UKRM 2024 French Trip

[Champ]

The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
really taking the piss. We're going...

...to the Isle of Man :-)
(if you want to, of course)

Last May I was sat at the bar in Belgium (or was it France? It was
very close to the border, either way), chatting to Cab and the subject
turned to what we would do next year. Somehow I ended up being the
DFV to bring it to the IoM. Drink had been taken..

I'm still sorting out costs, options etc, but wanted to put a marker
down, so people could put it in their diaries, and I can guage
interest

Dates
- outbound 3/5/24, Liverpool-> Douglas, 11:15am
- inbound 5/5/24, Douglas->Liverpool, 15:00
(given mileage will be much reduced, for obvious reasons, I'm also
getting options to return on Bank Holiday Monday, 6/5/24)

Costs
I'm looking at 3 hotels at the mo, and 2 nights B&B for a shared room
ranges from £160 to £200 per person. Single room supplement ranges
upwards from £60 (to £155!)
Extra night, Sunday 5th, ranges from £45 to £65
Evening meal may well have to be costed separately, and gives us the
option to eat elsewhere anyway.
Cost of the bike on the ferry is looking like £80 (but may be more,
for ...reasons....)

So the bottom line is min £240 to get there and have a bed for two
nights. Are people interested?
Unlike previous French trips, there's a local (me) who will be happy
to act a guide :-) Not sure if that's much of a selling point...

Lemme know what you think
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

[Colin Irvine]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 17:08:26 +0000, "Cab" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>Champ wrote:
>
>> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
>> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
>> really taking the piss. We're going...
>>
>> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
>> (if you want to, of course)

<snip>

>> So the bottom line is min £240 to get there and have a bed for two
>> nights. Are people interested?
>> Unlike previous French trips, there's a local (me) who will be happy
>> to act a guide :-) Not sure if that's much of a selling point...
>>
>> Lemme know what you think
>

>Yeah, put me down for that! I fancy having a blatt on UK motorways up
>to the ferry, not worrying about speed cameras. :-)

We'd be up for it, although we'd probably choose different days and
ferries! Well, there's always one, isn't there?



--
Colin Irvine
R1250RS

[Turby]

On 12/17/2023 5:54 AM, Champ wrote:
> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
> really taking the piss. We're going...

I wish.

> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
> (if you want to, of course)

Of course I want to.

>
> Lemme know what you think

It's tragic. I have only been out of my county for less than an hour
this year. Dunno what I can manage next year.


--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

[Pete Fisher]

Tempting. I will consult my packed social diary. Might have to keep my
Pahnd Island powder dry for the MRC 50th Anniversary trip in 2025
though. Having done the Ramsey 5000 hill climb twice (1996 and 1997) at
about that time of year, I know the weather can be "variable".

Which machine to take is also an issue. The wee vee will obviously be
going in 25 (if I can still start it). The CB250RS would cope, but the
401 is the more logical choice - except for the ability to carry
luggage. Still, for just two nights I shouldn't need much. I used to
manage a week with just a tank bag and tail pack on the Saturno but that
was capable of taking my huge expanding tank bag. Liverpool via Chester
and the tunnel wouldn't be too boring on a well screwed together 400
single but may exceed my arse comfort range unless I can find a better
seat. CBA to send it off for rebuilding with Bultex foam (the seat!).

Pencil me in as a possible.



--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

[YTC#1]

On 18/12/2023 03:32, Turby wrote:
> On 12/17/2023 5:54 AM, Champ wrote:
>> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
>> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium.  But next year is
>> really taking the piss.  We're going...
>
> I wish.
>
>> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
>> (if you want to, of course)
>
> Of course I want to.
>>
>> Lemme know what you think
>
> It's tragic. I have only been out of my county for less than an hour
> this year.

Mexico for drugs?

>
>


--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

[Eddie]

On 17/12/2023 13:54, Champ wrote:

> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
> really taking the piss. We're going...
>
> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
> (if you want to, of course)

< snip >

> Lemme know what you think

Hmmm, might be tempted by that. It'd be nice not to have to spend the
best part of an extra day going all the way down the A1 and back.

Going via Heysham would probably be more convenient for us proper
northerners.

--
Eddie ed...@deguello.org

[CT]

Champ wrote:

> Drink had been taken..

French whiskey, IIRC!

> Lemme know what you think

Unfortunately I think I'll have to pass on this one as I have another
(non-motorcycling) trip to which I've already committed.

--
Chris

[Champ]

On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 14:25:03 +0000, Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:

>Going via Heysham would probably be more convenient for us proper
>northerners.

<sucks teeth>
That option *could* be provided, but I'm trying to save myself work by
keeping things simple

[Turby]

On 12/18/2023 2:23 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 18/12/2023 03:32, Turby wrote:
>> On 12/17/2023 5:54 AM, Champ wrote:
>>> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
>>> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium.  But next year is
>>> really taking the piss.  We're going...
>>
>> I wish.
>>
>>> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
>>> (if you want to, of course)
>>
>> Of course I want to.
>>>
>>> Lemme know what you think
>>
>> It's tragic. I have only been out of my county for less than an hour
>> this year.
> Mexico for drugs?

County, not country.
And no, I don't need to go anywhere for drugs. I grow my own.

[YTC#1]

:-)

[Eddie]

On 18/12/2023 18:59, Champ wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 14:25:03 +0000, Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:
>
>> Going via Heysham would probably be more convenient for us proper
>> northerners.
>
> <sucks teeth>
> That option *could* be provided, but I'm trying to save myself work by
> keeping things simple

Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to book it myself, unless you're managing
to negotiate a massive discount with the block booking from Liverpool.

--
Eddie ed...@deguello.org

[Colin Irvine]

No discount would be enough to make us travel all the way to
Liverpool! If we go we'll probably aim to catch the 14:15 ferry on
Thursday 2nd May, and the 8:45 back on the Sunday.

--
Colin Irvine
R1250RS

[Champ]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:52:44 +0000, Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:

Having just checked the listed crossing prices on
www.steam-packet.com, it's fair to say that the discounts are
significant! But they will also apply to Heysham too,

I'm dealing with Steam Packet Holidays, for the first time, and I
don't know what magic they apply / restrictions they have for their
prices and discounts.

Anyway, I shall ask if we (as a group) can use crossings from both
Heysham and Liverpool

[Champ]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 09:32:29 +0000, Colin Irvine
<lo...@colinandpat.co.uk> wrote:

>>Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to book it myself, unless you're managing
>>to negotiate a massive discount with the block booking from Liverpool.
>
>No discount would be enough to make us travel all the way to
>Liverpool!

All the way to Liverpool! <checks map> It's 70 miles...

>If we go we'll probably aim to catch the 14:15 ferry on
>Thursday 2nd May, and the 8:45 back on the Sunday.

See my reply to Eddie. The apparent discounts I'm getting from Steam
Packet Holidays are not trivial

[Eddie]

On 19/12/2023 13:09, Champ wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:52:44 +0000, Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to book it myself, unless you're managing
>> to negotiate a massive discount with the block booking from Liverpool.
>
> Having just checked the listed crossing prices on
> www.steam-packet.com, it's fair to say that the discounts are
> significant! But they will also apply to Heysham too,

Nice.

> I'm dealing with Steam Packet Holidays, for the first time, and I
> don't know what magic they apply / restrictions they have for their
> prices and discounts.
>
> Anyway, I shall ask if we (as a group) can use crossings from both
> Heysham and Liverpool

Much appreciated.

--
Eddie ed...@deguello.org

[Colin Irvine]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 13:10:32 +0000, Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 09:32:29 +0000, Colin Irvine
><lo...@colinandpat.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to book it myself, unless you're managing
>>>to negotiate a massive discount with the block booking from Liverpool.
>>
>>No discount would be enough to make us travel all the way to
>>Liverpool!
>
>All the way to Liverpool! <checks map> It's 70 miles...

I was being lazy in my reply. I should have added that the ferry times
using Heysham are much more convenient, as we we can travel to and
from home comfortably the same days as the ferries.

--
Colin Irvine
R1250RS

[YTC#1]

Not exactly a trip for us "mid" northerners.
I'll be more likely to go on the push bike[1].

[1] Again

[YTC#1]

On 19/12/2023 09:32, Colin Irvine wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:52:44 +0000, Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:
>
>> On 18/12/2023 18:59, Champ wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 14:25:03 +0000, Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Going via Heysham would probably be more convenient for us proper
>>>> northerners.
>>>
>>> <sucks teeth>
>>> That option *could* be provided, but I'm trying to save myself work by
>>> keeping things simple
>>
>> Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to book it myself, unless you're managing
>> to negotiate a massive discount with the block booking from Liverpool.
>
> No discount would be enough to make us travel all the way to
> Liverpool!

Good sentiment.

[Ben Blaney]

On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 8:54:38 AM UTC-5, Champ wrote:

> Lemme know what you think

Tempted. Specially if you have a bike of mine at your place. But it's a bit close to my kids' birthday. Plus I'm still not giving up on the idea of tomfoolery with Hargreaves.

[Tim]

On 17/12/2023 13:54, Champ wrote:

> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
> really taking the piss. We're going...
>
> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
> (if you want to, of course)
>

[snip]

> Lemme know what you think

Very tempting idea.

[PipL]

On 17/12/2023 13:54, Champ wrote:

> So the bottom line is min £240 to get there and have a bed for two
> nights. Are people interested?
> Unlike previous French trips, there's a local (me) who will be happy
> to act a guide :-) Not sure if that's much of a selling point...
>
> Lemme know what you think

Tempted - only been to the Island once.

--
Pip

CHUMP #1
(CHarge Up MuPpet)

[Pete Fisher]

On 21/12/2023 22:20, PipL wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 13:54, Champ wrote:
>> So the bottom line is min £240 to get there and have a bed for two
>> nights.   Are people interested?
>> Unlike previous French trips, there's a local (me) who will be happy
>> to act a guide :-)  Not sure if that's much of a selling point...
>>
>> Lemme know what you think
>
>
> Tempted - only been to the Island once.
>

For the TT or MGP, or perhaps Southern 100?

It's a very different place when there is no bike racing on. Even the
cuisine has improved in recent years, with a couple of 'celebrity chef'
restaurants in Douglas. Last time I was there we though that Paparazzi's
wasn't as good as we remembered, but our homestay host recommended a
pasta and pizza place turned out to be pretty good.

A wonderful, magic, place though. I've been going on and off since 1971
and there are still little nooks I haven't visited.

I have gone so far as ordering some Aliexpress pannier supports for the
401. Just alloy plates that will stop my venerable Oxford throw over
bags from swinging in to the rear wheel spokes. They get reasonable
feedback on the FB group.

So, I suppose, that upgrades my status from possible to firmly pencilled in.

[chrisnd @ukrm]

On 21/12/2023 22:20, PipL wrote:

> On 17/12/2023 13:54, Champ wrote:
>> So the bottom line is min £240 to get there and have a bed for two
>> nights.   Are people interested?
>> Unlike previous French trips, there's a local (me) who will be happy
>> to act a guide :-)  Not sure if that's much of a selling point...
>>
>> Lemme know what you think
>
>
> Tempted - only been to the Island once.
>

As Pete Fisher has said separately, there really is so much to see. I
would really like to go again but can't commit at the moment.

So far 'done' the TT, Southern 100, walked round the whole island[1],
walked across it in a couple of different ways[2], tracked down* lots of
railways, museums, waterfalls, wheels, errmmm...

And on the second day....

HTH

Chris
[1] See here https://www.deuchars.org.uk/iom/index.htm
[2] Millenium Way - still to do sometime.
* Its a pun - ok?
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

[PipL]

On 22/12/2023 07:23, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 21/12/2023 22:20, PipL wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 13:54, Champ wrote:
>>> So the bottom line is min £240 to get there and have a bed for two
>>> nights.   Are people interested?
>>> Unlike previous French trips, there's a local (me) who will be happy
>>> to act a guide :-)  Not sure if that's much of a selling point...
>>>
>>> Lemme know what you think
>>
>>
>> Tempted - only been to the Island once.
>>
>
> For the TT or MGP, or perhaps Southern 100?

Long weekend for the last of the practice / first race day of the MGP.
Actually, it might have been the very last "MGP", actually.

>
> It's a very different place when there is no bike racing on. Even the
> cuisine has improved in recent years, with a couple of 'celebrity chef'
> restaurants in Douglas. Last time I was there we though that Paparazzi's
> wasn't as good as we remembered, but our homestay host recommended a
> pasta and pizza place turned out to be pretty good.

I'm not a foodie and have even eaten in McDonalds. In France, anyway.
Come to think of it, last year on the road, one of my evening meals
consisted of two cups of soup from a machine and some left over cheese
and other odds that I had packed.

> A wonderful, magic, place though. I've been going on and off since 1971
> and there are still little nooks I haven't visited.

I was staying in a small hotel opposite the airport.

I visited Douglas, the big water wheel and a disused mine - between
riding the course a few times. Glad they issued helmets at the mine: my
head hit a projecting object in the low roof with some force!

[Turby]

On 12/21/2023 2:20 PM, PipL wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 13:54, Champ wrote:
>> So the bottom line is min £240 to get there and have a bed for two
>> nights.   Are people interested?
>> Unlike previous French trips, there's a local (me) who will be happy
>> to act a guide :-)  Not sure if that's much of a selling point...
>>
>> Lemme know what you think
>
> Tempted - only been to the Island once.
>

Same here. Holy cow, it was 10 years ago! Had a great time, thanks to Neal.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/albums/72157634913399071/

[TMack]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 13:54:35 +0000, Champ wrote:

> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
> really taking the piss. We're going...
>
> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
> (if you want to, of course)
>

We want to! Put me and Helen on the list please.

--
Tony
FJR1300, Suzuki ST400, BSA Bantams x2.5, BSA C11,

[Pete Fisher]

On 22/12/2023 18:21, PipL wrote:
> On 22/12/2023 07:23, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 21/12/2023 22:20, PipL wrote:

>>
>> It's a very different place when there is no bike racing on. Even the
>> cuisine has improved in recent years, with a couple of 'celebrity
>> chef' restaurants in Douglas. Last time I was there we though that
>> Paparazzi's wasn't as good as we remembered, but our homestay host
>> recommended a pasta and pizza place turned out to be pretty good.
>
> I'm not a foodie and have even eaten in McDonalds. In France, anyway.
> Come to think of it, last year on the road, one of my evening meals
> consisted of two cups of soup from a machine and some left over cheese
> and other odds that I had packed.

I'm not a gastronome but there are occasions when I wish to dine on
something other than burger and chips. Not so much the quality perhaps,
as the availability. Even during race weeks some of the pubs stop
serving food much earlier than other areas of these isles. It can be a
particular issue if staying out in the sticks.

>
>> A wonderful, magic, place though. I've been going on and off since
>> 1971 and there are still little nooks I haven't visited.
>
> I was staying in a small hotel opposite the airport.
>
> I visited Douglas, the big water wheel and a disused mine - between
> riding the course a few times. Glad they issued helmets at the mine: my
> head hit a projecting object in the low roof with some force!
>
>

On the last few trips I've spent less and less time riding on the course
as it became ever more manic. Some great roads more suited to SOBs and
not rocket ships in the south of the island. 'The Sloc' is one to
definitely get a tick in the book for.

[chrisnd @ukrm]

On 22/12/2023 18:21, PipL wrote:
>

> I visited Douglas, the big water wheel and a disused mine - between
> riding the course a few times. Glad they issued helmets at the mine: my
> head hit a projecting object in the low roof with some force!

Been down that mine - and lots of others over the UK. I have a
particular fascination for underground canals - not ordinary canals with
tunnels but where canals were specifically built underground for the
extraction of minerals. One such is the Speedwell Mine in Derbyshire
below Mam Tor.* In the boat in front of us was a youngish couple with an
infant. On the way back the child started to act up. The parents
reaction was "Oh dear he doesn't like wearing a safety helmet" and took
it off. Unbeknown to the parents the child's head then made contact
with a low bit of the roof. It yelled much louder and started
screaming. Oblivious parent said "It's ok, we'll be out soon...".

Words failed me..

Chris
*It's the only one, so far as I know of, with public access.

[Pete Fisher]

You must have done the Dudley limestone workings and cavern then?

[PipL]

On 23/12/2023 16:15, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:

> On 22/12/2023 18:21, PipL wrote:
>>
>> I visited Douglas, the big water wheel and a disused mine - between
>> riding the course a few times. Glad they issued helmets at the mine:
>> my head hit a projecting object in the low roof with some force!
>
> Been down that mine - and lots of others over the UK. I have a
> particular fascination for underground canals - not ordinary canals with
> tunnels but where canals were specifically built underground for the
> extraction of minerals.  One such is the Speedwell Mine in Derbyshire

Think I've been down that one as a young child - they turned off the
lights for a few seconds as part of the experience - I was very
frightened. The kid opposite had some sort of pendant that lit up when a
cord was pulled: I focused on that.

ISTR at the far end of the canal is an open space where mining finished,
and past a railing, the canal pours down... down. Deep down (I think
there's a lyric in there somewhere).

I both love the cool damp smell, the environment, and am terrified of
deep caves in equal measure.

[Champ]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 07:39:48 +0000, Pete Fisher
<pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> ...- between riding the course a few times.

>On the last few trips I've spent less and less time riding on the course
>as it became ever more manic.

Riding the TT Course during the actual TT is dead now - there's
temporary speed limits covering *everything* except the mountain
section. I always say that 25 year-old me wouldn't bother coming to
the TT nowadays - all we used to do back then was lap the course.

But, away from racing, it's still game on :-)

[Champ]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 15:00:17 +0000, "chrisnd @ukrm"
<chr...@privacy.net> wrote:

>So far 'done' the TT, Southern 100, walked round the whole island[1],
>walked across it in a couple of different ways[2],

*Impressed*
I've lived here 5 years and haven't done either of those walks yet!
We plan to do the Raad ny Foillan in 2024

[Champ]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 10:54:58 -0800, Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:

>> Tempted - only been to the Island once.

>Same here. Holy cow, it was 10 years ago! Had a great time, thanks to Neal.
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/albums/72157634913399071/

I'd forgotten how great your photos are!

Especially these ones
https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432130516/in/album-72157634913399071/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432120210/in/album-72157634913399071/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432119436/in/album-72157634913399071/

:-)

[geoffC]

On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 10:54:58 -0800, Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Tempted - only been to the Island once.
>
>>Same here. Holy cow, it was 10 years ago! Had a great time, thanks to Neal.
>>https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/albums/72157634913399071/
>
>I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>
>Especially these ones
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432130516/in/album-72157634913399071/
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432120210/in/album-72157634913399071/
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432119436/in/album-72157634913399071/
>
>:-)

Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/


--
Geoff
NTV 650

[YTC#1]

On 24/12/2023 11:58, Champ wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 15:00:17 +0000, "chrisnd @ukrm"
> <chr...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> So far 'done' the TT, Southern 100, walked round the whole island[1],
>> walked across it in a couple of different ways[2],
>
> *Impressed*
> I've lived here 5 years and haven't done either of those walks yet!
> We plan to do the Raad ny Foillan in 2024

Oh,Jeez, please, no one tell Jean there is *another* long distance path
for her to do!

[chrisnd @ukrm]

On 23/12/2023 17:42, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 23/12/2023 16:15, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>> On 22/12/2023 18:21, PipL wrote:
>>>
>>> I visited Douglas, the big water wheel and a disused mine - between
>>> riding the course a few times. Glad they issued helmets at the mine:
>>> my head hit a projecting object in the low roof with some force!
>>
>> Been down that mine - and lots of others over the UK. I have a
>> particular fascination for underground canals - not ordinary canals
>> with tunnels but where canals were specifically built underground for
>> the extraction of minerals.  One such is the Speedwell Mine in
>> Derbyshire below Mam Tor.* In the boat in front of us was a youngish
>> couple with an infant.  On the way back the child started to act up.
>> The parents reaction was "Oh dear he doesn't like wearing a safety
>> helmet" and took it off.  Unbeknown to the parents the child's head
>> then made contact with a low bit of the roof.  It yelled much louder
>> and started screaming.  Oblivious parent said "It's ok, we'll be out
>> soon...".
>>
>> Words failed me..
>>
>> Chris
>> *It's the only one, so far as I know of, with public access.
>
>
> You must have done the Dudley limestone workings and cavern then?
>

Yes indeed - but they are mainly connected to the main canal system and
were developed when the main through tunnel was built. They weren't
built in isolation - which is what I was thinking of.

I think the Wrens Nest tunnel (currently 'closed off' in castle Mill
Basin) might have been an exception though until the other tunnels
joined it? I shall have to check that out. I did once find a hole in
the ground on the west side of the hill which I thought might have been
an original shaft down to the Wrens nest tunnel.

All absolutely fascinating.

Chris D

[chrisnd @ukrm]

That sounds like the place. I also agree with your final paragraph - but
I like coal mines as well - generally warm and dry!

When I was living in Worksop in my teens. We were all sent 'darn t'pit'
for a school outing - mainly on the basis that many of the local kids
would end up working there - either below or, more likely, above ground
(we were a grammar school after all! :-))

Fascinating again. I've never forgotten it - both the incredibly rapid
descent and the heat and dust. The site is now an RDC for B&Q to which
I have since driven an artic. WTF?

Chris

[chrisnd @ukrm]

On 24/12/2023 11:58, Champ wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 15:00:17 +0000, "chrisnd @ukrm"
> <chr...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> So far 'done' the TT, Southern 100, walked round the whole island[1],
>> walked across it in a couple of different ways[2],
>
> *Impressed*
> I've lived here 5 years and haven't done either of those walks yet!
> We plan to do the Raad ny Foillan in 2024

<bows> I thank you.
It took us years tho!
Enjoy - there are just so many 'Wow' moments to be had on the island.

Chris

[Alan Lee]

On 24/12/2023 13:14, YTC#1 wrote:
>>> So far 'done' the TT, Southern 100, walked round the whole island[1],
>>> walked across it in a couple of different ways[2],
>>
>> *Impressed*
>> I've lived here 5 years and haven't done either of those walks yet!
>> We plan to do the Raad ny Foillan in 2024
>
> Oh,Jeez, please, no one tell Jean there is *another* long distance path
> for her to do!

The Annandale Way is a good one.
Not too large a distance ~90km, lovely scenery, and not too far from
you. Can be done on a (pedal) bike for the most of the way too.

<https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/an-annandale-way-ambulation>

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

[Turby]

On 12/24/2023 3:56 AM, Champ wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 07:39:48 +0000, Pete Fisher
> <pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> ...- between riding the course a few times.
>
>> On the last few trips I've spent less and less time riding on the course
>> as it became ever more manic.
>
> Riding the TT Course during the actual TT is dead now - there's
> temporary speed limits covering *everything* except the mountain
> section. I always say that 25 year-old me wouldn't bother coming to
> the TT nowadays - all we used to do back then was lap the course.
>

:(
What a shame.

> But, away from racing, it's still game on :-)

Worth being a tourist, for sure.

[Ace]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:

>On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:

>>I'd forgotten how great your photos are!

>Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/

Je sais exactement quoi!
--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

[Turby]

On 12/25/2023 2:58 AM, Ace wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>
>> On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>
>>> I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>
>> Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/
>
> Je sais exactement quoi!

FWIW, I have no idea who she is. She was with a guy, she never told me
her name, and we just hit it off. For about 10 minutes. that's a Heysham
ferry for you.

[YTC#1]

Is it his rock star looks ?

[YTC#1]

On 25/12/2023 19:56, Turby wrote:
> On 12/25/2023 2:58 AM, Ace wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>>
>>>> I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>>
>>> Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>
>> Je sais exactement quoi!
>
> FWIW, I have no idea who she is. She was with a guy, she never told me
> her name, and we just hit it off. For about 10 minutes. that's a Heysham
> ferry for you.
>
>

That was her pimp.

[chrisnd @ukrm]

On 26/12/2023 17:31, YTC#1 wrote:
>On 25/12/2023 19:56, Turby wrote:
>> On 12/25/2023 2:58 AM, Ace wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>>>
>>>> Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>>
>>> Je sais exactement quoi!
>>
>> FWIW, I have no idea who she is. She was with a guy, she never told me
>> her name, and we just hit it off. For about 10 minutes. that's a Heysham
>> ferry for you.
>>
>>
>That was her pimp.

Hehe

Chris

--
XV750SE & GS550T

[geoffC]

On 26/12/2023 17:31, YTC#1 wrote:

>On 25/12/2023 19:56, Turby wrote:
>> On 12/25/2023 2:58 AM, Ace wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>>>
>>>> Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>>
>>> Je sais exactement quoi!
>>
>> FWIW, I have no idea who she is. She was with a guy, she never told me
>> her name, and we just hit it off. For about 10 minutes. that's a Heysham
>> ferry for you.
>>
>>
>That was her pimp.

I think "Controller" is the term normally used in "The Trade" at least the
one I was thinking of :-).

--
Geoff
NTV 650

[Turby]

On 12/26/2023 9:31 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 24/12/2023 12:31, geoffC wrote:
>> On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 10:54:58 -0800, Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Tempted - only been to the Island once.
>>>
>>>> Same here. Holy cow, it was 10 years ago! Had a great time, thanks
>>>> to Neal.
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/albums/72157634913399071/
>>>
>>> I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>>> Especially these ones
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432130516/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432120210/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432119436/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>>
>> Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>
>>
> Is it his rock star looks ?
>

Nah. My American accent.

[Turby]

On 12/26/2023 9:31 AM, YTC#1 wrote:

> On 25/12/2023 19:56, Turby wrote:
>> On 12/25/2023 2:58 AM, Ace wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>>>
>>>> Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>>
>>> Je sais exactement quoi!
>>
>> FWIW, I have no idea who she is. She was with a guy, she never told me
>> her name, and we just hit it off. For about 10 minutes. that's a
>> Heysham ferry for you.
>>
>>
> That was her pimp.
>

I think her husband. (Same diff.)

[Champ]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 11:58:12 +0100, Ace <A...@ch.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>
>>On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>
>>>I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>
>>Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>
>>https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/

>Je sais exactement quoi!

heh

[Mike Fleming]

On 26/12/2023 17:31, YTC#1 wrote:

> On 25/12/2023 19:56, Turby wrote:
>> On 12/25/2023 2:58 AM, Ace wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:31:59 -0000 (UTC), geoffC <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/12/2023 13:02, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'd forgotten how great your photos are!
>>>
>>>> Yes they do have a certain "je ne sais quoi" don't they. :-)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/turbster/9432123076/in/album-72157634913399071/
>>>
>>> Je sais exactement quoi!
>>
>> FWIW, I have no idea who she is. She was with a guy, she never told me
>> her name, and we just hit it off. For about 10 minutes. that's a
>> Heysham ferry for you.
>>
>>
> That was her pimp.

Remembering Fenchurch in the HHGTTG canon, maybe her child is called
Heysham.

[Champ]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 13:54:35 +0000, Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
>times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
>really taking the piss. We're going...
>
>...to the Isle of Man :-)
>(if you want to, of course)

Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to. Have had less
than half the number of expressions of interest needed to make this
viable, or even much fun, I'm afraid.

If there's a late rush following this post, then may reconsider

I will post a similar update in the Other Place

[wessie]

Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:tk7ssidt6ad2dvjie2cligufe76kmgvbrn@
4ax.com:

> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 13:54:35 +0000, Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
>>times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
>>really taking the piss. We're going...
>>
>>...to the Isle of Man :-)
>>(if you want to, of course)
>
> Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to. Have had less
> than half the number of expressions of interest needed to make this
> viable, or even much fun, I'm afraid.
>
> If there's a late rush following this post, then may reconsider
>
> I will post a similar update in the Other Place

soz

going to Alsace, Bavaria, Tirol, Mosel and Ardennes this year

we will go through the Hahntenjoch, last visited by UKRM in 2011. Since
when, they have introduced a 95dBA noise limit. My BMW R1200RS just scrapes
in. The S1000XR is over in standard trim.

[Alan Lee]

On 15/02/2024 14:26, Champ wrote:
>> ...to the Isle of Man 🙂

>> (if you want to, of course)
> Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to.

Sorry, we are there 3.5 weeks later, so thought it's not prudent to
visit twice in a month, especially as we're watching the cash flow at
the moment while we build our house.
Alan, and thanks for trying.

[Pete Fisher]

On 15/02/2024 3:26 pm, Champ wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 13:54:35 +0000, Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
>>times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
>>really taking the piss. We're going...
>>
>>...to the Isle of Man :-)
>>(if you want to, of course)
>
>Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to. Have had less
>than half the number of expressions of interest needed to make this
>viable, or even much fun, I'm afraid.
>
>If there's a late rush following this post, then may reconsider
>
>I will post a similar update in the Other Place

Oh well. Looks like I won't get a trip to pahnd island until MGP 2025 to
celebrate the Morini Riders Club 50th anniversary then


--
Huh

[Tim]

On 15/02/2024 14:26, Champ wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 13:54:35 +0000, Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> The venerabe UKRM trip overseas in early May has been misnamed several
>> times, when, for example, we've been to Belgium. But next year is
>> really taking the piss. We're going...
>>
>> ...to the Isle of Man :-)
>> (if you want to, of course)
>
> Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to. Have had less
> than half the number of expressions of interest needed to make this
> viable, or even much fun, I'm afraid.
>

I would have liked to be on the run but I've got a trip to the Faroe
Islands about the same time and trying to do both is a non-starter.

[Ben Blaney]

On Feb 15, 2024 at 9:26:30 AM EST, "Champ" <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to. H

I did want to. but the logistics for me are fairly complex, and the date
floated didn't work.

Last year, I seriously contemplated buying another motorbike in a country I
don't live in so I could do the Tog Tour. That was a stupid idea, and I'm
grateful that I was talked out of it.

[Turby]

On 2/17/2024 4:50 PM, Ben Blaney wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2024 at 9:26:30 AM EST, "Champ" <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to. H
>
> I did want to.

I really want to. But I don't have a bike in Europe any more. (sniff
sniff, wipes tears.)

>
> Last year, I seriously contemplated buying another motorbike in a country I
> don't live in so I could do the Tog Tour. That was a stupid idea, and I'm
> grateful that I was talked out of it.

Buying the BMW in Germany was one of the best things I've ever done. For
11 years I rode that thing, going from one corner of Europe to another.
I loved doing it, had incredible experiences, and I really miss it.


--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300 #2, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

[Mark Olson]

I've had the same idea, more or less. And I'm a bit regretful that
I didn't act on it.

It might be stupid but you only go round once.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

[Champ]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 04:12:53 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson
<ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:

>It might be stupid but you only go round once.

<applause>

As someone once said [1], it's better to regret the things you did
than the things you didn't do

[1] according to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, it was the Butt Hole
Surfers

[Turby]

Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but that's
true in all of life. I don't understand why more people don't ride
motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more efficient, you
can park almost anywhere, quicker through traffic, and more fun. You
have to learn more, and be a better driver/rider, but that's a positive.

In almost 60 years of riding, and ~1/2 million miles in so many
different countries, the number of stupid things I've done on or around
motorcycles is minuscule.


--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

[PipL]

On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
> In almost 60 years of riding, and ~1/2 million miles in so many
> different countries, the number of stupid things I've done on or around
> motorcycles is minuscule.

Not *completely* certain I can say the same.

--

CHUMP #1 (CHarge Up Muppet)

Pip

[wessie]

PipL <p...@nowhere.nul> wrote in news:l3hmfl...@mid.individual.net:

> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>> In almost 60 years of riding, and ~1/2 million miles in so many
>> different countries, the number of stupid things I've done on or around
>> motorcycles is minuscule.
>
> Not *completely* certain I can say the same.
>

do you have something to declare?

[Turby]

On 2/19/2024 10:54 AM, PipL wrote:
> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>> In almost 60 years of riding, and ~1/2 million miles in so many
>> different countries, the number of stupid things I've done on or
>> around motorcycles is minuscule.
>
> Not *completely* certain I can say the same.
>

The definition of "stupid things" might be debatable.

[PipL]

<follows green channel, whistling nonchalantly>

[YTC#1]

On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:

> On 2/18/2024 8:12 PM, Mark Olson wrote:
>> Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/17/2024 4:50 PM, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>>> On Feb 15, 2024 at 9:26:30 AM EST, "Champ" <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out that actually, not enough of you did want to.  H
>>>>
>>>> I did want to.
>>>
>>> I really want to. But I don't have a bike in Europe any more. (sniff
>>> sniff, wipes tears.)
>>>>
>>>> Last year, I seriously contemplated buying another motorbike in a
>>>> country I
>>>> don't live in so I could do the Tog Tour. That was a stupid idea,
>>>> and I'm
>>>> grateful that I was talked out of it.
>>>
>>> Buying the BMW in Germany was one of the best things I've ever done. For
>>> 11 years I rode that thing, going from one corner of Europe to another.
>>> I loved doing it, had incredible experiences, and I really miss it.
>>
>> I've had the same idea, more or less. And I'm a bit regretful that
>> I didn't act on it.
>>
>> It might be stupid but you only go round once.
>>
> Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but that's
> true in all of life. I don't understand why more people don't ride
> motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more efficient, you

Due to low tyre mileage and cost, plus more frequent oil changes I find
it hard to agree that they are better ecologically.

> can park almost anywhere, quicker through traffic, and more fun. You

But everything elae, yeah :-)

> have to learn more, and be a better driver/rider, but that's a positive.
>

<snip>

the number of stupid things I've done on or around
> motorcycles is minuscule.

The inverse of that could well be true for me.

[wessie]

YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur1p0p$2dpju$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:

>> Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but
>> that's true in all of life. I don't understand why more people don't
>> ride motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more
>> efficient, you
>
> Due to low tyre mileage and cost, plus more frequent oil changes I
> find it hard to agree that they are better ecologically.
>

what about the carbon footprint before the bike has left a factory compared
to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?

many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
purchase, especially with an EV.

[Champ]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 18:54:45 +0000, PipL <p...@nowhere.nul> wrote:

>On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>> In almost 60 years of riding, and ~1/2 million miles in so many
>> different countries, the number of stupid things I've done on or around
>> motorcycles is minuscule.

>Not *completely* certain I can say the same.

I'm damn sure I can't say the same!

In fact, I'd turn it around and say, nearing 50 years of riding, and
lord knows how many miles, *most* of the stupid things I've done have
involved motorcycles.

Oh, and women, I suppose

Motorcycles and women. Sometimes both together

[YTC#1]

On 20/02/2024 10:19, wessie wrote:
> YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur1p0p$2dpju$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>
>>> Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but
>>> that's true in all of life. I don't understand why more people don't
>>> ride motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more
>>> efficient, you
>>
>> Due to low tyre mileage and cost, plus more frequent oil changes I
>> find it hard to agree that they are better ecologically.
>>
>
> what about the carbon footprint before the bike has left a factory compared
> to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?

Always interested in the figures for that, if you have them?
As more cars are produced, I am sure it could be argued that for the
floorspace/power/etc they make better use of resources.

>
> many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
> purchase, especially with an EV.

As I seem to keep vehicles until they die (the MG may well be the
exception), even if/when I buy an EV it will have a good life/resource
use which should help the ecology side.

[wessie]

YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur2s34$2kt15$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 20/02/2024 10:19, wessie wrote:
>> YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur1p0p$2dpju$1...@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>>
>>>> Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but
>>>> that's true in all of life. I don't understand why more people
>>>> don't ride motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more
>>>> efficient, you
>>>
>>> Due to low tyre mileage and cost, plus more frequent oil changes I
>>> find it hard to agree that they are better ecologically.
>>>
>>
>> what about the carbon footprint before the bike has left a factory
>> compared to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
>
> Always interested in the figures for that, if you have them?
> As more cars are produced, I am sure it could be argued that for the
> floorspace/power/etc they make better use of resources.
>

I don't have the figures but I am not the one questioning Turby's claim
whilst not including one of the most significant factors in the debate.
I do have a gut feeling.

Economy of scale might reduce the unit cost in cash terms but 4 car
wheels take a lot more metal and energy to mould than 2 flimsier bike
wheels. Then look at the volume of plastic in a car compared to a bike,
exterior and especially interior. A Ford Fiesta weighs over a tonne more
than my bike.

[Turby]

On 2/20/2024 2:19 AM, wessie wrote:
> YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur1p0p$2dpju$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>
>>> Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but
>>> that's true in all of life. I don't understand why more people don't
>>> ride motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more
>>> efficient, you
>>
>> Due to low tyre mileage and cost, plus more frequent oil changes I
>> find it hard to agree that they are better ecologically.
>>

Half the tyres, 2/3 the oil, far better fuel mileage - the difference is
minimal compared to the bulk of manufacturing.

>
> what about the carbon footprint before the bike has left a factory compared
> to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
>
> many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
> purchase, especially with an EV.

Seriously. You're talking about thousands of pounds of raw materials,
being processed through factories. And the effect all that weight has on
roads, causing potholes, etc.

Then there are the hours spent idling through traffic and looking for
parking spaces, while a motorcycle quickly filters through and parks up
front. I can spend twice the time getting to the cafe in my truck.

[PipL]

On 20/02/2024 21:01, Turby wrote:
> On 2/20/2024 2:19 AM, wessie wrote:>> what about the carbon footprint

before the bike has left a factory
>> compared
>> to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
>>
>> many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
>> purchase, especially with an EV.

Up front carbon cost of an EV is high, but one voice at least, the
Argonne National Laboratory in the States, which one would hope has no
axe to grind either way, estimates somewhere around 15K miles to break
even for a mid-range EV on the US generator mix. One fascinating figure
they came up with is that EVs could theoretically break even at around
80K miles, even if the electricity were entirely generated from coal.
This because they're massively more efficient than ICE vehicles.

I'm still hoping that there's a future for hydrogen fuel cells, mind.
I've never liked batteries, which may seem odd coming from me.

> Seriously. You're talking about thousands of pounds of raw materials,
> being processed through factories. And the effect all that weight has on
> roads, causing potholes, etc.

Road damage is an interesting one.

> Then there are the hours spent idling through traffic and looking for
> parking spaces, while a motorcycle quickly filters through and parks up
> front. I can spend twice the time getting to the cafe in my truck.

I'm probably in a minority, but my commute, in winter, is probably
quicker by car, even though I drive slower than I ride. All the winter
kit plus getting the bike out of and back into the garage makes quite a
difference. Obviously if there's an incident or roadworks then that changes.

[Turby]

On 2/20/2024 2:40 PM, PipL wrote:
> On 20/02/2024 21:01, Turby wrote:
> > On 2/20/2024 2:19 AM, wessie wrote:>> what about the carbon footprint
> before the bike has left a factory
> >> compared
> >> to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
> >>
> >> many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
> >> purchase, especially with an EV.
>
> Up front carbon cost of an EV is high, but one voice at least, the
> Argonne National Laboratory in the States, which one would hope has no
> axe to grind either way, estimates somewhere around 15K miles to break
> even for a mid-range EV on the US generator mix. One fascinating figure
> they came up with is that EVs could theoretically break even at around
> 80K miles, even if the electricity were entirely generated from coal.
> This because they're massively more efficient than ICE vehicles.
>
> I'm still hoping that there's a future for hydrogen fuel cells, mind.
> I've never liked batteries, which may seem odd coming from me.
>

I'd love to get an electric motorcycle, but AFAIK, there aren't any that
work as tourers. I haven't seen any with panniers, either. And if I get
one for local rides, I need to carry groceries, beach gear, and be able
to lock up my helmet and jacket.

>
> I'm probably in a minority, but my commute, in winter, is probably
> quicker by car,

Winter? What's that? (He says, from SoCal.)

[YTC#1]

On 20/02/2024 19:30, wessie wrote:
> YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur2s34$2kt15$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 20/02/2024 10:19, wessie wrote:
>>> YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur1p0p$2dpju$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but
>>>>> that's true in all of life. I don't understand why more people
>>>>> don't ride motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more
>>>>> efficient, you
>>>>
>>>> Due to low tyre mileage and cost, plus more frequent oil changes I
>>>> find it hard to agree that they are better ecologically.
>>>>
>>>
>>> what about the carbon footprint before the bike has left a factory
>>> compared to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
>>
>> Always interested in the figures for that, if you have them?
>> As more cars are produced, I am sure it could be argued that for the
>> floorspace/power/etc they make better use of resources.
>>
>
> I don't have the figures but I am not the one questioning Turby's claim

Your you responded in support.

> whilst not including one of the most significant factors in the debate.
> I do have a gut feeling.

We all have gut feelings :-)

And sometimes they can lead us astray. Often why someone states X, I
like to see if that is fact or maybe Y is the answer[1]

For example the old adage "load pipes save lives"[2], countered with
"and fucking piss people off" :-)

>
> Economy of scale might reduce the unit cost in cash terms but 4 car
> wheels take a lot more metal and energy to mould than 2 flimsier bike

being flimsier, do they require more repairs?

> wheels. Then look at the volume of plastic in a car compared to a bike,
> exterior and especially interior. A Ford Fiesta weighs over a tonne more
> than my bike.

And your bike is probaby better looking than a Fiesta.
>

[1] Which people often mistake as me being argumentative for the sake of it.
[2] But do they really?

[YTC#1]

On 20/02/2024 21:01, Turby wrote:

> On 2/20/2024 2:19 AM, wessie wrote:
>> YTC#1 <yt...@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:ur1p0p$2dpju$1...@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>>
>>>> Stupid? I don't get that. Yes, you have to learn new stuff, but
>>>> that's true in all of life. I don't understand why more people don't
>>>> ride motorcycles. They're cheaper, better ecologically, more
>>>> efficient, you
>>>
>>> Due to low tyre mileage and cost, plus more frequent oil changes I
>>> find it hard to agree that they are better ecologically.
>>>
> Half the tyres, 2/3 the oil, far better fuel mileage - the difference is
> minimal compared to the bulk of manufacturing.
>

Ok, take my XJR. Rear tyre 7000 miles. Cost to fit £140+ [1]
Car 1 tyre 20,000+ miles, cost to fit £70

2x car tyres= 20k miles= £140
2x bike rear tyre = £280

4 x car = 20k = £280
4 x bike (rear) =28k = £560 |= £800
2 x bike (front) =26k = £240 |

Sorry, that does not add up.

XJR does between 28mpg and 40mpg. Avg is 30mph
Car does between 32mpg and 40mpg. Avg is 37mpg
Even the MX used to do 35+mpg


XJR oil change every 4-5k miles at £30+
Car oil change 20k miles at £50

Even a 10k car oil change still works out cheaper.

>>
>> what about the carbon footprint before the bike has left a factory
>> compared
>> to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
>>
>> many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
>> purchase, especially with an EV.
>
> Seriously. You're talking about thousands of pounds of raw materials,

I think bikes are also thousands of pounds of raw material

> being processed through factories. And the effect all that weight has on
> roads, causing potholes, etc.

This is probably the biggest winner.

>
> Then there are the hours spent idling through traffic and looking for

I've commuted on the bike into cites, as yes the time factors are good.

> parking spaces, while a motorcycle quickly filters through and parks up

We are not so fortunate with spaces, not everywhere supplies them and
they are often in dodgy places. I, like others will park on the
pavement, but have to be careful over where it is placed so as not to
cause an obstruction.

> front. I can spend twice the time getting to the cafe in my truck.

Time can be a saving, although have to take into account putting gear on
and off (oh and the cost of decent gear :-))
>

[1] Been a while, may cost more now.

[Boots]

On 20/02/2024 18:19 wessie penned these words:

> what about the carbon footprint before the bike has left a factory compared
> to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
>
> many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
> purchase, especially with an EV.

Why for most people bangernomics is probably the least bad choice, eke a few
thousands of miles out of something headed for the scrappie.

From what I've read the time for a low mileage EV to reach the point where it is
less damaging than the equivalent ICE is 20+ years. That's a pretty long time to
assume *the majority of a model* is going to be still around.
--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

[Turby]

On 2/21/2024 2:52 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 20/02/2024 21:01, Turby wrote:
>>
>> Seriously. You're talking about thousands of pounds of raw materials,
> I think bikes are also thousands of pounds of raw material

What? My FJR weighs ~640lbs. My Dodge Ram weighs ~5000lbs.

[YTC#1]

On 21/02/2024 12:01, Turby wrote:
> On 2/21/2024 2:52 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
>> On 20/02/2024 21:01, Turby wrote:
>>>
>>> Seriously. You're talking about thousands of pounds of raw materials,
>> I think bikes are also thousands of pounds of raw material
>
> What? My FJR weighs ~640lbs. My Dodge Ram weighs ~5000lbs.
>
>

Bloody yanks.

ITHM £s :-)

[chrisnd @ukrm]

On 21/02/2024 10:28, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 20/02/2024 19:30, wessie wrote:
>> I do have a gut feeling.
>
> We all have gut feelings :-)
>
> And sometimes they can lead us astray. Often why someone states X, I
> like to see if that is fact or maybe Y is the answer[1]

Agreed. Looking at as much evidence as possible *and* going back as far
as possible to original documents, and research, may be time consuming
but it is the only way to express a considered opinion!*

> For example the old adage "load pipes save lives"[2], countered with
> "and fucking piss people off" :-)
>
>>
>> Economy of scale might reduce the unit cost in cash terms but 4 car
>> wheels take a lot more metal and energy to mould than 2 flimsier bike
>
> being flimsier, do they require more repairs?
>
>> wheels. Then look at the volume of plastic in a car compared to a bike,
>> exterior and especially interior. A Ford Fiesta weighs over a tonne more
>> than my bike.
> And your bike is probaby better looking than a Fiesta.
>
> [1] Which people often mistake as me being argumentative for the sake of
> it.
> [2] But do they really?

Re [2] Loud pipes certainly make people move out the way! IME anyway.

I am not a fan of them but I have gone above and beyond to make the XV
quieter. It just won't** and I now believe it simply wants to out-trump
the HDs. So be it.

Chris
*I admit I haven't always practised what I preach.
**The final straw was when the exhaust burped out my last attempt at
creative welding and muffler construction, at speed on the A50.

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

[Mark Olson]

PipL <p...@nowhere.nul> wrote:
> On 19/02/2024 16:09, Turby wrote:
>> In almost 60 years of riding, and ~1/2 million miles in so many
>> different countries, the number of stupid things I've done on or around
>> motorcycles is minuscule.
>
> Not *completely* certain I can say the same.

+1

But even so, most of the stupid stuff is still a great memory (time
heals a lot).

[PipL]

On 20/02/2024 23:36, Turby wrote:
> On 2/20/2024 2:40 PM, PipL wrote:
>> On 20/02/2024 21:01, Turby wrote:
>>  > On 2/20/2024 2:19 AM, wessie wrote:>> what about the carbon
>> footprint before the bike has left a factory
>>  >> compared
>>  >> to a car, amortised over the life of the vehicle?
>>  >>
>>  >> many people ignore this factor when rationalising about a new vehicle
>>  >> purchase, especially with an EV.
>>
>> Up front carbon cost of an EV is high, but one voice at least, the
>> Argonne National Laboratory in the States, which one would hope has no
>> axe to grind either way, estimates somewhere around 15K miles to break
>> even for a mid-range EV on the US generator mix. One fascinating
>> figure they came up with is that EVs could theoretically break even at
>> around 80K miles, even if the electricity were entirely generated from
>> coal. This because they're massively more efficient than ICE vehicles.
>>
>> I'm still hoping that there's a future for hydrogen fuel cells, mind.
>> I've never liked batteries, which may seem odd coming from me.
>>
>
> I'd love to get an electric motorcycle, but AFAIK, there aren't any that
> work as tourers.
> I haven't seen any with panniers, either. And if I get
> one for local rides, I need to carry groceries, beach gear, and be
> able to lock up my helmet and jacket.

Energica do a sort of GS-style thing, but it's not a realistic tourer.
It does have panniers. My Eva has panniers too, but they're quite small
soft cases, though they can be expanded a bit. Expensive bike for a
shopping trolley.

>>
>> I'm probably in a minority, but my commute, in winter, is probably
>> quicker by car,
>
> Winter? What's that? (He says, from SoCal.)

Ha. Ha.

At least there's winter holidays abroad in the white stuff. Here in East
Blighty it's grey, windy, chilly and the roads are covered in muddy cack.

[YTC#1]

On 21/02/2024 13:10, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 21/02/2024 12:01, Turby wrote:
>> On 2/21/2024 2:52 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2024 21:01, Turby wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Seriously. You're talking about thousands of pounds of raw materials,
>>> I think bikes are also thousands of pounds of raw material
>>
>> What? My FJR weighs ~640lbs. My Dodge Ram weighs ~5000lbs.
>>
>>
> Bloody yanks.
>
> ITHM £s :-)
>

Although,on reflection he may have meant weight. Bit then I would have
expected ton(ne)s