Arghhh! What should I have done ? (Dinghy disaster)
Mark Bluemel
I've learnt some lessons from it and have already applied them, but I'm
not sure what else I should have done at the time. I'm sure you'll have
some opinions :-)
Sailing with two of my children - daughter (13) in a Pico and son (11)
with me in the Kestrel. Both children have RYA youth level 2, I have RYA
2, plus 4 years sailing experience, and the RYA day-sailing and
seamanship skills certifices.
Daughter capsizes the Pico, so we take the Kestrel over and stand by
while she rights it. OK, so far, so good. (I've furled the Genoa on the
Kestrel and son is at the helm, so I can supervise daughter.)
Daughter didn't take enough care to tidy herself up before sailing off
again, and capsizes almost immediately, inverting the boat. She now
isn't coping with righting it and we sail over to her again. I leave son
in charge of the Kestrel - expecting him to heave to and leap in to sort
out my daughter.
By the time we right the Pico, son has capsized the Kestrel...
Ok, sail Pico to Kestrel, jump in and right it. Oh sh*t, there's no way
I can climb into this boat - the sides are smoothly rolled bouyancy
tanks and I just can't get on. With some care (and effort!) I get son
into the boat, but he can't help me in (he's not a big lad) and can't
seem to get control of the boat - which is now drifting down Southampton
Water heading for the Solent. I'm hanging on for dear life (my arms and
hands will take some time to recover) and trying to get him to control
the boat and head for shore, but he just isn't coping.
Thankfully, daughter has raised help - a dad and son bring their Topper
over to us. Both climb into the Kestrel - son to hold the Topper, dad to
pull me in.
We limp to shore and have a well-earned lunch.
What I learnt:-
Lesson 1: I should have spent more time briefing my son before leaving
the Kestrel and made sure he could get hove-to, but my daughter was
getting panicky and I just "reacted".
Lesson 2: Do capsize drill with a boat before it's an emergency and find
out how you'll get in again - I've now added some ropes with foot loops
tied to the base of the mast.
Lesson 3: If sailing without safety boat cover, we must have as many
"solid" sailors as we have boats.
Lesson 4: For that sort of sailing - reef early and deep...
Any other lessons, suggestions? Ok - perhaps I should have had my
daughter standing by while we righted the Kestrel, as I could have used
the Pico as a stepping stone to the Kestrel, but she'd got past the
point where she might have done that.
Mark
--
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck ...
It probably needs a little longer in the microwave
Mark Bluemel
http://www.bluemel.org.uk
TonyB
> with me in the Kestrel. Both children have RYA youth level 2, I have RYA
> 2, plus 4 years sailing experience, and the RYA day-sailing and
> seamanship skills certifices.
I think we've all made mistakes like this. On reflection I would be very
wary of sailing these boats with youngsters in Southampton Water. But you've
found that out already.
(Otoh, you're well qualified & prepared)
> Daughter capsizes the Pico, so we take the Kestrel over and stand by
> while she rights it. OK, so far, so good. (I've furled the Genoa on the
> Kestrel and son is at the helm, so I can supervise daughter.)
>
> Daughter didn't take enough care to tidy herself up before sailing off
> again, and capsizes almost immediately, inverting the boat. She now
> isn't coping with righting it and we sail over to her again. I leave son
> in charge of the Kestrel - expecting him to heave to and leap in to sort
> out my daughter.
Conditions a little heavy to be out perhaps?
>
> By the time we right the Pico, son has capsized the Kestrel...
>
> Ok, sail Pico to Kestrel, jump in and right it. Oh sh*t, there's no way
> I can climb into this boat - the sides are smoothly rolled bouyancy
> tanks and I just can't get on.
Could you get over the transom?
With some care (and effort!) I get son
> into the boat, but he can't help me in (he's not a big lad) and can't
> seem to get control of the boat - which is now drifting down Southampton
> Water heading for the Solent. I'm hanging on for dear life (my arms and
> hands will take some time to recover) and trying to get him to control
> the boat and head for shore, but he just isn't coping.
>
> Thankfully, daughter has raised help - a dad and son bring their Topper
> over to us. Both climb into the Kestrel - son to hold the Topper, dad to
> pull me in.
Thank goodness the Solent's a busy place, but you probably need some proper
means of signalling distress. Not sure what would be best, maybe a
waterproof flare container on the transom so you can get to it whether you
are in the boat or the water and whether the boat is uprtight, capsized or
inverted|?
>
> We limp to shore and have a well-earned lunch.
>
> What I learnt:-
>
> Lesson 1: I should have spent more time briefing my son before leaving
> the Kestrel and made sure he could get hove-to, but my daughter was
> getting panicky and I just "reacted".
Take another adult next time?
>
> Lesson 2: Do capsize drill with a boat before it's an emergency and find
> out how you'll get in again - I've now added some ropes with foot loops
> tied to the base of the mast.
>
> Lesson 3: If sailing without safety boat cover, we must have as many
> "solid" sailors as we have boats.
>
> Lesson 4: For that sort of sailing - reef early and deep...
Oh yes!
>
> Any other lessons, suggestions? Ok - perhaps I should have had my
> daughter standing by while we righted the Kestrel, as I could have used
> the Pico as a stepping stone to the Kestrel, but she'd got past the
> point where she might have done that.
>
> Mark
Conclusion - you were a bit unlucky but it could have turned quite serious.
I think I'd be happier with another boat with adults in company and/or
another adult crew.
I'm not criticising you, I'm learning too from your experience, but I guess
the weather was too strong and the water too open. On a lake or river you'd
have drifted to the side in no danger, but the sea is a different ball game.
I suppose the rule is - when it all goes wrong - get the two kids in the
kestrel with you & tow the Pico or even leave it, it's not worth a life.
Best wishes
TonyB
John Wilson
But first principles are - especially when the water is cold - pick up
people first and fast (you could have sailed 3 back to shore in either
boat, though the Kestrel might have been more comfortable. If the
wind had been MUCH stronger you might have been better off all getting
into the Pico. Dinghies are replaceable, and the likelihood of an
abandoned dinghy not being recoved intact is low.
Back to shore - get someone fit/strong/competent to help, and get back
to the inverted boat, either under sail or (preferably but absolutely
not necessarily) with a reliable powerboat. Chuck off said
fit/strong/competent person into abandoned boat. Go eat lunch
& warm up. Keep eye out on progress. Buy him/her beer or other
desired refreshment.
Long ago I used to be the usual 'chucked-in' to abandoned boats - now
my sons tend to get that honour. It's good experience, sailing
swamped boats under jib only if necessary.....
John Wilson
jwilsonNO*SP...@yachtsnet.co.uk
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Mark Bluemel
news:b7pjib$toa$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
...
> > Daughter didn't take enough care to tidy herself up before sailing
off
> > again, and capsizes almost immediately, inverting the boat. She now
> > isn't coping with righting it and we sail over to her again. I leave
son
> > in charge of the Kestrel - expecting him to heave to and leap in to
sort
> > out my daughter.
>
> Conditions a little heavy to be out perhaps?
Certainly we should have reefed both boats, probably quite heavily - I
overestimated my children's ability.
> >
> > By the time we right the Pico, son has capsized the Kestrel...
> >
> > Ok, sail Pico to Kestrel, jump in and right it. Oh sh*t, there's no
way
> > I can climb into this boat - the sides are smoothly rolled bouyancy
> > tanks and I just can't get on.
>
> Could you get over the transom?
No - the early Kestrel has a long "aft deck". I did try - bl**dy hard!
...
> Thank goodness the Solent's a busy place, but you probably need some
proper
> means of signalling distress. Not sure what would be best, maybe a
> waterproof flare container on the transom so you can get to it whether
you
> are in the boat or the water and whether the boat is uprtight,
capsized or
> inverted|?
That sounds like a good idea. I think I'll look into that...
> >
> > We limp to shore and have a well-earned lunch.
> >
> > What I learnt:-
> >
> > Lesson 1: I should have spent more time briefing my son before
leaving
> > the Kestrel and made sure he could get hove-to, but my daughter was
> > getting panicky and I just "reacted".
>
> Take another adult next time?
See point 3 - next time, I ensure that we have as many "solid" sailors
as boats (I have two older sons who sail very strongly - 20 year old has
his instructor's ticket)
> >
> > Lesson 2: Do capsize drill with a boat before it's an emergency and
find
> > out how you'll get in again - I've now added some ropes with foot
loops
> > tied to the base of the mast.
> >
> > Lesson 3: If sailing without safety boat cover, we must have as many
> > "solid" sailors as we have boats.
> >
> > Lesson 4: For that sort of sailing - reef early and deep...
>
> Oh yes!
:-)
> Conclusion - you were a bit unlucky but it could have turned quite
serious.
> I think I'd be happier with another boat with adults in company and/or
> another adult crew.
Though we weren't sailing in company, the sailing club was in
significant use, and we were able to get help..
>
> I'm not criticising you, I'm learning too from your experience, but I
guess
> the weather was too strong and the water too open. On a lake or river
you'd
> have drifted to the side in no danger, but the sea is a different ball
game.
The weather was manageable, but for these two reefing would have been a
very good thing.
> I suppose the rule is - when it all goes wrong - get the two kids in
the
> kestrel with you & tow the Pico or even leave it, it's not worth a
life.
Too true..
Cheers
Mark
Mark Bluemel
news:3ea052af...@news.btclick.com...
> You seemed to (with help) sort it out...
If I'd been able to get back into the Kestrel, it wouldn't really have
been an issue...
> But first principles are - especially when the water is cold - pick up
> people first and fast (you could have sailed 3 back to shore in either
> boat, though the Kestrel might have been more comfortable. If the
> wind had been MUCH stronger you might have been better off all getting
> into the Pico. Dinghies are replaceable, and the likelihood of an
> abandoned dinghy not being recoved intact is low.
With you on most of that - except that IMHO the Kestrel would be the
better boat even in a major blow.
> Back to shore - get someone fit/strong/competent to help, and get back
> to the inverted boat, either under sail or (preferably but absolutely
> not necessarily) with a reliable powerboat. Chuck off said
> fit/strong/competent person into abandoned boat. Go eat lunch
> & warm up. Keep eye out on progress. Buy him/her beer or other
> desired refreshment.
That sounds like very good advice. I'll bear it in mind.
Thanks John.
Cheers
Mark
Stefan Lloyd
"Mark Bluemel" <mark_b...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:b7pian$34iiq$1...@ID-126583.news.dfncis.de...
> Ok, sail Pico to Kestrel, jump in and right it. Oh sh*t, there's no way
> I can climb into this boat - the sides are smoothly rolled bouyancy
> tanks and I just can't get on. With some care (and effort!) I get son
> into the boat, but he can't help me in (he's not a big lad) and can't
> seem to get control of the boat - which is now drifting down Southampton
> Water heading for the Solent. I'm hanging on for dear life (my arms and
> hands will take some time to recover) and trying to get him to control
> the boat and head for shore, but he just isn't coping.
>
It's unusual not to be able to climb back into a dinghy after capsize unless
you are very tired or (sorry) you are very unfit. Some people use the jib
sheet to help themselves in. I've never sailed a Kestrel, but normal
practice in a lot of classes is to stand on the board to right it, and
clamber in as the boat comes upright e.g. around the 45 degree mark.
It sounds like you were out in stronger conditions than you or you children
could really handle, but that happens to most dinghy sailors at least once
in their career - it's certainly happened to me. If they have not been put
off by the experience, you will all learn from it.
Many clubs run organised sailing sessions for young members with rescue boat
cover, and maybe that is something to look at. It can be a good social thing
for them as well.
Southampton Water is not very friendly for beginners - there is a lot of
yacht traffic and larger and the tide is quite strong. Somewhere like
Chichester Harbour (not close to the entrance) or inland might be better.
Simon Brooke
> Daughter didn't take enough care to tidy herself up before sailing off
> again, and capsizes almost immediately, inverting the boat. She now
> isn't coping with righting it and we sail over to her again. I leave son
> in charge of the Kestrel - expecting him to heave to and leap in to sort
> out my daughter.
This probably wasn't a good move. It might have been better to have
got daughter into kestrel and either abandoned the pico or taken it
under tow inverted. A tideway is no place to mess about, particularly
with children who are frightened and tending towards hypothermic.
This was definitely a life at risk situation - you can die amazingly
quickly in the water, and April is pretty much the low point of the
sea's temperature cycle in the northern hemisphere. Boats can be
recovered later. and if you broke the pico's mast or ripped its sail
towing it inverted these can be replaced.
> Ok, sail Pico to Kestrel, jump in and right it. Oh sh*t, there's no way
> I can climb into this boat - the sides are smoothly rolled bouyancy
> tanks and I just can't get on.
OK, for me this is the shocker. There is (in my opinion) no way you
should have been sailing that boat in a tideway, responsible for other
lives, if you didn't have a worked out, tested plan for what to do in
the event of a capsize.
> What I learnt:-
>
> Lesson 1: I should have spent more time briefing my son before leaving
> the Kestrel and made sure he could get hove-to, but my daughter was
> getting panicky and I just "reacted".
Well, next time get her out of the water first and then think about
what to do. When the *people* are safe it's time to worry about
recovering the boats.
> Lesson 2: Do capsize drill with a boat before it's an emergency and find
> out how you'll get in again - I've now added some ropes with foot loops
> tied to the base of the mast.
>
> Lesson 3: If sailing without safety boat cover, we must have as many
> "solid" sailors as we have boats.
Better still, have a hard-to-capsize boat as your mothership - either
a cruising boat or something like a wayfarer or a drascombe - ideally
with auxilliary power.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
Stefan Lloyd
"Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:87ademh...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> "Mark Bluemel" <mark_b...@pobox.com> writes:
>
> It might have been better to have
> got daughter into kestrel and either abandoned the pico or taken it
> under tow inverted.
An inverted dinghy with sails still up is a highly effective sea anchor. I
don't believe there is the slightest chance of towing an inverted dinghy
behind another dinghy. Even if you could, you are not going to get anywhere
near the shoreline in Southampton Water towing somethings that draws 3-4m -
outside the dredged channel a lot of it is shallower than that.
Five Cats
<snip>
>
>I suppose the rule is - when it all goes wrong - get the two kids in the
>kestrel with you & tow the Pico or even leave it, it's not worth a life.
Absolutely. And as has been mentioned, do capsize drills. If you
simply cannot right the boat and get back into it, change the boat for
one you can do this with. Also check clothing is adequate for the
conditions both in and out of the water - the sun may be warm at the
moment and the air temperature has been high in the SE, but the water is
still *very* cold.
--
Five Cats
Mick
others, it is certainly food for thought. It seems clear to me that the
decision to jump into the water was a bad one. All the real problems ensued
from that.
Mark Bluemel <mark_b...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:b7pian$34iiq$1...@ID-126583.news.dfncis.de...
Iain Hibbert
>> Conditions a little heavy to be out perhaps?
> Certainly we should have reefed both boats, probably quite heavily - I
> overestimated my children's ability.
Actually I find that people do seem reluctant to reef in any kind
of boats around here (south coast), I've seen yachts blazing along
with full sail up today and yesterday (I think a F6 or F7 earlier),
heeling at 45 degrees or more..
I learned when singlehanding that its much easier to sail with a
reef (or two!) in the main in this kind of wind (full sail is for F3
after all), and you hardly lose any speed (neither does your cup
of tea spill :) If I am leaning over at 30 degrees, thats way too
much..
iain
Mark Bluemel
"Stefan Lloyd" <do...@spam.me> wrote in message
news:b7r3fl$r29$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
>
> It's unusual not to be able to climb back into a dinghy after capsize
unless
> you are very tired or (sorry) you are very unfit. Some people use the
jib
> sheet to help themselves in.
I'm not too unfit, but not particularly strong in the arm and couldn't
reach any thing to help me. By the time I got the jib sheet (poor
planning), my arms were going, I think.
> I've never sailed a Kestrel, but normal
> practice in a lot of classes is to stand on the board to right it, and
> clamber in as the boat comes upright e.g. around the 45 degree mark.
I'd brought the boat upright simply by pushing at the end of the
centre-plate - your suggestion is good and I'd try to do that next time.
> It sounds like you were out in stronger conditions than you or you
children
> could really handle, but that happens to most dinghy sailors at least
once
> in their career - it's certainly happened to me.
I could have handled it, my children couldn't - I'd planned to get them
back to shore and reef heavily. Next time, I'll reef first...
> If they have not been put
> off by the experience, you will all learn from it.
Indeed.
> clubs run organised sailing sessions for young members with rescue
boat
> cover, and maybe that is something to look at. It can be a good social
thing
> for them as well.
We do that as well. As Sunday's forecast for the club mini-cruise was
poor, we decided to use Friday as a chance to sail.
> Southampton Water is not very friendly for beginners - there is a lot
of
> yacht traffic and larger and the tide is quite strong. Somewhere like
> Chichester Harbour (not close to the entrance) or inland might be
better.
I live in Southampton and the sailing from our Club is actually not too
awkward. We'd launched around the first high-tide, so tide race wasn't
an issue.
The bottom line was that I overestimated what my children's
qualifications meant and neglected to reef as we should.
Mark
Mark Bluemel
news:87ademh...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>
> > Daughter didn't take enough care to tidy herself up before sailing
off
> > again, and capsizes almost immediately, inverting the boat. She now
> > isn't coping with righting it and we sail over to her again. I leave
son
> > in charge of the Kestrel - expecting him to heave to and leap in to
sort
> > out my daughter.
>
> This probably wasn't a good move. It might have been better to have
> got daughter into kestrel and either abandoned the pico or taken it
> under tow inverted. A tideway is no place to mess about, particularly
> with children who are frightened and tending towards hypothermic.
Amen...
...
> > Ok, sail Pico to Kestrel, jump in and right it. Oh sh*t, there's no
way
> > I can climb into this boat - the sides are smoothly rolled bouyancy
> > tanks and I just can't get on.
>
> OK, for me this is the shocker. There is (in my opinion) no way you
> should have been sailing that boat in a tideway, responsible for other
> lives, if you didn't have a worked out, tested plan for what to do in
> the event of a capsize.
Likewise amen and "mea culpa". I've had plenty of experience of capsize
recovery in a variety of boats, but I now _know_ that I needed to do
recovery practise with the Kestrel. :-(
>
> > What I learnt:-
> >
> > Lesson 1: I should have spent more time briefing my son before
leaving
> > the Kestrel and made sure he could get hove-to, but my daughter was
> > getting panicky and I just "reacted".
>
> Well, next time get her out of the water first and then think about
> what to do. When the *people* are safe it's time to worry about
> recovering the boats.
True - I was expecting to right the Pico, sail it with daughter and
climb back onto the Kestrel (see comment below).
...
> > Lesson 3: If sailing without safety boat cover, we must have as many
> > "solid" sailors as we have boats.
>
> Better still, have a hard-to-capsize boat as your mothership - either
> a cruising boat or something like a wayfarer or a drascombe - ideally
> with auxilliary power.
A Kestrel isn't all that much less stable than a Wayfarer - it has a
broad beam and a metal centreplate and a fairly moderate sailplan (we'd
already furled the genoa) - I can't understand how my son capsized it...
Mark Bluemel
news:eAOi2bQh...@nevis-view.demon.co.uk...
> In article <b7pjib$toa$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, TonyB <p...@q.com> writes
> <snip>
> >
> >I suppose the rule is - when it all goes wrong - get the two kids in
the
> >kestrel with you & tow the Pico or even leave it, it's not worth a
life.
>
> Absolutely. And as has been mentioned, do capsize drills.
On the list.
> If you
> simply cannot right the boat and get back into it, change the boat for
> one you can do this with.
I think I've addressed the reboarding issue and _will_ be testing it.
> Also check clothing is adequate for the
> conditions both in and out of the water - the sun may be warm at the
> moment and the air temperature has been high in the SE, but the water
is
> still *very* cold.
We always wear good-quality, full-length wetsuits. Neither the children
nor I were chilled.
shaz ; ¬ }
"Mick" <mi...@mjcooper.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7s0mk$jhe$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I think Mark is to be commended for sharing this embarrasing experience
with
> others, it is certainly food for thought. It seems clear to me that the
> decision to jump into the water was a bad one. All the real problems
ensued
> from that.
>
>
> Mark Bluemel <mark_b...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:b7pian$34iiq$1...@ID-126583.news.dfncis.de...
> > Just got back from a slightly hairy experience.
> >
> > I've learnt some lessons from it and have already applied them, but I'm
> > not sure what else I should have done at the time. I'm sure you'll have
> > some opinions :-)
> >
> > Sailing with two of my children - daughter (13) in a Pico and son (11)
Amongst the postings I've skipread through, you seem to have been given all
the best advice already - especially about staying in your boat. IMHO and as
the father of three young teen girls I would say that you're no use to them
if you're dead, and you're not going to die if you stay in your boat and
pull the one in the water in with you - then you can get organised. It's
hard to think fast when the wheels are falling off and that's why you MUST
do regular dry runs (sorry - bad one).
All I can add, apart from ensuring that everyone can get their boat back
upright on their own (practised till perfect in shallow, calm water close to
the shore) and then get back into it unaided, are the following small
suggestions.
Two brightly coloured polypropaline lines of about 2 or 3 metres each, tied
to each end of your boat, but tucked away under or behind something, will
float to the surface if you capsize. It is then easier to pull the boat
around so the bow is in the wind and is then more manageable - if you're the
one in the water, or, if you're in the other boat with sails up & want to
avoid getting fouled in each other's spagetti. With care you could sail
straight at the bow line and scoop it out of the water as soon as you get to
it. This will stop you pretty dead and you can then haul in whoever is in
the ogg.
Another one is to have a lynch-pin which when pulled out will allow the
mainsail sheet block to come free. Of course the sheet will have a figure 8
on the end so you wont lose the block, and the lynch-pin (as used on
tractors) will have a long line tied to the ring and terminating on a
pad-eye, out of the way, yet accessible if you're keel up. Personally, I
don't feel silly with a suitably sized fender tied to the top of the mast to
prevent it disappearing out of sight. If you can get some air under the head
of the main (using a paddle as a lever) you might be able to turn enough off
the wind to right the boat without getting into the water yourself, which I
think is best avoided if you're out with youths who don't have the strength
of an adult.This is important when you consider what would happen if your
feet became entangled.
Finally, if I were to take my two youngest (ages similar) out on Soton Water
in two different boats I'd stay close to a friend in something with an
outboard, because we all know how it can get, don't we ?
Luckily where you were is as busy as it gets, but imagine being in the
Windies or off S.Eire and trying to find your anchorage in the dark with a
feeble torch after having had a few. Well, perhaps we'd better not ,eh?
It's very commendable of you to make us all sit up and think, yes, and brave
too.
BTW - I'm still looking for the air filter assembly for an Evinrude Sport
Twin 9.5 hp 1969 so if anyone has any old Evinrude parts I'd be really
interested.
With thanks,
Mike Szarowicz
John Wilson
>I'd brought the boat upright simply by pushing at the end of the
>centre-plate - your suggestion is good and I'd try to do that next time.
I've met this situation too several times on a variety of dinghies -
whilst the boat flips upright quickly I then couldn't get into it
except by going to the transom, and if I did that it turned downwind
and the sails filled (as it would if given drag at the stern) and
capsized again. As soon as I even tried to get onto the centreboard
to it righted. The problem tends to come with heavier people. If you
have a reasonable weight crew they can float in as the boat rights,
and then heel the boat enough using their weight for you to get in
over the side. A very light crew may not be able to do this, or even
to prevent a nother capsize in the next gust.
Sometimes it actually helps to get a very light crew to hold the
masthead down to the water while you climb up on the centreboard to
stop this too-fast righting. Once you're standing on the board you
can balance the boat on its side till the crew comes back to the
cockpit
What if you're on your own?
One cure is to invert it completely, get on the bottom, pull on the
centreboard until about 30-40 degrees part-righted, then wriggle round
to be on top of the centreboard (do this from aft, or the board will
slide in). Then lean back against it, and kneel as it comes to level
with the water. You can then stand on it, and can climb into the
cockpit as the boat rights.
Another (assuming the boat is reasonably stable on its side and not
already starting to invert) is to swim round to the cockpit, pull the
mainsheet in a tight as it will go, and either cleat it opr hold it.
Now climb uphill as quickly as you can onto the sidedeck using the
mast and boom as steps. The boat will start to invert but because you
have the main sheeted in there will be a lot of water resistance to
fast inversion. Acroos and stand on the centreboard, and right the
boat, uncleating the main as soon as it comes up.
Five Cats
<mark_b...@pobox.com> writes
>
>"Stefan Lloyd" <do...@spam.me> wrote in message
>news:b7r3fl$r29$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>>
>> It's unusual not to be able to climb back into a dinghy after capsize
>unless
>> you are very tired or (sorry) you are very unfit. Some people use the
>jib
>> sheet to help themselves in.
>
>I'm not too unfit, but not particularly strong in the arm and couldn't
>reach any thing to help me. By the time I got the jib sheet (poor
>planning), my arms were going, I think.
>
>> I've never sailed a Kestrel, but normal
>> practice in a lot of classes is to stand on the board to right it, and
>> clamber in as the boat comes upright e.g. around the 45 degree mark.
>
>I'd brought the boat upright simply by pushing at the end of the
>centre-plate - your suggestion is good and I'd try to do that next time.
However you need to be able to get on the plate to do this. Check that
out also - with some boats it's horribly high out of the water and
harder than getting back into it. You could also look at capsize lines
which can help with both righting and getting back into a boat,
allegedly!
>
>> It sounds like you were out in stronger conditions than you or you
>children
>> could really handle, but that happens to most dinghy sailors at least
>once
>> in their career - it's certainly happened to me.
>
>I could have handled it, my children couldn't - I'd planned to get them
>back to shore and reef heavily. Next time, I'll reef first...
It's much, much easier to take reefs out when afloat than to put them
in. I can't remember what kind of reefing system you have, but if it's
not already slab reefing that would be well worth looking at, as would a
practise at reefing afloat.
<snip>
>
>The bottom line was that I overestimated what my children's
>qualifications meant and neglected to reef as we should.
I think it's easy to overestimate what any qualification means, and also
how much one has picked up during the years of experience. Some people
are wise after 6 months than others are after 10 years. If I remember
correctly your qualifications were RYA level 2 certificates. Now you do
have to display some degree of boat control to get them, but having seen
a lot of activity at the sailing school next to the club I used to
belong to my personal view is that the skill level for RYA 2 is pretty
minimal. Many of the punters who got their level 2 certificates had
little wind awareness and hence struggled to sail the boat effectively.
My personal view is that some racing is by far the best way to sharpen
up boat handling skills, in a safe environment as all clubs provide
rescue cover when racing is under way. Of course boat handling is not
the be-all and end-all of the required skills - far from it - but IMHO
it is absolutely vital and whatever one's other skills are one should
not call oneself competent unless the boat handling is up to scratch.
--
Five Cats
J. Allan
> experience with others, it is certainly food for thought. It seems
> clear to me that the decision to jump into the water was a bad one.
> All the real problems ensued from that.
Yup, Mark, a brave and useful exercise, for yourself and for other
readers.
> Mark Bluemel <mark_b...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:b7pian$34iiq$1...@ID-126583.news.dfncis.de...
Please don't take this personal criticism, or someone wanting to further
lacerate your already tender spots. I'm also just all too aware that
it's easy to be wise after the event, but perhaps if we sow a few seeds
people can have some little mental rehearsals.
There are a couple of things that I think deserve emphasis.
In one of his replies, Mark summarised as follows:
"The bottom line was that I overestimated what my children's
qualifications meant and neglected to reef as we should."
I suspect that there's a fundamental mistake here in judging sailing
conditions by what YOU could cope with, without focusing on what the
kids could cope with. Its a while since I instructed in dinghies, but
IIRC I would have been teaching Certificate 2 candidates that on a two
reef day they should expercise their judgement and spending the day on
the yacht club lawn practicing knots and overhauling gear (with a few
parental ice-creams). I used to stress that the first decision you
always made in the morning was the sail/no-sail decision, and that you
repeated the weather reveiw and decision after you had rigged up, and
before you shoved off.
I suggest that you talk pre-sailing safety assessments over with your
son the RYA instructor, take a look at the RYA Manual, and his notes,
and work out what the objective criteria applicable to your kids are.
Note that you made the sail/no-sail decision here, and were later proved
injudicious out on the water: that's no crime, but when you are
thinking about kids, you should be very deliberately applying more
conservative objective criteria than you would for yourself.
There's something additional about RYA qualifications. Although RYA
courses are very practical, sometimes, particularly with physically
small people (kids and small women, who are often among the
not-so-confident, as well), they only guarantee limited actual
competency. For example, a small woman who has done a Competent Crew
may know _how_ to trim the brace on a 50 footer in 30 kts, but she
probably won't be able to do it in practice without disappearing round
the winch and out through the quarter-block.
Likewise your son trying to hold up a 16 ft adult performance dinghy on
his own. That boat was probably designed to carry 30 stone: I guess
your little guy was about 8 st. 11 years old, 8 st, alone in Dad's
Kestrel while sister is in trouble, and wind gusting 20 plus: scary
_and_ physically at or over the limit.
Just a reminder about hypothermia: heat-loss is as the inverse of body
weight raised to the 7th power. Lord knows how much this accelerates
when the adrenalin gets pumping. Little light kids lose heat at an
incredible speed in the wet and wind, and may well experience early (or
substantial) onset long before big adults even notice it's cold. At the
very least this can result in them not concentrating and forgetting
their drills. Not much you can do about it once it happens out on the
water, but remember, that with kids, when everyone's wet, cold and
frightened, you can't expect them to do everything you want reliably
(same goes for everyone, kids or not I guess).
>> Just got back from a slightly hairy experience.
>>
>> I've learnt some lessons from it and have already applied them, but
>> I'm not sure what else I should have done at the time. I'm sure
>> you'll have some opinions :-)
>>
>> Sailing with two of my children - daughter (13) in a Pico and son
>> (11) with me in the Kestrel. Both children have RYA youth level 2, I
>> have RYA 2, plus 4 years sailing experience, and the RYA day-sailing
>> and seamanship skills certifices.
Might I suggest you get involved in junior instruction or coaching: you
will acquire lots of good skills to help your kids: its a whole new
world, compared with just sailing yourself.
>> Daughter capsizes the Pico, so we take the Kestrel over and stand by
>> while she rights it. OK, so far, so good. (I've furled the Genoa on
>> the Kestrel and son is at the helm, so I can supervise daughter.)
Using one sailing dinghy as a rescue boat or coach boat for another,
isn't a good idea. Firstly there's the manoeuverability problem of
getting to where you need to be under sail, secondly, if you actually
have to do any rescue or salvage stuff, you're going to have to do it
with some way on, and either or both boats are likely to get somewhat
scrunched up.
>> Daughter didn't take enough care to tidy herself up before sailing
>> off again, and capsizes almost immediately, inverting the boat. She
>> now isn't coping with righting it and we sail over to her again.
As a couple of other posters have suggested, there were other and
possibly better options. With the benefit of experience and hindsight,
maybe the best course would have been to get your daughter into your
boat, then with the benefit of some reassuring hugs, while sailing round
and round the Pico, talked out a plan, involving both the kids about
what to do next. This slows down the tempo, and reduces the chance of
mistakes. Options might have been (1) all sail back to the hard in the
Kestrel and sort the Pico out later, (2) salvage the Pico and tow it
back to the hard, (3) You (or maybe your daughter if she's feeling
confident) go over and self-rescue the Pico, with the Kestrel standing
by, then off back to the beach.
When kids start 'losing it', it's better to get them (relatively) warm
and safe, and think about what to do next, rather than pressing on at
full throttle.
>> I leave son in charge of the Kestrel - expecting him to heave to and
>> leap in to sort out my daughter.
You previously said you'd furled the jib on the Kestrel, by 'heave to' I
take it you mean the RYA Heave to: wind exactly abeam with mainsail
flying and flogging? The boat will actually make quite a bit of way in
this configuration, and it was probably asking quite a bit of your son.
It's quite a hard thing for beginners to do (although its a very useful
move: you should get both the kids to practice it in the Kestrel until
they're absolutely confident and comforatable with it).
But it turns out your son probably did the best thing to to ...
>> By the time we right the Pico, son has capsized the Kestrel...
If you want to stop and help someone already in the water, capsizing on
the spot is a workable way to do it (provided you will be able to right
yourself and get going again). It slows down the tempo, allows you to
talk, without shouting, lets you move about, sort things out and so on.
It's a bit of a last resort, but it at least avoids the problem of
drifting away.
>>
>> Ok, sail Pico to Kestrel, jump in and right it. Oh sh*t, there's no
>> way I can climb into this boat - the sides are smoothly rolled
>> bouyancy tanks and I just can't get on. With some care (and effort!)
>> I get son into the boat, but he can't help me in (he's not a big
>> lad) and can't seem to get control of the boat - which is now
>> drifting down Southampton Water heading for the Solent. I'm hanging
>> on for dear life (my arms and hands will take some time to recover)
>> and trying to get him to control the boat and head for shore, but he
>> just isn't coping.
>>
>> Thankfully, daughter has raised help - a dad and son bring their
>> Topper over to us. Both climb into the Kestrel - son to hold the
>> Topper, dad to pull me in.
>>
>> We limp to shore and have a well-earned lunch.
>>
>> What I learnt:-
>>
>> Lesson 1: I should have spent more time briefing my son before
>> leaving the Kestrel and made sure he could get hove-to, but my
>> daughter was getting panicky and I just "reacted".
I don't think that any amount of 'briefing' would have solved the
problem. The conditions were seemingly just too much for the
helmsmanship skills of both the kids, at least while there was a whiff
of panic in the air. At the risk of labouring the point, think again
about the difference between your 'subjective' judgement of what you
felt you could cope with and an objective assessment of what the kids
could be expected to cope with (especially when FFF (frightened,
freezing and far from home) <g>)
>> Lesson 2: Do capsize drill with a boat before it's an emergency and
>> find out how you'll get in again - I've now added some ropes with
>> foot loops tied to the base of the mast.
OK, tying a bowline in the jibsheet end then catching it in the lee
jam-cleat works quite well without having to carry extra lines.
Can your kids right the Kestrel? Prolly difficult, but if he does it
just right, all sheets free, head to wind, sheet to pull on over the
high side of the boat, pressure on the tip of the centreboard, your son
should just be able to manage it, and your daughter should be able to
without too much difficulty (usual form practice in chest deep water
outside the yacht club) Good thing to maste: good sense of
achievement. OK, if your son can right the Kestrel, then he can right
it with you inside using the Scoop Method, remember your RYA course?
you lie parallel to the submerged deck while he rights it and you get
scooped up into the boat: you tidy up and settle the boat while he
holds on, then you can easily pull him into the boat. This is also a
good trick to get someone who has been hurt in a capsize into the boat.
>> Lesson 3: If sailing without safety boat cover, we must have as many
>> "solid" sailors as we have boats.
More or less, but this analysis might help. There are two levels of
conditions that you kinds with their qualifications, physiques and
experience can sail in:
* Lighter conditions where they can sail with absolute confidence
without the need for a safety or a patrol boat (or otherwise, where the
Kestrel can come alongside the Pico and give assistance without any risk
of the Kestrel itself capsizing, or running into the Pico.)
* heavier conditions where they can expect to capsize occasionally, and
where a patrol boat should be available (or othewise where the Kestrel,
sailed by one competent, confident helmsman, can drop another competent
assistant off at the Pico, then stand by, under control, and return to
pick up a person, or a tow or whatever)
>> Lesson 4: For that sort of sailing - reef early and deep...
I'm inclined to think that two reefs and no club motorboat is just a
little hairy-chested for kids in a solo dinghy.
>> Any other lessons, suggestions? Ok - perhaps I should have had my
>> daughter standing by while we righted the Kestrel, as I could have
>> used the Pico as a stepping stone to the Kestrel, but she'd got past
>> the point where she might have done that.
I'd go very gently with both the kinds about sailing for a while: it's
probably been a pretty scary experience, which, IMHO has been a bit
beyond their capabilities at this stage. That doesn't matter, because
all's well that ends well, but I'd try to avoid pushing them if they're
reluctant to sail or sail in heavy conditions, for a while.
Don't run the macho bit about if you're thrown from a horse, the best
thing is to jump back on and ride it. If an 11 or 13 year old doesn't
want to go sailing, then let it pass (maybe try harder on the next warm
sunny day).
Just take care that the capsize drills you plan aren't 'punishing', but
are thorough and effective. I've always thought capsize drills should
be done on a warm sunny day, so no-one gets miserable (you can always do
some more later in stiffer conditions if necessary) Perhaps you can get
RYA Instructor son to supervise: make sure they're confidence-building.
You might care to build up an assessment of what each of them actually
can do, in what conditions, then when you go sailing with them, you can
give them opportunities to improve their skills.
Lots of luck
John