BR locomotive frames
Nigel White
(not Railmatch), I see that the inside faces of [steam] locomotive
frames should be painted signal red in the early BR (1948-196?)
period. Would this apply to frames on tenders, and even diesel and
electric locomotives?
Does anyone know why signal red was chosen (the same as buffer beams)?
An inheritance of Great Western practice, perhaps?
--
Nigel White
<nwhite at robots dot ox dot ac dot uk>
Jim Guthrie
wrote:
Nigel,
>According to the catalogue of a certain model railway paint supplier
>(not Railmatch), I see that the inside faces of [steam] locomotive
>frames should be painted signal red in the early BR (1948-196?)
>period.
I think it was done to make the inspection of frames easier when
looking for cracks. In his book on Standard locos, E.S.Cox makes
particular mention of the worries over cracked frames, and they
seriously considered using the American style bar frame to avoid the
problem. The lack of enough suitable machinery at the construction
sites stopped this development since it would have caused a bottleneck
in the production lines.
>Would this apply to frames on tenders, and even diesel and
>electric locomotives?
The cracking was really only a problem on steam locomotive chassis
with the racking strains set up by the large reciprocating forces
present under load. Tender frames and electric and diesel
locomotive frames would not be subject to the same stresses, and
checking for cracks would not be as important a matter. So I doubt if
they would have been painted for that purpose. But someone might
came up with the proof that they were painted for some other reason
:-)
>
>Does anyone know why signal red was chosen (the same as buffer beams)?
>An inheritance of Great Western practice, perhaps?
It could well have been because of Great Western practice. In the
same book by E.S.Cox, it is obvious that the design team at Swindon
were held in quite high regard, and they seemed to have a significant
input to the design and running of the standard classes.
Jim.
--
Jim Guthrie
S7 Dabbling at www.netcomuk.co.uk/~sprocket/index.html
Dick Ganderton
motion is there!! Perhaps painting it red is to make you aware of the
danger.
Nigel White wrote:
>
> According to the catalogue of a certain model railway paint supplier
> (not Railmatch), I see that the inside faces of [steam] locomotive
> frames should be painted signal red in the early BR (1948-196?)
> period. Would this apply to frames on tenders, and even diesel and
> electric locomotives?
>
> Does anyone know why signal red was chosen (the same as buffer beams)?
> An inheritance of Great Western practice, perhaps?
>
dave hill
White <nwh...@robots.ox.ac.uk> writes
>According to the catalogue of a certain model railway paint supplier
>(not Railmatch), I see that the inside faces of [steam] locomotive
>frames should be painted signal red in the early BR (1948-196?)
>period. Would this apply to frames on tenders, and even diesel and
>electric locomotives?
>
>Does anyone know why signal red was chosen (the same as buffer beams)?
>An inheritance of Great Western practice, perhaps?
>
which would be used on the outside frames for the loco ;anyway thats how
I interpret the colour chart for my paint for 5inch pacific loco thats
currently in construction.
--
dave hill
am...@my-deja.com
nwh...@robots.ox.ac.uk (Nigel White) wrote:
> According to the catalogue of a certain model railway paint supplier
> (not Railmatch), I see that the inside faces of [steam] locomotive
> frames should be painted signal red in the early BR (1948-196?)
> period. Would this apply to frames on tenders, and even diesel and
> electric locomotives?
>
except City of Truro in the early 1960's which had outside frames of
(AFAIR) Indian Red (almost brown). I rather doubt the *inside* of
frames would stay red very long on a steam engine in regular use! In BR
times, of course, labour became difficult to find and many cleaning
tasks were comparatively ignored even where visible. By the end steam
days maintenance standards had fallen so far that I doubt many cared
whether cracks were visible or not.
> Does anyone know why signal red was chosen (the same as buffer beams)?
> An inheritance of Great Western practice, perhaps?
>
Are you sure it wasn't red-oxide primer or red-lead paint? Many large
steel items were painted in this during construction and overpainted
pretty colours (or black) only where they would be seen. These reds are
perhaps nearer to pink than to signal red, so should show up pretty
clearly. Has anyone documentary or photographic evidence of internal
frame painting?
Anthony.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dick Ganderton
published by the HMRS. This states that "Buffer beams and casings, the
inside frames between the smokebox and firebox and the eccentric rods
and crank axle were red."
Colin Williams
> >(not Railmatch), I see that the inside faces of [steam] locomotive
> >frames should be painted signal red in the early BR (1948-196?)
> >period. Would this apply to frames on tenders, and even diesel and
> >electric locomotives?
> >
> >An inheritance of Great Western practice, perhaps?
> >
> which would be used on the outside frames for the loco ;anyway thats how
> I interpret the colour chart for my paint for 5inch pacific loco thats
> currently in construction.
> --
> dave hill
I worked in Crewe Locomotive Works from 1948 to 1952 and can confirm that
all loco frames were painted black inside and outside during that period.
Colin Williams
am...@my-deja.com
di...@graskop.demon.co.uk wrote:
> The definitive reference for GWR liveries is "Great Western Way"
> published by the HMRS. This states that "Buffer beams and casings, the
> inside frames between the smokebox and firebox and the eccentric rods
> and crank axle were red."
>
that mean:
a) ... were painted red and kept clean as a matter of pride;
b) ... were painted red when built and left to get dirty;
c) ... were listed on the drawing as supposed to be red but nobody took
much notice?
Oh, I suppose (c) is impossible - GWR cleaning and maintenance being
perfect!
Tony Clarke
am...@my-deja.com wrote in
>> Does anyone know why signal red was chosen (the same as buffer beams)?
>> An inheritance of Great Western practice, perhaps?
>>
>
>Are you sure it wasn't red-oxide primer or red-lead paint? Many large
>steel items were painted in this during construction and overpainted
>pretty colours (or black) only where they would be seen. These reds are
>perhaps nearer to pink than to signal red, so should show up pretty
>clearly. Has anyone documentary or photographic evidence of internal
>frame painting?
Not contemporaneous, but I have photos of a GW pannier tank (7760? or
9466?) at Tyseley museum in 1996 and the inside frames and motion are
definitely gloss buffer beam red - that's why I snapped it, since it was so
distinctive. I'm sure I've seen it inside other loco frames, and I can't
imagine that any preserved line would wantonly repaint something as fiddly
as inside motion unless they had sound prototype reasons for doing so.
I can't imagine that red was of any use in crack detection - a special
matt white or blue tends to be used in the pics I've seen of ultrasonic
testing, and you'd need a pale colour to identify the tell-tale shadows,
surely?
Tony Clarke
Dick Ganderton
modellers should have. Next time I go to Didcot I will look inside the
frames of their locos, but fully expect them to be painted red.
The colour of the outside of the frames varied depending on the period -
"Indian Red or purple brown" was one (?) colour used, as was "China Red"
in the "1897 variant".
Jim Guthrie
<TonyC...@careers.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
Tony,
> I can't imagine that red was of any use in crack detection - a special
>matt white or blue tends to be used in the pics I've seen of ultrasonic
>testing, and you'd need a pale colour to identify the tell-tale shadows,
>surely?
I was clutching at straws in trying to think up some reason as to why
they would want to paint the insides of frames on Standard classes :-)
I knew from reading Cox's book that they were very concerned about
cracked frames and thought that painting might have been a reason for
checking this, but I have to confess that I didn't think that red was
the best colour.
I wonder if it was down to the preferences of where the locos were
allocated and that the ones with red inner frames were on GWR
territory and were overhauled by ex GWR staff. The carrying over of
pre-Nationalisation and even pre-Grouping styles seemed to have
occurred and there is photographic evidence that several Class 4 tanks
in certain Scottish ex LMS sheds had front end decorations which owed
more to the Caley than BR - even down to decorative plates behind the
smokebox door handles.
e.g. "Pictorial Record of BR Standard Steam Locomotives" OPC
Plate 192 - 80009 at Corkerhill
Plate 195 - 80115 at Paisley
I've also just found a photo of the frames of a Pacific under
construction and the insides of the frames appear to be painted
- Plate 28 in "BR Standard Steam Locos" by E.S.Cox. Whether this was
a form of "photographic grey" finish for the benefit of the
photographer, or whether it was standard practice, could be debated
:-)
IanRthbn
livery and was painted by BR. That engine is 46235 'City of Birmingham' which
is in the now closed Birmingham Science Museum. The inside face of the frames
is painted red.
Many railways used red lead which protected from rust. Other railways, notably
the LNWR, used black and some used tan. Maybe there were others. Under BR the
various works and sheds would follow their own custom and practice.
Ian Rathbone
Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept
the red was so it made things easier to see while over an inspection pit? If
everything was black it couldn't be seen....
Is there any truth in this?
--
Andy
Churnet Valley Model Railway Department
http://www.cvmrd.freeserve.co.uk
IanRthbn <ianr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000407074712...@nso-cu.aol.com...
Alan P Dawes
Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept <an...@cvmrd.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm only a "youngie" of 23 years of age.... I was always led to believe
> that the red was so it made things easier to see while over an
> inspection pit? If everything was black it couldn't be seen....
Or perhaps from the early days when there were so many accidents to people
working between the frames, if the frames and motion were painted red,
instead of having to thoroughly clean up all the blood and gore, a quick
slosh down with a bucket of water was enough, like on the old wooden
warships where the floor walls and table of the 'sick bay' were painted
red.
Alan
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