge turnaround in the enjoyment factor, and that can only
be good for learning and improving.
Nygel Gardner
> >
>
> Do you think the small sail option would help someone make the transition
to
> the RS300, start with the small sail and then the full race sail in light
> conditions and build from there.?
>
> Trouble is it reminds me of people buying the Laser Radial rig and then
> never hardly using it.
>
> JohnW
It might help for training purposes - not sure, but from a racing point
of view you have to use the correct sail according to your weight, although
there is a small window (around 10st I think) where you can choose which
size sail to use.
Laser Radials seem to be a god idea for the smaller sailor using them
all the time but never seem to really work for the heavier (normal!) helm
using them in strong winds. Prehaps this is where the idea for the 300
rules come from.
Nygel
Nygel Gardner
>
The Laser may be far from ideal (although the new controls have made it much
better) but you can't get away from the fact that if you want some decent
competition there are loads of them around!!
Nygel
Simon Brooke
> I have heard that the EPS is no longer in production, although it
> is
> mentioned on the Laser web site, but it does not say the price and by
> their
> own admission it sold 2 boats in 2201!
Hey, any boat that's still selling at all more than two centuries after
it first went into production is doing well.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
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M- !d- PS++ PE-- Y+ PGP !t 5? X+ !R b++ !DI D G- e++ h*(-) r++ y+++
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Iain Pendry
Attenborough, Nr Derby. It's the only one there...
Iain Pendry
>
> As for Single handed sport boat that could pootle well you are right but
see
> http://www.ldcracingsailboats.co.uk/rsvareo.asp . If the description is to
> be believed it is fastish but stable enough for a casual crew member
> occasionally, allegedly.
>
> Also having been frustrated by the difficulty of finding downwind speed in
a
> Laser the Spinnaker fitted to the RS Vareo competition rig intrigues me, i
> dont see why two man boats should have all the fun downwind.
>
>
I've not seen one before, so I looked at the link! I think you'd be daft
not to try and get a test sail, it looks exactly like what you're looking
for, and if where you sail has enough water it looks like a good laugh. As
you say, the only problem could be plummetting resale costs and difficultly
getting spares if they don't take off.
JohnW
> >
>
> The Laser may be far from ideal (although the new controls have made it
much
> better) but you can't get away from the fact that if you want some decent
> competition there are loads of them around!!
>
> Nygel
>
>
is.
Its the old conundrum. the boat is blessed with Olympic status and a class
that is unrivelled, but that has kept the boat from being developed.
I have come to the veiw that its basically good little hull ruined by a
nasty crude rig. You would think the worlds best selling boat could get a
nice fully battened smooth shapely sail in a makeover. It is supposed to be
a Race boat after all.
Oh well rant over, perhaps i should start a renegade class and market an
upgrade kit.
JohnW
Nygel Gardner
John, I'm trying to e-mail you off-group regarding the Vario but just get
returned mail. what is your correct address??
Nygel
Nygel Gardner
I agree, but this opens up a whole new can of worms, when does a '1design'
class which is keeping up with the times, become a 'development' class? A
very fine line!
Nygel
Roger
> Its the old conundrum. the boat is blessed with Olympic status and a class
> that is unrivelled, but that has kept the boat from being developed.
> I have come to the veiw that its basically good little hull ruined by a
> nasty crude rig. You would think the worlds best selling boat could get a
> nice fully battened smooth shapely sail in a makeover. It is supposed to
be
> a Race boat after all.
>
> Oh well rant over, perhaps i should start a renegade class and market an
> upgrade kit.
John
Have you considered that maybe the reason the Laser is by far and away the
most successful and popular dinghy ever designed, could be due to the fact
it hasn't gone through several upgrades, particularly to the rig.
While you refer to it as a "nasty crude rig" and few would argue that it is
less than perfect, it is functional and can when well set produce
significant power.
People tend to love or hate the Laser, but the competition is second to
none, and the tactical racing you can enjoy is far and away the best in the
world. I know it is always fashionable to knock success, but don't blame the
Olympic status, the Laser is a relatively new Olympic class, and this status
has made little or no impression on the popularity of the class at ground
roots club level.
I have no idea where dinghy sailing would be today without the Laser, that
could be a long thread in its own right, but I doubt there would be as many
dinghies on the water without it.
Roger
Roger Battersby ro...@ukdinghyracing.com
UK Dinghy Racing http://www.ukdinghyracing.com
JohnW
My perspective is someone who is relatively new to the sport. I love the
Laser all i am saying, is it could be so easily made a bit better. In fact
what i love most is every one else has got one and i can play at the
weekends. I have no sentimental attachment any particular bit of rig.
I have no idea of the real reasons why improvements have not been made from
time to time. But i would have thought the manufactures and the class could
agree to a review say every 10 years or so.
> John
> Have you considered that maybe the reason the Laser is by far and away the
> most successful and popular dinghy ever designed, could be due to the fact
> it hasn't gone through several upgrades, particularly to the rig.
Of course it could be, but i doubt its certain. I give my reasons below.
> While you refer to it as a "nasty crude rig" and few would argue that it
is
> less than perfect, it is functional and can when well set produce
> significant power.
Well that is all true but we could have better than functional, that's all i
am saying.
If the International Laser Class could organise the 2001 change to the
regulation rig they could organise a change to the sail. We differ in the
way we think the people who race the class will react to the change. Of
course they could stick to the old regs and presumably be uncompetitive. But
how many old sails to you see being raced in class events anyway, how many
boats soldier on with the old Kicker despite no actual boat speed
disadvantage. Of the serious class events i have been to i do not think i
have seen a boat out older than 4 years old. Of course the catch is every
one would have to upgrade together and i think that is the real reason it
wont happen, despite believing that the active core of racers would consider
that, a routine financial outlay.
By my admittedly dubious definition it is the less active casual racers,
many not even class members, who as part of club laser fleets may not want
to spend out.
> People tend to love or hate the Laser, but the competition is second to
> none, and the tactical racing you can enjoy is far and away the best in
the
> world. I know it is always fashionable to knock success, but don't blame
the
> Olympic status, the Laser is a relatively new Olympic class, and this
status
> has made little or no impression on the popularity of the class at ground
> roots club level.
Well i just have to defer to your greater knowledge on these things.
> I have no idea where dinghy sailing would be today without the Laser, that
> could be a long thread in its own right, but I doubt there would be as
many
> dinghies on the water without it.
Trouble is if you are right the equipment gets stuck in a time warp, and
eventually that will kill the class anyway as young blood will flow to
better performance equipment.
Bye the way, love the Website.
JohnW
Peter Thomas
<q...@cwnet.com> writes
snip
>PS Your tatty Laser must have a good sail i find old laser sails take an
>awful shape and especially difficult to depower and sometimes undrivable in
>a F5-6
>
>
Which is why we've just been to Rooster Sailing for a nearly-new sail.
Even got GBR on it.
--
Peter Thomas
JohnW
You do realise that everyone will "know" your a hot shot. :-)
Think of all that attention you will get at the start.
JohnW
"Peter Thomas" <pe...@godthoms.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rRFar6Hp...@godthoms.demon.co.uk...
Peter Thomas
<q...@cwnet.com> writes
>GBR Very Flash
>
>You do realise that everyone will "know" your a hot shot. :-)
>
>Think of all that attention you will get at the start.
>
Usually sailed by our twenty-five year old in a mixed fleet of
twenty-odd where everyone more-or-less knows everyone.
A nice thought, though.
>
--
Peter Thomas
Nygel Gardner
"Peter Thomas" <pe...@godthoms.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rRFar6Hp...@godthoms.demon.co.uk...
That's because it's been in a national competion and is
knackered!!!!
Nygel
Nygel Gardner
"> > John
> > Have you considered that maybe the reason the Laser is by far and away
the
> > most successful and popular dinghy ever designed, could be due to the
fact
> > it hasn't gone through several upgrades, particularly to the rig.> >
> > Roger Battersby ro...@ukdinghyracing.com
> > UK Dinghy Racing http://www.ukdinghyracing.com
>
JohnW Wrote:-
> Trouble is if you are right the equipment gets stuck in a time warp, and
> eventually that will kill the class anyway as young blood will flow to
> better performance equipment.
> .
>
> JohnW
>
> >
> >
> I have to agree with what Roger says above but let's not forget the Laser
has had a few mods over the years:-
Hull bouancy - from expanded polystyrene to air bags
Rudder - from wood to plastic
Centre Board - same
Grab Rails - same
Top Section - less pop-rivets
Boom - strengthening insert
Sail - from 3.2oz to 3.8oz
Control Lines - purchases permitted changed many times
Control Lines - new pulleys and jammers introduced
In fact the only bit that hasn't changed, I think, is the bottom mast
section!!
Having said all that I must agree with Roger when he says it is so popular
because it is still BASICALLY the same as it always has been . However as
John rightly points out we can not stay in a time warp. Does this mean that
Laser have got it about right?? As I said in an earlier post it is a very
fine line between 'keeping up with the times' and becomming a 'development
class'
Peter Thomas
Gardner <nygel....@ntlworld.com> writes
Against the local competition it seems to be adequate.
--
Peter Thomas