I've had it with Optimate

[Simon Wilson]

I've had a couple of bikes in a neighbour's for a few months with
Optimates (early type model 2) connected to them. I collected them both
today, neither of them start (barely turn over), despite the Optimate
green light being on. Neither battery is very old.

Which is the ctek charger of choice?

--
/Simon

[Pete Fisher]

I had a pikey Aldi charger which worked OK for about three years. I
recently replaced it with a more recent offering with a fancy digital
display which actually shows the voltage. Too early to say yet.

I thought it was received wisdom not to leave an Optimate or even a Ctek
on for long continuous periods? Also a no-no to leave connected but not
switched on. One dodge I've heard is to use a timer to charge for just
an hour each day.


--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: Pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk
|
| Aprilia Shiver Yamaha WR250Z/Supermoto "Old Gimmer's Hillclimber"
|
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 YZ450F Supermoto "Evaluation for the
lad"|
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[Salad Dodger]

Simon Wilson <siwi...@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've had a couple of bikes in a neighbour's for a few months with
> Optimates (early type model 2) connected to them. I collected them both
> today, neither of them start (barely turn over), despite the Optimate
> green light being on. Neither battery is very old.

My Optimate gave "green lights" on the batteries on two out of three bikes
recently, but neither could hold a charge for more than a minute or two.

>
> Which is the ctek charger of choice?

<watches thread>




--
SD

[wessie]

Simon Wilson <siwi...@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote in
news:afnv1h...@mid.individual.net:

> I've had a couple of bikes in a neighbour's for a few months with
> Optimates (early type model 2) connected to them. I collected them
> both today, neither of them start (barely turn over), despite the
> Optimate green light being on. Neither battery is very old.
>

I only use my Optimate mk2 for top-ups for a day or two at a time. They
don't like any form of power outage as they remain powered by the
battery, LED glowing. If the mains comes back on they don't reset
themselves so the battery eventually discharges if there is a clock or
alarm. To reset them you need to disconnect from the mains & battery and
start again. Later models fully reset the charging cycle after a power
outage - mk4 onwards probably

> Which is the ctek charger of choice?
>

http://www.ctekchargers.co.uk/ctek-xs08.php will be fine for motorcycles
http://www.ctekchargers.co.uk/ctek-mxs-3.6.php if you want to charge car
or leisure batteries as well

[Simon Wilson]

On 04/11/2012 20:09, wessie wrote:
> Simon Wilson <siwi...@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:afnv1h...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> I've had a couple of bikes in a neighbour's for a few months with
>> Optimates (early type model 2) connected to them. I collected them
>> both today, neither of them start (barely turn over), despite the
>> Optimate green light being on. Neither battery is very old.
>>
>
> I only use my Optimate mk2 for top-ups for a day or two at a time.

Trouble with this is remembering to plug them in/out.

> They don't like any form of power outage as they remain powered by the
> battery, LED glowing.

This I knew, to my cost.

> If the mains comes back on they don't reset
> themselves so the battery eventually discharges if there is a clock or
> alarm. To reset them you need to disconnect from the mains & battery and
> start again.

This is didn't. I thought they reset just by unplugging thme from the
mains (or the power coming back on after a cut), I didn't think they had
to be unplugged from the battery?

Anyway, whatever, I've lost too many batteries to them now.

> Later models fully reset the charging cycle after a power
> outage - mk4 onwards probably
>
>> Which is the ctek charger of choice?
>>
>
> http://www.ctekchargers.co.uk/ctek-xs08.php will be fine for motorcycles

Yes I think I'll try a few of these. They're ok for keeping bigger
batteries going too it seems.

> http://www.ctekchargers.co.uk/ctek-mxs-3.6.php if you want to charge car
> or leisure batteries as well
>

Thanks.

--
/Simon

[wessie]

Simon Wilson <siwi...@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote in news:afo0meFtv35U1
@mid.individual.net:

>> http://www.ctekchargers.co.uk/ctek-xs08.php will be fine for motorcycles
>
> Yes I think I'll try a few of these. They're ok for keeping bigger
> batteries going too it seems.
>

yes, they'll top up a partially discharged car battery, eventually. They
may not have enough oomph to overcome the initial resistance of a fully
discharged car battery.

[Nige]

"Simon Wilson" <siwi...@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:afnv1h...@mid.individual.net...

After my optimate went tits killing the 12r battery, i have a mk4 that i put
on the trumpet for a day very other week.

Seems ok so far

[Jeweller]

On 04/11/2012 19:46, Simon Wilson wrote:

I've had my 'winter' bike constantly on charge with my optimate and
yesterday it started at the first attempt.
What am I doing wrong?

--
www.davidhowardjeweller.co.uk

[Simon Wilson]

Dunno.

I've had the expensive AGM battery on charge for a while with a more
conventional charger but it still wouldn't start the bike damnit. Went
straight away when I jumped it.

*sigh*

--
/Simon

[Pete Fisher]

The Westco on my MX5 took ages (days) to come back up to a decent charge
after the crap old alarm on it ran it flat. That was after fooling an
Optimate in to trickle charge it by first connecting an old needle on a
dial type charger for a while.

[Krusty]

Lots of people including myself have done the same. Lots of people
including myself have discovered that when the Optimate starts to fail,
it kills batteries without you realising. So what you're doing wrong is
assuming that your Optimate will continue to work perfectly forever; it
probably won't, & it will probably kill at least one battery before you
notice.

--
Krusty

Raptor 1000 MV 750 Senna Fantic Hiro 250

[Percy Flage]

+1

I've given up on Optimates, having got through 3 or 4 of them. I bought
a CTEK after reading in here and it's performed fine. Mind you, I've
only had it since Christmas.

********
My Optimate died over the Christmas break. I researched here last night
and found the thread Nige started in July "Batteries, charging & swearing"

Saw this

________
www.tayna.co.uk and try autoexp on checkout for 5% off
they stock Ctek chargers & Westco gel batteries.
________

and ordered a Ctek charger with marine 12v adaptor for �45. Should be
with me tomorrow. Comes with a 5 year warranty which beats Accumate's
Optimate 2 year warranty. I've had 3 (possibly 4) Optimates in 12 years,
time for a change.
********


--
Percy Flage
"Life is too short to have to explain everyday."

[Hog]

I know it's expensive but it really is nice to own
www.ctekchargers.co.uk/ctek-mxs-10.php

--
Hog

[Simon Wilson]

On 07/11/2012 07:55, sweller wrote:

> Simon Wilson wrote:
>
>> I've had a couple of bikes in a neighbour's for a few months with
>> Optimates (early type model 2) connected to them. I collected them
>> both today, neither of them start (barely turn over), despite the
>> Optimate green light being on. Neither battery is very old.
>

> I don't have an Optimate but I do have an Accumate - I have a number of
> bikes with 6v systems.
>
> That has kept some infrequently used and elderly batteries up to the
> mark.
>
> The Guzzi has a five year old battery and that hasn't been road legal
> for a couple of years and it will still start fine.
>
> As does a four year old 6v on the MZ and I haven't ridden that in anger
> for a number of years. It started fine a couple of months ago after
> being given the green light by the Accumate.
>
> I had heard that the charging circuitry in the Accumates was better
> than the Optimates. Don't know how true that is but I've not had any
> real problems with it and batteries.
>

I have a SOBSA with a 6v battery that's been hooked up to a 6/12v
switchable Accumate for quite a long time now. The battery still lights
the lights which is all that's needed. In a couple of weeks time it
won't need an MOT.

--
/Simon

[Simon Wilson]

On 04/11/2012 19:46, Simon Wilson wrote:

The ctek's have arrived and seem ok so far, but need a long term test.
They claim to be fit and forget, no matter how long for, we shall see.

The AGM battery has recovered somewhat, but that was accomplished by
almost completely discharging it with a headlight bulb (didn't take
long) and then re-charging it with an Optimate. Then it had enough oomph
to start the bike.

I tried the same with the ordinary lead-acid. The both the ctek and the
optimate reckoned the battery was ok, pressing the starter button
results in the motor engaging, but no turnage. It's dead, Jim.

--
/Simon

[havo...@googlemail.com]

Gentlemen,

I work for ProBike Ltd, the UK distributor on TecMate chargers and workshop tools. We've had this thread brought to our attention as there are a number posts that are somewhat misinformed. I hope that you give us an opportunity to bring a few facts into the discussion.

It is possible for OptiMate to give a "green light" and yet the battery does not have sufficient power to crank the engine. The test performed by OptiMate assesses whether or not the battery is capable of retaining a charge without support, not how much power is available when fully charged. To test the battery's capacity it will need to be subjected to a load and it would also have to know how large the battery was in order to offer the correct load to make this assessment. Unfortunately there is only so much you can squeeze into a £60 retail charger.

Regarding the claims where OptiMate does not reset after a power outage... All OptiMate and AccuMate chargers will reset after a power outage unless the loss of supply is less than a few milliseconds. This is not the case with some other manufacturers charges, specifically those which require the mode to be selected prior to charging. The only situation where an OptiMate would not resume charging after a power outage is if the battery had become discharged below 2V. In early stages of OptiMate development it was possible for the charger to create a reverse current drain of 40mA, however this only occured if the charger was connected to the battery but not switched on at the mains. Please bear in mind that this level of drain would need the power to be out for almost 2 weeks before even a small starter battery would be discharge to below this threshold. From 2004 the reverse current drain is that low it would take many months for the charger to discharge the completely battery.

"I thought it was received wisdom not to leave an Optimate or even a Ctek

on for long continuous periods?"... I could not possibly comment on other brands of charger, however this is certainly not the case with OptiMate. These chargers are designed to be left connected to offer support to batteries fitted to vehicles that are used infrequently. Please bear in mind that OptiMate operates on a 50% duty cycle in maintenance mode - That is a 30 minutes of offering a float charge followed by 30 minutes of pause. During this pause the charger assesses the batteries ability to retain a charge. It is perfectly safe to leave OptiMate connected when in this stage for days, weeks or even months at a time.

There also appears to be a "myth" that lead acid batteries need to be deep discharged prior to recharge in order to get the best capacity from them. Although this method can be used to help large wet cell deep cycle batteries (used in motive power and storage applications) that are suffering from stratification, it is not suitable for improving performance in starter batteries. If you deep discharge a starter battery this will in fact reduce the performance and can make it unserviceable within a few cycles.

Finally, both ourselves and TecMate are here to give support for the products we supply. If you have a query about your OptiMate or AccuMate charger please do not hesitate to contact us.

best regards

ProBike Ltd
Unit 4, Sterling Business Park
Brackmills
Northampton
NN4 7EX
UK

Tel: +44 1604 660777
Fax: +44 1604 660444

Web: www.OptiMate.co.uk
Email: Sa...@OptiMate.co.uk

[Wicked Uncle Nigel]

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique,
havo...@googlemail.com typed

>Gentlemen,
>
>I work for ProBike Ltd, the UK distributor on TecMate chargers and
>workshop tools. We've had this thread brought to our attention as there
>are a number posts that are somewhat misinformed. I hope that you give
>us an opportunity to bring a few facts into the discussion.
>

Fair play for responding, thank you.

And yet...

I have certainly had a battery totally flattened by an Optimate in the
past, following a power cut. Is the reset thing a new(ish) feature?

You mention that the "unless the loss of power is less than a few
milliseconds". What happens if it *is* less than a few milliseconds?

--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"

Contains moderate bullshit and simulated opinions.

[Jeweller]

On 09/11/2012 17:23, havo...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> I work for ProBike Ltd,

> best regards
>

And best regards to you at Probike.
So it's not just my luck that my Optimate worked for me.
Much obliged.


--
www.davidhowardjeweller.co.uk

[Dan L]

Jeweller <dgho...@GEEmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/11/2012 17:23, havo...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> Gentlemen,
>>
>> I work for ProBike Ltd,
>
>> best regards
>>
>
> And best regards to you at Probike.
> So it's not just my luck that my Optimate worked for me.
> Much obliged.
>

My bikes have always been left plugged into an Optimate when in the shed
with no a apparent ill effects (to date).


--
Dan L on the move

[Simon Wilson]

On 09/11/2012 17:23, havo...@googlemail.com wrote:

> Gentlemen,
>
> I work for ProBike Ltd, the UK distributor on TecMate chargers and workshop tools. We've had this thread brought to our attention as there are a number posts that are somewhat misinformed. I hope that you give us an opportunity to bring a few facts into the discussion.
>

> It is possible for OptiMate to give a "green light" and yet the battery does not have sufficient power to crank the engine. The test performed by OptiMate assesses whether or not the battery is capable of retaining a charge without support, not how much power is available when fully charged. To test the battery's capacity it will need to be subjected to a load and it would also have to know how large the battery was in order to offer the correct load to make this assessment. Unfortunately there is only so much you can squeeze into a Ł60 retail charger.

>
> Regarding the claims where OptiMate does not reset after a power outage... All OptiMate and AccuMate chargers will reset after a power outage unless the loss of supply is less than a few milliseconds. This is not the case with some other manufacturers charges, specifically those which require the mode to be selected prior to charging. The only situation where an OptiMate would not resume charging after a power outage is if the battery had become discharged below 2V. In early stages of OptiMate development it was possible for the charger to create a reverse current drain of 40mA, however this only occured if the charger was connected to the battery but not switched on at the mains. Please bear in mind that this level of drain would need the power to be out for almost 2 weeks before even a small starter battery would be discharge to below this threshold. From 2004 the reverse current drain is that low it would take many months for the charger to discharge the completely battery.
>
> "I thought it was received wisdom not to leave an Optimate or even a Ctek
> on for long continuous periods?"... I could not possibly comment on other brands of charger, however this is certainly not the case with OptiMate. These chargers are designed to be left connected to offer support to batteries fitted to vehicles that are used infrequently. Please bear in mind that OptiMate operates on a 50% duty cycle in maintenance mode - That is a 30 minutes of offering a float charge followed by 30 minutes of pause. During this pause the charger assesses the batteries ability to retain a charge. It is perfectly safe to leave OptiMate connected when in this stage for days, weeks or even months at a time.
>
> There also appears to be a "myth" that lead acid batteries need to be deep discharged prior to recharge in order to get the best capacity from them. Although this method can be used to help large wet cell deep cycle batteries (used in motive power and storage applications) that are suffering from stratification, it is not suitable for improving performance in starter batteries. If you deep discharge a starter battery this will in fact reduce the performance and can make it unserviceable within a few cycles.
>
> Finally, both ourselves and TecMate are here to give support for the products we supply. If you have a query about your OptiMate or AccuMate charger please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> best regards
>
> ProBike Ltd
> Unit 4, Sterling Business Park
> Brackmills
> Northampton
> NN4 7EX
> UK
>
> Tel: +44 1604 660777
> Fax: +44 1604 660444
>
> Web: www.OptiMate.co.uk
> Email: Sa...@OptiMate.co.uk
>

Indeed, thank you very much for your post. But my point remains, I left
two bikes for "quite a few" (maybe 6) months, each with their own
Optimate permanently connected. Both of them showed the green light
every time I (infrequently) checked on them. Both batteries were less
than one year old, one an AGM and the other a normal lead acid.

When I tried to start them, neither had sufficient energy to start the
engine. The bike with the AGM would turn over for a couple of revs, but
would not start. The lead acid battery won't crank the other bike, nor
will it recover.

This is not the first time this has happened to me, I have lost many
batteries that have been left on permanent charge.

The particular chargers I use (I have about 6 of them) are the "old"
Optimate 2. There appears to be a newer model also called the Optimate 2.

--
/Simon

[Pete Fisher]

On 09/11/2012 17:23, havo...@googlemail.com wrote:

> Gentlemen,
>
> I work for ProBike Ltd, the UK distributor on TecMate chargers and workshop tools. We've had this thread brought to our attention as there are a number posts that are somewhat misinformed. I hope that you give us an opportunity to bring a few facts into the discussion.
>

> It is possible for OptiMate to give a "green light" and yet the battery does not have sufficient power to crank the engine. The test performed by OptiMate assesses whether or not the battery is capable of retaining a charge without support, not how much power is available when fully charged. To test the battery's capacity it will need to be subjected to a load and it would also have to know how large the battery was in order to offer the correct load to make this assessment. Unfortunately there is only so much you can squeeze into a Ł60 retail charger.

>
> Regarding the claims where OptiMate does not reset after a power outage... All OptiMate and AccuMate chargers will reset after a power outage unless the loss of supply is less than a few milliseconds. This is not the case with some other manufacturers charges, specifically those which require the mode to be selected prior to charging. The only situation where an OptiMate would not resume charging after a power outage is if the battery had become discharged below 2V. In early stages of OptiMate development it was possible for the charger to create a reverse current drain of 40mA, however this only occured if the charger was connected to the battery but not switched on at the mains. Please bear in mind that this level of drain would need the power to be out for almost 2 weeks before even a small starter battery would be discharge to below this threshold. From 2004 the reverse current drain is that low it would take many months for the charger to discharge the completely battery.
>
> "I thought it was received wisdom not to leave an Optimate or even a Ctek
> on for long continuous periods?"... I could not possibly comment on other brands of charger, however this is certainly not the case with OptiMate. These chargers are designed to be left connected to offer support to batteries fitted to vehicles that are used infrequently. Please bear in mind that OptiMate operates on a 50% duty cycle in maintenance mode - That is a 30 minutes of offering a float charge followed by 30 minutes of pause. During this pause the charger assesses the batteries ability to retain a charge. It is perfectly safe to leave OptiMate connected when in this stage for days, weeks or even months at a time.
>

Very informative.

I confess that my only experience of an Optimate is one of your very
earliest versions. I seemed to recall having to touch the clips together
on that to reset it - but being an old gimmer I may well be misremembering.

Without a battery tender connection I'm still wary of relying on a
charger unattended and connected indefinitely - but that's more of a
concern for a crocodile clip[1] making a spontaneous bid for freedom as
ICBA to rig up a dedicated socket on every bike in my fleet.

So, what exactly went wrong with Mr Wilsons scenario? I suppose it
depends on what he means by the batteries in question being "not very
old". As WUN suggests. What happens if there is a 'brown out' rather
than a full power cut on the older Optimates at least?


[1] Which it has to be said is one of the failings on some pikey
chargers sold as suitable for motorcycle use. The clips can be a bit
chunky to get on to some battery terminals in situ.

[ogden]

Dan L wrote:
>
> My bikes have always been left plugged into an Optimate when in the
shed
> with no a apparent ill effects (to date).

I just ride the bike occasionally, or (as is the case with the gixer at
the moment) took the battery out and stored it somewhere warmer than the
garage.

Cheaper than a charger, easier than installing a mains feed into the
garage.

--
ogden

990SMT - bouncy orange tractor
GSXR1000 - vintage sports-tourer

[frag]

havo...@googlemail.com burbled...

>
> In
> early stages of OptiMate development it was possible for the charger
> to create a reverse current drain of 40mA, however this only occured
> if the charger was connected to the battery but not switched on at the
> mains.

That'll be mine then.

It might require > 2 weeks but when you have a bike laid up, and the
battery is being maintained by the Optimate which the damn cleaner then
unplugs to power her hoover and doesn't plug back in, well. Bye bye
battery.

I don't suppose there's a mod one can do to the PCB in the charger to
reduce the current drain? I know just sticking a diode in line won't do
it as the Optimate will not know about the 0.7V drop across the diode.

> Finally, both ourselves and TecMate are here to give support for the
> products we supply. If you have a query about your OptiMate or
> AccuMate charger please do not hesitate to contact us.

Your feedback is appreciated.


--
frag

[frag]

Wicked Uncle Nigel burbled...

>
> Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique,
> havo...@googlemail.com typed
> >Gentlemen,
> >
> >I work for ProBike Ltd, the UK distributor on TecMate chargers and
> >workshop tools. We've had this thread brought to our attention as there
> >are a number posts that are somewhat misinformed. I hope that you give
> >us an opportunity to bring a few facts into the discussion.
> >
>
> Fair play for responding, thank you.
>
> And yet...
>
> I have certainly had a battery totally flattened by an Optimate in the
> past, following a power cut. Is the reset thing a new(ish) feature?
>
> You mention that the "unless the loss of power is less than a few
> milliseconds". What happens if it *is* less than a few milliseconds?

I presume it just carries on without any "drop out" in the charging
voltage, i.e. a mains drop out of less than a few milliseconds will have
absolutely no effect. Or it may blow up. :)

--
frag

[frag]

Simon Wilson burbled...

>
> This is not the first time this has happened to me, I have lost many
> batteries that have been left on permanent charge.
>
> The particular chargers I use (I have about 6 of them) are the "old"
> Optimate 2. There appears to be a newer model also called the Optimate 2.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/water_loss_acid_stratificatio
n_and_surface_charge

Acid Stratification or Surface Charge?

The latter would seem to be more likely if no / very light loads are put
on the battery.

However neither of them mention permanent damage, but you don't know if
they're considering permanent damage over a time period of hours / days
/ weeks or 6 months.

Or is your garage a constant 50 degrees C? :)


--
frag

[Krusty]

Electronic thing in works fine 'til it stops working fine non-shocker.

[Simon Wilson]

On 09/11/2012 19:24, frag wrote:
> Simon Wilson burbled...
>>
>> This is not the first time this has happened to me, I have lost many
>> batteries that have been left on permanent charge.
>>
>> The particular chargers I use (I have about 6 of them) are the "old"
>> Optimate 2. There appears to be a newer model also called the Optimate 2.
>
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/water_loss_acid_stratificatio
> n_and_surface_charge
>
> Acid Stratification or Surface Charge?

<shrug>

>
> The latter would seem to be more likely if no / very light loads are put
> on the battery.
>
> However neither of them mention permanent damage, but you don't know if
> they're considering permanent damage over a time period of hours / days
> / weeks or 6 months.
>
> Or is your garage a constant 50 degrees C? :)
>
>

Er, no.

--
/Simon

[Mark Olson]

On 11/9/2012 12:47 PM, ogden wrote:
> Dan L wrote:
>>
>> My bikes have always been left plugged into an Optimate when in the
> shed
>> with no a apparent ill effects (to date).
>
> I just ride the bike occasionally, or (as is the case with the gixer at
> the moment) took the battery out and stored it somewhere warmer than the
> garage.
>
> Cheaper than a charger, easier than installing a mains feed into the
> garage.

Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
they are, the quicker they self-discharge. It would have been better
to just remove the negative lead (so the battery didn't discharge
from powering an alarm or some other constant drain from the bike)
and just leave it installed, out in the cold garage.

Which is exactly what I do, and my bikes start right up in the spring.

You do not have to worry about the battery freezing unless you're
in the polar regions- freezing point for a fully charged battery
is some ridiculous number like -55C. And as I said, if you store
it charged it won't significantly self- discharge so long as it is
kept cold. Sealed batteries are far better at this than conventional
ones. A conventional non-sealed battery, I'd still leave in the cold
but hook a charger up to it once every 3-4 weeks or so.

If you don't believe this, check out Yuasa's very good technical
manual on batteries:

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/literature.php then click on

"2009 Yuasa Technical Manual (1.3 mb)"

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2009.pdf

[Mark Olson]

On 11/9/2012 2:07 PM, boots wrote:

> I spent ages working on testing some telecoms equipment that did
> suffer badly with momentary drops. Long ones were ok, all the voltage
> rails collapsed and if there was no backup it died. Short ones would
> seen the (IIRC) -12v fail and a complete lockup needing a site visit
> to recover.
>
> Never did get it sorted despite SW changes and dicking around with
> different capacitors.

Care to name names? I formerly worked for a Telecoms equipment OEM and
wondered if it was anything I had a hand on.

[Dan L]

ogden <og...@pre.org> wrote:
> Dan L wrote:
>>
>> My bikes have always been left plugged into an Optimate when in the
> shed
>> with no a apparent ill effects (to date).
>
> I just ride the bike occasionally, or (as is the case with the gixer at
> the moment) took the battery out and stored it somewhere warmer than the
> garage.
>
> Cheaper than a charger, easier than installing a mains feed into the
> garage.

Unfortunately mine doesn't get out as much as yours. Must try to remedy
that next year, perhaps a change of machine...

[ogden]

Mark Olson wrote:
>
> On 11/9/2012 12:47 PM, ogden wrote:
> > Dan L wrote:
> >>
> >> My bikes have always been left plugged into an Optimate when in the
> > shed
> >> with no a apparent ill effects (to date).
> >
> > I just ride the bike occasionally, or (as is the case with the gixer at
> > the moment) took the battery out and stored it somewhere warmer than the
> > garage.
> >
> > Cheaper than a charger, easier than installing a mains feed into the
> > garage.
>
> Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
> they are, the quicker they self-discharge.

Odd. I thought it was the exact opposite.

Anyway, having it indoors makes it much easier to hook it up to a
charger occasionally, and it's in a nominally unheated part of the
house, so it'll do.

[Champ]

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 14:08:49 -0600, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid>
wrote:

>Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
>they are, the quicker they self-discharge.

That's he exact opposite of my understanding.
--
Champ
We declare that the splendour of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed.
ZX10R | Hayabusa | GPz750turbo
neal at champ dot org dot uk

[ogden]

One of mine gets out five times a week.

The other isn't due to be out again til Spring.

[Mark Olson]

On 11/9/2012 2:24 PM, Champ wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 14:08:49 -0600, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
>> they are, the quicker they self-discharge.
>
> That's he exact opposite of my understanding.

It is for most people- but please, read the Yuasa technical manual.

It's one of the best free resources on vehicle batteries I have ever
run across.

[davethedave]

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:11:52 +0000, frag wrote:

> It might require > 2 weeks but when you have a bike laid up, and the
> battery is being maintained by the Optimate which the damn cleaner then
> unplugs to power her hoover and doesn't plug back in, well. Bye bye
> battery.

There's a mod you can do to the cleaner. Adopt a stern tone of voice and
say "Touch it again and you're sacked!".
--
davethedave

[wessie]

Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:pjpq98phmtp9otd7ju80i76rte9q4jcrkd@
4ax.com:

> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 14:08:49 -0600, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
>>they are, the quicker they self-discharge.
>
> That's he exact opposite of my understanding.

You understand how a fridge stops food decaying, yes? Same principle
applies to the chemical reaction that causes a battery voltage to decay.

[Andy B]

Jeweller <dgho...@GEEmail.com> wrote:

> On 09/11/2012 17:23, havo...@googlemail.com wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > I work for ProBike Ltd,
>
> > best regards
> >
>
> And best regards to you at Probike.
> So it's not just my luck that my Optimate worked for me.
> Much obliged.

Don't worry, we've had 2 Optimates in our garage for years and never had
a problem but you wouldn't write to the Daily Mail about something that
worked would you?

[frag]

Krusty burbled...

>
> Dan L wrote:
>
> > Jeweller <dgho...@GEEmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 09/11/2012 17:23, havo...@googlemail.com wrote:
> > >> Gentlemen,
> > >>
> > >> I work for ProBike Ltd,
> > >
> > >> best regards
> > >>
> > >
> > > And best regards to you at Probike.
> > > So it's not just my luck that my Optimate worked for me.
> > > Much obliged.
> > >
> > My bikes have always been left plugged into an Optimate when in the
> > shed with no a apparent ill effects (to date).
>

> Thing in works fine 'til it stops working fine non-shocker.

Fixed that for you :)


--
frag

[frag]

boots burbled...

> I spent ages working on testing some telecoms equipment that did
> suffer badly with momentary drops. Long ones were ok, all the voltage
> rails collapsed and if there was no backup it died. Short ones would
> seen the (IIRC) -12v fail and a complete lockup needing a site visit
> to recover.
>
> Never did get it sorted despite SW changes and dicking around with
> different capacitors.

Crikey, a simple watchdog trigger that monitors all the voltage rails
would do it.

I suppose the fact that that is a hardware mod might be seen as
admitting there's a problem.

Depends how much it could be done for, and how much your time is worth!


--
frag

[frag]

Champ burbled...

>
> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 14:08:49 -0600, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
> >they are, the quicker they self-discharge.
>
> That's he exact opposite of my understanding.

He speaks the truth.

Note that self discharge is not the same thing as cold cranking amps,
the colder a battery is the CCAs are reduced a bit.


--
frag

[frag]

davethedave burbled...

LOL.

She's gone now anyway. You can tell by the dust all over the house :(


--
frag

[Champ]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:45:30 +0000 (UTC), wessie
<putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote:

>>>Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
>>>they are, the quicker they self-discharge.

>> That's he exact opposite of my understanding.

>You understand how a fridge stops food decaying, yes? Same principle
>applies to the chemical reaction that causes a battery voltage to decay.

That makes sense.

However, my experience of electronic devices (cameras, etc) is that
they run out of battery much faster in cold weather.

Also, vehicle batteries left in the cold seem to discharge quicker.

[Mark Olson]

On 11/10/2012 7:43 AM, Champ wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 21:45:30 +0000 (UTC), wessie
> <putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Batteries are best stored fully charged in a cold location. The warmer
>>>> they are, the quicker they self-discharge.
>
>>> That's he exact opposite of my understanding.
>
>> You understand how a fridge stops food decaying, yes? Same principle
>> applies to the chemical reaction that causes a battery voltage to decay.
>
> That makes sense.
>
> However, my experience of electronic devices (cameras, etc) is that
> they run out of battery much faster in cold weather.

Perfectly true, and in no way contradicts what I said.

> Also, vehicle batteries left in the cold seem to discharge quicker.

Not true, unless they are being drained by something.

What I said, is batteries self-discharge at a lower rate when they are
cold. Self-discharge is loss of charge with no load placed on the battery.
You're talking about batteries that are supplying current to something
external to them.

[wessie]

Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:obms98ld3re1qk97t0tdt3ltasarapqc9k@
4ax.com:

> However, my experience of electronic devices (cameras, etc) is that
> they run out of battery much faster in cold weather.
>

that's because the chemical reaction to supply a current is slower at cold
temperatures, so the battery appears to be discharged. If you warmed the
battery up a bit it would work more efficiently. Stick your camera inside
your jacket between uses when on the piste.

[Champ]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:28:04 +0000 (UTC), wessie
<putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote:

>Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:obms98ld3re1qk97t0tdt3ltasarapqc9k@
>4ax.com:
>
>> However, my experience of electronic devices (cameras, etc) is that
>> they run out of battery much faster in cold weather.

>that's because the chemical reaction to supply a current is slower at cold
>temperatures, so the battery appears to be discharged.

So the difference you and Mark appear to be directing me to is the
difference between a battery supplying some current and no current.

>If you warmed the
>battery up a bit it would work more efficiently. Stick your camera inside
>your jacket between uses when on the piste.

Yes, I'm well aware of that effect, which is why I raised it as an
example.

[davethedave]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 12:22:56 +0000, frag wrote:

>> > It might require > 2 weeks but when you have a bike laid up, and the
>> > battery is being maintained by the Optimate which the damn cleaner
>> > then unplugs to power her hoover and doesn't plug back in, well. Bye
>> > bye battery.
>>
>> There's a mod you can do to the cleaner. Adopt a stern tone of voice
>> and say "Touch it again and you're sacked!".
>
> LOL.
>
> She's gone now anyway. You can tell by the dust all over the house :(

You could get a new one.
http://www.nakedcleaners.co.uk/
--
davethedave

[wessie]

Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in
news:3b7t98p5sjc9uo0fb...@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:28:04 +0000 (UTC), wessie
> <putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>>Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in
>>news:obms98ld3re1qk97t0tdt3ltasarapqc9k@ 4ax.com:
>>
>>> However, my experience of electronic devices (cameras, etc) is that
>>> they run out of battery much faster in cold weather.
>
>>that's because the chemical reaction to supply a current is slower at
>>cold temperatures, so the battery appears to be discharged.
>
> So the difference you and Mark appear to be directing me to is the
> difference between a battery supplying some current and no current.
>

for a device to operate there has to be *enough* current - at lower
temperatures the battery will cease to supply enough current at a higher
voltage that at room temperature. Effectively, the lower temperture will
increase the internal resistance of the battery, reducing the overal
current flowing in the circuit.

If you want to think of it in terms of Ohms law then consider the
battery as a series resistor, where the resistance drops as temperature
rises.

[CT]

Ben wrote:

> I just put the bike in the garage in October and got it out in March.
> It's always worked.

Same here

--
Chris

[ogden]

CT wrote:
>
> Ben wrote:
>
> > I just put the bike in the garage and forget about it.
>
> Same here

Tada!

[havo...@googlemail.com]

> I don't suppose there's a mod one can do to the PCB in the charger to
>
> reduce the current drain? I know just sticking a diode in line won't do
>
> it as the Optimate will not know about the 0.7V drop across the diode.

A diode was fitted in circuit as part changes to the rev7 PCB in 2004. The charger could also be calibrated to accept the change. However it would not be a cost effective change.

In normal operation the small reverse current drain does not present a problem as this only occurs if there is a loss of mains power.

[Simon Wilson]

I suppose it depends on your definition of normal operation. To me, that
includes a car in a remote garage where the farmer sometimes unplugs
your battery charger without telling you, or the power trips out in a
*very* remote garage due to a storm and does not come back on on its
own, thus destroying several fairly expensive batteries.

--
/Simon

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:18:21 +0000, Simon Wilson
<siwi...@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote:

>I suppose it depends on your definition of normal operation. To me, that
>includes a car in a remote garage where the farmer sometimes unplugs
>your battery charger without telling you, or the power trips out in a
>*very* remote garage due to a storm and does not come back on on its
>own, thus destroying several fairly expensive batteries.

Exactly so. The whole point of unattended charging is that they be
safe to leave unattended. Not just safe electrically and from burning
the shed down, but safe in re-setting themselves after a power cut,
however caused.
My maintenance chargers don't re-set, so I have no expectations of
them doing so and anyway I check them all once a week or so, as micro
power cuts still happen here despite all the upgrading of power lines
over the past few years (although they're much less than before).

[degr...@gmail.com]

Ah - the 'disjoncteur' conundrum.

--

Pete Fisher via GG and Puppy Linux pending the arrival of a Dell service engineer

[Champ]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 20:36:19 +0200, davethedave
<davedfo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> There's a mod you can do to the cleaner. Adopt a stern tone of voice
>>> and say "Touch it again and you're sacked!".

>> She's gone now anyway. You can tell by the dust all over the house :(

>You could get a new one.
>http://www.nakedcleaners.co.uk/

Gosh, that's blast from the past!

[davethedave]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:37:54 +0000, Champ wrote:

>>>> There's a mod you can do to the cleaner. Adopt a stern tone of voice
>>>> and say "Touch it again and you're sacked!".
>
>>> She's gone now anyway. You can tell by the dust all over the house :(
>
>>You could get a new one. http://www.nakedcleaners.co.uk/
>
> Gosh, that's blast from the past!

I just checked. :) NONE of them are ginger.
--
davethedave

[frag]

davethedave burbled...

Whilst I agree all male gingers should be shot, a fit red headed women
is just... <goes for lie down>


--
frag

[Pip]

In article <MPG.2b11d06a6...@www.ukrm.co.uk>, frag says...

> Whilst I agree all male gingers should be shot

<takes note>

--

Pip: Keeper of the Cable Ties

[frag]

Pip burbled...

>
> In article <MPG.2b11d06a6...@www.ukrm.co.uk>, frag says...
>
> > Whilst I agree all male gingers should be shot
>
> <takes note>

Ah, well, in my defence male gingers do seem to fall into two groups.

The pale, nerdy ones, and the ones who just adopt what they're given,
add a goatee / beardee, a hat, decades of wrinkles and a healthy
attitude of 'life is good'.


<stops digging>


--
frag

[Paul Carmichael]

Krusty wrote:

> Jeweller wrote:
>
>> On 04/11/2012 19:46, Simon Wilson wrote:
>> > I've had a couple of bikes in a neighbour's for a few months with
>> > Optimates (early type model 2) connected to them. I collected them
>> > both today, neither of them start (barely turn over), despite the
>> > Optimate green light being on. Neither battery is very old.
>> >
>> > Which is the ctek charger of choice?
>> >
>> I've had my 'winter' bike constantly on charge with my optimate and
>> yesterday it started at the first attempt. What am I doing wrong?
>
> Lots of people including myself have done the same. Lots of people
> including myself have discovered that when the Optimate starts to fail,
> it kills batteries without you realising. So what you're doing wrong is
> assuming that your Optimate will continue to work perfectly forever; it
> probably won't, & it will probably kill at least one battery before you
> notice.
>

Now I'm wondering if that's what happened to my 2 y/o battery. It worked
fine a couple of weeks ago, but I put it on charge the other night for it's
ITV (MOT). Next morning it was dead.

--
Paul.
CBR1100XX SuperBlackbird (Buen mueble de patio), Orbea Dakar, Legs
BOTAFOT #4 BOTAFOF #30 MRO #24 OMF #15 UKRMMA #30
http://paulc.es/

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 14:25:58 +0100, Paul Carmichael
<wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Lots of people including myself have done the same. Lots of people
>> including myself have discovered that when the Optimate starts to fail,
>> it kills batteries without you realising. So what you're doing wrong is
>> assuming that your Optimate will continue to work perfectly forever; it
>> probably won't, & it will probably kill at least one battery before you
>> notice.
>>
>
>Now I'm wondering if that's what happened to my 2 y/o battery. It worked
>fine a couple of weeks ago, but I put it on charge the other night for it's
>ITV (MOT). Next morning it was dead.

Now I'm wondering if we're going to have another visit from the
Optimate Genie.

<rubs charger three times>

And poof!

[Paul Carmichael]

Heh. I've just ordered one of those other ones they're wibbling about. The
Optimate is well old, so GBP33 to replace it with something more modern
isn't too painful.

[Ace]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:49:21 -0000, frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:


>Whilst I agree all male gingers should be shot, a fit red headed women
>is just... <goes for lie down>

#Red hair and black leather, my favourite colour scheme...

[Simon Wilson]

On 09/11/2012 04:28, Simon Wilson wrote:
> On 04/11/2012 19:46, Simon Wilson wrote:
>> I've had a couple of bikes in a neighbour's for a few months with
>> Optimates (early type model 2) connected to them. I collected them both
>> today, neither of them start (barely turn over), despite the Optimate
>> green light being on. Neither battery is very old.
>>
>> Which is the ctek charger of choice?
>>
>

> The cteks have arrived and seem ok so far, but need a long term test.
> They claim to be fit and forget, no matter how long for, we shall see.
>

One (large) lead acid battery's been hooked up for over a week now, and
the 6th little light is on now, meaning it should be in maintenance
mode. This battery was already ok afaik.

The agm battery that the Optimate said was ok is still on 5 little
lights, so the ctek knows it's not quite right. I doubt it will start
the bike, another new battery required, I've already replaced (the now
completely dry) lead-acid one.

--
/Simon