Bavaria, Jeanneau or Beneteau ??
Marc
Thinking of buying a Bavaria 36, Jeanneau 34.2 or
a Beneteau 331. I am completely clueless about the
quality, sailing performance etc. for these boats.
Anyone with a good advise ? Looking for comfort in
the first place, durability and quality in the second
place, good sailing performance in the third place.
regards,
Marc.
james
"Marc" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:aqovuf$ig3$1...@reader12.wxs.nl...
>
> Thinking of buying a Bavaria 36, Jeanneau 34.2 or
> a Beneteau 331. I am completely clueless about the
> quality, sailing performance etc.
Sailing performance will be very good in idillic conditions.
Quality will be 0.6mm thick.
On the plus side......
You will get LOTS of "Etc" ...... All kinds of stuff like fender socks,
Warps (soft ones that wont bend the propshaft too much;) Whistles, bells and
mucho plenty free "extras"
There will be nowhere to put the washboards, And alas they will not supply
the jigsaw you will need when time comes to change the waterpump
impeller........
RichT
> "Marc" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:aqovuf$ig3$1...@reader12.wxs.nl...
> >
> > Thinking of buying a Bavaria 36, Jeanneau 34.2 or
> > a Beneteau 331. I am completely clueless about the
> > quality, sailing performance etc.
>
I take it this is your first boat? They are all good choices, and you will
not regret it whatever you go for. They are not boats that would satisfy the
hard-core sailor, but for safe, economicish coastal cruising they are good
buys. Jeanneau have a new boat out - the 35 - that has replaced the 34.2.
computer
for cruising in relative comfort.
--
www.yachtinguniverse.com daily in depth sailing news.
Sponsoring www.jakejefferis.com
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Marc <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
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>
dennis.pogson
that factory built boats like these are every bit as good, and in some ways
better than the expensive one-offs that pretend to be top-grade boats.
Everything fits, everything is accessible, and that beautiful electrical
wiring! A work of art! Having worked on the manufacturing side of Marks and
Spencer for 30 years, I wouldn't buy a Saville Row suit if you paid me to
wear it!
"computer" <stephen...@spamntlworld.com> wrote in message
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RichT
"computer" <stephen...@spamntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:OL2A9.82$Om4....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> for cruising in relative comfort.
>
comfortable to spend time on, even if it means being half a knot slower. And
don't knock the quality - there are advantages to having a boat that is
built to more everyday standards. I can quite easily match the quality of
joinery, fibreglass work, electrical installation etc on my Jeanneau, so am
happy doing work myself. If I had something like a Hallberg-Rassy with
cabinet-maker quality of joinery, I would never dare do any modifications or
repairs myself.
Robert Seynaeve
means that the boats must be rather strong to survive the groundings and
other heavy treatments they often take there.
The French nautical press is full of articles of people who have taken this
kind of boat around the world without significant problem, although some
local reinforcing could sometimes be useful with such program in mind.
The best production boat companies have been able to optimize their
manufacturing process, and can afford excellent machinery, and good
engineers and designers. The boats are frequently raced hardly by the
customers, so they have to be strong for the company to remain in business.
This does not mean that the Haallberg Rassy's, Oyster's and Swan's do not
have advantages ( I own an Oyster 406). They do, but for most people who can
only go sailing for a limited period every year, and in civilized waters, a
well chosen production boat can be the best choice as it will provide
about the same service at half the investment of the higher range.
One of the best boats I have owned ( for 17 years) was the Beneteau First
30, which was very well built indeed, and sailed very well too.
I have owned boats from
"computer" <stephen...@spamntlworld.com> wrote in message
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Simon Brooke
>
> "computer" <stephen...@spamntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:OL2A9.82$Om4....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>> They are cheap boats, not built for quality nor sailing performance, more
>> for cruising in relative comfort.
>>
> And what is wrong with that?
There's nothing wrong with that, if those are your priorities. But they're
not everyone's priorities and we don't know (because he didn't say) whether
they're the OP's priorities.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
RichT
"Robert Seynaeve" <seyn...@itsyn.it> wrote in message
news:BA4A9.26821$XO.12...@news2.tin.it...
> A lot of the business of these yards comes from the charter fleets, which
> means that the boats must be rather strong to survive the groundings and
> other heavy treatments they often take there.
I'll second that! Last summer I was watching a Moorings Beneteau sailing
along the northwest Corsica coast at about four knots where there is a large
submerged rock marked by a cardinal bouy. I was just thinking to myself,
"hmm, those guys either really know what they are doing ...or", when the
whole boat came to sudden stop, and bounced backwards by a foot or so. The
crew looked a bit surprised that all their sails were now flapping, but
undeterred they started up the motor, reversed out, and set off in another
direction.
RichT
"Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1i07a-...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> There's nothing wrong with that, if those are your priorities. But they're
> not everyone's priorities and we don't know (because he didn't say)
whether
> they're the OP's priorities.
True, but I think if the OP was as experienced as you, he wouldn't have
asked his question, so it wasn't unreasonable for me to put over a
counterpoint to Stephen SUmmer's comment. For people who are not hugely
experienced, these are really good boats. I often see rather scathing
remarks in the British press about these mass-produced boats, and I don't
like to see them getting a knocking. They allow a lot of people to get
access to sailing by virtue of their price, comfort etc. Their success in
the marketplace compared to the traditional British boatbuilders bears
evidence to suggest that they are a good choice for most people.
Peter Styles
A view based on what experience I wonder.
I own a Bavaria 32, and have chartered Beneteau and Jeanneau in the 35 -
41 ft range every year for the past 10. Although I've never been out in
<really> nasty weather in any of them, I've been racing in the sort of
conditions where you fall down the front of waves and get a good view of
the top of the keel of the boat next door. I've never had any moments
where I doubted the boat's ability to look after me. As for sailing
capability, last week in Turkey on a Jeanneau 37 we were doing 8 knots
close to the limit of control on a spinnaker reach in the dark under the
milky way and this was quite magic sailing which would be hard to match
in many 'traditional' cruisers.
FWIW, here are my thoughts:
1. In this day of competition and computer design, the overall concepts
of these boats are very similar, and so both accommodation and sailing
performance will also be similar.
2. The standard of finish and comfort on all three makes is very
similar, and you can judge for yourself if you have any preferences. As
Dennis said, everything fits and the layouts have been exceptionally
well thought out.
3. Of what I've sailed, the Beneteaus seem rather more sluggish than the
other 2 makes, particularly in the light stuff. However, I haven't
sailed the latest generation of Benes or any of the Firsts, so don't
read too much into this. My Bav sails well both on and off the wind, but
is slightly lighter than the other 2 makes and perhaps a little bit more
tender. However, its also shorter than what you are proposing and what I
generally charter, so this may not be relevant.
4. Although you stress comfort rather than sailing ability, don't
underestimate the importance of the latter. Everytime you are facing a
contrary tide, small diffences in performance translate to big
differences it ETA. Speed and maneuverability under power are also
important - my Bav with a sail drive is wonderful, particularly in
reverse where it just goes straight back. In contrast, last week's Jenn
373 showed a marked disinterest in travelling backwards at all. Perhaps
it had a folding prop, I just don't know. However, if you are a new boat
owner, handling under power could be an important issue, so try this on
any demo sails you go on.
5. Even if you are sure that you want the ease of in mast furling, try
to get someone to demonstrate the single line reefing that Bav (and
probably the others) offer. Reefing with this system is much less
traumatic than hanging onto the mast in horrid weather and doesn't have
the substantial drawbacks of in-mast systems (eg terrible sail shape,
danger of jamming and weight aloft).
6. Its no coincidence that the marinas are full of boats from these
manufacturers. They represent wonderful value, and the present
generation have been the result of a couple of decades of steady
development.
7. Enjoy
HTH
Pete.
Graham Frankland
news:OL2A9.82$Om4....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> for cruising in relative comfort.
>
anything else and to a lot of people they represent good value for money,
especially wives who look at them in a similar way to caravans. Personally,
I'd rather spend my money on a better built used boat (Moody, Westerly etc)
for the same price.
Graham.
TonyD
news:U_idnZc5j7u...@brightview.com...
And don't forget the depreciation! Assuming you won't keep this boat
forever, when you come to sell a good second hand Moody, Rassy etc you
should recover most of what you paid - maybe even more. It is unlikely you
will find the same with a Beneteau etc. especially if you have bought new.
Tony
computer
--
www.yachtinguniverse.com daily in depth sailing news.
Sponsoring www.jakejefferis.com
Sponsoring Bosham Fireworks www.boshamsc.co.uk
dennis.pogson <dennisnos...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3D3A9.152$1%5.32841@newsfep2-gui...
dennis.pogson
news:4us2tuc9l5a2qubbm...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:14:07 -0000, "dennis.pogson"
> <dennisnos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Having worked on the manufacturing side of Marks and
> > Spencer for 30 years, I wouldn't buy a Saville Row suit if you paid me
to
> > wear it!
>
> --
> m.
Since we made 'em, I used my prerogative to carry out "user trials"! Don't
think Beneteau would be quite so forthcoming!
dennis.pogson
anyway, but my experience is based on hands-on working with the boats. The
first time you make something, it's full of errors, or can be improved on
the next one. The thousandth time you make it, the errors are non-existant,
and design engineering has made the item virtually incapable of improvement.
Having worked in mass-production all my life, I know this to be a fact.
BTW, the standing rigging on the 2 Beneteaus was cut so accurately that when
the rig was tensioned up, each bottlescrew had precisely 2cm of screw thread
showing top and bottom, and the mast was absolutely dead straight. Now
that's precision!
dennis.pogson
news:3dd18...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
up for half price. Same with a Bentley or a Roller. Now whilst the boat
market is different, I don't think anyone is going to pay more than the new
price for a 2-year old yacht, no matter who made it.
Chris Lowe
>>>>
>>>
>>>Durability isn't too good on any of them but, you get what you pay for
>>
>>like
>>
>>>anything else and to a lot of people they represent good value for
>>
> money,
>
>>>especially wives who look at them in a similar way to caravans.
>>
>>Personally,
>>
>>>I'd rather spend my money on a better built used boat (Moody, Westerly
>>
>>etc)
>>
>>>for the same price.
>>>
>>>Graham.
>>>
>>
>>And don't forget the depreciation! Assuming you won't keep this boat
>>forever, when you come to sell a good second hand Moody, Rassy etc you
>>should recover most of what you paid - maybe even more. It is unlikely
>
> you
>
>>will find the same with a Beneteau etc. especially if you have bought new.
>>
>>Tony
>>
>
> I don't think that's true. A lovely BMW 7 series, 2 years old, can be picked
> up for half price. Same with a Bentley or a Roller. Now whilst the boat
> market is different, I don't think anyone is going to pay more than the new
> price for a 2-year old yacht, no matter who made it.
>
>
>
no but if you buy a 10 year old boat of a good design and sell it five
years later you can often sell it for more than you paid for it,
somtimes even taking inflation into account
computer
flimsy and poorly put together on the Jeanneau. Changing rooms could have
done a better job.
--
www.yachtinguniverse.com daily in depth sailing news.
Sponsoring www.jakejefferis.com
Sponsoring Bosham Fireworks www.boshamsc.co.uk
dennis.pogson <dennisnos...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:nKpA9.507$CT5....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
Chris Lowe
>>showing top and bottom, and the mast was absolutely dead straight. Now
>>that's precision!
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
I went on a jeanneau at the boat show a couple of years ago. I sat down
under the saloon table and lifted it off its mountings with my legs. on
closer examination I found it had been held on with 3 no10 by 12mm
screws with about 3 turn biting in the tabletop (no glue at all). I
hope the rest of the woodwork was more solid but I came away very
unimpressed
Kevin O'Farrell
quality gear - most of it lewmar and harkin. As for performance - I
doubt you'll get a better cruiser/racers on the market. Can your boat
but 8 knots upwind? Can it do 20 downwind in a blow?
Graham Frankland
> "TonyD" <tony...@lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:3dd18...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
> > forever, when you come to sell a good second hand Moody, Rassy etc you
> > should recover most of what you paid - maybe even more. It is unlikely
> you
> > will find the same with a Beneteau etc. especially if you have bought
new.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> I don't think that's true. A lovely BMW 7 series, 2 years old, can be
picked
> up for half price. Same with a Bentley or a Roller. Now whilst the boat
> market is different, I don't think anyone is going to pay more than the
new
> price for a 2-year old yacht, no matter who made it.
>
factory - £51,176 incl VAT. They sell 2nd hand now for anything up to
£59,000 depending on condition and level of equipment.
Westerly Berwicks 1978 boats selling for £26,000+
Centaurs same age £14,000+ now
At the top of the market, look at the price of Hallberg Rassy, because of
the delivery wait people are paying more for 2nd hand than new.
Graham.
Graham Frankland
>The
> first time you make something, it's full of errors, or can be improved on
> the next one. The thousandth time you make it, the errors are
non-existant,
> and design engineering has made the item virtually incapable of
improvement.
> Having worked in mass-production all my life, I know this to be a fact.
> BTW, the standing rigging on the 2 Beneteaus was cut so accurately that
when
> the rig was tensioned up, each bottlescrew had precisely 2cm of screw
thread
> showing top and bottom, and the mast was absolutely dead straight. Now
> that's precision!
>
recalls at less than 12 months old and, one of which had to have the mast
support post replaced because the original was too short and the coachroof
was deflecting?
Also, why do Jeannneau & Bavaria main bulkheads break loose following
groundings which repairers say most other makes would withstand?
Why, when we were looking at various boats did my insurers advise me not to
go near an Oceanis unless I wanted to pay a loaded premium because of their
experience with structural failures and one of stability/righting problems?
The problem with mass production design engineering is that everything is
cut to the bone to shave as much off the cost as possible and maximise
profit.
Someone previously mentioned resale value. Early Westerlies and Moodys cost
far more now at 25-30 years old than their original purchase cost but, I
doubt if these lightly built boats will be around 2nd hand after that length
of time.
Graham.
dennis.pogson
have complete control over Jeaneau's manufacturing process, besides, when
did these complaints come to light?
Westerlies (circa 1970's) used to be total crap, but they got their act
together during the '80's and 90's. Moody's have always been well enough
built, but even so Moody 33's were not that good ( perhaps this was their
first excursion into mass production.
I have owned and kept boats for 12 years and more, and kidded myself that a
boat bought in 1975 for 20 grand and sold for 25 grand in 1988 actually made
a profit! What about the decrease in purchasing power of the £, and the
enormous amount of improvement added to the boat during ownership?
Currently sailing on ( but do not own) a Beneteau 50, built in Florida in
1990. The construction, interior fittings, and strength of this boat are
simply superb. Newly upholstered last year, she is like new, despite
frequent charters, and the cost (bought from Croatia 2 years ago,) would
astonish most owners of one-off expensive yachts. Perhaps the Yanks are
better at mass-production than the French, but I doubt it.
Graham Frankland
> Westerlies (circa 1970's) used to be total crap, but they got their act
> together during the '80's and 90's.
>
Centaurs alone were built, plus many 31, 33 & 36ft models most of which are
still being sailed today. The Ed Dubois designs in the 80's such as the
Konsort & Fulmar also sold and sailed well. I doubt there are many other
manufacturers with such a successful record but many people in the trade
think that Westerly actually lost the plot in the 90's and that's why they
kept going bust.
Moody also have problems in that with their heavier build quality and higher
manufacturing costs in the UK they can't compete against the French mass
produced boats so no longer build anything under 38ft.
> I have owned and kept boats for 12 years and more, and kidded myself that
a
> boat bought in 1975 for 20 grand and sold for 25 grand in 1988 actually
made
> a profit! What about the decrease in purchasing power of the £, and the
> enormous amount of improvement added to the boat during ownership?
>
Previously, you compared boats with cars but the situation is totally
different. Whereas new car values drop as soon as you put them on the road
and depreciate in most cases to virtually zero in 10 years or so, a well
built boat will actually sell for more than it's original purchase price
after the same time. Equipment added increases value or, alternatively,
some of it can be transferred to the next boat.
Of course devaluation of currency plays a part and so does the cost of
maintenance and this varies wildly depending on whether professional or DIY
but that applies to everything one buys. Unlike most sports and hobbies, at
least there's something to trade in for the wheel chair at the end of the
day.
Graham.
