Baseboard Constuction, Doubtfull about using Sundeala top
David Coomber
I've got to the stage of a 'Solid Top' baseboard construction were it calls
for the use of 12mm (½") thick Sundeale board as the top surface. Even
though I'm following a 'standard' building description found in RM and even
after buying the board, I still have reservations about using it, I have
heard rumours that it can distort with time (bow down). The instructions
state that the board should be glued and screwed onto the 2"x1" timber
frame that I have built, which has cross braces at every 300mm (12"), (See
link for a picture: http://w1.609.telia.com/~u60902650/ ). Each frame is
1200mm (4') x 600mm (2').
Has anyone experienced any problems with Sundeale, if so what could be used
instead that is as easy to cut and use?
Should I put a thin supporting sheet of something else underneath?
Thanks in advance
David C
-------------------------------
David Coomber, Sweden
Tel: +46 (0)60-91555
Mobile: +46 (0)70-2086848
email: d...@telia.com
Ray
Don't use Sundeala. I used this on my layout as a track bed. It is great
until it gets wet when either ballasting or constructing scenery. It has now
swollen in every direction & my track is totally unlevel & distorted.
Ray
"David Coomber" <d...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:hBKS7.3892$l93.9...@newsb.telia.net...
Ralph Belshaw
worship in the great outdoors and actually get to see more days than not,
Sundeala is an unknown word.
What is this mysterious baseboard substance that we are regularly urged to
avoid?
Down here (Sunny Sydney) the choices for flat baseboard tops are:
MDF (Medium Density Fibreboard) which is actually quite dense. In fact, far
too dense to push in a track pin. Pretty stable but does swell if exposed
to water. A liberal coat of acryllic paint is normally sufficient to
protect it, however.
Chipboard (like MDF but with much larger particles and made with much less
pressure) which swells from humidity alone but it is soft enough to push
pins into fairly easily
Plywood - many different grades. Dense, hard to push pins into but swells
very little.
Is Sundeala related to any of these?
Regards
Ralph in Oz (Sydney
"David Coomber" <d...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:hBKS7.3892$l93.9...@newsb.telia.net...
Nick Gurney
<rbel...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>For those of us on the other side of the world where Sun is something we
>worship in the great outdoors and actually get to see more days than not,
>Sundeala is an unknown word.
>
>What is this mysterious baseboard substance that we are regularly urged to
>avoid?
>
>Regards
>
>Ralph in Oz (Sydney
>
Hi Ralph,
Try this site http://www.sundeala.co.uk/ by the way I use ply wood
for my baseboards.
Stephen Freeman
pinboard is a similar board, and perhaps a more widely known name abroad
than Sundeala (Homosote is also available in the UK though the thickness
is 11mm not 12mm.)
Any board will warp and distort, if it's not properly supported. should
be OK at 12 inches. I've not had the problem with distortion when adding
scenery. I suppose it depends on how much water you use.
Plywood is fine but noisy and it's harder to push pins into. MDF has no
place on a layout. Its heavy, and absorbs water. Best used for
furniture, if you must or boxes for storage of your valuable locos etc.
In article <5rsn1u0l2l7dfboem...@4ax.com>, Nick Gurney
<ne...@rhylgurney.freeserve.co.uk> writes
--
Stephen Freeman
http://www.borg-rail.demon.co.uk
David Coomber
'great until it gets wet' and has had problems with it, what about the idea
of painting it with an acryllic paint first, as Ralph in 'Sunny' Sydney does
when using MDF board, to help protect it from swelling and distrotion. What
is the general opinon thier?
Bye the way Sundeale is called 'Soft Board' here in 'Dark' Sweden, it took
me 6 months to find it here!
David C
--
-----------------------------
David Coomber, Sweden
Tel: +46 (0)60-91555
Mobile: +46 (0)70-2086848
email: d...@telia.com
"Ray" <phot...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CnNS7.984$O01....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
John Sullivan
Freeman <s.fr...@borg-rail.demon.co.uk>
> MDF has no
>place on a layout. Its heavy, and absorbs water. Best used for
>furniture, if you must or boxes for storage of your valuable locos etc.
MDF is best avoided like the plague.
Its dust is carcinogenic. It does not hold screws. In my previous house,
a "craftsman" built me a cabinet out of MDF, because I let him specify
the materials. The doors fell off after 4 weeks, and he did not want to
know. Needless to say he gets no more work from me.
As far as I am concerned, the best materials for furniture are woods
(oak, pine, etc.).
--
John Sullivan
Disclaimer:
By sending an email to ANY of my addresses you are agreeing that:
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Chris White
<jo...@y.ddraig.goch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
...
>MDF is best avoided like the plague.
>
>Its dust is carcinogenic. It does not hold screws. In my previous house,
As I understand it it's actually the glue thats used to bind the
wood fibre that's the problem. Also it's not aggressively deadly
like, say, asbestos. The guideline seems to be to cut it in a very
well ventilated place and use a dust mask. Ideally use machines with
dust extractors as you'll find at the timber supplier's.
>a "craftsman" built me a cabinet out of MDF, because I let him specify
>the materials. The doors fell off after 4 weeks, and he did not want to
I'd suspect this is just poor workmanship, most probably the
selction of inappropriate fixings and / or their incorrect use. A
member of our group has use MDF for his baseboard tops, has had no
problems and is highly pleased with the results.
Back to the original question, I believe another name for Sundeala
is fibre board? This begs the question of whether it's a variety of
the same 'family' as MDF?
--
Chris White
http://www.bentleymrg.org.uk/
Ed Callaghan
calls
> for the use of 12mm (½") thick Sundeale board as the top surface. Even
> though I'm following a 'standard' building description found in RM and
even
> after buying the board, I still have reservations about using it, I have
> heard rumours that it can distort with time (bow down). The instructions
> state that the board should be glued and screwed onto the 2"x1" timber
> frame that I have built, which has cross braces at every 300mm (12"), (See
> link for a picture: http://w1.609.telia.com/~u60902650/ ). Each frame is
> 1200mm (4') x 600mm (2').
>
> Has anyone experienced any problems with Sundeale, if so what could be
used
> instead that is as easy to cut and use?
> Should I put a thin supporting sheet of something else underneath?
I'm doing an open top baseboard this time but my previous layout was solid
top using sundeala, braced at about 12". The bracing was in both directions,
i.e. the sundeala sat on a criss-cross framework. It was fine. No supporting
sheet necessary. It didn't bow, and ballasting with the spray and dropper
system did not distort it, nor did wet plaster. I just nailed it to the
frame with plenty of wide-headed nails, no glue. It takes track pins easily
and keeps them in firmly. It's expensive but as you've already bought it,
that 's not a problem.
Mike PC
expensive and heavy method of construction.
MDF is fine if you take note of the health hazards, use "sturdy" track pins
with predrilled holes. Which is very time consuming but like the baseboard
construction, hopefully you only do it once.
I've never tried ply wood but it is supposed to be the best.
I've recently started an "N" gauge layout on small boards made out of foam
board ( from a Railway Modeller article) it's a revelation. Light, easy to
cut, strong but track needs gluing down
On balance I would recommend MDF, not ideal but acceptable.
Mike PC
--
"David Coomber" <d...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:hBKS7.3892$l93.9...@newsb.telia.net...
thief#37
permanent layout and not a portable from his comments. After many many
layouts across the years I always use 3/4inch (19mm) chipboard on horizontal
supports of at least 18inch strips of that laid edge upwards, or 4 x 2-inch
cross bearers. These on uprights similar. I even use 5 x 3 inch joists if to
hand as offcuts from a building site as this makes rigid longitudinals. If
I cannot walk about, kneel on, stand on, sit on, my track bed without it
sagging it is absolutely no good whatsoever. Flimsy. Why skimp?
I then nowadays lay on to it Wicks green underlay boards. These are
compressed fibre used for insulating usually on concrete floors and come in
3 x 2 ft sheets, cut easily with a Stanley knife and are s-i-l-e-n-t for
running qualities. I expect B&Q do a similar? Plywoods and hardboard are
dreadful echo substances, even when covered with a sound deadener. Cork is
very costly and Wicks boards are not merely cheaper but better anyway than
cork. Glues lovely with Resin-W and the offcuts shred nicely for scenic bulk
fibre.
I have never known properly supported thick chipboard warp unless you water
it liberally. It certainly handles diluted resin-W + ballast marvellous.
Don't stint the crossbraces in gauge or frequency and be prepared to hold a
dance on the structure. THEN your track will stay flat. This help? Bruce
+++
Anthony New
> Don't use Sundeala. I used this on my layout as a track bed. It is great
> until it gets wet when either ballasting or constructing scenery. It has now
> swollen in every direction & my track is totally unlevel & distorted.
Sundeala and its non-proprietry equivalents (softboard) are truly
*excellent* as a track base IMHO, but it is *not* in any sense a
satisfactory structural material IMHO! I've tried most forms of
baseboard, and whether you use flat top baseboards or open-frame, you
need a proper track base (ply, chipboard, or mdf) to support the track,
and use the softboard *only* as a "top dressing". I generally as cork as
well, which helps to give a suitable edge to the ballast and also allows
the track to be lifted more easily if you glue the ballast securely.
I use 4mm or 6mm mdf on softwood framework, with 10mm softboard in track
areas and 3mm cork under the tracks themselves, cut along the track
edges before ballasting.
Anthony.
Anthony New
> Yn erthygl <rgNN9BAq...@borg-rail.demon.co.uk>, sgrifennodd Stephen
> Freeman <s.fr...@borg-rail.demon.co.uk>
> > MDF has no
> >place on a layout. Its heavy, and absorbs water. Best used for
> >furniture, if you must or boxes for storage of your valuable locos etc.
>
> MDF is best avoided like the plague.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here!
MDF is an excellent material to work with, provided (like all materials)
that you understand it!
It is a compressed fibrous material bonded with resin, and has no grain.
Expecting to screw bits together is (IMHO) the result of poor habits in
carpentry - screws shouldn't be relied upon to hold *any* woods
together. All they do is provide some location to hold the parts
together while glue sets - it is the glue that holds (or should hold)
joints together under the stresses to which furnature is subject.
Where I would agree is the modern trend to build furnature out of mdf
and chipboard without any proper supporting frame, and expect a few
dowels to hold it together. Junk habits producing junk furnature!
The benefits of mdf are its ease of working/cutting, dimensional
stability and freedom from warping (without any preferred axes), and its
intermediate mass which helps to damp sound without excessive weight. By
comparison chipboard is a much poorer material with a very low
strength-to-weight ratio, which is only ever useful where weight doesn't
matter and the material is basically free.
Plywood is better in some respects, but both mdf and plywood will warp
if they get damp. The difference is that plywood can warp if it stays
dry and mdf won't!
(I still wouldn't build boats out of mdf, though, but then I wouldn't
build them out of carbon fibre either! <g>)
Anthony.
Anthony New
> I'm doing an open top baseboard this time but my previous layout was solid
> top using sundeala, braced at about 12". The bracing was in both directions,
> i.e. the sundeala sat on a criss-cross framework. It was fine. No supporting
> sheet necessary. It didn't bow, and ballasting with the spray and dropper
> system did not distort it, nor did wet plaster.
You must be lucky, or perhaps just haven't left it long enough! I gave
up trying to get level track on unsupported softboard, though to be true
I wasn't using "Sundeala" which is very much harder/denser grade than
the softboard often sold under different names.
I'd use mdf and cheaper (non-sundeala) softboard on tip where the tracks
go. This also allows the scenery to drop below track level easily
without major planning - just cut the softboard out between tracks! And
(which is important) just add it back again when you change your mind .
. . you can always add bits of mdf back into holes, because it glues so
well.
Anthony.
Mal Thomas
news:y3SS7.11848$_z.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> For those of us on the other side of the world where Sun is something we
> worship in the great outdoors and actually get to see more days than not,
> Sundeala is an unknown word.
>
> What is this mysterious baseboard substance that we are regularly urged to
> avoid?
The nearest equivalent I can find here (in Oz) is a board called Cainite -
used for making pin-up boards. I think it comes from USA as the sizes of
the boards are imperial rather than metric. Anyway, the working surface is
white while the board itself is a buff colour. It is not cheap either. I
bought enough to cover a 9' x 5' board and it cost me over $AU100.00.
I got it from the local hardware superstore. It is easy to work with, ie a
sharp stanley knife does the job well.
My board has 9mm MDF sheets covered with the Cainite and the track is laid
on cork. Yeah it's heavy, but it's a permanent layout so I don't have to
hump it anywhere.
So far I have not had any problems with the board swelling due to contact
with water etc.
Hope that helps
Cheers
Mal
Ralph Belshaw
Wow, what a hornets' nest of interest just one simple question can create on
this group.
Thanks to all and sundry who replied with suggestions - and a big thanks to
Alan Brown who even went to the length of scanning a piece of Sundeala and
e-mailing the picture to me off-line. There is now no-one in Australia who
knows more about Sundeala than I do!
There were some very good suggestions - I particularly like the idea of
laying an MDF baseboard and then topping it with a soft-board like Sundeala
and cutting out around the laid track. Being able to "lower" the scenery
around the line using this method has a lot of appeal.
Anymore ideas are warmly welcomed...
Regards and Seasons Greetings
Ralph in Oz (Sydney)
Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept.
: >the materials. The doors fell off after 4 weeks, and he did not want to
Funny, Dolls houses are often made of this, and they never have problems....
Mine (Ok, the girlfiends, which I built) is as sturdy as any baseboard I
built. Like Chris said, shoddy workmanship springs to mind....
: Back to the original question, I believe another name for Sundeala
: is fibre board? This begs the question of whether it's a variety of
: the same 'family' as MDF?
I always thought Sundeala was an MDF but a different grade of fibre? But I
am probably wrong. Someone will hopefully put us right...
Andy Sollis
Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept. (remove the Standard Class 4 from e-mail
to reply!)
http://www.cvmrd.freeserve.co.uk (Home of the Churnet Valley Model Railway
Department)
http://www.churnet-valley-railway.co.uk (The Churnet Valley Railway Site)
http://www.kachuzyn.fsnet.co.uk (The Leek & Manifold Web site)
Les Pickstock
Working in a design department I have the opportunity to handle a lot of MDF The last H&S guidelines we have had suggest that long term exposure to the dust would be harmful but good extraction and or a quality dust mask is sufficient protection.
Sundela can't be classed with MDF as the latter is chemically reduced wood fibre and Sundela is manufactured from compressed paper (MDF eliminates the paper making stage) The consistency of Sundela is constant through its thickness whereas MDF has a slightly softer core between chemically "tempered" surfaces.
Screwing into MDF is easy enough provided the correct type of screws are used and proper sized pilot hole are drilled first. Twin start "chipboard" type screws are best and our testing shows that if the correct sized pilot holes are drilled the hold strength is about a third as much again as screws just "driven" in. Problems arise when ordinary type wood screws are just "driven" as this crushes the MDF fibres and reduces the strength considerables especial when screwing into the edges. Thin MDF will split along the plane of the board very easily but slightly oversized pilot hole will stop this when screwing into the edges. HTH
David Coomber
was in fact wondering how one gets a point motor to 'stay' mounted under the
baseboard? (The screw holes supplied with the 'Seep' solenoid point motor I
have, seem also to be on the small side.)
David C
-------------------------------
David Coomber, Sweden
Tel: +46 (0)60-91555
Mobile: +46 (0)70-2086848
email: d...@telia.com
"Les Pickstock" <j.l.pi...@lboro.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:01c186f3$e1397aa0$10f0...@pc95-cdjlp.lboro.ac.uk...
Les Pickstock
David Coomber <d...@telia.com> wrote in article <2WoT7.4163$l93.1...@newsb.telia.net>...
> May I ask about 'Screwing into Sundeala'. Have you any tips on that, as I
> was in fact wondering how one gets a point motor to 'stay' mounted under the
> baseboard? (The screw holes supplied with the 'Seep' solenoid point motor I
> have, seem also to be on the small side.)
Although I have'nt got to this stage with my layout yet. (Manually operated points,as yet) I have constucted my base board of sundela over softwood frames. We also use sundela for jobs in the dept. I found the best screws were the chipboard type I mentioned They have a narrow shank and wide flutes (or threads) These bite deeper into the board and hold better, Ordinary slot headed woodscrews in small sizes are tapered which tends to crush the fibre board as they go in and can work loose again.
It sounds like you need screws of this chipboard type in very small sizes, the smallest ones I've ever seen which worked pretty good in sundela were the one they use to put Speaker cabinets together, you may also be able to use the screws they sell to fix Speakers in cars. They are are more of a self tapping screw but should work quite well.
Check your local yellow pages for companies that supplies screws and nails (the DIY stores tend only to have the larger sizes) and explain to them what you need to screw into, perhaps take an offcut to show them.
As a last resort you could try pinning the points motor in place, after all Track pins work fairly well in Sundela. HTH
stewart....@ntlworld.com.nospam
wrote:
>May I ask about 'Screwing into Sundeala'. Have you any tips on that, as I
>was in fact wondering how one gets a point motor to 'stay' mounted under the
>baseboard? (The screw holes supplied with the 'Seep' solenoid point motor I
>have, seem also to be on the small side.)
>
>David C
>
>-------------------------------
>David Coomber, Sweden
>Tel: +46 (0)60-91555
>Mobile: +46 (0)70-2086848
>email: d...@telia.com
>
My last model was built on a base of fibreboard, which can't be far
from Sundeala. I used used a combination of PVA glue and small
woodscrews. The motors are still stuck firmly 5 years later.
Stewart
Ed Callaghan
"Anthony New" <a...@nojunk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3C1D23D0...@nojunk.co.uk...
You're right about softboard Anthony, it's useless, fibres much too loose. I
used it on my very first "proper" layout at the age of sixteen. Sundeala is
quite different, being, as you say, harder and denser. I certainly left it
long enough - about five years I think, as my sons were growing up and I had
little time for railway modelling in those years.
B.Rumary
> Chipboard (like MDF but with much larger particles and made with much less
> pressure) which swells from humidity alone but it is soft enough to push
> pins into fairly easily
>
quite big chips of wood (hence th name) and is pretty hard. Not stuff you
could *push* small pines into. What you describe sound more like Celotex or
insulation board, which is made from bagasse (crushed sugar cane waste) and
is very soft and about 3/4 inch thick.
Brian Rumary, England
Ralph Belshaw
...certainly, however, Aussie chipbaord is made of fairly large chips - and
is far softer than MDF but much harder than pinboard. Apart from that I'm
all at sea re the comparison
Regards
Ralph in Oz (Sydney)
"B.Rumary" <brian....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:VA.0000172...@virgin.net...
Anthony New
>
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:19:10 GMT, "David Coomber" <d...@telia.com>
> wrote:
> >May I ask about 'Screwing into Sundeala'. Have you any tips on that, as I
> >was in fact wondering how one gets a point motor to 'stay' mounted under the
> >baseboard? (The screw holes supplied with the 'Seep' solenoid point motor I
> >have, seem also to be on the small side.)
> My last model was built on a base of fibreboard, which can't be far
> from Sundeala. I used used a combination of PVA glue and small
> woodscrews. The motors are still stuck firmly 5 years later.
I use round-headed wood screws (pilot hole for mdf, not for soft board),
but use 3mm sponge under (above!) the point motor and *don'y* tighten
the screws fully, to leave some float. This deadens the sound and also
doesn't let the screws vibrate out.
Anthony.
Mike Smith
thief#37 wrote in message <9vit40$iqd$1...@paris.btinternet.com>...
>I model in 0-gauge 7mm scale on 32mm track. I assume poster is on a
>permanent layout and not a portable from his comments. After many many
>layouts across the years I always use 3/4inch (19mm) chipboard on
horizontal
>supports of at least 18inch strips of that laid edge upwards, or 4 x 2-inch
>cross bearers. These on uprights similar. I even use 5 x 3 inch joists if
to
>hand as offcuts from a building site as this makes rigid longitudinals. If
>I cannot walk about, kneel on, stand on, sit on, my track bed without it
>sagging it is absolutely no good whatsoever. Flimsy. Why skimp?
>
>I then nowadays lay on to it Wicks green underlay boards. These are
>compressed fibre used for insulating usually on concrete floors and come in
>3 x 2 ft sheets, cut easily with a Stanley knife and are s-i-l-e-n-t for
>running qualities. I expect B&Q do a similar?
I use a kind of brown felt used for packing between concrete sections
obtained from a builders merchant, 8 ft lengths in 3, 6 and 8 inch widths
and about half an inch thick - The seems fine for deadening sound from a ply
sub-base in N - It is also very cheap and has lasted well over a year in an
unheated garden shed layout - The builders merchants couldn't tell me what
it is called (? !)