How big to sail across channel?
Brian Reay
How big a yacht would you need to be able to sail safely across the channel
and do "coastal hoping" around Europe, including the UK (esp. Scotland)?
I'm thinking "fair weather" sailing but big enough to be safe if weather
turned on such a "voyage" and you needed time to find a safe harbour.
TIA
Brian
Alastair
wrote:
The answer, as always, is "it depends". I know people who have made
numerous crossiings in a 15ft dinghy. On one occasion they very nearly
completed a circumnavigation of Brittany before the time ran out.
The limit is not the size of the boat, but what sort of boating you
want to do. So, what is your comfort zone? Do you want a floating
hotel, a floating caravan or are you happy with a floating tent?
You can avoid most of the obvious dangers by sensible preparation. The
smaller the boat (and especially if you can drag it above the high
tide line) the more safe harbours there are.
In a big yacht you will need a proper harbour and will then find you
have to spend more trime at sea in uncomfortable conditions.
(It has been proved possible to safely cross the Atlantic in a boat
less than 6 ft long, though I doubt it would be much use for coastal
work)
--
Alastair
Robin Anderson
preferable to an unseaworthy vessel of any size. Seaworthiness of the vessel
is one key factor in providing acceptable safety standards whether going off
shore or in coastal waters. The dangerous bit is actually more often when
closing on the land than when out to sea. Little boats are a bit slower,
particularly in heavy weather and often will not have as much power as a
larger yacht to pull away from a lee shore but size itself is still not the
determining factor for safety. Most yachts will not be able to outrun bad
weather on long pasaages. If you can keep the sea out and not get run over
by a ship, a little boat will look after you in gales at sea.
The other major factor is the abilty and wisdom of the skipper and crew.
As for size of vessel - it can add to safety as you can see off bigger seas
without getting swamped or rolled but it does not really determine it. Size
is more a determinant in how comfortable you and your crew will be. Lots of
tiny yachts cross the Channel every year without mishap. I cruised a Hurley
22 for 10 years, visiting the Channel Islands, Brittany, West Country etc
winter and summer, sometimes single handed and sometimes with wife and two
kids. If I had had time the vessel would have taken me across the Atlantic
but I can't say it would have been terribly comfortable. Lots of Hurleys,
Corribees (21 ft )and so on routinely make offshore passages in safety. If
you want to spend long periods on board in comfort however you will want to
be able to stand up down below and that means extra feet on the boat length.
A Leisure 23 for example allows one to stand up down below just about - a
more usual size to allow this is a 26 footer like a Sadler. So get the best
boat you can afford, not the biggest.
Robin
TonyB
"Brian Reay" <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
Depends too on how many people are going on the trip. If you are picking
your weather slots very carefully then anything will get you across, but the
minimum for sleeping comfort for two would be something like the sturdy
little SeaHawk at 17 feet which seems to handle heavy weather in it's
stride.
I guess the next consideration is whether you need standing headroom and if
so you are up to about a 22 -24 footer. Considerations such as inboard or
outboard engine also apply. Keel configuration is important, a fin sails a
bit better but a bilge keeler will take the ground if you need an emergency
stop for overnighting. Bigger than that brings more comfort and space and an
ability to handle heavier weather but also greater expense.
TonyB
Nick Temple-Fry
wrote:
>I guess the next consideration is whether you need standing headroom and if
>so you are up to about a 22 -24 footer. Considerations such as inboard or
>outboard engine also apply. Keel configuration is important, a fin sails a
>bit better but a bilge keeler will take the ground if you need an emergency
>stop for overnighting. Bigger than that brings more comfort and space and an
>ability to handle heavier weather but also greater expense.
>
>TonyB
>
I've always wondered what this thing called Standing Headroom is for,
OK its handy for pulling on the waterproof trousers, but what else?
Are there whole cohorts of sailors who regular conduct marching
practise in the privacy of their cabins?.
or is it "Look dear, its got standing headroom, can I now spend the
kids inheritance" factor.
Actually anyone considering small boat cruising can do little better
than read Maurice Griffiths either in "Swatchways and Little Ships" or
"Magic of the Swatchways"
Dave Bulllar
"Brian Reay" <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
37ft yachts I would now say that about 30ft is the least I would want to do
any enjoyable cruising in.
The old rule used to be 1 foot for each year of your life, but I cannot
afford to do that now on an OAP income.
Dave
Richard Faulkner
<comesail...@btinternet.com> writes
> I would now say that about 30ft is the least I would want to do any
>enjoyable cruising in.
Agreed. Something like a Nic 31 or a Contessa 32.
--
Richard Faulkner
Duncan Heenan
"Brian Reay" <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
How long is a piece of string?
Rather than seriously consider buying a boat as a total 'numby', it's better
to get some experience first by crewing for other people or taking some
courses, and then you'll be able to decide for yourself what you want to do,
and indeed whether you actually like it enough to do it. Quite a lot of
people see the TV programmes of people laying about on decks in the sun, and
get all enthusiastic, but change their minds when they try clinging on in
freezing conditions and trying not to be sick whilst paying through the nose
for the privilege.
Brian Reay
"Duncan Heenan" <duncan...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:44657ccb$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>
> "Brian Reay" <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
> news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>> This question is from a total sailing "numbty" so be kind ;-)
>>
>> How big a yacht would you need to be able to sail safely across the
>> channel and do "coastal hoping" around Europe, including the UK (esp.
>> Scotland)?
>>
>> I'm thinking "fair weather" sailing but big enough to be safe if weather
>> turned on such a "voyage" and you needed time to find a safe harbour.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Brian
>
> How long is a piece of string?
> Rather than seriously consider buying a boat as a total 'numby', it's
> better to get some experience first by crewing for other people or taking
> some courses, and then you'll be able to decide for yourself what you want
> to do, and indeed whether you actually like it enough to do it.
That is sort of the plan, if I decide to explore the idea further. We've (as
in the better half and myself) discussed the idea several times over the
years and it resurfaces every now and again. The question was aimed at
seeing roughly what I'd need in the way of a boat to do the sort of thing
we had in mind.
>Quite a lot of people see the TV programmes of people laying about on decks
>in the sun, and get all enthusiastic, but change their minds when they try
>clinging on in freezing conditions and trying not to be sick whilst paying
>through the nose for the privilege.
I'm sure that happens a lot and my better half is "lukewarm" to the idea.
Thank you all who replied- looks like 30/32 ft is the sort of thing I'd
need. That is a big "hole in the water" to pour money into ;-)
Brian
--
73
Brian
www.g8osn.org.uk
Arturo Ui
> >need. That is a big "hole in the water" to pour money into ;-)
>
I sail a 22 foot lift keeler that was designed in the 70's to be locally
raced around the buoys. Then a number of numbties raced them across the
Atlantic, around to Australia, etc. My local port to Cherbourg, Le Havre
isn't unusual.
Its down to preparation and how you sail it. Wouldn't do it with a modern
trailer sailer though....
Artie
Richard Faulkner
<s...@website.invalid> writes
>Thank you all who replied- looks like 30/32 ft is the sort of thing I'd
>need. That is a big "hole in the water" to pour money into ;-)
£30K +/- to buy. I think my mate spent around £2K to £4K to keep and
maintain a Nic 31 in Fleetwood and Glasson Dock, (winter).
--
Richard Faulkner
Nick Temple-Fry
wrote:
.
> snipped
>Thank you all who replied- looks like 30/32 ft is the sort of thing I'd
>need. That is a big "hole in the water" to pour money into ;-)
>
>Brian
I think 30-32ft is a big hole to pour money into - and a big boat to
start with.
A lot of people get hung up on accomodation - and then forget how you
use the space is totally different on a boat compared to a house (or
indeed a caravan).
A boat is for sailing - you'll spend 5-10hrs a day (typically - if you
are coast hopping - sometimes more), in the cockpit sailing the thing.
When you get somewhere you'll spend a few more hours doing the
touristy thing - wandering around, visiting pubs, walking on the beach
etc. You'll probably spend comparitively few hours actually on the
boat wondering what to do with yourselves.
If like me you end up enjoying anchorages and a bit of self
sufficiency, then you'll find so much going on around you (wind,
water, light, sound, birds, wildlife, fish rising etc and the antics
of any other boats around) that again you'll want to be up watching
it, enjoying it.
True some 32 ft boats are better sea performers than some 22ft boats,
and on the whole the designs that are are the older ones which offer
least in the way of accomodation. But in truth you are not going to
notice much difference other than in extremis, in which case the
bigger boat may be a little less uncomfortable and a little safer, but
both will be uncomfortable and, quite probably, frightening.
But you are talking about coastal cruising around UK plus a bit of
cross channel. You are not willingly going to be out in anything over
F6, and you'll plan your passages (certainly in the first few years)
around better conditions. On the whole and for most of the UK weather
predictions are good enough for you to be confident of the conditions
at least for the coming 12 hrs and often the next 36.
So rather than go for the biggest boat you can afford, buy the
smallest boat your ego and your requirement for berth space will
allow.Get in some sailing and then make up your mind whether you want
a bigger boat and what sort of boat you want.
Ian Sandell
<ni...@temple-fry.COmpletely.UnKnown> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 May 2006 20:12:07 +0100, "TonyB" <Nor...@soxclara.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>
>>I guess the next consideration is whether you need standing headroom and if
>>so you are up to about a 22 -24 footer. Considerations such as inboard or
>>outboard engine also apply. Keel configuration is important, a fin sails a
>>bit better but a bilge keeler will take the ground if you need an emergency
>>stop for overnighting. Bigger than that brings more comfort and space and an
>>ability to handle heavier weather but also greater expense.
>>
>>TonyB
>>
>
>I've always wondered what this thing called Standing Headroom is for,
>OK its handy for pulling on the waterproof trousers, but what else?
>
>Are there whole cohorts of sailors who regular conduct marching
>practise in the privacy of their cabins?.
I'm 5' 7 . Given the choice between 5' 8 and 5' 6 , I know which I
would choose.
Ian
Ian Sandell
<ni...@temple-fry.COmpletely.UnKnown> wrote:
>
>Actually anyone considering small boat cruising can do little better
>than read Maurice Griffiths either in "Swatchways and Little Ships" or
>"Magic of the Swatchways"
I love Magic of the Swatchways but I wouldn't think it has much
relevance to someone considering crossing the channel in a small boat
in 2006.
Ian
Nick Temple-Fry
wrote:
What - other than the prices, has changed - continental drift is slow
and as yet the sea level hasn't risen much.
It is still a damn good introduction to both the essentials of coastal
cruising and a good 'muse' on what is needed in yacht design.
Alastair
>On Sat, 13 May 2006 13:40:20 GMT, Ian Sandell <i...@sandell.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 12 May 2006 20:42:30 +0100, Nick Temple-Fry
>><ni...@temple-fry.COmpletely.UnKnown> wrote:
>>
><snip>
>>>I've always wondered what this thing called Standing Headroom is for,
>>>OK its handy for pulling on the waterproof trousers, but what else?
>>>
>>>Are there whole cohorts of sailors who regular conduct marching
>>>practise in the privacy of their cabins?.
>>
>>I'm 5' 7 . Given the choice between 5' 8 and 5' 6 , I know which I
>>would choose.
>
>I'm 6'1" I know what I would choose too. It seems odd to make a virtue
>out of a boat having a lack of headroom.
If you *know* you can't stand upright you will bang your less often
than if you *think* you can.
--
Alastair
Dennis Pogson
Hundreds of people have managed to swim across it, but they DO wait for
suitable weather.
Not being facetious, just pointing out that it is no big deal, in the right
conditions.
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
There is no right size. I've no doubt you could cross safely and live
happily for weeks on end in a ten footer. Speaking for myself I'm
seriously tempted by the idea of crossing the channel in a Laser and
camping for a couple of weeks in France.
However, approx 30ft is normally considered the ideal minimum for
cruising over more than a weekend or so. Confirmation of this is the
price hike as boats get towards the magic 30ft 'limit'.
Alastair
>On Sat, 13 May 2006 18:18:09 GMT, alas...@as3jg.freeuk.com (Alastair)
>Wrong!
Well spotted, I think my keyboard must have a leak. What it was
supposed to say was:
In my experience if you *know* you can't stand upright you will bang
your head less often than if you *think* you can.
--
Alastair
TonyB
> >>than if you *think* you can.
> Well spotted, I think my keyboard must have a leak. What it was
> supposed to say was:
>
> In my experience if you *know* you can't stand upright you will bang
> your head less often than if you *think* you can.
Er, is there a difference?
TonyB
Arturo Ui
> >cruising over more than a weekend or so.
>
Hmmm. But a lot of 30ft+ boats have creature comforts like my 22fter
doesn't. Whilst there is no upper or lower limit, I can understand people
wanting to travel in greater comfort on a bigger boat.
PS - I'm 6'2" and my boat has around 4'6" headroom in the cabin. I'm yet to
bang my head. (Although I've banged knees, elbows, scraped my back and
trapped myself in various parts of the cabin. Maybe I'll move to something
bigger, one day.......)
Artie
Dave Bulllar
>>Wrong!
>
> Well spotted, I think my keyboard must have a leak. What it was
> supposed to say was:
>
> In my experience if you *know* you can't stand upright you will bang
> your head less often than if you *think* you can.
>
>
> --
> Alastair
across at 5ft 9, above my line of sight.
My boat has 6ft headroom. I have a sore head when at home.
--
Dave
Alan Frame
> I've always wondered what this thing called Standing Headroom is for,
> OK its handy for pulling on the waterproof trousers, but what else?
ISTR Uffa Fox suggesting "If you want to stand up, go on deck"
q.v. Bill Lear: "You can't stand up in a Cadillac either." ;-)
rgds, Alan
--
99 Ducati 748BP, 95 Ducati 600SS, 81 Guzzi Monza, 74 MV Agusta 350
"Ride to Work, Work to Ride" SI# 7.067 DoD#1930 PGP Key 0xBDED56C5
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
Martin wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2006 19:54:55 GMT, "Arturo Ui"
> <armaged...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >However, approx 30ft is normally considered the ideal minimum for
> >> >cruising over more than a weekend or so.
> >>
> >> Considered by whom? Sounds like bollocks to me.
> >
> >Hmmm. But a lot of 30ft+ boats have creature comforts like my 22fter
> >doesn't. Whilst there is no upper or lower limit, I can understand people
> >wanting to travel in greater comfort on a bigger boat.
>
As you should know with your Centaur with is has 30ft levels of space
in a 26 foot hull.
If it wasn't for your rather poor snipping you'd have seem most posts
acknowleged that.
Ronald Raygun
> You are right Alistair. I am 5ft 10 and I live in a cottage with a beam
> across at 5ft 9, above my line of sight.
> My boat has 6ft headroom. I have a sore head when at home.
That could just be because there's a bigger booze locker at home.
Nick Temple-Fry
<ni...@temple-fry.COmpletely.UnKnown> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 May 2006 20:12:07 +0100, "TonyB" <Nor...@soxclara.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>
>>I guess the next consideration is whether you need standing headroom and if
>>so you are up to about a 22 -24 footer. Considerations such as inboard or
>>outboard engine also apply. Keel configuration is important, a fin sails a
>>bit better but a bilge keeler will take the ground if you need an emergency
>>stop for overnighting. Bigger than that brings more comfort and space and an
>>ability to handle heavier weather but also greater expense.
>>
>>TonyB
>>
>
>I've always wondered what this thing called Standing Headroom is for,
>OK its handy for pulling on the waterproof trousers, but what else?
>
>Are there whole cohorts of sailors who regular conduct marching
>practise in the privacy of their cabins?.
>
>or is it "Look dear, its got standing headroom, can I now spend the
>kids inheritance" factor.
>
>Actually anyone considering small boat cruising can do little better
>than read Maurice Griffiths either in "Swatchways and Little Ships" or
>"Magic of the Swatchways"
OK - 2 days have past, not a single sailing based argument for
standing headroom.
Why are people telling the OP he needs a 30+ft cruiser (costing 30k or
above) when he can do the same in a 22ft cruiser costing maybe 10k
(all of which he will get back if he sells).
Don't we want to go people to go sailing?
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
> >acknowleged that.
>
> I was thinking of a six week cruise on an Invicta.
What exactly is your point and how does your POV differ from my
original post in its unsnipped state?
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
> I replied to Arturo and not you.
He said: "Whilst there is no upper or lower limit, I can understand
people wanting to travel in greater comfort on a bigger boat. "
Almost everyone on this thread has said the same. There is no lower
limit however (as you can see from boat prices) around 30ft is a point
where all of a sudden boats become *very* usable due to speed and size.
Clearly there are 26 footers with massive space (you own one).
So yeah. There is no 'correct size' or even a 'best size', but if you
_had_ to pick a minimum cruising size I reckon it would be around 30ft.
Clearly the world agrees because you can get an Achilles 25 for £2,500
while anything with decent accomodation (Hunter 26, Centaur) starts at
12,000 and the majority of capable cruising boats will be 30ft+ and
£20k+.
Which doesn't mean you can't cruise in comfort on an Achilles 25. It
just means _most_ people think that an extra bit of speed and space
carries a premium and that magic point where you have enough speed and
space is around 30ft.
What you're doing Martin, you devious old argumentative dog, is to snip
people's posts so it looks like they are saying only 30ft will do.
Which almost nobody is.
(In fact I a little fearful you will reply to this with everything
snipped except 'only 30ft will do'.)
Duncan Heenan
"Nick Temple-Fry" <ni...@temple-fry.COmpletely.UnKnown> wrote in message
news:6ngf6251vji5970hj...@4ax.com...
OK.
Last year whilst circumnavigating Ireland in my 34' AWB, I was put in my
place by meeting a guy doing the same in a 17' folk boat with only a 5'
cuddy to curl up in at night. he said it was a concession to comfort as he
had previously been round in a lazer and on a windsurfer - and he had
evidence that he had!
So sailing can be done in horribly uncomfortable ways; but I think a pretty
good sailing argument for some comfort is that unless you have it you'll end
up giving up sailing all together. Also, before giving up, you'll get so
tired and fed up it could become dangerous.
Tony of Judicious
Several decades ago I spent 3 weeks with a mate cruising from the Solent
round the CIs and Brittany in a Flokboat - 25ft, no standing headroom, 2
stroke Stuart Turner, eyeball navigation, bucket and chuckit.
Had enormous fun.
Think I want someting a bit more comfy now.
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
> Several decades ago I spent 3 weeks with a mate cruising from the Solent
> round the CIs and Brittany in a Flokboat - 25ft, no standing headroom, 2
> stroke Stuart Turner, eyeball navigation, bucket and chuckit.
>
> Had enormous fun.
>
> Think I want someting a bit more comfy now.
Another Bavaria convert!
Floatything
"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:dvte62thh9vkvp1dq...@4ax.com...
> On 14 May 2006 09:25:49 -0700, toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>
>>However, approx 30ft is normally considered the ideal minimum for
>>cruising over more than a weekend or so.
>
>
> Martin
>
I'd argue that the main advantage of a 30 footer over a 17' boat is to do
with its sailing ability: There is no need to reef so early; a 30' boat can
handle poor conditions better than a smaller boat; will plough through waves
more easily; has a faster hull speed; and is (like for like) less likely to
suffer a knockdown from breaking waves.
Of course there are other issues, comfort included, but I think the OP was
more interested in size from a 'sailing' angle, rather than camping,
prestige and size of the drinks cabinet.
Regards
Floatything
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
> I think the OP was
> more interested in size from a 'sailing' angle, rather than camping,
> prestige and size of the drinks cabinet.
*If* that's the case he needs an open dinghy or catamaran with twin
trapeze.
You could easy do Old Harry->Cherbourg in a Dart 18 in 4hours. Strap a
tent and clothes in waterproof bags on it.
Anything with a keel will sail like a dog compared to almost any dinghy
or small cat.
(Despite my pedantry I accept your point.)
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
> On Mon, 15 May 2006 10:04:15 GMT, "Floatything"
> <chris_kn...@thespamntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >news:dvte62thh9vkvp1dq...@4ax.com...
> >> On 14 May 2006 09:25:49 -0700, toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>However, approx 30ft is normally considered the ideal minimum for
> >>>cruising over more than a weekend or so.
> >>
> >> Considered by whom? Sounds like bollocks to me.
> >
> >with its sailing ability:
>
24-29 foot boats are 'about/approx' 30 foot.
So Martin, we all agree there is no correct minimum size for a cruising
boat. However if you _had_ to quantify the unquantifiable and state an
arbitary 'right' minimum size for a cruising boat, what would you opt
for?
Andrew Robert Breen
How long^W short is a piece of string? Plenty of people cruise Drascombes,
suggesting that they find 21'6" to 18'6" acceptable, and a good many
folk cruise Wayfarers (16'6", from memory). Mainly coastal cruising,
of course, but not exclusively. Corrobees and Seals seem to be
used for extended cruising, so 22'-odd seems to be possible. I'd not
regard a Hunter 19 as a cruising boat, but people have used them as
such (it's got the sailing ability, but room is distinctly short).
I'm increasingly getting the impression that there's an under-exploited
sweet spot for a light-displacement boat around the 25'-26' mark
which still sails well. That gives something which can do some proper
cruising in "enough" comfort, but which is still trailable to
a summer (or winter!) sailing area. Fairey hit the mark square
on 50-odd years ago with the Atalanta. I guess the RedFox Vision
might be the nearest thing now...
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
> I'm increasingly getting the impression that there's an under-exploited
> sweet spot for a light-displacement boat around the 25'-26' mark
> which still sails well.
GK24?
Andrew Robert Breen
It's close in a lot of ways, but if the thing is going to get
trailered then that big fin is going to be a pest. Ditto for
mudlarking up creeks or drying out anywhere, of course - and
that means missing some of the nicest places to sail.
I'd say a boat of the sort I'm thinking of needs lifting keel(s)
- ideally twins so as to not eat up the middle of the cabin -
and a keel-up draft of not more than 18" or so. The Atalanta
did it. It shouldn't be difficult 50 years on.
Tony of Judicious
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
> [GK24] is close in a lot of ways, but if the thing is going to get
> trailered then that big fin is going to be a pest. Ditto for
> mudlarking up creeks or drying out anywhere, of course - and
> that means missing some of the nicest places to sail.
> I'd say a boat of the sort I'm thinking of needs lifting keel(s)
> - ideally twins so as to not eat up the middle of the cabin -
> and a keel-up draft of not more than 18" or so. The Atalanta
> did it. It shouldn't be difficult 50 years on.
I see what you're getting at, FWIW am in total agreement. Shallow
draught is so useful in so many ways.
The old E-Boats might come closish as well.
Arturo Ui
Except for banged elbows, knees and scraped back......
Mine's great, but I would prefer a boat with a fixed keel to a lift
keeler (centreboard case takes up room) but then a fin keeler wouldn't
sit upright on my drying mooring.......
They have 4 berths for 'normal' sized people (6'1" seems normal to me!)
but if fitted, the heads are likely to be useable only by a
contortionist. My bucket works very well, and needs no servicing.
The room inside is far in excess of most boats of her size, just a lack
of headroom.
The newer E-Boats had a small raised cabin roof and a non-tapered keel,
but as they are a little slower I'll stick with my older, flush-decked
one. The keel lifts into the hull leaving a draft of approx 9" - easy
enough to get it onto the trailer. (I use poles either side to
centralise it on the trailer)
And the E-Boat feels responsive to sail - the reason I bought it as I
didn't really want to stop sailing dinghies in the first place.
Artie
Graham Frankland
"Nick Temple-Fry" <ni...@temple-fry.COmpletely.UnKnown> wrote in message
news:6ngf6251vji5970hj...@4ax.com...
> standing headroom.
>
> Why are people telling the OP he needs a 30+ft cruiser (costing 30k or
> above) when he can do the same in a 22ft cruiser costing maybe 10k
> (all of which he will get back if he sells).
>
> Don't we want to go people to go sailing?
>
people and purposes. The guy asked for advice on the minimum size of boat
for crossing the channel but admitted he had no experience whatsoever.
Should the reply be merely that one "could" do it in a galvanised bath tub
on a suitable day or, go a bit further and suggest there are more
comfortable and safer ways of doing it?
Having taken advice about easy to sail safe boats for beginners, my first
boat was a (26ft) Centaur - load of crap some may say BUT, they are
reasonably cheap, have a good amount of room, easy motion at sea, small
enough to handle easily and will take quite nasty weather safely. My wife
took to the boat whereas several others we know whose partners had bought
much lighter higher performance boats, just won't sail on them (you must
have met some - "this bloody boat isn't moving while I'm on it") so no
chance of extended cruises for those families. As far as headroom is
concerned, it doesn't matter too much if only day or weekend sailing but
makes life so much easier when spending long periods aboard.
Not everyone wants a racing boat, many want something reasonably comfortable
for weekends and holidays with wife and kids. For those who aren't worried
about keeping up with the Jones' there are hundreds of boats for far less
than £30k, Macwester, Seadog, Westerly, etc.ideally suited to cheap cruising
and although old, much stronger and possibly more sea kindly than the
majority of new similar size boats on the market now.
Graham.
chris
"Tony of Judicious" <tony@deletethis thoward dot plus.dot com> wrote in
message news:446869ed$0$8336$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
Snigger
I wondered if that would elicit a response! :-)
ChrisR
toad_of...@yahoo.co.uk
Unlike the Bavaria I was sailing fairly close to the wind! :-)
Andrew Robert Breen
E-boat is very close in a lot of ways - I like the big flat deck.
Doghouses can be a pain in the parts to have to clamber around.
Ideally, though, this boat would be a bit less big-dinghy and
a bit more yacht-like - and I know this is hard to do while keeping
the weight under the 2-tonne mark. One thing I like about my
Hunter (Europa) is the way she keeps her feet in a sea, compared
to some of the micro-tonners which feel a lot more twitchy
(to me: YMMV). That said, I've not (yet) had the chance to sail
an E, and I suspect the Redfox is a big dinghy-like as well
with those wide sections aft and the lack of ballast in the
keel.
Parker's 235 probably come in to this sort of thng, too.
Andrew Robert Breen
Arturo Ui <turbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The old E-Boats might come closish as well.
>
>Except for banged elbows, knees and scraped back......
>
>Mine's great, but I would prefer a boat with a fixed keel to a lift
>keeler (centreboard case takes up room) but then a fin keeler wouldn't
>sit upright on my drying mooring.......
>
>They have 4 berths for 'normal' sized people (6'1" seems normal to me!)
>but if fitted, the heads are likely to be useable only by a
>contortionist. My bucket works very well, and needs no servicing.
Figures. "Four berth [1]" designs were all the rage at one time.
>The newer E-Boats had a small raised cabin roof and a non-tapered keel,
>but as they are a little slower I'll stick with my older, flush-decked
>one. The keel lifts into the hull leaving a draft of approx 9" - easy
>enough to get it onto the trailer. (I use poles either side to
>centralise it on the trailer)
That sounds nice.
>And the E-Boat feels responsive to sail - the reason I bought it as I
>didn't really want to stop sailing dinghies in the first place.
It isn't just dinghys which are responsive: keelboats manage it
too (Flying 15s, Squibs, Dragons...), and there's a lot to be
said (from the sailing PoV) for a keelboat with a lid. The Achilles
24 is a nice example, but draws too much water for this job.
I maintain that something like this would do the job well. Why
are so few firms doing anything like it?
http://www.hillgf.freeserve.co.uk/joann/
it's 50 years since, dammit.
[1] only if all four are /extremely/ friendly midgets.
Duncan Heenan
> On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:37:17 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
> <duncan...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Last year whilst circumnavigating Ireland in my 34' AWB, I was put in my
>>place by meeting a guy doing the same in a 17' folk boat with only a 5'
>>cuddy to curl up in at night. he said it was a concession to comfort as he
>>had previously been round in a lazer and on a windsurfer - and he had
>>evidence that he had!
>
That's what I said.
> Do you mean a Dutch Volksboot similar to this?
> http://img.2dehands.nl/f/normal/11685522-volksboot-480.jpg
No it had 2 small masts - a tiny gaff rigged ketch.
Arturo Ui
> > more interested in size from a 'sailing' angle, rather than camping,
> > prestige and size of the drinks cabinet.
>
> *If* that's the case he needs an open dinghy or catamaran with twin
> trapeze.
Y'know, there used to be a small cruiser fitted with a trapeze moored at my
sailing club until about 15 years ago - the owners swore that it made it
more fun and responsive, in addition to being that little faster.
Don't know what happened to it, but it was sleek looking - anyone know what
class it was? (I know they had it when they lived in HK too, so Chichester
harbour may not have been its native water)
Artie
Arturo Ui
> a bit more yacht-like - and I know this is hard to do while keeping
> the weight under the 2-tonne mark. One thing I like about my
> Hunter (Europa) is the way she keeps her feet in a sea, compared
> to some of the micro-tonners which feel a lot more twitchy
> (to me: YMMV). That said, I've not (yet) had the chance to sail
> an E, and I suspect the Redfox is a big dinghy-like as well
> with those wide sections aft and the lack of ballast in the
> keel.
Haven't sailed the Europa, but 4 friends own Anderson 22s - they're a
stiffer and slightly more seaworthy boat but have much less room down below.
I must admit that having a whopping great cast iron lump on the bottom of
the keel can't be bettered. Hull design is good, slippery and has a whopper
of a cockpit drain! (Outboard well)
The redfox? I'd like to sail one please, but they're expensive!
I must admit to being tempted by a Conquest 23, but the fixed fin ruled it
out - a shame as it looked better than great!
> Parker's 235 probably come in to this sort of thng, too.
Looks like a good boat - with ballast in the keel too! Fantastic - it must
have been designed by someone who knows about boats!
Any other worthwhile small boats that'd do this trip?
Nigel G
Brian Reay <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> This question is from a total sailing "numbty" so be kind ;-)
>
> How big a yacht would you need to be able to sail safely across the
channel
> and do "coastal hoping" around Europe, including the UK (esp. Scotland)?
>
> I'm thinking "fair weather" sailing but big enough to be safe if weather
> turned on such a "voyage" and you needed time to find a safe harbour.
>
> TIA
>
> Brian
Have you read: Channel Crossing (Sebastian Smith, 2001, Penguin pb)?
Crossed Hythe-Boulogne in a Wayfarer. Might be of interest.
Nigel
Andrew Robert Breen
Nigel G <NoSpamNi...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>Brian Reay <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
>news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>> This question is from a total sailing "numbty" so be kind ;-)
>>
>> How big a yacht would you need to be able to sail safely across the
>channel
>> and do "coastal hoping" around Europe, including the UK (esp. Scotland)?
>Have you read: Channel Crossing (Sebastian Smith, 2001, Penguin pb)?
>Crossed Hythe-Boulogne in a Wayfarer. Might be of interest.
Pshaw.
In 1999 Sandy McKinnon did it in a Mirror, and went on to make his
way to the Black Sea. Mad as a sack of Badgers, of course - but
I'd strongly recommend the book:
http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog/travel/unlikelyvoyage.html
or
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574091522/203-1541886-0065524
--
Andy Breen ~ Speaking for myself, not the University of Wales
"your suggestion rates at four monkeys for six weeks"
(Peter D. Rieden)
TonyB
> >Are there whole cohorts of sailors who regular conduct marching
> >practise in the privacy of their cabins?.
>
TonyB
TonyB
> >> How big a yacht would you need to be able to sail safely across the
> >channel
> >> and do "coastal hoping" around Europe, including the UK (esp.
Scotland)?
I'm sure my Vivacity 650 would do it, although only 21 feet 3 inches she's
roomy enough inside and carries a ton of ballast in the twin keels. It is
thought that 9 of them have sailed the pond. Funny enough, the berth in the
forepeak, while smaller than the Beneteau 331, is easier to get in and out
of. For a boat the size of the Benny, the entrance to the forecabin berth
meant that I was in danger of kneeling on the wife's head just to get in.
( No smart comments thanks! ) On the Vivacity there is slightly more room.
The Benny was perhaps a touch large for two but the big boat feel of the
motion in the water was reassuring, although maybe falsely so.
I would plump for a 24 to 26 footer, the Centaur or the Kent Class being a
good compromise on price versus room.
TonyB
Alastair
wrote:
>In article <e4akn4$kc5$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk>,
>Nigel G <NoSpamNi...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>>Brian Reay <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>>> This question is from a total sailing "numbty" so be kind ;-)
>>>
>>> How big a yacht would you need to be able to sail safely across the
>>channel
>>> and do "coastal hoping" around Europe, including the UK (esp. Scotland)?
>
>>Have you read: Channel Crossing (Sebastian Smith, 2001, Penguin pb)?
>>Crossed Hythe-Boulogne in a Wayfarer. Might be of interest.
>
>Pshaw.
>
>In 1999 Sandy McKinnon did it in a Mirror, and went on to make his
>way to the Black Sea. Mad as a sack of Badgers, of course - but
>I'd strongly recommend the book:
>
>http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog/travel/unlikelyvoyage.html
>
>or
>
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574091522/203-1541886-0065524
>
Or see <http://www.btinternet.com/~sail/cruisebrittany02.htm> for a
cruise from Portland to the C.Is, to St Malo, through the canals to
Arzal, then coastal to Brest, in a 15ft dinghy.
--
Alastair
Pete Styles
Arturo Ui wrote:
>Y'know, there used to be a small cruiser fitted with a trapeze moored at my
>sailing club until about 15 years ago - the owners swore that it made it
>more fun and responsive, in addition to being that little faster.
>
>Don't know what happened to it, but it was sleek looking - anyone know what
>class it was? (I know they had it when they lived in HK too, so Chichester
>harbour may not have been its native water)
>
>Artie
>
I sailed in the Regate Royale a couple of years ago - big regatta in
Cannes - classics, metre boats, dragons and, would you believe it, a
class of Freanch trapeze keelboats (two crew on wires, IIRC). But the
name escapes me for the moment.
Pete Styles
Pete Styles wrote:
> I sailed in the Regate Royale a couple of years ago - big regatta in
> Cannes - classics, metre boats, dragons and, would you believe it, a
> class of Freanch trapeze keelboats (two crew on wires, IIRC). But the
> name escapes me for the moment.
Ah, I remember! The boats were called "Toucans", and I was wrong about
French, they seem to be Swiss.
I've also found some pictures - go to:
http://www.photoaction.com/can04/can04.htm
There you will find a list of boats, examples include "Ex-Psaros",
"Toucancane", "Relac's", "Aquanautic" and others. Select and search for
a variety of pictures.
(PS - I was on "Froya")
Arturo Ui
Not yet - the rumours are really extreme, you know! They are very little
more tender than most other boats of their size - all the Atlantic E-Boat
racers stayed upright and they used the tapered keel like mine has! (Earlier
shape)
The class association is starting to get some racing together again - I
might have to partake.....
Artie
Arturo Ui
> Have you had any problems with the centre plate?
None at all! It is currently on a trailer next to my boat having been
shotblasted, zinc sprayed and epoxy coated. I've just turned it over this
evening and given the thing its final coat of antifouling.
The keelpan (bolts to top of keel, inside the boat) received similar
treatment and is looking good! I'm having the boat lifted onto the keel
this Sunday and will be out on my mooring in a couple of weeks. BTW - I use
5mm galvanised steel wire to lift the keel, not 4mm stainless. I change it
every year (At a cost of about £15.00) and don't worry about the wire
breaking. I've also changed the winch from a Tir-for to a worm-drive winch,
so my son can raise/lower the keel.
Where do you live? There are a few for sale at the mo that aren't on the
website.
Artie
glenn P
"Brian Reay" <s...@website.invalid> wrote in message
news:r_39g.22649$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> This question is from a total sailing "numbty" so be kind ;-)
>
> How big a yacht would you need to be able to sail safely across the
> channel and do "coastal hoping" around Europe, including the UK (esp.
> Scotland)?
>
cees...@gmail.com
After 31 years I have just sold my Seal22 for £2500. Lifting keel, trailable but only sitting headroom. When coastal cruising I often lived aboard for a fortnights holiday in reasonable comfort.
A very capable boat which always looked after me in bad weather. I agree that sufficient headroom to don one's trousers becomes more important with age. For that reason I have just bought a bigger tent for camping on land.
A trailersailer has the big advantage of being able to enjoy different cruising grounds. I sailed the Clyde, Loch Lomond, the Solway to the Isle of Man, the English Lakes, around Anglesey and the Norfolk Broads. Each done within a fortnight or less.