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X800 sludge cleaner
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frag
Jan 16, 2013, 3:17:45 PM1/16/13
to
Put some in the central heating system on Saturday.
It's happily eating through all the crap in there.
By Monday the system was running that quietly I double checked that the
pump hadn't stopped.
By tonight the flow through the system is getting less and less, the
pump is still running so I'm guessing it's removing the calcium deposits
from the pump blades, with the slight problem that rust has removed the
blades themselves a few years back... so it's a coral pump :)
All in preparation for a new pump being installed this weekend.
--
frag
It's happily eating through all the crap in there.
By Monday the system was running that quietly I double checked that the
pump hadn't stopped.
By tonight the flow through the system is getting less and less, the
pump is still running so I'm guessing it's removing the calcium deposits
from the pump blades, with the slight problem that rust has removed the
blades themselves a few years back... so it's a coral pump :)
All in preparation for a new pump being installed this weekend.
--
frag
eatmorepies
Jan 16, 2013, 5:06:27 PM1/16/13
to
"frag" <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.2b611b43b...@www.ukrm.co.uk...
Sludge was thus diagnosed. I used Fernox F3 sludge cleaner - it only took 5
hours to get the system running properly. A day or two later the system was
drained and a lot of mucky water flowed out. Refilled with Fernox F1
protector added. As you say - the system runs much more quietly.
Thoroughly recommended. I bought mine on eBay - 1/3rd the price of plumb
centre.
John
Syd Rumpo
Jan 16, 2013, 6:46:51 PM1/16/13
to
--
Syd
frag
Jan 17, 2013, 3:45:57 PM1/17/13
to
eatmorepies burbled...
blocked completely, cured by a quick close & open of the regulator and
valve.
I forsee quite a few drain / fill cycles before all the dirt / calcium
deposits are flushed out. I'm thinking that if each time I drain the
system, I drain it from a different point (have about 5 I can choose
from) that should help in removing all the crap rather than relying on
the water flow to eventually move it to the one drain point.
I'm tempted to replace all the TRVs at the same time but will probably
wait until all the crud is out.
--
frag
>
> Some of my radiators wouldn't warm and a new pump didn't cure the
problem.
> Sludge was thus diagnosed. I used Fernox F3 sludge cleaner - it only took 5
> hours to get the system running properly. A day or two later the system was
> drained and a lot of mucky water flowed out. Refilled with Fernox F1
> protector added. As you say - the system runs much more quietly.
>
> Thoroughly recommended. I bought mine on eBay - 1/3rd the price of plumb
> centre.
It's definitely dislodged a lot of crap. Various radiators are being
> Some of my radiators wouldn't warm and a new pump didn't cure the
problem.
> Sludge was thus diagnosed. I used Fernox F3 sludge cleaner - it only took 5
> hours to get the system running properly. A day or two later the system was
> drained and a lot of mucky water flowed out. Refilled with Fernox F1
> protector added. As you say - the system runs much more quietly.
>
> Thoroughly recommended. I bought mine on eBay - 1/3rd the price of plumb
> centre.
blocked completely, cured by a quick close & open of the regulator and
valve.
I forsee quite a few drain / fill cycles before all the dirt / calcium
deposits are flushed out. I'm thinking that if each time I drain the
system, I drain it from a different point (have about 5 I can choose
from) that should help in removing all the crap rather than relying on
the water flow to eventually move it to the one drain point.
I'm tempted to replace all the TRVs at the same time but will probably
wait until all the crud is out.
--
frag
Dan L
Jan 18, 2013, 1:26:57 PM1/18/13
to
the garden with a hose. I did mine last year and got masses of black
crap out of them. I would also recommend fitting a Magnaflow into
the boiler return pipe, its a simple bit of kit which works really
well.
--
Nothing relevant
A.Lee
Jan 18, 2013, 2:44:28 PM1/18/13
to
Dan L <fa...@fakeemail.com> wrote:
> Might be worth taking each radiator off and flushing them through in
> the garden with a hose. I did mine last year and got masses of black
> crap out of them. I would also recommend fitting a Magnaflow into
> the boiler return pipe, its a simple bit of kit which works really
> well.
Magnaflow are getting a bit of a bad reputation now. We fitted them to
> Might be worth taking each radiator off and flushing them through in
> the garden with a hose. I did mine last year and got masses of black
> crap out of them. I would also recommend fitting a Magnaflow into
> the boiler return pipe, its a simple bit of kit which works really
> well.
every boiler we changed 2-3 years ago, 2 years on, they are nearly all
gone, as they start leaking.
The body, and the pipes are splitting/cracking, and from a google, it
appears there are many others having the same fault.
There are other similar devices with a better quality reputation.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
Dan L
Jan 18, 2013, 5:03:04 PM1/18/13
to
Fernox device - all brass and easier to drain / clean.
--
Nothing relevant
frag
Jan 20, 2013, 1:57:37 PM1/20/13
to
absolutely loads of black crap still stuck to the insides of everything and
only a little came out.
Is there anything stronger I can use, or will putting in 2 or 3 liters work
better?
I've discovered what has been blowing the fuses, the cylinder thermostat.
So that's one of those ordered.
I feel I'm going to have problems fitting it, when I tried to loosen off a
connection on the tank there was a definite "scrunch" sound of metal
telling me its very corroded and about to give way if I force it any more,
and I'm not going to have a choice, got to remove the old one to fit the
new one. New cylinder is about £350 ~ £450 (open vented, indirect heated,
combination cylinder)
And whoever put the original two way valve in, bolting the pipes to it and
then soldering the pipes in place, so there isn't enough slack to remove
the valve without cutting a couple of pipes, thanks mate. Idiot!
--
frag
frag
Jan 20, 2013, 1:58:47 PM1/20/13
to
first place :)
--
frag
A.Lee
Jan 20, 2013, 1:31:41 PM1/20/13
to
frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:
> I've replaced the pump and two way valve now, I'm disappointed in the X800,
> absolutely loads of black crap still stuck to the insides of everything and
> only a little came out.
>
> Is there anything stronger I can use, or will putting in 2 or 3 liters work
> better?
I leave it in for up to a month. You still get black gunge in the lowest
> I've replaced the pump and two way valve now, I'm disappointed in the X800,
> absolutely loads of black crap still stuck to the insides of everything and
> only a little came out.
>
> Is there anything stronger I can use, or will putting in 2 or 3 liters work
> better?
parts of the system. Repeated flushing helps, 3 or 4 times (flushing)
should get most of it out. Pretty simple to do really, will take a
Sunday morning, but once you have a good drain point, shouldnt be
difficult.
> I've discovered what has been blowing the fuses, the cylinder thermostat.
> So that's one of those ordered.
>
> I feel I'm going to have problems fitting it, when I tried to loosen off a
> connection on the tank there was a definite "scrunch" sound of metal
> telling me its very corroded
presuming you mean?
Loads of heat around the top where it screws in, maybe even try
penetrating oil for a week beforehand. Box spanner, rather than one of
the flat ones, and the tank has to be near enough full.
Even then, if it is corroded (your house is quite modern isnt it?) you
may not be able to get it out without ripping the copper walls. They are
thinner than you think.
Now, why would you want to replace it? Is the heating coil of the
immersion gone, or the immersion thermostat? Again, presumably it is the
element, as you are trying to get it out.
I wouldnt be too bothered about getting it out.
Gas is cheaper than electric, so heating your hot water via the boiler
is cheaper, and can be quicker (28kW boiler vs 3kW element?). The
benefit of an immersion is hot water when your boiler is not working.
How often does that happen? Once every 8 years or so in my experience.
Anyway, if you need any pointers, just follow up.
Oh, have you ordered the immersion? I've got one here you can have.
Grimly Curmudgeon
Jan 21, 2013, 5:25:30 AM1/21/13
to
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:57:37 +0000 (UTC), frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk>
wrote:
>I feel I'm going to have problems fitting it, when I tried to loosen off a
>connection on the tank there was a definite "scrunch" sound of metal
>telling me its very corroded and about to give way if I force it any more,
>and I'm not going to have a choice, got to remove the old one to fit the
>new one.
Fit an external tank stat, if it's suitable
wrote:
>I feel I'm going to have problems fitting it, when I tried to loosen off a
>connection on the tank there was a definite "scrunch" sound of metal
>telling me its very corroded and about to give way if I force it any more,
>and I'm not going to have a choice, got to remove the old one to fit the
>new one.
frag
Jan 21, 2013, 2:36:51 PM1/21/13
to
A.Lee burbled...
it was black.
Tissue paper, wipe around, came out black.
Repeat. Ditto. Repeat. Ditto. Repeat x 4. Ditto.
7 times and still coming out black, and no sign of the inside of the
pipe getting clean.
It's not thick, but very fine and a lot of it. Looks like black laser
printer toner that's gotten wet, coated the copper and been baked on
over 10 years.
Rinsing it without agitation will do bugger all. Obviously rinsing it
with X800 has done bugger all. Rinsing it with a good scrub brings it
right off, but is obviously impossible to do right through the system!
> > I've discovered what has been blowing the fuses, the cylinder
thermostat.
> > So that's one of those ordered.
> >
> > I feel I'm going to have problems fitting it, when I tried to loosen off a
> > connection on the tank there was a definite "scrunch" sound of metal
> > telling me its very corroded
>
> Do you mean the cylinder thermostat, or the immersion heater, which I am
> presuming you mean?
Cylinder thermostat.
Honeywell L6188A2002 (but with a hidden knob)
The thermocouple is on the end of a 10cm long probe, inserted though a
well in the side of the tank.
There is a grub screw in the well and I'm hoping that the stat just
slides through the well with a rubber ring sealing it, secured by the
grub screw. If that's the case it can be changed easily.
If not, and it doesn't want to come out, as Hog suggests, replacing it
with a simple contact stat will be the way to go.
> Loads of heat around the top where it screws in, maybe even try
> penetrating oil for a week beforehand. Box spanner, rather than one of
> the flat ones, and the tank has to be near enough full.
Full? Err, won't everything get a tiny bit wet, if it's full and I undo
something which leaves a large feck off hole in the side of the tank?
> Even then, if it is corroded (your house is quite modern isnt it?) you
> may not be able to get it out without ripping the copper walls. They are
> thinner than you think.
House built in 1996, so 16 years old.
The whole system has had no maintenance since 2000 (bar a couple of
repairs) so the money I've saved on not having it serviced has more than
paid for this reconditioning, even if I do appear to be replacing most
of the system :)
There is no immersion heater at all, but that is something I want to fit
at some point.
The people who make the solar panel energy monitor will soon be
releasing a device that diverts all excess electricity being generated
during the day to an immersion heater, so free hot water.
The device isn't cheap (about £800 IIRC) but it will pay for itself in
roughly 5 years. (actually I'm hoping someone will reverse engineer the
RF protocol they use so that people can start to make all sorts of
things that interface with their system cheaply)
> Anyway, if you need any pointers, just follow up.
Thanks.
> Oh, have you ordered the immersion? I've got one here you can have.
Well I'll be fitting one at some point, so yes please. This tank takes
"sideways" immersion heaters, if that's the type you've got?
--
frag
>
> frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I've replaced the pump and two way valve now, I'm disappointed in the X800,
> > absolutely loads of black crap still stuck to the insides of everything and
> > only a little came out.
> >
> > Is there anything stronger I can use, or will putting in 2 or 3 liters work
> > better?
>
> I leave it in for up to a month. You still get black gunge in the lowest
> parts of the system.
Inspecting inside a 22mm pipe coming from the boiler to the 2 way valve
> frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I've replaced the pump and two way valve now, I'm disappointed in the X800,
> > absolutely loads of black crap still stuck to the insides of everything and
> > only a little came out.
> >
> > Is there anything stronger I can use, or will putting in 2 or 3 liters work
> > better?
>
> I leave it in for up to a month. You still get black gunge in the lowest
> parts of the system.
it was black.
Tissue paper, wipe around, came out black.
Repeat. Ditto. Repeat. Ditto. Repeat x 4. Ditto.
7 times and still coming out black, and no sign of the inside of the
pipe getting clean.
It's not thick, but very fine and a lot of it. Looks like black laser
printer toner that's gotten wet, coated the copper and been baked on
over 10 years.
Rinsing it without agitation will do bugger all. Obviously rinsing it
with X800 has done bugger all. Rinsing it with a good scrub brings it
right off, but is obviously impossible to do right through the system!
> > I've discovered what has been blowing the fuses, the cylinder
thermostat.
> > So that's one of those ordered.
> >
> > I feel I'm going to have problems fitting it, when I tried to loosen off a
> > connection on the tank there was a definite "scrunch" sound of metal
> > telling me its very corroded
>
> Do you mean the cylinder thermostat, or the immersion heater, which I am
> presuming you mean?
Honeywell L6188A2002 (but with a hidden knob)
The thermocouple is on the end of a 10cm long probe, inserted though a
well in the side of the tank.
There is a grub screw in the well and I'm hoping that the stat just
slides through the well with a rubber ring sealing it, secured by the
grub screw. If that's the case it can be changed easily.
If not, and it doesn't want to come out, as Hog suggests, replacing it
with a simple contact stat will be the way to go.
> Loads of heat around the top where it screws in, maybe even try
> penetrating oil for a week beforehand. Box spanner, rather than one of
> the flat ones, and the tank has to be near enough full.
something which leaves a large feck off hole in the side of the tank?
> Even then, if it is corroded (your house is quite modern isnt it?) you
> may not be able to get it out without ripping the copper walls. They are
> thinner than you think.
The whole system has had no maintenance since 2000 (bar a couple of
repairs) so the money I've saved on not having it serviced has more than
paid for this reconditioning, even if I do appear to be replacing most
of the system :)
There is no immersion heater at all, but that is something I want to fit
at some point.
The people who make the solar panel energy monitor will soon be
releasing a device that diverts all excess electricity being generated
during the day to an immersion heater, so free hot water.
The device isn't cheap (about £800 IIRC) but it will pay for itself in
roughly 5 years. (actually I'm hoping someone will reverse engineer the
RF protocol they use so that people can start to make all sorts of
things that interface with their system cheaply)
> Anyway, if you need any pointers, just follow up.
> Oh, have you ordered the immersion? I've got one here you can have.
"sideways" immersion heaters, if that's the type you've got?
--
frag
A.Lee
Jan 21, 2013, 6:07:45 PM1/21/13
to
frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:
> A.Lee burbled...
> > Do you mean the cylinder thermostat, or the immersion heater, which I am
> > presuming you mean?
>
> Cylinder thermostat.
As has been said by Grimly, dont bother taking it out, just fit a new
one that clips to the surface with a bit of springy wire, same as used
for net curtains.
Get a Honeywell, they are the best, and connections should be the same.
> > Oh, have you ordered the immersion? I've got one here you can have.
>
> Well I'll be fitting one at some point, so yes please. This tank takes
> "sideways" immersion heaters, if that's the type you've got?
It'll probably be too long then, the one I have here is 20 inches or so
long, a top fitting one, so doubtful if any good for you.
> A.Lee burbled...
> > Do you mean the cylinder thermostat, or the immersion heater, which I am
> > presuming you mean?
>
> Cylinder thermostat.
one that clips to the surface with a bit of springy wire, same as used
for net curtains.
Get a Honeywell, they are the best, and connections should be the same.
> > Oh, have you ordered the immersion? I've got one here you can have.
>
> Well I'll be fitting one at some point, so yes please. This tank takes
> "sideways" immersion heaters, if that's the type you've got?
long, a top fitting one, so doubtful if any good for you.
Grimly Curmudgeon
Jan 22, 2013, 7:48:15 AM1/22/13
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:36:51 -0000, frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:
>Well I'll be fitting one at some point, so yes please. This tank takes
>"sideways" immersion heaters,
Hey, you've got eleven inches, big boy.
>Well I'll be fitting one at some point, so yes please. This tank takes
>"sideways" immersion heaters,
frag
Jan 22, 2013, 4:35:16 PM1/22/13
to
A.Lee burbled...
> > > Oh, have you ordered the immersion? I've got one here you can
have.
> >
> > Well I'll be fitting one at some point, so yes please. This tank takes
> > "sideways" immersion heaters, if that's the type you've got?
>
> It'll probably be too long then, the one I have here is 20 inches or so
> long, a top fitting one, so doubtful if any good for you.
True.
This 'ere hot water with combined expansion tank and inverted coil/tank
gubbins, I'm assuming that it'd be fairly trivial to take that out and
fit a normal hot water cylinder and a separate expansion tank?
Whilst taking into account the risks of air locks and noisy plumbing of
course. (which I haven't Googled into yet)
(And probably also thinking of planning for a sealed system for when the
boiler gets replaced, if possible)
The quantity of hot watet that this system can deliver always has been
shite.
2/3rds of a decent bath and it's running cold. And it's in a 4 bed
house, god knows how I'd cope if there was a SWMBO and 2.4 kids living
here.
--
frag
>
> frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > A.Lee burbled...
>
> > > Do you mean the cylinder thermostat, or the immersion heater, which I am
> > > presuming you mean?
> >
> > Cylinder thermostat.
>
> As has been said by Grimly, dont bother taking it out, just fit a new
> one that clips to the surface with a bit of springy wire, same as used
> for net curtains.
> Get a Honeywell, they are the best, and connections should be the same.
Picked one up in Wickes for £15.
> frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > A.Lee burbled...
>
> > > Do you mean the cylinder thermostat, or the immersion heater, which I am
> > > presuming you mean?
> >
> > Cylinder thermostat.
>
> As has been said by Grimly, dont bother taking it out, just fit a new
> one that clips to the surface with a bit of springy wire, same as used
> for net curtains.
> Get a Honeywell, they are the best, and connections should be the same.
> > > Oh, have you ordered the immersion? I've got one here you can
have.
> >
> > Well I'll be fitting one at some point, so yes please. This tank takes
> > "sideways" immersion heaters, if that's the type you've got?
>
> It'll probably be too long then, the one I have here is 20 inches or so
> long, a top fitting one, so doubtful if any good for you.
This 'ere hot water with combined expansion tank and inverted coil/tank
gubbins, I'm assuming that it'd be fairly trivial to take that out and
fit a normal hot water cylinder and a separate expansion tank?
Whilst taking into account the risks of air locks and noisy plumbing of
course. (which I haven't Googled into yet)
(And probably also thinking of planning for a sealed system for when the
boiler gets replaced, if possible)
The quantity of hot watet that this system can deliver always has been
shite.
2/3rds of a decent bath and it's running cold. And it's in a 4 bed
house, god knows how I'd cope if there was a SWMBO and 2.4 kids living
here.
--
frag
frag
Jan 22, 2013, 4:35:36 PM1/22/13
to
Grimly Curmudgeon burbled...
And that's from the ground!
--
frag
--
frag
Pip
Jan 22, 2013, 5:17:09 PM1/22/13
to
In article <MPG.2b6916872...@www.ukrm.co.uk>, frag says...
> And that's from the ground, when kneeling!
Figgers.
--
Pip: Keeper of the Cable Ties
Figgers.
--
Pip: Keeper of the Cable Ties
frag
Jan 23, 2013, 3:45:22 PM1/23/13
to
Pip burbled...
<Aghast>
The old ginger man, reduced to post editing!
We had fig biscuits at work a couple of days ago. First time in 3 years.
How did you know?
--
frag
The old ginger man, reduced to post editing!
We had fig biscuits at work a couple of days ago. First time in 3 years.
How did you know?
--
frag
frag
Feb 3, 2013, 6:36:17 AM2/3/13
to
<cleaning sludge & limescale out of central heating system>
So, third time lucky?
X800 in for a week, water flushed out contained some blackness, not
much.
Two loads of Wickes own cleaner left in for two weeks, flushed it out
yesterday and ditto. Not much crap came out at all.
So, I've chucked some DS-40 in there.
Fork me, the system sounds like an old knackered steam boiler!
I know DS40 is a real acidic cleaner, and will produce little bits of
vapour as it eats the limescale, and from the noises it's definitely
working. The systems burping like a coke + menthos drinking Mythbuster.
Bleeding the rads twice a day, plus a few times a day manually playing
with the three way valve to help it clear out the vapour.
*burp*
I know that that stuff changes to green when it's used up or
neutralised, and I think it's already gone green after 12 hours.
At ￜ40 a pop, I'm hoping it won't need more than three lots to get it
reasonably clean :-S
One thing I did spot was a drain plug at the bottom of the heat
exchanger, so with the system drained I pulled that off, had a bit of a
flush, and then had a poke around inside with a screwdriver. Could only
reach a tiny part, but there's loads of gunk / crunchy stuff in there. I
kind of doubt any cleaner is going to remove it really, but I did spot
that there is a large plate bolted onto the side of the heat exchanger,
so, if I can get the damn thing out, it looks like I can pull the side
off it and properly clean it out.
--
frag
So, third time lucky?
X800 in for a week, water flushed out contained some blackness, not
much.
Two loads of Wickes own cleaner left in for two weeks, flushed it out
yesterday and ditto. Not much crap came out at all.
So, I've chucked some DS-40 in there.
Fork me, the system sounds like an old knackered steam boiler!
I know DS40 is a real acidic cleaner, and will produce little bits of
vapour as it eats the limescale, and from the noises it's definitely
working. The systems burping like a coke + menthos drinking Mythbuster.
Bleeding the rads twice a day, plus a few times a day manually playing
with the three way valve to help it clear out the vapour.
*burp*
I know that that stuff changes to green when it's used up or
neutralised, and I think it's already gone green after 12 hours.
At ￜ40 a pop, I'm hoping it won't need more than three lots to get it
reasonably clean :-S
One thing I did spot was a drain plug at the bottom of the heat
exchanger, so with the system drained I pulled that off, had a bit of a
flush, and then had a poke around inside with a screwdriver. Could only
reach a tiny part, but there's loads of gunk / crunchy stuff in there. I
kind of doubt any cleaner is going to remove it really, but I did spot
that there is a large plate bolted onto the side of the heat exchanger,
so, if I can get the damn thing out, it looks like I can pull the side
off it and properly clean it out.
--
frag
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