Non-reversing sail boat - how to reverse it?!
Justin C
find much wrong with it (having seen another recent survey).
The boat has a long keel with attached rudder. These things are
notoriously bad in reverse - I've never tried, but all I ever hear about
long-keeled boats is that "they don't go backwards". This hasn't been a
problem for the current owner, he keeps it on a floating mooring. That
isn't an option I'm going to have, it's going to be in a marina with
pontoons and finger-berths. I can ask for an 'end', but they seem to
keep these for larger vessels and catamarans, so I don't hold much hope.
Somehow this boat is going to have to go backwards at some time.
I believe that going forward into the berth would be the best option,
while I've got steerage use it! That means backing out. I'm thinking
that perhaps I can reverse out keeping a line to a cleat on the pontoon,
and pivot around that cleat. Once clear I could then slip the line and
I'm off. How does that sound? This would obviously require a finger
berth to be on the landward side of me so that when I pivot out I'm
facing the right way.
I could become a bit of a nuisance here in the next few weeks. I'm not
going to apologise because I think this group could use more discussion!
Justin.
--
Justin C, by the sea.
broadssailor
chris
I bought my long keel Nicholson 26' a few years ago and like you was
concerned about manoeuvring astern.
I did a lot better than anticipated and didn't have any problems until a
lot later when I became a little over confident and a bit too impatient.
What usually works for me to reverse out of my berth is to give the
engine a lot of revs astern until the boat starts moving astern (while
stationary, I can impede effects of prop walk with a warp or boat hook)
then immediately take the engine out of gear so the boat is making way
only under its own momentum the boat will respond slowly but predictably
to the rudder at the low speed. Once your heavy long keeler is moving
it carries its way for a considerable distance and will not be blown
around like a high freeboard lightweight. Ahead is relatively easy with
propwash over the rudder and the boat will turn almost on its own centre
aided by propwalk and only slightly less well against the propwalk. If
things are tight the same procedure of short burst(s) in gear and glide
to steer slowly usually seems to work.
If you are manoeuvring in strong cross currents or heavy winds it is
difficult (I wouldn't claim to have mastered this yet). Shunting
endlessly back and forth will make the boat very succeptable to the
current and wind. So practice a lot preferably with the aid of a crew
with a boathook and fender, good luck.
ChrisR
The Real Doctor
> find much wrong with it (having seen another recent survey).
>
> The boat has a long keel with attached rudder. These things are
> notoriously bad in reverse - I've never tried, but all I ever hear about
> long-keeled boats is that "they don't go backwards". This hasn't been a
> problem for the current owner, he keeps it on a floating mooring. That
> isn't an option I'm going to have, it's going to be in a marina with
> pontoons and finger-berths.
As you suggest, you can do an awful lot with suitably placed warps.
Don't assume that you have to motor everywhere!
> I could become a bit of a nuisance here in the next few weeks. I'm not
> going to apologise because I think this group could use more discussion!
Go for it. Get us all enthused for the season!
Ian
Andy Champ
>
> It's a knack. Try these two links.
>
> http://www.ed-hamilton.com/charter-connection-Pastfeatures/articles/2006.04.ed1.html
>
> http://www.captainjacksailing.com/backingyoursailboatunderpower.html
The seond one contains this paragraph:
"Another trick you can employ while still making way (coasting backward)
is to employ a short burst of forward throttle against a turned rudder.
The burst of water thrown against a turned rudder will push your stern
starboard or port according to the set of the rudder.
This forward thrust, however, causes the backward coasting to be greatly
reduced. It takes practice to employ this without completely stopping
backward coasting."
I used this to good effect on a 60ft narrowboat. I've also used it to
some extent on our club rescue boats - but it doesn't work as well, I
suspect due to the lower polar moment of inertia. It might work for you.
If all else fails, use a quant!
Andy
Justin C
Most of what was covered is basic, any-boat stuff. I was particularly
looking for tips on close-quarter manouvering, in reverse, with a long
keeled boat.
Thanks anyway, it's always good to read stuff that you think you already
know, having it expressed in a different way helps re-enforce
understanding.
Justin C
Thank you, Chris, that's useful stuff. I'm glad to hear that you did a
lot better than you anticipated - that bodes well for my anticipating
disaster!
I'm just going to have to take my time, and pay special attention to
what you say about taking off power once there is movement - I don't
want to have to be trying to stop in a hurry. I just hope I get steerage
at low speed. The keel on the boat we're in the process of buying has a
cut-away to the front of the keel, so while it's long by most standards,
it's not as long as your Nicholson.
Paul Cooper
Years ago, my Dad had a Halcyon 27 - very traditional long keel
design. The fundamental trick was to plan all movements so you only
needed to go in a straight line astern! You simply wont turn quickly
in reverse, and some boats steer unpredictably. However, even fin
keelers like my present boat aren't all that wonderful in reverse;
long keels aren't that much worse, and like most things it is a
question of getting used to your boat.
Mike Coon
> The keel on the boat we're in the process of
> buying has a cut-away to the front of the keel, so while it's long by
> most standards, it's not as long as your Nicholson.
>
> Justin.
There's been some discussion of tese problems inrecent Yachting Monthly.
(It's not something I know anything about personally; I'm more used to
Average White (GRP) Boats on flotilla and charter holidays). But a cut-away
forefoot may make the bows susceptible to being blown off in any crosswind.
It might actually be better to reverse into a marina on the basis that you
can start reversing wherever you like to get the prop-walk finsished with
where there is plenty of room. Then leaving is easier since you have to
start from stationary there...
Mike.
--
If reply address is invalid, remove spurious "@" and substitute "plus"
where needed.
IanM
manoeuvrability astern is not a strong point :-) but the large rudder is
fairly effective. A long keel with an offset propeller and a small
rudder could be much worse.
How big is the boat? anything under 30 feet, in light winds can be
manhandled out the berth if you have to.
On a day with not too much breeze, try reversing your boat in a figure
of eight in open water to get a feel for her. Then try round a couple
of moorings. I regard this as an essential exercise for any boat I am
unfamiliar with that I am going to have to manoeuvre in a restricted
space. Don't loose control of the tiller or wheel, with an unbalanced
rudder it will be heavily loaded when reversing. See how long it takes
to gather steerage way astern and try steering while coasting astern as
it may work better than with power on. You can always straighten up and
correct your heading with a brief bust of ahead if you have to
Prop walk is the main problem. You will definitely have preferred
direction to turn in so may need to negotiate a berth that suits turning
the bow towards the exit. When working with the prop walk you should be
able to turn more or less on the spot. Dead end berths are nearly
impossible to leave if a breeze is blowing you on unless you warp off or
have enough control to spring off and back out. One finger between your
berth and the spine your pontoon is off isn't really enough as you may
well need more than one boat length to go astern in in some conditions.
If you are leaving or returning in poor conditions don't hesitate to ask
the Marina for assistance to warp in or out of the berth. They'd much
rather help you than deal with the paperwork if any boat gets damaged.
Don't forget to treat the staff as real humans you respect, with
appropriate gratuities, liquid if going cross channel, or in their
christmas 'box' or on other suitable occasions as you want them eager to
help you when requested, not just because it's their duty.
Don't accept a berth with a significant cross tide. Much of the time
you'd have to warp in and out and in poor conditions or short handed
this may be impossible. OTOH tide running parallel to the fingers can
be a positive advantage *IF* you know how to ferry-glide. If
ferry-gliding in, keep the bow up-tide when berthing. When leaving if
you are facing the wrong way, worst case you'll have to wait a maximum
of 4 or so hours for the tide to slacken/turn before you leave. If
you've practised it, you should be able to ferry-glide out astern.
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
chris
> Thank you, Chris, that's useful stuff. I'm glad to hear that you did a
> lot better than you anticipated - that bodes well for my anticipating
> disaster!
>
> I'm just going to have to take my time, and pay special attention to
> what you say about taking off power once there is movement - I don't
> want to have to be trying to stop in a hurry. I just hope I get steerage
> at low speed. The keel on the boat we're in the process of buying has a
> cut-away to the front of the keel, so while it's long by most standards,
> it's not as long as your Nicholson.
>
> Justin.
>
The appearance of keel of the Nicholson 26' is quite deceptive. The
long keel is actually cut away rather more than it looks and as she
carries her 2 tons of encapsulated lead quite well forward she has a
tendancy to be bow down when drying against a wall. Nevertheless she
sails well and tracking and comfort is very good as you would expect.
Commenting Mike's post
".......But a cut-away forefoot may make the bows susceptible to being
blown off in any crosswind..........."
This is not something I have found with the Nicholson 26' but she has
relatively low freeboard and there is still a lot of boat in the water.
I selected a finger berth which is entered against the prevailing wind
and find it easier to enter a berth forwards and leave astern but
I think it is worth experimenting as there are so many factors involved. .
ChrisR
Alisdair Gurney
"Andy Champ" <no....@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:SrWdnc1eme9nQHnU...@eclipse.net.uk...
If your boat is a Vega, with an off-centre propeller and a rudder that is
below the prop, then that method doesn't work, sadly.
Alisdair
Alisdair Gurney
"Justin C" <justi...@purestblue.com> wrote in message
news:6386.49e49b85.b538b@zem...
This problem is currently under discussion in the Vega group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlbinVega/ , and it has been discussed
innumerable times in the past, so it's worth searching the archives.
Suffice to say, it's just something you get used to, and get used to
planning for. Bow into the berth and reversing out is what I do, and it
works fine - knowing what the wind will do to the bow helps in deciding
whether a helping hand is required.
Alisdair
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:no....@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> broadssailor wrote:
> "Another trick you can employ while still making way (coasting backward)
> is to employ a short burst of forward throttle against a turned rudder.
> The burst of water thrown against a turned rudder will push your stern
> starboard or port according to the set of the rudder.
> This forward thrust, however, causes the backward coasting to be greatly
> reduced. It takes practice to employ this without completely stopping
> backward coasting."
IF you have plenty of room get your sternway on early and, rather than
coming in straight, come in at an angle out of gear, plan to turn at the
last minute as your stern makes the entrance - with the engine forward and
taking sternway off - leaving just enough sternway to complete the berthing.
Obviously the angle depends on all the usual variables but 30-40 degrees is
a reasonable start and get your minor corrections in as early as possible.
- but there's no shame in putting crew ashore with a line.
- and the suggestions to practise in open water are spot on.
(Try with and without tiller lines - they can be a nuisance but so can
the rudder slamming over.)
Cheerio,
--
Fishing: http://www.fishing.casterbridge.net/
Writing: http://www.author.casterbridge.net/derek-moody/
uk.rec.fishing.game Badge Page:
http://www.fishing.casterbridge.net/urfg/
Justin C
>
> If your boat is a Vega, with an off-centre propeller and a rudder that is
> below the prop, then that method doesn't work, sadly.
Alisdair, the Vega has cropped up several times in threads recently,
here and rec.boats.cruising. Someone (perhaps you) suggested I search
the Yahoo Vega group's archives, I have now subscribed, so thanks for
the mention.
Justin C
> I sail a Contessa 26. As a full keel folkboat derived design,
> manoeuvrability astern is not a strong point :-) but the large rudder is
> fairly effective. A long keel with an offset propeller and a small
> rudder could be much worse.
Nice boat. A Folkboat would be my choice if it was just me and my wife
wasn't coming along, she does, however, demand a little more space -
especially in the galley.
> How big is the boat? anything under 30 feet, in light winds can be
> manhandled out the berth if you have to.
She's 29 feet, a Trintella 29.
> On a day with not too much breeze, try reversing your boat in a figure
> of eight in open water to get a feel for her. Then try round a couple
> of moorings. I regard this as an essential exercise for any boat I am
> unfamiliar with that I am going to have to manoeuvre in a restricted
> space.
I agree. It's something I'd like to have the opportunity to do. I may
break up the delivery trip by spending an extra day on the Crouch just
"messing about" getting a feel for her before because once I leave
there, there aren't going to be any more places to really try out this
sort of thing. It'll all be for real, and in close quarters.
> Don't loose control of the tiller or wheel, with an unbalanced
> rudder it will be heavily loaded when reversing.
Yes, I've experience of how heavy a tiller can get in reverse, it's not
to be trifled with.
> Prop walk is the main problem. You will definitely have preferred
> direction to turn in so may need to negotiate a berth that suits turning
> the bow towards the exit. When working with the prop walk you should be
> able to turn more or less on the spot. Dead end berths are nearly
> impossible to leave if a breeze is blowing you on unless you warp off or
> have enough control to spring off and back out. One finger between your
> berth and the spine your pontoon is off isn't really enough as you may
> well need more than one boat length to go astern in in some conditions.
Yup, it's definitely going to be interesting the first time in a marina!
> If you are leaving or returning in poor conditions don't hesitate to ask
> the Marina for assistance to warp in or out of the berth. They'd much
> rather help you than deal with the paperwork if any boat gets damaged.
> Don't forget to treat the staff as real humans you respect, with
> appropriate gratuities, liquid if going cross channel, or in their
> christmas 'box' or on other suitable occasions as you want them eager to
> help you when requested, not just because it's their duty.
Great suggestion. I'd rather look a novice by asking for help, than look
an idiot by not having asked.
> Don't accept a berth with a significant cross tide. Much of the time
> you'd have to warp in and out and in poor conditions or short handed
> this may be impossible. OTOH tide running parallel to the fingers can
> be a positive advantage *IF* you know how to ferry-glide. If
> ferry-gliding in, keep the bow up-tide when berthing. When leaving if
> you are facing the wrong way, worst case you'll have to wait a maximum
> of 4 or so hours for the tide to slacken/turn before you leave. If
> you've practised it, you should be able to ferry-glide out astern.
The new 'home' has a lock, so tide or current aren't an issue... but
they will be in places we expect to visit, so I'll bear these in mind.
WRT ferry-glide, if I understand what you mean then yes, I have done
that, but on a very different boat. I'm sure this one will behave quite
differently, but it's a manoeuvre I'd definitely like to master - and it
does look good when done well!
Alisdair Gurney
Long keeled boat; pig in reverse; water in the rudder .. I thought that's
all it could be!
Alisdair
Nick Temple-Fry
Don't complicate things with warps until you are sure you need them,
every warp is something that can be let go too early/late or jam as it
passes round a mooring cleat. Yachting magazines love complicating
things with diagrams of warps and talk of traditional skills.
Watch how boatmen throw traditional harbour launches about, lots of
bursts of power to get water flow past the rudder, lots of coasting in
between.
Have a plan but then listen to what the boat wants to do, sometimes
the odd effects of wind tide will mean you end up backing (zig zagging
probably as you use bursts of ahead to swing the stern) down a row
because the boat really doesn't want to turn one way. It doesn't
matter - as long as you are heading towards the exit, just keep calm
and everyone else will think it's masterly seamanship controlling a
difficult boat.
Fender up both sides - even if you are leaving berth - it only takes a
minute, lot quicker than an insurance claim.
Nick
Tony of Judicious
Been away for a while so catching up.
Owning a heavy displacement, long keel boat, I have discovered that there
are two ways of dealing with the problem of reversing;
1. Decide that gentlemen (or gentlewomen) do not go backwards in their
yachts.
2. Go backwards, let her decide where she wants to go, and then look as if
that is where you wanted to go in the first place.
All the theory about using propwalk, or whatever, is bunkers.