FOAK: Reseting an Aprilia Pegaso Dash

[YTC#1]

A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much water
in it and died.

It got me home, but that was it.

So, I bought a 2nd hand dash (Strada) which at first worked allowing the
bike to run.

Then it decided to forget the keys[1]. If I reprogrammed it, it lost them
again in a day. Then it decided to sit and ask "Insert the I key", when
the I key was in.

Ignition would not fire.

I refiited the dash with water problem. It cycles the rev needle and
allows me to fire the ignition. No key issue. Then cuts out (the ECU is
not happy with the shortin the dash).

Conclusion. 2nd Hand Dash fubared.

Bit the bullet. Bought a new dash.

Fitted dash.

Guess what ?

It asks for the I key (in Italian) and does nothing.

Old dash still lets me fire the ignition.

Has *anyone* *any* idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????

(Yes I am asking Aprilia but that is like blood from a stone)

[1] Aprilia likes you to register the keys with the ECU, otherwise you
have to enter a 5 digit code every time you start up and ride with the
word "SERVICE" flashing at you.

--
Bruce Porter
XJR1300SP, XJ900F, Pegaso 650 Trail (x2) one red one grey
POTM#1(KoTL), WUSS#1 , YTC#1(bar), OSOS#2(KoTL) , DS#3 , IbW#18 ,Apostle#8
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://blog.maui.co.uk/index.php/ytc/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

[YTC#1]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:20:23 +0000, Krusty wrote:

> YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> Has anyone any idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????
>
> No, but http://www.motomatrix.co.uk/ probably will.

Lets see


2) You have a modern bike that's immobilised without coded keys !!!
Hmmm

That could be the category.

[wessie]

YTC#1 <bdp-s...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in
news:pan.2011.10.21....@ytc1.co.uk:

> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much
> water in it and died.
>
> It got me home, but that was it.
>
> So, I bought a 2nd hand dash (Strada) which at first worked allowing
> the bike to run.
>
> Then it decided to forget the keys[1]. If I reprogrammed it, it lost
> them again in a day. Then it decided to sit and ask "Insert the I
> key", when the I key was in.
>

How does the PCB "remember" the key codes?

If the codes are stored locally in the dash PCB then it must have some
sort of NVM but does this rely on a battery on the PCB, the bike battery
or is there some sort of FLASH device? Of course, the codes may be
stored in the main ECU.

If there is a battery on the dash PCB then change it. If the PCB needs
permaent power from the 12V bike battery (unlikely) check this gets to
the PCB whilst the ignition is off. Same with the ECU.

The other thing, if the system is not recognising the keys then you
could have a ring antanna problem. This is something owners of R1200GS
owners will be very familiar with. It's possible this was damaged in the
flood. The ring antenna sends out a pulse when you turn on the ignition
and waits for a response from a known key. With the R-GS the problem was
intermittent and a new one fixed the problem.

[R C Nesbit]

Ytc#1 spoke:

> Has *anyone* *any* idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????

<mode:predictable>

Buy a more pikey motorbike.

HTH

--
Rob_P
UKRM(at)indqualtec.co.uk
uppercase(d) BBIWYMC#1 BOG#11? MRO#31 IBCDBBB#1(kotl)
FJ1200, CCM130 Benelli Cabriolet (gone)
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake
that, you've got it made

[rick]

"wessie" <putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9F85AABC0...@88.198.244.100...

> How does the PCB "remember" the key codes?

Probably stored in non volatile eeprom.



--
Rick Brown
Sprint RS 955i

[Thomas]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 05:01:38 -0700, YTC#1 <bdp-s...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:

> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much
> water
> in it and died.

> ...

> Has *anyone* *any* idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????

A Honda.

[Mark Olson]

*HISS*

[wessie]

"rick" <rick...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in news:j7s6eu$5kr$1...@dont-email.me:

>
> "wessie" <putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9F85AABC0...@88.198.244.100...
>> How does the PCB "remember" the key codes?
>
> Probably stored in non volatile eeprom.
>
>
>

that's what AC Delboy used on the console units that X***x made for them.
Nastiest PCBs I ever worked on.

[TMack]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:01:38 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:

> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much
> water in it and died.
>
> It got me home, but that was it.
>

SNIP!

> Has *anyone* *any* idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????

An Aprilia Dealer?

--
Tony
'04 Ducati ST3, '08 DL650GT,
97 TW200, '87 semi-rat LS650, OMF#24

[YTC#1]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:01:38 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:

> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much water
> in it and died.
>
> It got me home, but that was it.
>
> So, I bought a 2nd hand dash (Strada) which at first worked allowing the
> bike to run.
>
> Then it decided to forget the keys[1]. If I reprogrammed it, it lost them
> again in a day. Then it decided to sit and ask "Insert the I key", when
> the I key was in.
>
> Ignition would not fire.
>
> I refiited the dash with water problem. It cycles the rev needle and
> allows me to fire the ignition. No key issue. Then cuts out (the ECU is
> not happy with the shortin the dash).
>
> Conclusion. 2nd Hand Dash fubared.
>
> Bit the bullet. Bought a new dash.
>
> Fitted dash.
>
> Guess what ?
>
> It asks for the I key (in Italian) and does nothing.
>
> Old dash still lets me fire the ignition.
>
> Has *anyone* *any* idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????
>
> (Yes I am asking Aprilia but that is like blood from a stone)
>
> [1] Aprilia likes you to register the keys with the ECU, otherwise you
> have to enter a 5 digit code every time you start up and ride with the
> word "SERVICE" flashing at you.

Bad form etc ....but

Doh!

I needed to switch the keys within 5 seconds. There was no propmt telling
me to, nor instructions to do so in the manual.

Nice chap from Rocket Centre in Blackburn suggested I speed up the key
change.

[YTC#1]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:41:11 +0000, TMack wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:01:38 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much
>> water in it and died.
>>
>> It got me home, but that was it.
>>
> SNIP!
>
>> Has *anyone* *any* idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????
>
> An Aprilia Dealer?

Them what never answer the phone ?

yes, eventually got an answer

[YTC#1]

What ? And be bored to death?

[rick]

"wessie" <putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote in message

news:Xns9F85B376D...@88.198.244.100...

>>> How does the PCB "remember" the key codes?
>>
>> Probably stored in non volatile eeprom.
>>
>>
>>
>
> that's what AC Delboy used on the console units that X***x made for them.
> Nastiest PCBs I ever worked on.

You never worked on any of my layouts then :p

[YTC#1]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:46:49 +0000, wessie wrote:

> YTC#1 <bdp-s...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in
> news:pan.2011.10.21....@ytc1.co.uk:
>
>> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much
>> water in it and died.
>>
>> It got me home, but that was it.
>>
>> So, I bought a 2nd hand dash (Strada) which at first worked allowing the
>> bike to run.
>>
>> Then it decided to forget the keys[1]. If I reprogrammed it, it lost
>> them again in a day. Then it decided to sit and ask "Insert the I key",
>> when the I key was in.
>>
>>
> How does the PCB "remember" the key codes?

magic ? :-)

>
> If the codes are stored locally in the dash PCB then it must have some
> sort of NVM but does this rely on a battery on the PCB, the bike battery
> or is there some sort of FLASH device? Of course, the codes may be stored
> in the main ECU.

I've had the old dash apart, no battery as far as I can see. But the final
bit that would not come away around the rev neeedle may have had one in
there.

>
> If there is a battery on the dash PCB then change it. If the PCB needs
> permaent power from the 12V bike battery (unlikely) check this gets to
> the PCB whilst the ignition is off. Same with the ECU.

I disconnected *everything* :-)


Sorted now anyway , thanks.

[wessie]

"rick" <rick...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
news:j7sbcf$9la$1...@dont-email.me:

it wasn't the layouts that was the problem but the actual media used in
the bare pcb. It had surface mount components on both sides and through
hole connectors. If the PCB survived going through the reflow oven and
flow solder tank then it would often vapourise if it needed some rework.
The topside pads were so thin that a soldering iron waved in their
general direction had amusing magic smoke consequences. We gave up
trying to replace the SMT ASIC as the PCB would go very brown before the
hot air thing had melted the solder.

[rick]

"wessie" <putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote in message

news:Xns9F85C19B9...@88.198.244.100...

> it wasn't the layouts that was the problem but the actual media used in
> the bare pcb. It had surface mount components on both sides and through
> hole connectors. If the PCB survived going through the reflow oven and
> flow solder tank then it would often vapourise if it needed some rework.
> The topside pads were so thin that a soldering iron waved in their
> general direction had amusing magic smoke consequences. We gave up
> trying to replace the SMT ASIC as the PCB would go very brown before the
> hot air thing had melted the solder.

Ah I see. Thin copper, poor adherence and fine pitch components. The only
way I've ever been consistently successful removing fine pitch surface mount
devices is to assume I'm going to lose the device and cut the pins with a
*very* sharp scalpel so that they could be removed one at a time. Even then
it was tedious and fraught.

[wessie]

"rick" <rick...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
news:j7sdcb$nqe$1...@dont-email.me:

We had all the gear to remove >100 pin quad-flat packs and our rework
specialst became quite good at lifting them off & fitting new ones.
There again, our in house bare boards were generally robust, with
internal ground planes to meet EMI regs. As I left those new fangled
ball grid arrays were coming onto the scene. Cunting fucking things. No
access to attach a probe and often the signal you wanted to monitor was
on a track on one of the multi-layers. Comedic results in the rework
section too.

[rick]

"wessie" <putmyn...@tesco.net> wrote in message

news:Xns9F85C8308...@88.198.244.100...

> We had all the gear to remove >100 pin quad-flat packs and our rework
> specialst became quite good at lifting them off & fitting new ones.
> There again, our in house bare boards were generally robust, with
> internal ground planes to meet EMI regs. As I left those new fangled
> ball grid arrays were coming onto the scene. Cunting fucking things. No
> access to attach a probe and often the signal you wanted to monitor was
> on a track on one of the multi-layers. Comedic results in the rework
> section too.

I did wonder if you'd savoured the pleasure of BGAs :) Last year I did a
short stint (software familiarisation) at a company who design 'probe'
cards. 40+ layer boards (5mm thick) stuffed with BGAs, complimentary pairs,
controlled impedances, microvias, buried vias and the occasional discrete
component. Some of the individual devices cost £1k+. No consideration though
of number of vias or attempts to rationalise the routing - just bung it on
and if you get a problem add another layer - the rules driven software makes
sure the dots are joined.
Reworking would be an extremely technical challenge!

That's when I knew I was getting old :(

[PipL]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:40:33 +0000 (UTC), wessie <putmyn...@tesco.net>
wrote:

>ball grid arrays were coming onto the scene. Cunting fucking things. No
>access to attach a probe and often the signal you wanted to monitor was
>on a track on one of the multi-layers.

We do this deliberately, to make reverse-engineering that little bit harder.
And yes, it is a PITA, especially when the factory has a batch of 10,000
pre-programmed units they want to rework to a different flavour of software
for a different customer.

--

Pip

[Buzby]

Mark Olson wrote:

> Thomas wrote:
> >On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 05:01:38 -0700, YTC#1 <bdp-s...@ytc1.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> > > A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too
> > > much water in it and died.
> > > ...

> > > Has anyone any idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????
> >
> > A Honda.
>
> HISS

BOOO

--
Buzby
"There's nothing more dangerous than a resourceful idiot"

[frag]

In article <j7sflb$7lr$1...@dont-email.me>, rick...@tiscali.co.uk says...

>
> 40+ layer boards (5mm thick) stuffed with BGAs, complimentary pairs,

40 layers? Fuck, I give up with anything over 5 layers (if the problem
is burned tracks)

How much does it cost to manufacture a 40 layer board vs. some decent
routing s/w? Can't see the sense in it.

> controlled impedances, microvias, buried vias and the occasional discrete
> component. Some of the individual devices cost £1k+. No consideration though
> of number of vias or attempts to rationalise the routing - just bung it on
> and if you get a problem add another layer - the rules driven software makes
> sure the dots are joined.
> Reworking would be an extremely technical challenge!
>
> That's when I knew I was getting old :(

I don't think you're getting old, I think that place' designers have
lost it.


--
frag

[frag]

In article <uvo3a7p9l2qvmggm5...@4ax.com>,
plus...@live.co.uk says...

I had a look round A.N.Other MOD establishment near to me and they had a
lovely x-ray unit to view the individual balls of their BGAs to debug
problems in prototypes.

--
frag

[rick]

"frag" <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.290cffe2...@www.ukrm.co.uk...

> In article <j7sflb$7lr$1...@dont-email.me>, rick...@tiscali.co.uk says...
>>
>> 40+ layer boards (5mm thick) stuffed with BGAs, complimentary pairs,
>
> 40 layers? Fuck, I give up with anything over 5 layers (if the problem
> is burned tracks)

I know it sounds ridiculous - it did to me as well. And while I was
completely confident that if allowed the time I could reduce the layer count
by ten or more, their argument was that it costs as much to produce a 30
layer board as a 40 layer so the only real consideration is time. I couldn't
really argue with that. The problem with these layouts is that they have to
be electrically invisible (the boards are used in chip manufacture). One of
the ways they acheive this is by pairing signal lines as soon as possible
after they leave the ball grid array. If you look at a BGA footprint and
think about how the hell you are going to break out the signals and run them
next to the relevant pairing you'll see why so many layers are required.

> How much does it cost to manufacture a 40 layer board vs. some decent
> routing s/w? Can't see the sense in it.

Cost is no object in this context - if the board is 'correct' it will be
used to facilitate mass manufacture. They use top of the range routing
software. It's rules driven which means that among other things, you can set
the conditions for a particular signal line and the DRC will not allow an
error. The controlled impedance trace widths can change between layers due
to dialectric differences forced by build limitations (ie the layers vary in
thickness). The software can accommodate this so that when you do switch
layers the trace width automatically changes. It's a feckin' miracle :) I
would have loved more time with it.

>> controlled impedances, microvias, buried vias and the occasional discrete
>> component. Some of the individual devices cost £1k+. No consideration
>> though
>> of number of vias or attempts to rationalise the routing - just bung it
>> on
>> and if you get a problem add another layer - the rules driven software
>> makes
>> sure the dots are joined.
>> Reworking would be an extremely technical challenge!
>>
>> That's when I knew I was getting old :(
>
> I don't think you're getting old, I think that place' designers have
> lost it.

I think there is an element of truth in that. When faced with such
complexity, it's not surprising that the designers get lazy - why bother
thinking when you can solve the problem with another layer? Unfortunately
for me, I still contend that vias are undesirable and traces should not
switch layers if at all possible etc. I *like* the challenge of layout
optimisation and simplifying PCB manufacture - but they don't. So I feel
'old'.

[PipL]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:32:28 +0100, frag <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote:

>I had a look round A.N.Other MOD establishment near to me and they had a
>lovely x-ray unit to view the individual balls of their BGAs to debug
>problems in prototypes.

There's a branch of a commercial PCB assembler in Cambridge that has one of
those: pretty impressive stuff.

--

Pip

[Thomas]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:00:17 -0700, rick <rick...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>
> "frag" <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:MPG.290cffe2...@www.ukrm.co.uk...
>> In article <j7sflb$7lr$1...@dont-email.me>, rick...@tiscali.co.uk says...
>>>
>>> 40+ layer boards (5mm thick) stuffed with BGAs, complimentary pairs,

>> ...

> I *like* the challenge of layout
> optimisation and simplifying PCB manufacture - but they don't. So I feel
> 'old'.

Christ, I must have ridden in covered wagons then. My first corporate job
was as an electronic tech, doing prototype boards for a voice recognition
project. I wirewrapped 16 boards, 1' square. (FWIW, it had a vocabulary of
100 words.) My next job was on CV CADDS3, laying out a single layer PCB
manually. I switched from electronics to mechanical design around the time
surface mount chips came out.

[rick]

"Thomas" <keen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:op.v3rtm...@tom-pc.san.rr.com...

> Christ, I must have ridden in covered wagons then. My first corporate job
> was as an electronic tech, doing prototype boards for a voice recognition
> project. I wirewrapped 16 boards, 1' square. (FWIW, it had a vocabulary of
> 100 words.) My next job was on CV CADDS3, laying out a single layer PCB
> manually. I switched from electronics to mechanical design around the time
> surface mount chips came out.

Pre surface mount chips? You mean valves? And gaslight? Did they have
electricity then?

I wirewrapped a Z80 based computer board (also a foot square) for Reuters in
the late seventies. Fuck me, wire wrapping was tedious :(

[frag]

In article <h546a7p14oo29k20h...@4ax.com>,
plus...@live.co.uk says...

It was.

The guy was showing us what a good joint looked like vs. what a bad
joint looked like, IIRC the size of the solder balls/pads on the display
were upto 2~3" diameter? That's a large amount of magnification, really
good detail, so fark knows what power of X rays they were using.


--
frag

[frag]

In article <j7v0f9$e36$1...@dont-email.me>, rick...@tiscali.co.uk says...

>
> it costs as much to produce a 30 layer board as a 40 layer

*boggle*

IWHT that upping the layers would increase the cost exponentially, but I
don't know how they're actually manufactured.

I'm guessing from the facts that a lot of the costs of manufacture are
setting up the machines with the layouts and the costs of the machines,
and if a 50 layer board is 'X', a 5 layer board will only be a bit
cheaper as they've got to pay for the machines that can make 50 layer
boards?

> > How much does it cost to manufacture a 40 layer board vs. some
decent
> > routing s/w? Can't see the sense in it.
>
> Cost is no object in this context - if the board is 'correct' it will be
> used to facilitate mass manufacture.

It was the mass manufacture cost I was thinking of.

> They use top of the range routing
> software. It's rules driven which means that among other things, you can set
> the conditions for a particular signal line and the DRC will not allow an
> error. The controlled impedance trace widths can change between layers due
> to dialectric differences forced by build limitations (ie the layers vary in
> thickness). The software can accommodate this so that when you do switch
> layers the trace width automatically changes. It's a feckin' miracle :) I
> would have loved more time with it.

Heh, sounds good stuff.

Bit more complex than the freebie software I played about with a while
ago.


--
frag

[steve auvache]

This seems like a good time to mention cable lacing.

--

steve auvache

[c...@nospam.netunix.com]

Thomas <keen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Christ, I must have ridden in covered wagons then. My first corporate job
> was as an electronic tech, doing prototype boards for a voice recognition
> project. I wirewrapped 16 boards, 1' square. (FWIW, it had a vocabulary of
> 100 words.) My next job was on CV CADDS3, laying out a single layer PCB
> manually. I switched from electronics to mechanical design around the time
> surface mount chips came out.

Hmmmm. Resist pen, chemicals, 1mm drills, jumpers for goalposts........
And re-threading broken wires through core memory.

--
01Y CBR600F (for sale)
78 Honda 400/4 in yellow
<vacancy>
98 Yamaha YP250 Majesty

[PipL]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:42:12 +0100, steve auvache <dont...@thecow.me.uk>
wrote:

>This seems like a good time to mention cable lacing.

My first ever activity in my first ever job.

Waxed string for the screened cables in the 19" cubicle; black lacing cord for
within the subassemblies.
--

Pip

[rick]

"frag" <ne...@ukrm.co.uk> wrote in message

news:MPG.290d51194...@www.ukrm.co.uk...

>> Cost is no object in this context - if the board is 'correct' it will be
>> used to facilitate mass manufacture.
>
> It was the mass manufacture cost I was thinking of.

These boards are part of the test head in chip fabrication - there is only
one and it is used in the subsequent manufacture of (hundreds of) thousands
of chips :)

[frag]

rick burbled...

Ah, gotcha.

--
frag

[YTC#1]

Bad form encore une fois...

See latest thread ^^^ there somewhere ^^^^, still having issues :-(

[YTC#1]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:46:49 +0000, wessie wrote:

> YTC#1 <bdp-s...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in
> news:pan.2011.10.21....@ytc1.co.uk:
>

>> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much
>> water in it and died.
>>
>> It got me home, but that was it.
>>
>> So, I bought a 2nd hand dash (Strada) which at first worked allowing the
>> bike to run.
>>
>> Then it decided to forget the keys[1]. If I reprogrammed it, it lost
>> them again in a day. Then it decided to sit and ask "Insert the I key",
>> when the I key was in.
>>
>>

> How does the PCB "remember" the key codes?
>

<snip>

>
> The other thing, if the system is not recognising the keys then you could
> have a ring antanna problem. This is something owners of R1200GS owners
> will be very familiar with. It's possible this was damaged in the flood.
> The ring antenna sends out a pulse when you turn on the ignition and waits
> for a response from a known key. With the R-GS the problem was
> intermittent and a new one fixed the problem.

Ah, I think I may have one of them according to the wiring diagram.
So, I need to find the little bugger and try that then ?

I'll go look at the online parts stuff

[Fraser Johnston]

On 21/10/11 8:01 PM, YTC#1 wrote:
> A couple of months ago my long suffering Peg dash got a bit too much water
> in it and died.
>
> It got me home, but that was it.
>
> So, I bought a 2nd hand dash (Strada) which at first worked allowing the
> bike to run.
>
> Then it decided to forget the keys[1]. If I reprogrammed it, it lost them
> again in a day. Then it decided to sit and ask "Insert the I key", when
> the I key was in.
>

> Ignition would not fire.
>
> I refiited the dash with water problem. It cycles the rev needle and
> allows me to fire the ignition. No key issue. Then cuts out (the ECU is
> not happy with the shortin the dash).
>
> Conclusion. 2nd Hand Dash fubared.
>
> Bit the bullet. Bought a new dash.
>
> Fitted dash.
>
> Guess what ?
>
> It asks for the I key (in Italian) and does nothing.
>
> Old dash still lets me fire the ignition.
>
> Has *anyone* *any* idea what I need to short, kick, reset ?????
>
> (Yes I am asking Aprilia but that is like blood from a stone)
>
> [1] Aprilia likes you to register the keys with the ECU, otherwise you
> have to enter a 5 digit code every time you start up and ride with the
> word "SERVICE" flashing at you.
>

I'd almost guarantee you stuffed something up in the swapping out
process. Start tracing wires from the ignition barrel.

Fraser