FOAK - Hard Disk Drive longeivity

[Stephen Packer]

I have all of my 'data' (music, video, pictures, documents, financial records etc.) on an external hard drive. I've also got a couple of external hard drives that I use for backup purposes. Some of the data is also 'in the cloud' but not all of it. (backup is Apple's time machine, cloud is iCloud, but not the photos since there are too many of them/I'm not willing to pay the monthly price).

I also have a third backup hard drive that's 'off site' in case of fire/theft but I don't 'cycle' that often enough.

I don't think the drives get worked hard, there's next to no photo editing, no video work or anything that's going to shift large amounts of data around.

All of the drives (data, backup) are Seagate bog-standard drives.

So provided that I don't have my house broken into I feel (fairly) secure that I shouldn't lose anything important.

However... I had one of the backup hard drives fail last year and on inspection it was 9 years old. I guess I'd had my money's worth.

So, my question is, for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other sources?

Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

[ogden]

Stephen Packer wrote:
> So, my question is, for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other sources?

That's what 'd do. They're unlikely to fail at the same time, so as long as you're checking them often enough that multiple drives don't fail between checks, you should be able to replace/duplicate recover as necessary. Once every six months should be plenty.

I have seen disks fail simultaneously. Three at once in a single system, all disks from the same batch, installed at the same time, never powered down. That was fun. But very unusual, and happened in soak testing before going live, so very early in their lives.

[wessie]

Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e9309068-344b-4efe...@googlegroups.com:

> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?
>

do you need to archive any of it?

who will look at this stuff in the future?

I have been having a clear out and found a load of actual printed photos
taken in the 90s, mostly of my son on holidays. I have asked if he has any
interest and the answer is, "no." I have culled them and just have a few
dozen that are of interest to me, which I might scan eventually.

[GeoffC]

Stephen Packer wrote:

<SNIP>

>
> So, my question is, for moderate home use, should I just wait until
> drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are
> different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one
> drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other
> sources?
>
> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

Wait until they fail, get your moneys worth. As long as they are backed
up in two other places. I heard the single most important factor for
longevity is keeping them cool. I think a well cooled drive could last
a lot longer than 5 or 6 years, if they get through the first year or
so ime.



--

Geoff
NTV650

[Stephen Packer]

On Friday, 24 February 2023 at 12:36:35 UTC, wessie wrote:
> Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:e9309068-344b-4efe...@googlegroups.com:
> > Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?
> >
> do you need to archive any of it?
>
> who will look at this stuff in the future?

Yes, and Me, mostly although I think as my children get older (now in their
30s...) they may have some interest in a 'copy of the family archive' (of
videos and photos)

> I have been having a clear out and found a load of actual printed photos
> taken in the 90s, mostly of my son on holidays. I have asked if he has any
> interest and the answer is, "no." I have culled them and just have a few
> dozen that are of interest to me, which I might scan eventually.

I recently scanned boxes full of photos. Probably won't ever look at them a lot
but at least, if I want to, I can... in principal anyway. A bit like the things I keep
'just in case' and when I need them can't find them.

[wessie]

Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:d29a9f6f-b7ff-456c...@googlegroups.com:

> A bit like the things I keep 'just in case' and when I need them can't
> find them.
>

I have been getting rid of a lot of that sort of stuff. Found a suitcase
full of liners from motorcycling jackets & trousers. Some over 30 years
old. Also my original waterproof, padded overtrousers. Belstaff Probika,
bought from Claremont M/c on London Road c1992. Binned the lot.

Not used a jacket liner for years. Prefer a regular fleece as you can wear
it separately if on a trip away or at lunch if commuting.

[Pete Fisher]

On 24/02/2023 13:18, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Friday, 24 February 2023 at 12:36:35 UTC, wessie wrote:
>> Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:e9309068-344b-4efe...@googlegroups.com:
>>> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?
>>>
>> do you need to archive any of it?
>>
>> who will look at this stuff in the future?
>
> Yes, and Me, mostly although I think as my children get older (now in their
> 30s...) they may have some interest in a 'copy of the family archive' (of
> videos and photos)
>
>> I have been having a clear out and found a load of actual printed photos
>> taken in the 90s, mostly of my son on holidays. I have asked if he has any
>> interest and the answer is, "no." I have culled them and just have a few
>> dozen that are of interest to me, which I might scan eventually.

I recently digitised some old Super8 videos. Just short clips of
'significant' periods. Also transcribed some Sony digital8 on to hard
desk and then backed up in to 'the cloud'. The lad was intrigued by some
from the years before he has memories. His new SO enjoyed them at Xmas
too - with his permission to show them.

>
> I recently scanned boxes full of photos. Probably won't ever look at them a lot
> but at least, if I want to, I can... in principal anyway. A bit like the things I keep
> 'just in case' and when I need them can't find them.

Welcome to my world.

Though for the very best 'only very occasional use' tool porn I can
usually find them (like my crow's foot spanner for the MX5 alternator
bottom bolt). Spare bike parts, on the other hand, are sometimes more
elusive. Now I have a decent shed I really must do some further
rationalisation and categorisation.



--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

[Pete Fisher]

I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
Gortex trews.

Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
offender in that department though. Who needs four different rucksacks,
five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of crampons?

[Mike Fleming]

On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>
> I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
> Gortex trews.
>
> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
> offender in that department though. Who needs four different rucksacks,
> five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of crampons?

For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness end?

[Pete Fisher]

GPWM.

[YTC#1]

On 24/02/2023 12:06, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I have all of my 'data' (music, video, pictures, documents, financial records etc.) on an external hard drive. I've also got a couple of external hard drives that I use for backup purposes. Some of the data is also 'in the cloud' but not all of it. (backup is Apple's time machine, cloud is iCloud, but not the photos since there are too many of them/I'm not willing to pay the monthly price).
>
> I also have a third backup hard drive that's 'off site' in case of fire/theft but I don't 'cycle' that often enough.

When this subject raised it's head a couple of years I ago, I reailsed
that all my kids are on VM broadband.

So, using some RaspPIs I setup a VPN between us and now send the pics
etc weekly (well just updates) and let them backup to me as well.

So, with ZFS checking the mirrored drives monthly, the daily/weekly
backup and the weekly offiste update I feel fairly covered.


--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

[wessie]

Pete Fisher <pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:k5s5g2...@mid.individual.net:

> On 24/02/2023 15:52, Mike Fleming wrote:
>> On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>>
>>> I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
>>> Gortex trews.
>>>
>>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different
>>> rucksacks, five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of
>>> crampons?
>>
>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness
>> end?
>
> GPWM.
>
>

I seem to collect gloves. I found my first ever pair from 1992, Rhino[0]
branded leather with Thinsulate lining.

The leather is somewhat cracked. Binned with the Alpinestars fabric ones[1]
that have worn through on an index finger.

[0] what happened to Rhino? Did it become RST?
[1] best waterproof glove I have ever owned, bought in 1999 from the dealer
I bought my CBR600FX from. No longer made.

[Bruce Horrocks]

On 24/02/2023 12:06, Stephen Packer wrote:

Drives are usually pretty reliable right up until they start showing
SMART status errors and then they can fail quite quickly - within a week
or two.

The catch is that USB drives don't provide the SMART status. :-(

So replacing every 5 years seems reasonable. I wouldn't wait until one
fails as sods law says it will just be at a time when you can't get a
replacement immediately.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

[ogden]

Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> replacing every 5 years seems reasonable. I wouldn't wait until one
> fails as sods law says it will just be at a time when you can't get a
> replacement immediately.

If it's one of multiple copies (primary, local backup and offsite backup) then "immediately" shouldn't be an issue.

[siwilson]

On 24/02/2023 18:48, Bruce Horrocks wrote:

>
> Drives are usually pretty reliable right up until they start showing
> SMART status errors and then they can fail quite quickly - within a week
> or two.
>

I've got a drive in a NAS that's had a SMART error for a while. It's
only complaining about a slow spin up speed.

--
/Simon

[siwilson]

It's always the one with the latest stuff on though :(

--
/Simon

[Boots]

On 24/02/2023 20:06 Stephen Packer penned these words:

> for moderate home use, should I just wait until drives fail, trusting in the fact that the backup drives are different ages so are unlikely to fail at the same time and if one drive fails then I can restore the data from two or three other sources?
>
> Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

We, well L lost some stuff when both her back up USB drive which was not more
than a couple of years old and the drive in her PC both failed simultaneously.
*Most* was also in dropbox so not a total disaster, my current strategy is to
automatically back up to a NAS, this has N+1 redundancy running Synology SHR
albeit with equal size disks this is effectively RAID#5[1]. The NAS then backs
up to various OneDrive courtesy of my 365 subscription.

On an adhoc basis I copy data between her PC and mine so important stuff is on
both and also to a local USB drive. Stuff I really really would hate to lose
video of the kids/family photos the kids also have copies of as did/does the ex.

[1] As I recall 2 drives are <12 months old, 1 is ~3 years and 1 ~6 years old.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

[Andy Burns]

wessie wrote:

> who will look at this stuff in the future?

I have inherited the family collection of photos, largely dead people
that I never knew, which includes several copies of a B&W photo of me
wrapped in some sort of shawl ... I'm sure my parents must have been proud.

[Turby]

On 2/24/2023 8:33 AM, wessie wrote:
> Pete Fisher <pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> news:k5s5g2...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 24/02/2023 15:52, Mike Fleming wrote:
>>> On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Who needs four different
>>>> rucksacks, five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of
>>>> crampons?
>>>
>>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness
>>> end?
>>
>> GPWM.
>
> I seem to collect gloves.

Everybody has collections. A sock drawer, kitchen utensils, books...
I have a collection of collections. Over 100, at last count. Maps (100s
of them,) beer deckels, sea shells, animal bones, surf gear, etc. My
collection of motorcycle gear is relatively small. Only 5 jackets, all
worn out. A few gloves.


--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

[jeremy]

On 25 Feb 2023 at 07:57:54 GMT, "Boots" <ne...@millhouse-communications.co.uk>
wrote:

I'm currently running a synology DS<something> - it's 9 years old and so the
seagate disks (mirrored) are same age. I use it as a backup device for photos
and family videos. Really important stuff I'd also put in a folder in Onedrive
(like you, part of O365 subscription) - easy to get to.

I also set up an additional backup of the NAS drives to an account on Synology
C2 - it's managed Hyper Backup on the synology.

It's obviously inevitable that one or other drives will fail eventually but
hopefully even if I lose them both the other backups will be adequate.


--
jeremy

[jeremy]

On 25 Feb 2023 at 17:52:39 GMT, "Turby" <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:

> A few gloves.

Hopefully an even number.
--
jeremy

[RustyHinge]

No, any *proper* motorcyclist has a third hand...

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

[Bruce Horrocks]

On 24/02/2023 18:57, ogden wrote:

That doesn't help with the rising sense of paranoia the longer it takes
to get the replacement installed. :-)

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

[Bruce Horrocks]

Slow spin up could be a sign things are going awry or maybe that the PSU
is struggling when the server starts as everything is drawing more or
less max power.

I would check every few days and its steadily increasing then I would
replace it before it fails to spin up at all.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

[Pipl]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 16:33:26 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willn...@tesco.net> wrote:

>Pete Fisher <pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>news:k5s5g2...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 24/02/2023 15:52, Mike Fleming wrote:
>>> On 24/02/2023 14:56, Pete Fisher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I really ought to get a new jacket to the same standard as my Richa
>>>> Gortex trews.
>>>>
>>>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>>>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>>>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>>>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different
>>>> rucksacks, five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of
>>>> crampons?
>>>
>>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness
>>> end?
>>
>> GPWM.
>>
>>
>
>I seem to collect gloves. I found my first ever pair from 1992, Rhino[0]
>branded leather with Thinsulate lining.

Boots in my case. Two pairs of road/track boots, one pair of MX boots,
one pair of Derri boots, plus non-motorcycle stuff: ski boots,
snowboard boots, walking boots, ex-Army boots, armoured work boots.

--

-Pip

[Champ]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 15:52:58 +0000, Mike Fleming <mi...@tauzero.co.uk>
wrote:

>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different rucksacks,
>> five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of crampons?

Any serious walker/climber!

>For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness end?

*exactly*
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

[Champ]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 04:06:27 -0800 (PST), Stephen Packer
<stephen...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Some of the data is also 'in the cloud' but not all of it. (backup is Apple's time machine, cloud is
>iCloud, but not the photos since there are too many of them/I'm not willing to pay the
>monthly price).

It may be that I've got a lot less data that you, but I have most
stuff in the cloud nowadays. I pay Microsoft 1.99 a month for 100GB.
I like having it accessible from anywhere, and literally not worrying
about the subject of this thread.

I don't keep media in the cloud, but all my music and films (that I
care about) are on the original media anyway

[Pete Fisher]

On 27/02/2023 15:43, Champ wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 15:52:58 +0000, Mike Fleming <mi...@tauzero.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different rucksacks,
>>> five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of crampons?
>
> Any serious walker/climber!
>

She certainly used to be as serious a walker/climber, as I was a
motorcycle 'racer'. Not so much these days. I still have my one piece
leathers TBF, though I can't see me ever needing them again.

>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness end?
>
> *exactly*

Already conceded. Down to just a two guitar and one mandolin household
though.

[RustyHinge]

On 27/02/2023 16:22, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 27/02/2023 15:43, Champ wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 15:52:58 +0000, Mike Fleming <mi...@tauzero.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Lots of such kit thrown out before the move, but the just recently
>>>> enhanced insulation and high standard flooring loft is going to be a
>>>> strong impetus towards the 'stuff expands' trap. SWMBO is the main
>>>> offender in that department though. Who needs four different rucksacks,
>>>> five varieties of walking/climbing boot and two sets of crampons?
>>
>> Any serious walker/climber!
>>
>
> She certainly used to be as serious a walker/climber, as I was a
> motorcycle 'racer'. Not so much these days. I still have my one piece
> leathers TBF, though I can't see me ever needing them again.
>
>
>>> For heaven's sake, man, the next thing you'll be saying is "who needs
>>> more than one bike, or more than one guitar?". Where will the madness
>>> end?
>>
>> *exactly*
>
> Already conceded. Down to just a two guitar and one mandolin household
> though.

And all I have is one clarsach, one harmonica and an autoharp with a
broken string. Come to think of it, I might have a recorder, and there's
a 'project' baritone saxehorn. Brass squeezebulb motor-horn doesn't
count, I suppose.

[Mark Olson]

RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:

> And all I have is one clarsach, one harmonica and an autoharp with a
> broken string. Come to think of it, I might have a recorder, and there's
> a 'project' baritone saxehorn. Brass squeezebulb motor-horn doesn't
> count, I suppose.

You play(ed) a bari? My favorite horn. Used to have the use of one
(a Selmer Mark VI, no less) in high school. I kept it after graduation
and played in a big 18 piece band, mostly weddings, etc. Finally had
to give it back so another lucky student could have a go.

Now I've just got my 1968 vintage Mark VI alto. Haven't played it
for many years. :( Both my sons played woodwinds (#1, alto sax,
#2, clarinet + bass clarinet) but neither one has expressed any
interest. They can fight over it after I'm gone.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

[RustyHinge]

I was just freeing the tuning loop and tidying-up the horn when I had
the heart-attack, so it hangs above the kitchen door ATM, waiting. Then
I had a stroke and it's still waiting.

Should I recover enough and live long enough, I still intend to *learn*
to play it properly.

I found a really nice flute in a junk-shop and gave it to a local school
(where it featured in a concert a few weeks later) and the horn will
probably end-up there too. The (new) mouthpiece cost me more than the
horn...

[chrisnd @ukrm]

On 28/02/2023 06:10, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 27/02/2023 19:21, Mark Olson wrote:
>> RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> And all I have is one clarsach, one harmonica and an autoharp with a
>>> broken string. Come to think of it, I might have a recorder, and there's
>>> a 'project' baritone saxehorn. Brass squeezebulb motor-horn doesn't
>>> count, I suppose.
>>
>> You play(ed) a bari? My favorite horn. Used to have the use of one
>> (a Selmer Mark VI, no less) in high school. I kept it after graduation
>> and played in a big 18 piece band, mostly weddings, etc.  Finally had
>> to give it back so another lucky student could have a go.
>>
>> Now I've just got my 1968 vintage Mark VI alto. Haven't played it
>> for many years. :( Both my sons played woodwinds (#1, alto sax,
>> #2, clarinet + bass clarinet) but neither one has expressed any
>> interest. They can fight over it after I'm gone.
>
> I was just freeing the tuning loop and tidying-up the horn when I had
> the heart-attack, so it hangs above the kitchen door ATM, waiting. Then
> I had a stroke and it's still waiting.
>
> Should I recover enough and live long enough, I still intend to *learn*
> to play it properly.

Good for you.
The older I've got, the more determined I am to keep learning new stuff.

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

[Pipl]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 06:10:25 +0000, RustyHinge
<rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/02/2023 19:21, Mark Olson wrote:
>> Now I've just got my 1968 vintage Mark VI alto. Haven't played it
>> for many years. :( Both my sons played woodwinds (#1, alto sax,
>> #2, clarinet + bass clarinet) but neither one has expressed any
>> interest. They can fight over it after I'm gone.
>
>I was just freeing the tuning loop and tidying-up the horn when I had
>the heart-attack, so it hangs above the kitchen door ATM, waiting. Then
>I had a stroke and it's still waiting.

Perhaps there's a Divine Music Lover?

--

-Pip

[Paul Carmichael]

El Tue, 28 Feb 2023 10:09:34 +0000, chrisnd @ukrm escribió:

> The older I've got, the more determined I am to keep learning new stuff.

I can relate to that. 61 now and just gave up Latin (too damned hard) and
have gone back to learning German. Also still trying very hard to become
competent on classical guitar - not good so far.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Stephen Packer]

On Friday, 24 February 2023 at 12:06:29 UTC, Stephen Packer wrote:
<snip question about disk life/replacement strategy>

>Or, should I change them after, say, five or six years?

And then... just like that... the data drive is flagged as failing. I think it was about 6 years old.

I'd already decided I wanted to mess about with a Synology NAS so all of the data's on there, on
redundant disks, now anyway (possible exception being the 'apple photo' library which contains
all of my photos/scans. The data's certainly there but the meta-data that goes with it, maybe
not. Apple aren't fond of allowing photo libraries to exist on network shares because of the risk
of simultaneous editing by multiple machines (apparently)).

So currently copying the drive to a 'temp' store, shortly to be replaced with a fresh USB connected
SSD. I think.