Hornby B12 Derailments
Gerald H
just about every Peco code 100 point on my layout. The back to back
measurements of the tender wheels seem rather narrow and the tender
frames also seem very close together, which doesn't give a lot of space
for improving things.
I have heard of other people having trouble with the tenders of these
locos. Does anyone know of a solution, perhaps a supplier of better
tender wheels?
Wolf K
Hornby should supply correctly spaced wheels. If they don't, send the
#^%#% thing back. You're paying enough of your hard earned moolah for
the loco, after all.
cheers,
wolf k.
Alistair Wright
> #^%#% thing back. You're paying enough of your hard earned moolah for the
> loco, after all.
>
> cheers,
>
> wolf k.
Fair enough, but this may take time. I operate some of the new Hornby stock
on finescale track, ie B/B 14.2 mm minimum. I get a lot of Hornby stuff
which is tighter than this. If it is just the B12 tender which is giving
bother you can increase the B/B yourself by taking the wheels out and gently
twisting the wheelset while pulling the wheels away from each other. I have
also done loco driving wheels using a slightly more brutal technique which I
won't bother you with here. The twist and pull technique works a treat on
coaches and wagons and I did my A4 tender that way as well.
We need to remember these models are assembled by people who have no idea
what they are making. I guess wheel sets are delivered ready assembled and
the little Chinese ladies just drop them in. No one is testing anything much
these days. If they did, prices would be much higher.
Personally I think Hornby wheels are so improved over the old 'steam roller'
wheels that a small amount of fiddling is a price I am pepared to pay.
Alistair W
simon
"Alistair Wright" <awhw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:5N2dnYoWXMDCPoDX...@bt.com...
wheel cleaning then tis worth getting used to checking/correcting b2b.
Although its new would also check wheels are clean with no bits of gunge
adjacent to flanges.
Cheers,
Simon
intercit...@yahoo.co.uk
months, this is becoming more of a problem, especially on the finer
scale track.
Pete.
Sailor
I have had similar problems with various locos -- mainly Bachmann.
After endless checks and measurements I tried a random swap of axel
sets and that did the trick in each case. Most of the problems arose
on curved points whist going astern.
regards
Gerald H
> on finescale track, ie B/B 14.2 mm minimum. I get a lot of Hornby stuff
> which is tighter than this. If it is just the B12 tender which is giving
> bother you can increase the B/B yourself by taking the wheels out and gently
> twisting the wheelset while pulling the wheels away from each other.
Sending it back to Hornby would be a bit of a pain and looking at the
tender chassis (see below) it's hard to see how they could resolve it,
unless later Chinese B12's have a different tender chassis.
Moving the wheels out on the axles would be the obvious thing to do, but
my China made B12 surprisingly has Triang-style sleeved axles. The back-
to-back measurement is thus determined by the length of the inner sleeves
which is too short. I could try and fit a tiny washer in there to push
the sleeves apart, but the sideframes are pretty tight. Another option
might be to find non-sleeved wheels that would push onto the axle.
A lot of ex-set B12's seem to be on offer at very good prices at the
moment, so I'm wondering whether others have had the same problem. The
loco chassis runs very well.
Bill Campbell
<ger...@nospam.com> writes
>> Fair enough, but this may take time. I operate some of the new Hornby stock
>> on finescale track, ie B/B 14.2 mm minimum. I get a lot of Hornby stuff
>> which is tighter than this. If it is just the B12 tender which is giving
>> bother you can increase the B/B yourself by taking the wheels out and gently
>> twisting the wheelset while pulling the wheels away from each other.
>
>
>
>my China made B12 surprisingly has Triang-style sleeved axles. The back-
>to-back measurement is thus determined by the length of the inner sleeves
>which is too short. I could try and fit a tiny washer in there to push
>the sleeves apart, but the sideframes are pretty tight. Another option
>might be to find non-sleeved wheels that would push onto the axle.
>
The split-sleeve axle design goes back more years than most would care
to remember.
The solution is to remove the wheel/split axles and reduce the moulded
boss on the outside face of each wheel. It is not essential to insert a
spacer as the wheels will adapt to the flangeways by themselves.
Regards
--
Bill Campbell
Gerald H
> >my China made B12 surprisingly has Triang-style sleeved axles. The back-
> >to-back measurement is thus determined by the length of the inner sleeves
> >which is too short. I could try and fit a tiny washer in there to push
> >the sleeves apart, but the sideframes are pretty tight. Another option
> >might be to find non-sleeved wheels that would push onto the axle.
> The split-sleeve axle design goes back more years than most would care
> to remember.
> The solution is to remove the wheel/split axles and reduce the moulded
> boss on the outside face of each wheel. It is not essential to insert a
> spacer as the wheels will adapt to the flangeways by themselves.
Thanks for all your help on this. I have solved the problem.
As suggested I removed the wheels and filed down the moulded boss on the
outside of each wheel axle. I also filed down any moulding bumps on the
inside of the tender frames which allowed the wheels to spread further
when going through the points. With old Triang wheels this would have
been enough, but as the newer Hornby sleeved wheels have smaller flanges,
the wheels were still rising up over the check rails.
I solved it by getting a plastic drinks bottle, flattening it out and
making washers out it. These washers are exactly the right thickness to
spread the wheels by the required amount.
To make the washers, just clamp the plastic to your Workmate, drill axle
sized holes in it and then cut around each of them with scissors.
The axle with the exhaust steam sound thingy on it is a little more
complex. You have to gently force off the metal clip and then separate
the two halves of the axles with a razor saw, as they may have been glued
together. I had to put two washers on that axle to compensate for the
cut of the razor saw.
The tender now runs perfectly and it cost me nothing... :)
John Turner
"Gerald H" wrote
> I've just bought a new, China made, Hornby B12 and the tender derails on
> just about every Peco code 100 point on my layout. The back to back
> measurements of the tender wheels seem rather narrow and the tender
> frames also seem very close together, which doesn't give a lot of space
> for improving things.
From memory these still have the original Tri-ang spec plastic tender
wheels, which have gross flanges and a back-to-back of around 13mm (14.5 to
15.0 been considered appropriate these days). The B12 also has a terrible
reputation for wearing out the drive gears.
I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.
John.
John Turner
"Gerald H" wrote
> Sending it back to Hornby would be a bit of a pain
It should go back to the retailer from which you bought it, but if that's
not feasible, then Hornby have a 'freepost' address for warranty repairs.
John.
Paul Boyd
> From memory these still have the original Tri-ang spec plastic tender
> wheels, which have gross flanges and a back-to-back of around 13mm (14.5 to
> 15.0 been considered appropriate these days). The B12 also has a terrible
> reputation for wearing out the drive gears.
It doesn't still have the "chuff-chuff" cam on it well, does it? :-)
--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.me.uk/
John Turner
"Paul Boyd" wrote
> It doesn't still have the "chuff-chuff" cam on it well, does it? :-)
Some of the early Chinese made ones had, not sure about the more recent
examples.
John.
Gerald H
> > From memory these still have the original Tri-ang spec plastic tender
> > wheels, which have gross flanges and a back-to-back of around 13mm (14.5 to
> > 15.0 been considered appropriate these days). The B12 also has a terrible
> > reputation for wearing out the drive gears.
> It doesn't still have the "chuff-chuff" cam on it well, does it? :-)
Mine still has the chuff chuff sound, goes round 1st radius curves with
fully flanged wheels and cost me (new) less than GBP 30 :)
It'll look a bit better when I glaze the cab, stick in a crew and plug in
the vacuum pipes.
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>
>> > From memory these still have the original Tri-ang spec plastic tender
>> > wheels, which have gross flanges and a back-to-back of around 13mm (14.5 to
>> > 15.0 been considered appropriate these days). The B12 also has a terrible
>> > reputation for wearing out the drive gears.
>
>> It doesn't still have the "chuff-chuff" cam on it well, does it? :-)
>
>Mine still has the chuff chuff sound, goes round 1st radius curves with
>fully flanged wheels and cost me (new) less than GBP 30 :)
That one had a good mechanism with the excellent Triang motor and two
start worm.
Many kits were designed around it, including my Wills Saint, even
though the wheelbase was wrong.
>It'll look a bit better when I glaze the cab, stick in a crew and plug in
>the vacuum pipes.
The rebuilt B12 was actually due to Thompson during his tenure at
Stratford, not Gresley, and was probably his best engine - even better
IMO than the B1. I didn't see them very often because I lived on the
former Metropolitan and Great Central not the Great Eastern.
Graham Thurlwell
<snip>
[Hornby B12]
>>Mine still has the chuff chuff sound, goes round 1st radius curves with
>>fully flanged wheels and cost me (new) less than GBP 30 :)
> That one had a good mechanism with the excellent Triang motor and two
> start worm.
We had a Chinese-made one on Thorpe Thewles and it was very reliable,
if quite some way out of region (we were short of LNER-liveried
engines at the time and got a good price on it). As long as you're
careful starting it, it can lift 8-10 of the old Hornby Gresley Teaks
and will just keep going.
Its place in the rotation was eventually taken by Gresley A1 class
Flying Fox but we do still take it with us every now and again.
--
Jades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web.
nos...@jades.org /is/ a real email address!
simon
"Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:35q225pe78r6f61el...@4ax.com...
> Many kits were designed around it, including my Wills Saint, even
> though the wheelbase was wrong.
>
Also Gem LNWR Prince of Wales.
Cheers,
Simon
Christopher A. Lee
They worked a lot better than my K's engines. Better motor and
chassis, and can you imagine anything more ridiculous than soft white
metal piston and connecting rods?
>Cheers,
>Simon
Wolf K
[...]
> Thanks for all your help on this. I have solved the problem.
>
> As suggested I removed the wheels and filed down the moulded boss on the
> outside of each wheel axle. I also filed down any moulding bumps on the
> inside of the tender frames which allowed the wheels to spread further
> when going through the points. With old Triang wheels this would have
> been enough, but as the newer Hornby sleeved wheels have smaller flanges,
> the wheels were still rising up over the check rails.
>
> I solved it by getting a plastic drinks bottle, flattening it out and
> making washers out it. These washers are exactly the right thickness to
> spread the wheels by the required amount.
>
> To make the washers, just clamp the plastic to your Workmate, drill axle
> sized holes in it and then cut around each of them with scissors.
>
> The axle with the exhaust steam sound thingy on it is a little more
> complex. You have to gently force off the metal clip and then separate
> the two halves of the axles with a razor saw, as they may have been glued
> together. I had to put two washers on that axle to compensate for the
> cut of the razor saw.
>
> The tender now runs perfectly and it cost me nothing... :)
>
I admire your ingenuity and persistence, but I would have sent the model
back. If you can fix the problem with such low-tech methods, then Hornby
could easily redesign the frame so that correctly sized wheel sets would
fit.
Anyhow, you had fun, and that's what really counts, eh? ;-)
cheers,
wolf k.
Gerald H
>> ... Thanks for all your help on this. I have solved the problem...
> I admire your ingenuity and persistence, but I would have sent the model
> back. If you can fix the problem with such low-tech methods, then Hornby
> could easily redesign the frame so that correctly sized wheel sets would
> fit.
> Anyhow, you had fun, and that's what really counts, eh? ;-)
If it had been a bigger fault I would have sent it back, I also got the
loco at such a low price (a new tender loco for less than GBP 30!) that I
was happy to do a bit of fiddling. The time I spend fiddling was
probably little more than it would have taken me to package it up and go
to the Post Office. I was also worried about the postal system causing
more damage, or losing it...
I must admit that I do like to do a bit of tweaking with my models and
the simpler, more robust, models like the B12 are great for this as they
are cheaper and less fragile.
Despite being in my 40's, I also like smoke generators, chuff chuff
noises and wagons with opening doors that I can put stuff in. Boys never
grow up...
simon
Same problem with piston rod and crosshead on nu-cast B1. after finally
sorted out wheels, realised one piston rod slightly bent. Decided to pack in
for a long while before going back to it - maybe get comet chassis instead.
Cheers,
Simon
Greg.Procter
wrote:
That might have been true in the days of Trix Twin and Tri-ang where the
principal of tracking was akin to rolling a golf ball along household
spouting, but the slightly finer standards of today depend on the guard
rail pulling the back of the flange of the wheel that is away from the
frog pulling the wheel traversing the frog clear of the V rail. (frog)
You need those wheels rigidly connected via the axle.
Regards,
Greg.P.
Bill Campbell
<pro...@ihug.co.nz> writes
Hi Greg
You may be interested to know that the Tri-ang crane truck I converted
as described is quite happy on Scaleway plain track and handbuilt
copperclad turnouts to fine OO standards. The wheel flanges have not
required modification.
The only other change was the use of a wire retainer to keep the axles
from falling out of the bearings when the truck is lifted.
Regards
--
Bill Campbell
Greg.Procter
wrote:
Hi Bill,
Having been a modeller (European + UK HO + Tri-ang NZ) for 50 years now,
I have a collection with just about every wheel type you can imagine.
I long ago concluded that I would never catch up with getting all those
wheels to a single standard, so now I just convert the worst runners and
those that look really bad. That IMHO adds up to a lot of experience :-)
Sure, reasonably modern Hornby wheels can co-operate with reasonably
finescale turnouts. (on plain track, it's just flange depth that counts)
I'd guess that your split-sleeve wheelsets are tight enough so that they
don't actually move on the axle under normal operating conditions and that
they just happen to be at a spacing (BtoB) that suits your turnouts.
The turnouts might even have bumped the wheels apart to the right spacing.
:-)
I wouldn't count on having the same luck with other examples of those
wheels.
Regards,
Greg.P.