OT: Cheap PC game
Bear
are doing a classic flight sim for £2.98 ATM.
"B17 - Flying Fortress - The Mighty 8th" is, as you might expect, a
fairly in-depth simulation of a WWII B17, operating from the UK to bomb
targets in France and Germany.
It's a bit old now (about 5 or 6 years, if memory serves), but it's
still amazingly playable; basically you can do as much or as little as
you want to, so you can take over the position of any of the 10 man crew
at any point, and swap at will. If you don't actually enjoy the flying
you can stick to bombing, or manning a .50 machine gun to fend off
ME109s, and can even jump into the cockpit of said Allied or German
planes if you fancy finding out just how tough it is to shoot down a
single plane within a formation of B17s. Or if you want the full flight
sim thing you can fly the plane too, right down to the rather long-
winded technique for firing up all 4 engines in sequence. If you'd
rather not, you can just skip all that stuff.
The attention to detail is excellent, even the menus have an "old" feel
to them, with little toggle switches. The graphics are a bit dated by
today's standards, but as a result it runs very smoothly on anything
this side of a biscuit tin, and it's got a really nice period feel to
it; there's a good interpretation of a precision bomb sight (not as easy
to use as you might think), and even the chance to get a crew member to
put out a fire on board, or render first aid to a colleague wounded by
flak.
Anyone who enjoyed the film "Memphis Belle" would probably find this
game interesting, and it once again brings home just how brave those
airmen were; I'm halfway through a 25 mission tour ATM (having had to
reload 4 times due to being shot down [1]) and apparently your chances
of making through just the first half of your tour (14 missions) was
only about 50/50, at best.
Anyway, I thought some of the plane nuts might enjoy it, and at £3 you
can't go wrong.
[1] it's highly amusing when you're lining up a German ball bearing
factory through a Norden sight, peering through low cloud, and suddenly
the thing goes haywire ... you switch to an external view to find out
what's gone wrong, to find a German fighter aircraft has rammed you by
mistake, and one wing is missing, so you're once again going from 15,000
to 0 feet in free fall
--
Bear
BMW 740iL - Stately Progress For The Mature Gentleman
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bear <bastard...@gmail.com>
saying something like:
>[1] it's highly amusing when you're lining up a German ball bearing
>factory through a Norden sight, peering through low cloud, and suddenly
>the thing goes haywire ... you switch to an external view to find out
>what's gone wrong, to find a German fighter aircraft has rammed you by
>mistake, and one wing is missing, so you're once again going from 15,000
>to 0 feet in free fall
What will always stick in my mind is the piece of newsreel taken on a
bombing run over Germany or the Pacific (I've seen the same piece used
in programmes about both, but probably Germany) where a B29 immediately
off to the right of the camera plane is hit by a bomb falling from one
above and ahead of it. It didn't explode, just broke the port wing off
in a cloud of vapourised fuel, and the whole plot just sunk down off the
frame of view.
I wonder just what the formation rules were. Box formation, yes, but
what kind of clearances were they supposed to maintain, and how close to
disaster did the unlucky buggers at the bottom come as a matter of
routine?
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
Every post contains Nutri-Ceramide-R and Pre-Biotics
for your reading pleasure.
Folding@Home Team UKRM
http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=47957
Bear
> I wonder just what the formation rules were. Box formation, yes, but
> what kind of clearances were they supposed to maintain
Judging by some of the early colour footage that's used in "Memphis
Belle", I'd say "not fucking much" was a reasonable guide, although I
think they've overlaid a number of planes to form a formation for the
film.
> , and how close to
> disaster did the unlucky buggers at the bottom come as a matter of
> routine?
Risk-wise, it's a bit of everything. The thing that stuck with me as
well was the attack profile of the German fighters; I read a book that
featured diary entries by one of their aces (can't recall his name ATM;
might have been Meyer), and basically the "best" way to attack a B17
formation appears to have been head-on.
So you're doing 300-350 mph in a Me109 or Fw190, head-on against a B17
doing 150-170 mph. You have to maintain that line, dodge machine gun
fire, aim, judge precisely when to start firing (too soon and you're out
of ammo before you know it, too late and you're smeared), fire, then
peel off at precisely the right moment. The chap recounted an occasion
when he'd failed to peel off early enough, and realised the only way he
could possibly live was to "crash" /through/ a B17 "box", flat-out. IIRC
he says something like; "this technique would be an efficient method of
engagement if only we could perfect it, however I would estimate the
wing-to-wing clearances to be less than 5 metres at 500 kph, and it is
thus not a maneuver I would wish to repeat". No shit, Sherlock.
Plus of course it's a different sort of flying; no pressurised cabins,
so you get pressure issues (IIRC crew members regularly got the bends or
similar), slow rate oxygen masks (so you feel sick as fuck after a
while, or pass out if the supply fails or the tubes get blocked by
either frozen saliva or if the rubber perishes), and the whole plot
feels as if it's been hammered together in someone's back yard which,
frankly, it has.
Brave chaps. I haven't reached the end of the game yet, but IIRC your
chances of surviving a full tour of 25 missions (from what I've read
before) was about 20%; and I mean a 20% survival rate, not a 20%
fatality rate.
ChrisDC
>What will always stick in my mind is the piece of newsreel taken on a
>bombing run over Germany or the Pacific (I've seen the same piece used
>in programmes about both, but probably Germany) where a B29 immediately
>off to the right of the camera plane is hit by a bomb falling from one
>above and ahead of it. It didn't explode, just broke the port wing off
>in a cloud of vapourised fuel, and the whole plot just sunk down off the
>frame of view.
Friendly fire.
Yet again.
Merkins!
--
Chris
VN1500-j1 (Gertrude) Twice the fun at half the speed.
chris.desclayes at ffcc dot powernet dot co dot uk
But minus one "f"
SD
<grimlycurmud...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What will always stick in my mind is the piece of newsreel taken on a
>bombing run over Germany or the Pacific (I've seen the same piece used
>in programmes about both, but probably Germany) where a B29 immediately
Not Germany if it was a B29.
I think I've seen the same clip - B17, almost certainly.
<fishes out World at War DVD>
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\|^|/ ANORAK#17 IbB#4 YTC#4 two#11
'^' RBR'06 Points: 75 Miles: 317
Bear
> On Fri, 05 May 2006 22:02:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
> <grimlycurmud...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >What will always stick in my mind is the piece of newsreel taken on a
> >bombing run over Germany or the Pacific (I've seen the same piece used
> >in programmes about both, but probably Germany) where a B29 immediately
>
> Not Germany if it was a B29.
Indeedy.
I can't recall where I read it, but didn't the B29 have the first true
real-time weapons avionics? Ie a hardware/firmware device that worked
out the lead/lag for the gunner? So the gunner aims directly at the
incoming, attacking plane and fires, and the gizmo (presumably some
valves/early transistors?) works out the lead/lag and fires accordingly?
platypus
>
> Risk-wise, it's a bit of everything. The thing that stuck with me as
> well was the attack profile of the German fighters; I read a book that
> featured diary entries by one of their aces (can't recall his name
> ATM; might have been Meyer), and basically the "best" way to attack a
> B17 formation appears to have been head-on.
>
> So you're doing 300-350 mph in a Me109 or Fw190, head-on against a B17
> doing 150-170 mph. You have to maintain that line, dodge machine gun
> fire, aim, judge precisely when to start firing (too soon and you're
> out of ammo before you know it, too late and you're smeared), fire,
> then peel off at precisely the right moment. The chap recounted an
> occasion when he'd failed to peel off early enough, and realised the
> only way he could possibly live was to "crash" /through/ a B17 "box",
> flat-out. IIRC he says something like; "this technique would be an
> efficient method of engagement if only we could perfect it, however I
> would estimate the wing-to-wing clearances to be less than 5 metres
> at 500 kph, and it is thus not a maneuver I would wish to repeat". No
> shit, Sherlock.
What they used to do was attack inverted. That way, at the end of their
run, they would simply haul back on the stick and dive away. No neg G, no
risk of stalling, no trying to climb out in full view of the gun turrets.
--
platypus
we can do all the bad things
Bryan
"Bear" <bastard...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ec5a4783...@news.individual.de...
I don't know if this is nationwide, or just at my local, but PC World
are doing a classic flight sim for £2.98 ATM.
"B17 - Flying Fortress - The Mighty 8th" is, as you might expect, a
fairly in-depth simulation of a WWII B17, operating from the UK to bomb
targets in France and Germany.
I'll need to find this in the States.
My dad flew B-17s out of East Anglica (Thorppe-Abbots to be precise) during
the big one.
He flew 30 combat missions for the Bloody 100th. We went back to his old
airfield about 4 years ago. The local citizens have done a good job of
setting up a museum in the old control tower and one of the remaining
buildings. They have a working 1930s flight simulator that they restored.
They picked us up a the train station in Diss and treated us like royality,
one of the best trips of my life.
If you get the chance make it a point to visit.
Bryan
Bear
> Bear wrote:
> > So you're doing 300-350 mph in a Me109 or Fw190, head-on against a B17
> > doing 150-170 mph. You have to maintain that line, dodge machine gun
> > fire, aim, judge precisely when to start firing (too soon and you're
> > out of ammo before you know it, too late and you're smeared), fire,
> > then peel off at precisely the right moment. The chap recounted an
> > occasion when he'd failed to peel off early enough, and realised the
> > only way he could possibly live was to "crash" /through/ a B17 "box",
> > flat-out. IIRC he says something like; "this technique would be an
> > efficient method of engagement if only we could perfect it, however I
> > would estimate the wing-to-wing clearances to be less than 5 metres
> > at 500 kph, and it is thus not a maneuver I would wish to repeat". No
> > shit, Sherlock.
>
> What they used to do was attack inverted. That way, at the end of their
> run, they would simply haul back on the stick and dive away. No neg G, no
> risk of stalling, no trying to climb out in full view of the gun turrets.
Yeah I remember reading that; doesn't mention how they avoided the lower
ball turret on a B17, mind. Pure speed?
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bear <bastard...@gmail.com>
saying something like:
>Brave chaps. I haven't reached the end of the game yet, but IIRC your
>chances of surviving a full tour of 25 missions (from what I've read
>before) was about 20%; and I mean a 20% survival rate, not a 20%
>fatality rate.
Daylight bombing by the Yanks was suicidal, the blokes in charge of the
whole thing reckoning that mass would prevail...
On a related note, I've heard that the suicide and crack up rate among
ex-RAF bomber crews during and post-war was immense. In those days of
course there was no such thing as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, it was
categorised as Lack of Moral Fibre and get this - non pensionable. How
lucky we were to have such an understanding and compassionate bunch of
cunts in charge.
Wicked Uncle Nigel
<salad....@dsl.pipex.com> typed
>On Fri, 05 May 2006 22:02:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
><grimlycurmud...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>What will always stick in my mind is the piece of newsreel taken on a
>>bombing run over Germany or the Pacific (I've seen the same piece used
>>in programmes about both, but probably Germany) where a B29 immediately
>
>Not Germany if it was a B29.
>
>I think I've seen the same clip - B17, almost certainly.
I'm pretty sure it was a B24.
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - Podium Placed Ducati Race Engineer
WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha GTS1000
Grimly Curmudgeon
saying something like:
>>What will always stick in my mind is the piece of newsreel taken on a
>>bombing run over Germany or the Pacific (I've seen the same piece used
>>in programmes about both, but probably Germany) where a B29 immediately
>
>Not Germany if it was a B29.
Ah, true. It was silver, not camo or any other colour de jour, which
made me think B29.
>I think I've seen the same clip - B17, almost certainly.
>
><fishes out World at War DVD>
It was deffo on that. Somewhere in the last third episodes.
Bear
> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember Bear <bastard...@gmail.com>
> saying something like:
>
> >Brave chaps. I haven't reached the end of the game yet, but IIRC your
> >chances of surviving a full tour of 25 missions (from what I've read
> >before) was about 20%; and I mean a 20% survival rate, not a 20%
> >fatality rate.
>
> Daylight bombing by the Yanks was suicidal, the blokes in charge of the
> whole thing reckoning that mass would prevail...
They maintained that line right up til the Schweinfurt ball-bearing
factory [1] raids; after some 65-70 planes were lost (at 10 men crew per
plane the casualties really stack up) it was decided not to exceed the
flight time of escort fighters by more than half an hour, as opposed to
the 3-4 hour bomber overflight at Schweinfurt.
IIRC one bomber group commander tried it on another occasion and lost
80% of his unit, and was then quietly shuttled back to the USA.
> On a related note, I've heard that the suicide and crack up rate among
> ex-RAF bomber crews during and post-war was immense. In those days of
> course there was no such thing as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, it was
> categorised as Lack of Moral Fibre and get this - non pensionable. How
> lucky we were to have such an understanding and compassionate bunch of
> cunts in charge.
Indeed so, and another untold story is that of drug addiction; the
aircrew were issued with mental-strength amphetamines (IIRC that's where
"brown bombers" comes from), which had a disastrous effect on both their
physical and mental health. Afterwards they were left to pretty much
deal with it themselves.
[1] amazing target; you think "why ball bearings?", but they're one of
the most common components in machinery of war on land, sea and air, and
apparently you can't make them (or couldn't then) without the giant
towers necessary to allow the molten metal to form spheres and cool
slightly in-flight
SD
<grimlycurmud...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>drugs began to take hold. I remember SD <salad....@dsl.pipex.com>
>saying something like:
>
>>>What will always stick in my mind is the piece of newsreel taken on a
>>>bombing run over Germany or the Pacific (I've seen the same piece used
>>>in programmes about both, but probably Germany) where a B29 immediately
>>
>>Not Germany if it was a B29.
>
>Ah, true. It was silver, not camo or any other colour de jour, which
>made me think B29.
>
>>I think I've seen the same clip - B17, almost certainly.
>>
>><fishes out World at War DVD>
>
>It was deffo on that. Somewhere in the last third episodes.
Watching(and ripping) now, sah!
platypus
>
> [1] amazing target; you think "why ball bearings?", but they're one of
> the most common components in machinery of war on land, sea and air,
> and apparently you can't make them (or couldn't then) without the
> giant towers necessary to allow the molten metal to form spheres and
> cool slightly in-flight
Like the Shot Tower in Bristol:
http://www.ukattraction.com/west-country/lead-shot-tower.htm
Bear
"When his tower was demolished for road widening in 1968, it was
replaced by this 140-foot tall reinforced concrete landmark"
How fucked up is *that*?
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bear <bastard...@gmail.com>
saying something like:
>[1] amazing target; you think "why ball bearings?", but they're one of
>the most common components in machinery of war on land, sea and air, and
>apparently you can't make them (or couldn't then) without the giant
>towers necessary to allow the molten metal to form spheres and cool
>slightly in-flight
These days the rough blanks are chopped from round steel bar and ground
in a series of machines. Take some rough pebbles and rub them between
your palms to get the idea.
Pip Luscher
wrote:
>On Fri, 05 May 2006 22:51:51 GMT, platypus said ...
>> What they used to do was attack inverted. That way, at the end of their
>> run, they would simply haul back on the stick and dive away. No neg G, no
>> risk of stalling, no trying to climb out in full view of the gun turrets.
>
>Yeah I remember reading that; doesn't mention how they avoided the lower
>ball turret on a B17, mind. Pure speed?
That'd be my guess. Coming from a frontal attack, by the time
Billy-Ball Turret realises he's there and tries to swing his guns to
bear, Fritz has already pissed off out of range.
--
-Pip
Bear
There's a lovely line in Memphis Belle where a German fighter comes this
>< close on a high-speed attack, passing underneath. There's a brief
pause as everyone thinks "fucking hell", then the ball turret man's weak
voice chimes in "I swear that guy had blue eyes" :)
The Older Gentleman
> [1] amazing target; you think "why ball bearings?", but they're one of
> the most common components in machinery of war on land, sea and air, and
> apparently you can't make them (or couldn't then) without the giant
> towers necessary to allow the molten metal to form spheres and cool
> slightly in-flight
Albert Speer refers to the 'ball bearing' raids in Inside The Third
Reich.
He said it was a real worry, because the Yanks had indeed pinpointed a
crucial industrial node. However, there were *lots* of ball bearings
still in the distribution chain, and the Germans substituted "slide
bearings" where possible (I assume this means plain bearings). So there
was no hold-up in production of weapons.
The real clincher was the Allied attitude (prevalent in the RAF and USAF
and, for that matter, the Luiftwaffe in the early years) that once a
target was destroyed, or very badly damaged, you just moved onto the
next one.
In practice, people got even very badly bombed plants working again in a
very short time. The message was clear: you attack a target again and
again and again until it's *totally* wiped out, but for some reason this
message never sunk in.
Classic example - the Dambuster raid. The dams were breached, and then
the Allies calmly let the Germans repair them and never launched another
raid, not even to interrupt the rebuilding work, which would have been
very easy.
The Yanks did try repeat attacks on Schweinfurt, but the loss rate was
indeed unsustainable.
--
Trophy 1200 750SS CB400F CD250 Morini 500 Sport
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
The Older Gentleman
> I can't recall where I read it, but didn't the B29 have the first true
> real-time weapons avionics? Ie a hardware/firmware device that worked
> out the lead/lag for the gunner? So the gunner aims directly at the
> incoming, attacking plane and fires, and the gizmo (presumably some
> valves/early transistors?) works out the lead/lag and fires accordingly?
Yes, or something like it. The turrets themselves were unmanned, in the
sense they didn't have a bloke inside squiting down a gun barrel.
The B29 was one of those quantum leaps in weaponry - it ws incredibly
sophisticated. In its way, it was as much of an advance as the Me262 jet
fighter.
Little known fact: three (I think it was three) B29s had to make a
forced landing in Russia during WW2 and the Russians simply nicked the
planes, and reverse-engineered them into carbon copies. Tupolev did the
airframe work.
They were by no means as good as the genuine article, because Russia
simply didn't have the advanced factory processes necessary to *make*
all the stuff, but when they first showed their copies, the Yanks were
dumbfounded.
Pip Luscher
chateau.mur...@dsl.pipex.com (The Older Gentleman) wrote:
>Little known fact: three (I think it was three) B29s had to make a
>forced landing in Russia during WW2 and the Russians simply nicked the
>planes, and reverse-engineered them into carbon copies. Tupolev did the
>airframe work.
>
>They were by no means as good as the genuine article, because Russia
>simply didn't have the advanced factory processes necessary to *make*
>all the stuff, but when they first showed their copies, the Yanks were
>dumbfounded.
I've read a book by the test pilot Mikoyan, son of Mikoyan the
designer, and he mentions a number of times that the Russians/Soviets
copied Western designs.
ISTR they copied a particular British gas turbine virtually exactly,
which caused a certain amount of irritation at RR.
They apparently preferred British designs over American ones at the
time, despite the slightly lower power outputs. Something to do with
either fuel efficiency or longevity, I forget which.
--
-Pip
Owen
wrote:
snip
>Brave chaps. I haven't reached the end of the game yet, but IIRC your
>chances of surviving a full tour of 25 missions (from what I've read
>before) was about 20%; and I mean a 20% survival rate, not a 20%
>fatality rate.
Read a book all about Bomber Harris recently (Harris?/Bomber Harris?)
it gave a lot of info on the various allied air forces survival rates,
tactics, and a fairly deep look at the man's carear and views...
--
O
Life... mostly works...
The Older Gentleman
> They apparently preferred British designs over American ones at the
> time, despite the slightly lower power outputs. Something to do with
> either fuel efficiency or longevity, I forget which.
Or because Brit designs could be knocked out by any Man In A Brown Coat.
Cab
> In practice, people got even very badly bombed plants working again
> in a very short time. The message was clear: you attack a target
> again and again and again until it's totally wiped out, but for some
> reason this message never sunk in.
They tried it on Malta and the Island didn't give up.
--
Cab :^) - argue's like a girl
GSX 1400
UKRMMA#10 (KOTL), IbW#015, BoB#4, POTM#3, SKA#1
email addy : ukrm_dot_cab_at_rosbif_dot_org
http://www.rosbif.org
Bear
> The Older Gentleman wrote:
>
> > In practice, people got even very badly bombed plants working again
> > in a very short time. The message was clear: you attack a target
> > again and again and again until it's totally wiped out, but for some
> > reason this message never sunk in.
>
> They tried it on Malta and the Island didn't give up.
Not /vast/ amounts of industry on Malta though, was there? [1]
I mean, rebuilding a mud hut and waiting for a couple of donkeys to grow
from seed isn't tricky, eh? ;)
[1] I honestly don't know
Lozzo
> The Older Gentleman wrote:
>
> > In practice, people got even very badly bombed plants working again
> > in a very short time. The message was clear: you attack a target
> > again and again and again until it's totally wiped out, but for some
> > reason this message never sunk in.
>
> They tried it on Malta and the Island didn't give up.
Hurrah for the Spics
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
GSF600SW
Lozzo
Docks with a huge dry dock[1]. Basically, at that time if you controlled
Malta, you controlled naval traffic through the Med.
[1] Which has snce been replaced with an even larger one.
Bear
Yes I knew that, but was it not a huge transit port, rather than the
departure point for local industry? If not, WTF did you spics make?
Lozzo
> On Sat, 6 May 2006 20:49:13 +0100, Lozzo said ...
> > Bear said...
> > > On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:33:30 +0200, Cab said ...
> > > > The Older Gentleman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In practice, people got even very badly bombed plants working again
> > > > > in a very short time. The message was clear: you attack a target
> > > > > again and again and again until it's totally wiped out, but for some
> > > > > reason this message never sunk in.
> > > >
> > > > They tried it on Malta and the Island didn't give up.
> > >
> > > Not /vast/ amounts of industry on Malta though, was there? [1]
> > >
> > > I mean, rebuilding a mud hut and waiting for a couple of donkeys to grow
> > > from seed isn't tricky, eh? ;)
> > >
> > > [1] I honestly don't know
> >
> > Docks with a huge dry dock[1]. Basically, at that time if you controlled
> > Malta, you controlled naval traffic through the Med.
> >
> > [1] Which has snce been replaced with an even larger one.
>
> Yes I knew that, but was it not a huge transit port, rather than the
> departure point for local industry?
There's never been much in the way of heavy industry there, partly due
to the fact they don't have much in the way of natural resources.
> If not, WTF did you spics make?
Lots of little half-British spics
muddy
Bear <bastard...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes I knew that, but was it not a huge transit port, rather than the
> departure point for local industry? If not, WTF did you spics make?
More Spics.
--
Mike
DL1000 Black with extra black bits. UKRMMA#22
Skype: mikebothe
It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
Pip Luscher
chateau.mur...@dsl.pipex.com (The Older Gentleman) wrote:
>Pip Luscher <pips.c...@spammers.foad.ntlworld.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> They apparently preferred British designs over American ones at the
>> time, despite the slightly lower power outputs. Something to do with
>> either fuel efficiency or longevity, I forget which.
>
>Or because Brit designs could be knocked out by any Man In A Brown Coat.
Surely not? :-)
--
-Pip
The Older Gentleman
During WW2, Malta's importance was as a submarine base, rather than
surface ships. Anything on the surface would have been sunk in minutes.
During the air raids, the subs would dive and sit on the bottom until
nightfall and then pop up for air.
So yes, Malta is a crucial halfway point along the Med, but in WW2 it
dominated the north-south traffic: specifically, shipping intended to
re-supply Rommel.
A fascinating sub-text emerged with the de-classification of the Ultra
intercepts (Enigma and all that). The intelligence was fed to Malta,
which sent out the subs (and aircraft, if available) and clobbered the
convoys. However, as time went on, and the British knew they were going
to win in North Africa in the end, convoys carrying food were allowed to
pass unmolested, while those carrying fuel and/or weapons were duly
sunk.
The Brits reasoned that all those soon-to-be-POW Germans would need
feeding pretty soon, so they might as well let the Germans send as much
stuff through as possible.
This is the sort of military double-think that I *love*.
The Older Gentleman
Bear
> Bear said...
> > Yes I knew that, but was it not a huge transit port, rather than the
> > departure point for local industry?
>
> There's never been much in the way of heavy industry there, partly due
> to the fact they don't have much in the way of natural resources.
Yes, that was what I figured, ta.
> > If not, WTF did you spics make?
>
> Lots of little half-British spics
My guess would have been "everyone else sick" ;)
Cab
> During WW2, Malta's importance was as a submarine base, rather than
> surface ships. Anything on the surface would have been sunk in
> minutes. During the air raids, the subs would dive and sit on the
> bottom until nightfall and then pop up for air.
True.
> So yes, Malta is a crucial halfway point along the Med, but in WW2 it
> dominated the north-south traffic: specifically, shipping intended to
> re-supply Rommel.
And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot longer in
Africa. QED.
It's all well and good that the Islanders decided to remain British
before the war, eh? Otherwise Rommel would have had a little Italian
base already set up for him.
The Older Gentleman
> The Older Gentleman wrote:
>
> > During WW2, Malta's importance was as a submarine base, rather than
> > surface ships. Anything on the surface would have been sunk in
> > minutes. During the air raids, the subs would dive and sit on the
> > bottom until nightfall and then pop up for air.
>
> True.
>
> > So yes, Malta is a crucial halfway point along the Med, but in WW2 it
> > dominated the north-south traffic: specifically, shipping intended to
> > re-supply Rommel.
>
> And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot longer in
> Africa. QED.
>
Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
> It's all well and good that the Islanders decided to remain British
> before the war, eh? Otherwise Rommel would have had a little Italian
> base already set up for him.
Indeed. Lucky old them.
Lozzo
> Cab <my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > The Older Gentleman wrote:
> >
> > > During WW2, Malta's importance was as a submarine base, rather than
> > > surface ships. Anything on the surface would have been sunk in
> > > minutes. During the air raids, the subs would dive and sit on the
> > > bottom until nightfall and then pop up for air.
> >
> > True.
> >
> > > So yes, Malta is a crucial halfway point along the Med, but in WW2 it
> > > dominated the north-south traffic: specifically, shipping intended to
> > > re-supply Rommel.
> >
> > And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot longer in
> > Africa. QED.
> >
> Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
And I'd be called a Wop. <shudder>
Bear
You say po-TAY-to ...
Lozzo
...and I say "fuck off" :-)
You look more Wop than I do.
Cab
> > They tried it on Malta and the Island didn't give up.
>
> Not vast amounts of industry on Malta though, was there? [1]
TOG's already filled you in on why, so I won't repeat it.
> I mean, rebuilding a mud hut and waiting for a couple of donkeys to
> grow from seed isn't tricky, eh? ;)
Those donkeys took a long time to grow. :-)
Bear
We're both way too ugly to pass for Italian.
Cab
<G> From photo's I've seen of you two, there's not much in it.
I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
Champ
<my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Lozzo wrote:
>
>> Bear said...
>> > On Sat, 6 May 2006 23:14:54 +0100, Lozzo said ...
>> > > The Older Gentleman said...
>> > > > Cab <my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot
>> > > > > longer in Africa. QED.
>> > > > >
>> > > > Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
>> > >
>> > > And I'd be called a Wop. <shudder>
>> >
>> > You say po-TAY-to ...
>>
>> ...and I say "fuck off" :-)
>>
>> You look more Wop than I do.
>
><G> From photo's I've seen of you two, there's not much in it.
>
>I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
True. You look like an ay-rab.
--
Champ
Lozzo
> Lozzo wrote:
>
> > Bear said...
> > > On Sat, 6 May 2006 23:14:54 +0100, Lozzo said ...
> > > > The Older Gentleman said...
> > > > > Cab <my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot
> > > > > > longer in Africa. QED.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
> > > >
> > > > And I'd be called a Wop. <shudder>
> > >
> > > You say po-TAY-to ...
> >
> > ...and I say "fuck off" :-)
> >
> > You look more Wop than I do.
>
> <G> From photo's I've seen of you two, there's not much in it.
>
> I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
You look decidedly French - when your photo comes up on my screen
there's a distinct smell of onions in the air.
Cab
> > And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot
> > longer in Africa. QED.
> >
> Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
That opens up a lot of "what if" stories that does.
Verdigris
<SNIP WWII>
> Docks with a huge dry dock[1]. Basically, at that time if you controlled
> Malta, you controlled naval traffic through the Med.
Malta has been strategically important for centuries. Back to the time of
the Crusades at the very least.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Tiger - A return to good sense.
Z1000 - Less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
-------------
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Cab
> > I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
>
> You look decidedly French - when your photo comes up on my screen
> there's a distinct smell of onions in the air.
I'm more worried that you actually have my photo and look at it.
Is this a regular thing? Are you sure you haven't filed my photo with
all your porn?
Cab
> > I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
>
> True. You look like an ay-rab.
<G> Shukran.
Paul Corfield
<my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Lozzo wrote:
>
>> > I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
>>
>> You look decidedly French - when your photo comes up on my screen
>> there's a distinct smell of onions in the air.
>
>I'm more worried that you actually have my photo and look at it.
>
>Is this a regular thing? Are you sure you haven't filed my photo with
>all your porn?
<ponders possibilities>
<speechless>
--
Paul C - "the big camp bastard" (tm d.a.r.s.y)
VFR800 | ZX6R | R1150GS
BOD#5, two#4, BOTAFOT#23, BOTAFOF#4, URMSBC#09, COFF#09
Admits to working for London Underground!
platypus
No, he says "Guappo". Or "Guten tag"...
--
platypus
we can do all the bad things
Lozzo
> Lozzo wrote:
>
> > > I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
> >
> > You look decidedly French - when your photo comes up on my screen
> > there's a distinct smell of onions in the air.
>
> I'm more worried that you actually have my photo and look at it.
>
> Is this a regular thing? Are you sure you haven't filed my photo with
> all your porn?
I don't keep porn, I don't keep photos of you either. it's on those rare
occasions when a link takes me to a photo that you might be in.
The Older Gentleman
> The Older Gentleman wrote:
>
> > > And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot
> > > longer in Africa. QED.
> > >
> > Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
>
> That opens up a lot of "what if" stories that does.
Which, neatly bringing us round full circle, is why the Germans (and
Italians) bombed the fuck out of it.
My godmother (only died 10 years ago) was a military nurse in one of
those underground hospitals, in the catacombs, and won a chestful of
medals for doing something or other.
She used to bring them out on Remembrance Day.
(The medals, the medals, you dirty-minded lot)
The Older Gentleman
> Cab said...
> > Lozzo wrote:
> >
> > I, OTOH, don't look very spiccish at all.
>
> You look decidedly French - when your photo comes up on my screen
> there's a distinct smell of onions in the air.
I get chicory with undertones of armpit.
The Older Gentleman
> TOG's already filled you in on why, so I won't repeat it.
Naughty man.
Lozzo
> Cab <my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > The Older Gentleman wrote:
> >
> > > > And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot
> > > > longer in Africa. QED.
> > > >
> > > Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
> >
> > That opens up a lot of "what if" stories that does.
>
> Which, neatly bringing us round full circle, is why the Germans (and
> Italians) bombed the fuck out of it.
Mainly Italians.
> My godmother (only died 10 years ago) was a military nurse in one of
> those underground hospitals, in the catacombs, and won a chestful of
> medals for doing something or other.
>
> She used to bring them out on Remembrance Day.
>
> (The medals, the medals, you dirty-minded lot)
Heh
Andy Bonwick
<my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
>The Older Gentleman wrote:
>
>> > And if Malta had fallen, then the war would have lasted a lot
>> > longer in Africa. QED.
>> >
>> Oh yes indeed. In fact, Britain might have lost the whole Med.
>
>That opens up a lot of "what if" stories that does.
The merkins might have had to come and save us earlier in the war....
SD
wrote:
>
>There's a lovely line in Memphis Belle where a German fighter comes this
>>< close on a high-speed attack, passing underneath. There's a brief
>pause as everyone thinks "fucking hell", then the ball turret man's weak
>voice chimes in "I swear that guy had blue eyes" :)
That "wing falling off" clip from World at War: I reckon it's a B17.
http://www.salad.dodger.dsl.pipex.com/B17bang.wmv
--
| ___ Salad Dodger
|/ \
_/_____\_ GL1500SEV/CBR1100XXX/CBX1000Z
|_\_____/_| ..79553../..21469.../..31308.
(>|_|_|<) TPPFATUICG#7 DIAABTCOD#9 WG*
|__|_|__| BOTAFOT #70 BOTAFOF #09 PM#5
\ |^| / IbW#0 & KotIbW# BotTOS#6 GP#4
\|^|/ ANORAK#17 IbB#4 YTC#4 two#11
'^' RBR'06 Points: 75 Miles: 317
Cab
> > > You look decidedly French - when your photo comes up on my screen
> > > there's a distinct smell of onions in the air.
> >
> > I'm more worried that you actually have my photo and look at it.
> >
> > Is this a regular thing? Are you sure you haven't filed my photo
> > with all your porn?
>
> I don't keep porn, I don't keep photos of you either. it's on those
> rare occasions when a link takes me to a photo that you might be in.
I'm reassured. I think. :-)
Cab
> > Is this a regular thing? Are you sure you haven't filed my photo
> > with all your porn?
>
> <ponders possibilities>
>
> <speechless>
<VBG>
Cab
Heh.
Cab
> Cab <my_email_addre...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > TOG's already filled you in on why, so I won't repeat it.
>
>
> Naughty man.
<G>
Cab
> On Sat, 06 May 2006 20:49:13 +0100, Lozzo wrote:
>
> <SNIP WWII>
> > Docks with a huge dry dock[1]. Basically, at that time if you
> > controlled Malta, you controlled naval traffic through the Med.
>
> Malta has been strategically important for centuries. Back to the
> time of the Crusades at the very least.
Even today, as it's quite centrally located for everything that passes
through the Med from the Straits of Gibraltar to the Suez Canal. IIRC,
this is, by far, the Islands biggest source of income.
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember SD <salad....@dsl.pipex.com>
saying something like:
>That "wing falling off" clip from World at War: I reckon it's a B17.
>
>http://www.salad.dodger.dsl.pipex.com/B17bang.wmv
No, not that one... This one was a distinctive clear daylight shot of
the plane to the right (taken from a waist-gunner's port, iwt) cruising
along then suddenly the wing root crumples as a bomb hits it.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
Every post contains Nutri-Ceramide-R and Pre-Biotics
for your reading pleasure.
Folding@Home Team UKRM
http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=47957
SD
<grimly...@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote:
>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>drugs began to take hold. I remember SD <salad....@dsl.pipex.com>
>saying something like:
>
>>That "wing falling off" clip from World at War: I reckon it's a B17.
>>
>>http://www.salad.dodger.dsl.pipex.com/B17bang.wmv
>
>No, not that one... This one was a distinctive clear daylight shot of
>the plane to the right (taken from a waist-gunner's port, iwt) cruising
>along then suddenly the wing root crumples as a bomb hits it.
What do mean "not that one"? Took me fucking hours, that did.
Could have at least said "that's the one", just to humour me.
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember SD <salad....@dsl.pipex.com>
saying something like:
>What do mean "not that one"? Took me fucking hours, that did.
Well, thanks for digging that one out anyway, it's pretty spectacular.
>Could have at least said "that's the one", just to humour me.
The nation is depending on you.
Dan White
message news:1hexpkc.1kawc5nwthq68N%chateau.mur...@dsl.pipex.com...
> Lozzo <lo...@speedyspic.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>
> A fascinating sub-text emerged with the de-classification of the Ultra
> intercepts (Enigma and all that). The intelligence was fed to Malta,
> which sent out the subs (and aircraft, if available) and clobbered the
> convoys. However, as time went on, and the British knew they were going
> to win in North Africa in the end, convoys carrying food were allowed to
> pass unmolested, while those carrying fuel and/or weapons were duly
> sunk.
>
> The Brits reasoned that all those soon-to-be-POW Germans would need
> feeding pretty soon, so they might as well let the Germans send as much
> stuff through as possible.
>
> This is the sort of military double-think that I *love*.
Have you ever read "Cryptonomicon"? If you can get past the very dry first
50 pages, there's some excellent examples of this:
1) The Germans have cracked our merchant shipping codes.
2) We know this because we have cracked their Naval Enigma codes.
3) How do we change codes without the Germans knowing that we know they have
cracked them?
Answer: Sabotage a mechant ship and stage a deliberate crash onto a beach in
occupied territory. Then do a bad job of destroying the code books, which
are left on board slightly singed. The next day, you change all your codes
because, "The Germans" captured our code book"...
--
Dan White
(d...@finex666.org.uk)
Perform an exorcism when replying.