Smallest boat for a circum navigation of the UK
Nghost
once round England via loch ness and the second around the UK.
As I live in Oxford I would like to keep the boat at home so has to be trailable.
I can accommodate a boat up to about 25 foot but realistically something smaller would stave of a divorce ;-).
My thoughts have ranged from a swift 18 , Etap 21i to the 26ft power sailors(probably too big).
Cost is not a big issue at this smaller end of the market. It would need to accommodate 2.
I have lots of experience (30+ years) in open boats, powered and sail but only about 100 hours in Yachts + day skipper.
I am planning the shorter navigation in 7 years time and plan to purchase a suitable boat in the next 2-3 years.
Any advice welcome.
Nigel
Simon Brooke
There are plenty of small inexpenive boats which would be up to this
sort of trip - certainly via the Caledonian Canal (the Pentland Firth
and up towards Shetland are a bit more taxing). The boats used in the
early years if the Mini Transatlantic are worth looking at - e.g. this
design, which won the first Mini Transat
<URL:http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=SP22>. If
you're *very* adventurous the current generation Classe Mini (Open 650)
boats are raced in very serious sea conditions... by lunatics. See
<URL:http://www.xs4all.nl/~blvrd/>. But these boats are quite expensive
even second hand.
If you fancy something a bit more sturdy and traditional, Iain
Oughtred's Grey Seal design might be worth a look
<URL:http://independenceboatworks.com/GreySeal.htm> - I know the web
site is American but Oughtred is Scottish and his plans are available
in this country.
Obviously, there are plenty of production glassfibre yachts available
second hand. I'd look for a well sheltered cockpit, sea kindly hull
shape, and easily managed rig as priorities.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; when in the shit, the wise man plants courgettes
Keelworm
Can I come along mister???
sounds like fun. shame you're restricted to trailer sailers, but what about
a small westerly???
PG
--
ALTERNATIVE SAILING TERMS - Seabag:
Aging mermaid.
http://www.Love2Sail.co.uk
David Pocock
>I have this dream of a circumnavigation X2
>once round England via loch ness and the second around the UK.
>As I live in Oxford I would like to keep the boat at home so has to be
>trailable.
>I can accommodate a boat up to about 25 foot but realistically
>something smaller would stave of a divorce ;-).
>My thoughts have ranged from a swift 18 , Etap 21i to the 26ft power
>sailors(probably too big).
The Etap 22i is strongly built and is probably as good a trailer sailer
as you can buy. (OK - I own one so I am biased.) They tend to be highly
regarded in the Trail Sail Association. But inevitably - like all
trailer sailers - it is a light displacement yacht. A fixed keel heavier
displacement boat would be much more suitable for what you have in mind.
But you might be planning to do the trip in many small stages over
several years - in which case a trailer sailor might fit the bill (if
you could work out the logistics of suitable slips).
David
Stefan
It is certainly possible, particularly if you have plenty of time and
can choose your weather slot. I've been off Lands End in F7 and breaking
waves in a 33 footer and personally wouldn't much fancy it in those
conditions in anything smaller.
Whether it would be enjoyable is something only you can answer. It will
be slow and wet and I guarantee that at times you would be wondering
what you are doing out there. If you feel like that 5% of the time,
that's fine - if it is 95% - not so fine. It is almost inevitable you
will experience severe weather at some point. You also need to judge
whether you can handle the sleep deprivation; on a boat that size you
will be short-handed.
I personally feel you need a lot more experience in something closer to
this kind of sailing to understand what you would be letting yourself in
for, and to develop the experience and judgement to take on a serious
voyage in a small boat. Try to get as much sailing as you can on others
people's yachts before you buy. There are plenty of people looking for
crew if you look around. The RORC and JOG crewlists are one way if
racing appeals at all, and because race boats tend to go out when most
crusing folk will decide to stay in harbour, it is a way to get heavy
weather experience.
For myself, it is a personal ambition to sail round the Britain and
Ireland, but I wouldn't want to do it in a boat the size you are talking
about. I've been sailing 20 years; done 3 Fastnet races and a load of
other offshore sailing, mostly racing, some double-handed. I think I
have some idea what it would be like! But that is my choice, it doesn't
have to be yours. Just be clear that this would be a major undertaking
and potentially life-threatening.
Simon Brooke
Brooke ('si...@jasmine.org.uk') wrote:
> in message <c6lbb0$e64$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Nghost ('Ngh...@no.way')
> wrote:
>
>> I have this dream of a circumnavigation X2
>> once round England via loch ness and the second around the UK.
>> As I live in Oxford I would like to keep the boat at home so has to
>> be trailable. I can accommodate a boat up to about 25 foot but
>> realistically something smaller would stave of a divorce ;-).
>> My thoughts have ranged from a swift 18 , Etap 21i to the 26ft power
>> sailors(probably too big).
> Obviously, there are plenty of production glassfibre yachts available
> second hand. I'd look for a well sheltered cockpit, sea kindly hull
> shape, and easily managed rig as priorities.
Oh, two extra things:
A folkboat would be ideal, if no longer very fashionable. Sturdy and
very seakindly, and given those features reasonably fast. Not that much
accommodation. See <URL:http://www.folkboat.co.uk/>,
<URL:http://www.folkboat.dk/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=e_nyfolkboat.htm&&cart_id=4153191_29512>
Although I'm a catamaran sailer, I would not recommend a catamaran for
this, because at this sort of size you get much more usable
accomodation in a single hull.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Here lies Tony Blair.
Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me.
Vasco
Ireland 2 handed race. The crews said they found their off watch time was
more comfortably spend on the weather deck than listening to the noise down
below. They were at sea for 4-6 days legs between the four stops. And of
course they could pick their weather as you will be able to do.
So your plan is basically feasible and certainly not daft. Ellen Mc went
round in her Corribee, but I do not know how long she took.
"Stefan" <do...@spam.me> wrote in message
news:c6lmou$607$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
the q
"Nghost" <Ngh...@no.way> wrote in message news:c6lbb0$e64$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
http://www.bluemoment.com/voyages.html
IIRC, A Caprice called Shrimpy was sailed round the world by Shane Acton.
The story of which was badly made into a film called Dove.
Also I think Frank Dye did it in a Wayfarer Dinghy (in several separate
trips) if you fancy the divorce..
The Q
Stefan
says...
> It used to be quite common for quarter tonners to do the Round Britain and
> Ireland 2 handed race.
However in these more risk-averse days they would not be allowed to.
Their SSSN would now be considered much too low. I half-seriously looked
at buying a J/92 to do some of the longer 2-handed races but found we
would not make the required SSSN. (For those who have not encountered
it, SSSN is "Stability Screening System Number", which is a rough-and-
ready prediction of how resistant a boat is to knock-down.)
JnJ
> Any advice welcome.
>
>
single-hander who was happily doing a circumnavigation in a Wing 25
footer. I have met up with him since ashore and he had had no particular
problems. Mind you, he had six months to do the trip.
--
Jim
Tee
It has been done in a Wayfarer.....
Steve Lee
Shane a Brit sailed Shrimpy aka Super Shrimp, details are in his 2 books,
"Shrimpy" and "Shrimpy Sails Again", Dove was sailed by an American, Robin
Lee-Graham which was made into a film..
Regards
Steve,
Avid Shane Acton Fan
"the q" <theqno...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pCxjc.35488$h44.5...@stones.force9.net...
Simon Brooke
('do...@spam.me') wrote:
Yes, but just because you can't race doesn't mean you can't go. Yet.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.
Simon Brooke
('theqno...@yahoo.com') wrote:
> IIRC, A Caprice called Shrimpy was sailed round the world by Shane
> Acton. The story of which was badly made into a film called Dove.
No, Robin Lee Johnston sailed round the world in two boats both called
Dove, and that was later made (badly) into a film called Dove. Shane
Acton sailed round the world in Shrimpy but that wasn't made into a
film.
> Also I think Frank Dye did it in a Wayfarer Dinghy (in several
> separate trips) if you fancy the divorce..
Frank Dye has sailed a Wayfarer to Norway and IIRC Iceland, but not
round the world. Somebody has sailed a Drascombe Lugger from the UK to
New Zealand. Rory McDougall sailed round the world in a 21 foot Wharram
cat. Small boats can be adequately seaworthy for long distance open
water work, but will be cramped. Furthermore, most of these
circumnavigations were done by fairly easy routes, and the waters off
Shetland are moderately tough even by world standards.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
to err is human, to lisp divine
;; attributed to Kim Philby, oddly enough.
Stefan
si...@jasmine.org.uk says...
> in message <c6m8vs$ga5$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk>, Stefan
> ('do...@spam.me') wrote:
>
> > In article <108308758...@ersa.uk.clara.net>,
> > vas...@nospam.invalid says...
> >> It used to be quite common for quarter tonners to do the Round
> >> Britain and Ireland 2 handed race.
> >
> > However in these more risk-averse days they would not be allowed to.
> > Their SSSN would now be considered much too low. I half-seriously
> > looked at buying a J/92 to do some of the longer 2-handed races but
> > found we would not make the required SSSN. (For those who have not
> > encountered it, SSSN is "Stability Screening System Number", which is
> > a rough-and- ready prediction of how resistant a boat is to
> > knock-down.)
>
> Yes, but just because you can't race doesn't mean you can't go. Yet.
>
>
I didn't say it did.
John Banana
I would have been happy doing the same trip in my previous boat, a 7m
trailable Extravert, and I would also be confident in similar sized
boats, ie small Hunters, Etaps or Beneteaus.
Sea conditions round any part of the UK can get very unfriendly, they
are just more likely to happen in the North of Scotland. However,
there are so many places you could stop and seek shelter in a small
boat (especially a lift keel that can take the ground) that your
proposed trip in a small boat should not cause undue concern. In some
situations you will be safer in a small boat that can get into a
shallow haven for shelter where a deep keeled boat will have to
continue on.
With a small boat you need to be well prepared, and have plenty of
time. Available boltholes and weather forecasts are more important
than for a more seaworthy bigger boat, but armed with good information
you never need to set out in conditions where there will be an
unacceptable risk.
Pentland Firth and the Shetlands area is part of our coast with a
fearsome reputation, but again, to be safe all it takes is preparation
and time. When we went through we waited for small tides and calm
weather. Despite all our worries it was a simple and uneventful safe
passage (even a bit of an anti-climax).
A couple of other things to consdider:
Going via the Caledonian Canal makes the trip shorter and easier, but
you really do miss out the very best scenery that our coast has to
offer. If you do go via this route, then consider sailing as far as
Lochinver, and then back to the canal. This way you get the best bit
twice.
It is not a cheap trip. To do it safely you will need a wide selection
of charts and pilots. This will cost £1k to £2k alone.
Despite the expense, time and sometimes frustration and unpleasant
conditions, and the seemingly endless straight low East coast, it is a
fantastic trip, marvellous scenery, you get to see many places that
you would not make by land because they are out of the way, and well
worth doing. Get that small boat and get going!
the q
"Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:7q03m1-...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <pCxjc.35488$h44.5...@stones.force9.net>, the q
> ('theqno...@yahoo.com') wrote:
>
> > IIRC, A Caprice called Shrimpy was sailed round the world by Shane
> > Acton. The story of which was badly made into a film called Dove.
>
> No, Robin Lee Johnston sailed round the world in two boats both called
> Dove, and that was later made (badly) into a film called Dove. Shane
> Acton sailed round the world in Shrimpy but that wasn't made into a
> film.
>
> > Also I think Frank Dye did it in a Wayfarer Dinghy (in several
> > separate trips) if you fancy the divorce..
>
The Q
Mike
On a similar note....
I and a friend suggested to Racing Sailboats that they lend us a K6
(dinghy with keel like a modern Flying 15) when they were first
produced that we would sail round the UK as an adventure and a
publicity stunt for their new boat.
They refused because they said they couldn't afford it and also
commented that someone else had made the same offer.
It would be interesting to know how many (if any) UK circumnavigations
have been made by boats classed as dinghys and what the dinghys were.
I'm sure it should be possible - after all Wayfarers go all over the
place including Iceland / Channel Islands.
Mike
John Wilson
wrote:
>in message <qms1m1-...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk>, Simon
>Brooke ('si...@jasmine.org.uk') wrote:
>
>> in message <c6lbb0$e64$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Nghost ('Ngh...@no.way')
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have this dream of a circumnavigation X2
>>> once round England via loch ness and the second around the UK.
>>> As I live in Oxford I would like to keep the boat at home so has to
>>> be trailable. I can accommodate a boat up to about 25 foot but
>>> realistically something smaller would stave of a divorce ;-).
>>> My thoughts have ranged from a swift 18 , Etap 21i to the 26ft power
>>> sailors(probably too big).
>
>> Obviously, there are plenty of production glassfibre yachts available
>> second hand. I'd look for a well sheltered cockpit, sea kindly hull
>> shape, and easily managed rig as priorities.
If I was doing this on a budget, (which I have no intention of doing)
I'd go one of two ways, in order of preference:
1) Laser or similar fastish planing dinghy, maybe with a mod to the
sail to allow a reef other than 'rotate-mast'. Much faster than most
small yachts, especially offwind. Sailed in fast daysailing mode.
Lasers don't break. What you save on the boat (Łthousands) will keep
you ashore in comfort waiting for weather, particularly beam winds.
This assumes you are fit and can sail fast dinghies, and can also
right repeated capsizes if necesssary. On good days you can make
really remarkable progress. You can beach almost anywhere except not
in obviously dangerous locations. (You do have to know what these are)
2) Buy an old cheap Flying 15 and foam the bow and stern, (and all
other space) to provide total buoyancy. Also fast, even more so than
the Laser, but much less flexiibility in coming ashore. If you
capsize it will right itself.
3) If you really insist on having a boat with a lid, look at the
ballast ratio on any older small cruiser. If it isn't approaching
50%, forget it. Old Hunter 19/Europas and Corribees are good. Ellen
McA did the circuit via Caledonian Canal in a Corribee
John Wilson
jwilsonNO*SP...@yachtsnet.co.uk
Remove characters from e-mail address to reply
www.yachtsnet.co.uk - full service online yacht
brokerage with full details and multiple photos
of all boats. Free classified adverts for small
boats and genuinely useful marine links.
Simon Brooke
('jwi...@no-spam-please-yachtsnet.co.uk') wrote:
> 3) If you really insist on having a boat with a lid, look at the
> ballast ratio on any older small cruiser. If it isn't approaching
> 50%, forget it. Old Hunter 19/Europas and Corribees are good. Ellen
> McA did the circuit via Caledonian Canal in a Corribee
I used to have a Hunter 19 (on Ullswater) and loved it, but it's not a
boat to take round Britain IMHO. The guy who tried to sail one across
the Atlantic capsized it and it stayed inverted. He wasn't able to
right it and was lucky to be rescued.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
"The result is a language that... not even its mother could
love. Like the camel, Common Lisp is a horse designed by
committee. Camels do have their uses."
;; Scott Fahlman, 7 March 1995
TB
"Mike" <nospa...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:vquv80d497cls5hfo...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:06:22 +0100, Nghost <Ngh...@no.way> wrote:
>
> >I have this dream of a circumnavigation X2
> >once round England via loch ness and the second around the UK.
> >As I live in Oxford I would like to keep the boat at home so has to be
trailable.
> >I can accommodate a boat up to about 25 foot but realistically something
smaller would stave of a divorce ;-).
> >My thoughts have ranged from a swift 18 , Etap 21i to the 26ft power
sailors(probably too big).
> >Cost is not a big issue at this smaller end of the market. It would need
to accommodate 2.
> >I have lots of experience (30+ years) in open boats, powered and sail but
only about 100 hours in Yachts + day skipper.
> >I am planning the shorter navigation in 7 years time and plan to purchase
a suitable boat in the next 2-3 years.
> >Any advice welcome.
> >
> >Nigel
I'm going to reccommend a Vivacity 650 (6.5m, just under 22 feet), because
(I have one). It has 44% ballast ratio, easy handled rig and bilge keels.
Draft is only two foot six inches. This means you can get into the shallows
for shelter and take the ground overnight without the expense of a marina or
harbour. Further, when compared to a swing/lift keel, you get loads of room
inside which is very important for such long trips.
It is 4 berth but for 2 is comfy, the double berth in the fore has acres of
storage under.
Further, they were built like tanks, three shrouds to each side and two back
stays. Even if the the forestay fails the mast will be held by the forrard
stays. (Don't think it'll sail but at least it won't come down on your
head!)
The windows are small and solid and won't cave in a heavy sea, the rudder is
through the cockpit floor and stronger than a transom hung one. You get a
proper sea toilet and a three burner cooker too.
Powered by outboard means no loss of room inside, engine easy to fix, remove
and clear the prop.
Finally they can be picked up a reasonable cost, say 3-4 k for a good 'un.
Get one, have fun!
TonyB
John Wilson
wrote:
>in message <4090142a...@news.btclick.com>, John Wilson
>('jwi...@no-spam-please-yachtsnet.co.uk') wrote:
>
>> 3) If you really insist on having a boat with a lid, look at the
>> ballast ratio on any older small cruiser. If it isn't approaching
>> 50%, forget it. Old Hunter 19/Europas and Corribees are good. Ellen
>> McA did the circuit via Caledonian Canal in a Corribee
>
>I used to have a Hunter 19 (on Ullswater) and loved it, but it's not a
>boat to take round Britain IMHO. The guy who tried to sail one across
>the Atlantic capsized it and it stayed inverted. He wasn't able to
>right it and was lucky to be rescued.
In the 1972 OSTAR single-handed transatlantic race David Blagden
finished in a Hunter 19 "Willing Griffin" - which remains the smallest
yacht ever to finish in this long-running race series
I think you're referring to a couple of yeras later, when three young
sailors attempted to race each other across the Atlantic in Hunter
19s. There were several inversions, between them but I don't think
you'll find the H19s ever stayed inverted. After multiple inversions
(each of which righted fast) they gave up.
I'd much rather do the proposed trip in a Hunter 19 than a Vivacity
650, as TonyB proposed. The Hunter is substantially faster, and has
very good ultimate stability, whereas the beamier, shallower Vivacity
would certainly have a fair range of inverted stability. In most
other respects the V650 is the nicer coastal cruiser, but you are
looking at longish stretches of serious water, including the North
Cornwall/Devon coast and the Pentland Firth.
As this project is a multi-stop-and wait-for-weather game, I still
stick with my unorthodox proposal of a fastish dinghy.
>--
>si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
> "The result is a language that... not even its mother could
> love. Like the camel, Common Lisp is a horse designed by
> committee. Camels do have their uses."
> ;; Scott Fahlman, 7 March 1995
>
>
John Wilson
Nghost
I will have plenty of time for both the short and long circumnavigations, as I hope to have got early retirement (or just quit work by then).
Unfortunately due to a back injury the dinghy is not an option ( I owned a Wayfarer for 6 years and never capsized it once even in a 7!).
I have the book "Very Willing Griffin" which is both inspirering and a little frightening. I had thought of the Hunter 19 just wonder if there was enough room for two for such a long trip. I have also thought about a MacGregor 19 seems to have a lot of room, and can really shift if needed, but may be a bit tender with water ballast.
Of course the other option is to keep a bigger boat on the Thames near Oxford but that's about 4 days from the sea.
Keelworm
This little number could be a go-er.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1297&item=2476328220&rd=1
PG
--
ALTERNATIVE SAILING TERMS - Zephyr:
Warm pleasant breeze. Named after the mythical Greek god of wishful
thinking, false hopes and unrelaiable forecasts.
http://www.Love2Sail.co.uk
Simon Brooke
> Very many thanks for all the advice.
> I will have plenty of time for both the short and long
> circumnavigations, as I hope to have got early retirement (or just
> quit work by then). Unfortunately due to a back injury the dinghy is
> not an option ( I owned a Wayfarer for 6 years and never capsized it
> once even in a 7!). I have the book "Very Willing Griffin" which is
> both inspirering and a little frightening. I had thought of the Hunter
> 19 just wonder if there was enough room for two for such a long trip.
> I have also thought about a MacGregor 19 seems to have a lot of room,
> and can really shift if needed, but may be a bit tender with water
> ballast.
The Hunter sails extremely nicely but has a big open cockpit and not a
lot of shelter. And frankly, though I had one for three years and liked
her a lot she was not a boat I would have wanted to take off-shore.
However, on the accommodation front I think you would be OK if spartan
for two people who got on well - and if you don't get on well no small
boat will be big enough.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; in faecibus sapiens rheum propagabit
Jimbo
Hurley 22 ?
Heavy, but not too heavy to be untrailable.
Good in rough weather
Small enough to keep at home
Has sailed Atlantic and Pacific (and even across from Portsmouth to
Bembridge :-) )
Jimbo.
martin
Hm Bembridge! So it can go anywhere and survive appalling conditions
too :-)
John Wilson
>>Hurley 22 ?
>>Heavy, but not too heavy to be untrailable.
>>Good in rough weather
>>Small enough to keep at home
>>Has sailed Atlantic and Pacific (and even across from Portsmouth to
>>Bembridge :-) )
look at Hunter 701 - hydraulic lift keel. There are probably lots of
other choices, also with proper ballast ratios. Forget the
'powersailer' McGregors - unless you want to burn a lot of fuel round
the coast - in which case why not get a good 5.5 to 6.5 metre RIB and
fit twin 40 hp outboards?
TB
Reminds me of that joke:
A bigwig compared Basra to Southampton. A serving soldier is reported to
have said, " Either he's never been to Basra nor to Southampton - there are
no prostitutes and people are shooting at us - it's more like Portsmouth.
TonyB
PS Weather forecast for Bembridge - If you can see Bembridge form Portsmouth
it's going to rain....
and if you can't, it's raining already.
Cheers!
Mike James
> It used to be quite common for quarter tonners to do the Round Britain and
> Ireland 2 handed race. The crews said they found their off watch time was
> more comfortably spend on the weather deck than listening to the noise down
> below. They were at sea for 4-6 days legs between the four stops. And of
> course they could pick their weather as you will be able to do.
> So your plan is basically feasible and certainly not daft. Ellen Mc went
> round in her Corribee, but I do not know how long she took.
The Ruffian 23 is such a boat : I was told it was designed for the Round
Ireland race.
Certainly a solidly built boat. Rather larger mast section and rigging
than you would expect to see on a modern small boat.
These boats are still raced round the cans in Dun Laoghaire in Ireland.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
>Very many thanks for all the advice.
Only if you are /very/ good friends at the beginning and don't mind
not being after a fairly short while, I'd say. The Hunter 19 is a
good boat and known to be a good seaboat - one crossed the Atlantic,
of course - but it's small down below. Capable of going around Britain,
I'd say, but not comfortable for the purpose.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
Mouette-Solitaire
Have you looked at the Achilles 24 - a superb little boat, especially the
triple bilge keel version.
There are plenty of them around and they can benefit from a bit of
maintenance and T.L.C.
You may be able to pick one up with a trailer for a reasonable price.
Currently planning to do the trip next Spring with our Achilles.
Regards
Rocyn Williams