Lima Class 20 re-motoring
Simon Reader
(I think in one of the periodic "Lima motors are cr*p" threads!). The
context being that the Class 20 with the can motor is not too bad especially
if you re-motor it. I have 4 Lima 20s and the slow speed running is
diabolical. I was wondering therefore whether to remotor them. Has anybody
fitted a better motor and if so what did you use? Alternatively any
suggestions for getting them to run better at slow speeds would be welcomed.
Basically they are very snatchy/jerky. The wheels and track are clean
before anyone asks.
Thanks
John Turner
"Simon Reader" <simon....@btinternet.com> wrote
> Somewhile back there was a passing mention to re-motoring a Lima Class 20.
> (I think in one of the periodic "Lima motors are cr*p" threads!). The
> context being that the Class 20 with the can motor is not too bad
especially
> if you re-motor it. I have 4 Lima 20s and the slow speed running is
> diabolical. I was wondering therefore whether to remotor them. <SNIP>
I am about to remotor a Lima class 20 with a Mashima 1830 motor and a
Branchlines 18mm flywheel, in the hope that this will improve matters, as
others have recommended this.
This is a very straight forward process, certainly for the early models,
with the Mashima motor being a direct clip-in replacement. The Mashima
motor is double-ended and the flywheel simply goes on the opposite end to
the flexible drive shaft arrangement.
On recent models it may be necessary to use an adhesive to hold the
replacement motor in position.
John,
53A Models, Hull, UK.
Steve Jones
in the past I've had these from Branchlines who advertise in Railway
Modeller, etc.
The motor is a straight swap for the Lima one in original 20s, but needs a
bit of slilicon sealant to hold it in place in later ones.
--
Regards,
Steve Jones,
Shropshire, England
Revamped railway site at http://www.samsonrail.com/
The Boneyard at http://www.class58.com/
Class 47 Gallery at http://www.brush4.co.uk/
Class 60 Gallery at http://www.class60gallery.co.uk/
UK Railways in the 70s at http://www.ukrail1970s.co.uk/
Personal site at http://www.sammythecat.com/
Simon Reader <simon....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a1pcht$n9l$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
Chris White
<simon....@btinternet.com> wrote:
...
>context being that the Class 20 with the can motor is not too bad especially
>if you re-motor it. I have 4 Lima 20s and the slow speed running is
>diabolical. I was wondering therefore whether to remotor them. Has anybody
I don't know for a fact as I've not done this but a quick
inspection of one of these models gave the impression that any
reasonable can of the right size would be an improvement, at the time
I suggested the owner check the Buhler range
http://www.buehlermotor.com/
The problem seems to be that the motor fitted has incredibly
pronounced 'cogging'. I received the impression during conversations
about this that the first models with this drive exhibited the problem
whereas later versions didn't. If this where the case then I'd
suggest Lima should do the decent thing and replace the bad motors
free of charge. It could be argued that the poor runners are not fit
for their intended purpose ( or 'of merchandisable quality') given the
whole point of a can motor and flywheel is smooth low speed
performance.
--
Chris White
http://www.bentleymrg.org.uk/
John Cordrey
arrangement.. any thoughts?
John
"Simon Reader" <simon....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a1pcht$n9l$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
Bill Campbell
<simon....@btinternet.com> writes
the Lima motor to smooth it a bit.
One source of problems that may not have occurred to you is to check the
gear train in the powered bogie. A damaged gear tooth or muck in the
drive train could give the symptoms you describe.
Worth checking before spending money!
--
Bill Campbell
Anthony New
> The problem seems to be that the motor fitted has incredibly
> pronounced 'cogging'.
Not inspected this model, but the usual reason for bad cogging with Lima
motors is that the magnets are made out of rubber and bent into a
circle. :-(
You think I'm joking? No - it's true!!!
But surely, the class 20 is widely recognised as Lima's best
drivetrain??!!
Anthony.
Stuart Smith
news:L5xfsIAI...@bacam.demon.co.uk...
> Mine runs fine although I have added a 14mm flywheel to the back end of
> the Lima motor to smooth it a bit.
Sorry for the elementary nature of this question, but what is a flywheel (at
least in the context of model locomotives)?
How did you do the flywheel conversion to the Class 20?
Regards,
Stuart.
--
"I've got a small boat down in the harbour and
I'm going to make a tour of the rivers of France"
Simon Reader
> But surely, the class 20 is widely recognised as Lima's best
> drivetrain??!!
As far as I am concerned the Bachmann and Heljan chassis are now the
benchmark and I've sold all my Lima locomotives except the 20s. I only kept
these because I have a soft spot for the class. Despite the better drive
train arrangement relative to other Lima locomotives mine still do not run
very well especially at low speeds. The fact there is a well tried upgrade
arrangement (new motor and/or flywheel) as outline in the responses to my
original question tends to suggest that I am not alone in thinking its not
good enough.
However at least there seems to be a relatively straightforward way to
upgrade the 20s. As far as I can see, the standard Lima motor arrangement
does not appear to be capable of ready upgrade since the demise of the
Ultrascale power bogies. If someone brought out a set of replacement metal
chassis with central motor and shaft drive for the Lima range (at the right
price of course) then I reckon they'd make a fortune.
Anyway folks thanks for the steer - I will try a new motor and flywheel in
one of the 20s and see how it goes.
Bill Campbell
<s.g....@blueyonder.nonastystuff.co.uk> writes
>"Bill Campbell" <bi...@bacam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:L5xfsIAI...@bacam.demon.co.uk...
>
>> Mine runs fine although I have added a 14mm flywheel to the back end of
>> the Lima motor to smooth it a bit.
>
>Sorry for the elementary nature of this question, but what is a flywheel (at
>least in the context of model locomotives)?
in the rotational velocity of the motor armature.
Flywheels are commonly used with stationary steam engines to even out
the pulses from the cylinder(s) so that the drive to machinery is
smoother.
>
>How did you do the flywheel conversion to the Class 20?
Lanarkshire Models and Supplies and it was a push fit on the other end
of the motor shaft from the drive to the bogie.
The 14mm size was chosen because it did not require any alteration to
the chassis or small panel holding the anti-interference components.
--
Bill Campbell
Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept.
: I am about to remotor a Lima class 20 with a Mashima 1830 motor and a
: Branchlines 18mm flywheel, in the hope that this will improve matters, as
: others have recommended this.
: 53A Models, Hull, UK.
Do you by any chance stock these motors John? and if so, How much?
Andy
:
:
Ray
The Mashima 18/30 motor is an almost perfect fit. Just add a couple of spots
of epoxy to stop it from rocking. A flywheel can also be added at one end. I
have remotored two examples & also replaced the driveshafts (which will need
to be cut-down) with those from Branchlines. The result is a very smooth
running loco with a realistic top speed,
Ray
"Simon Reader" <simon....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a1pcht$n9l$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
Stuart Smith
> In article <iPf08.12415$kB3.9...@news1.cableinet.net>, Stuart Smith
> <s.g....@blueyonder.nonastystuff.co.uk> writes
> >"Bill Campbell" <bi...@bacam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:L5xfsIAI...@bacam.demon.co.uk...
> >
> >> Mine runs fine although I have added a 14mm flywheel to the back end of
> >> the Lima motor to smooth it a bit.
> >
> >Sorry for the elementary nature of this question, but what is a flywheel
(at
> >least in the context of model locomotives)?
> It is a rotating mass that, in theory, helps to smooth any irregularity
> in the rotational velocity of the motor armature.
Ah. Is the flywheel free to rotate independently of the rotation of the
motor?
> Flywheels are commonly used with stationary steam engines to even out
> the pulses from the cylinder(s) so that the drive to machinery is
> smoother.
> >
> >How did you do the flywheel conversion to the Class 20?
> I simply purchased a brass 14mm flywheel from a local supplier -
> Lanarkshire Models and Supplies and it was a push fit on the other end
> of the motor shaft from the drive to the bogie.
> The 14mm size was chosen because it did not require any alteration to
> the chassis or small panel holding the anti-interference components.
Do you think the same idea could be applied to ringfield motors? Or is there
insufficient space in the loco body?
Regards,
Stuart.
Dave Fossett
> Ah. Is the flywheel free to rotate independently of the rotation of
the
> motor?
No. It wouldn't serve any purpose if it was free to rotate
independently. To put it in very basic terms, the momentum of the
rotating heavy flywheel attached to the motor shaft ensures that the
motor continues rotating even if, say, power is momentarily lost due to
poor electrical contacts or whatever. This helps locomotives glide
effortlessly over dodgy points where non-flywheel locos might stutter or
just stall. Flywheels are now generally standard equipment on Japanese N
gauge locos, and I believe the same is true in the US.
In the real world, I think some of the early Southern Railway electric
locomotives had flywheels to overcome exactly the same problem.
--
Dave Fossett
Saitama, JAPAN
Roger T & Heather B
"> gauge locos, and I believe the same is true in the US.
You betcha. No North American model worth it's salt comes without a
flywheel. Diesel or steam.
Cheers
Roger T.
Chris White
<simon....@btinternet.com> wrote:
...
>upgrade the 20s. As far as I can see, the standard Lima motor arrangement
>does not appear to be capable of ready upgrade since the demise of the
>Ultrascale power bogies. If someone brought out a set of replacement metal
>chassis with central motor and shaft drive for the Lima range (at the right
I assume we're talking about the 'pancake' motor here. In it's
defence I must say we've operated a large fleet of locomotives fitted
with these. Experience has shown that as long as wheels and track are
kept clean and using a Gaugemaster feedback controller these can
provide excellent low speed performance. I'd go so far as to say that
in some cases it's been comparable to the can motor/flywheel
combination.
There was a thread some time ago where the idea was mooted that it
is quite plausible to produce a five pole skew wound replacement
armature to fit these motors. If someone could come up with a
flywheel to suit, or increase the mass of the armature, I feel this
style of motor would have a lot to offer given it's intrinsically
simpler drive train and compact size (ok not it's height but it
doesn't fill the locomotive body space).
John Turner
"Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept." <an...@cvmrd80136.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
Sorry for delay in responding Andy. No we don't stock them, I sourced mine
from Branchlines - they totalled around £18.00
John.
John Turner
"Bill Campbell" <bi...@bacam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> I simply purchased a brass 14mm flywheel from a local supplier -
> Lanarkshire Models and Supplies and it was a push fit on the other end
> of the motor shaft from the drive to the bogie.
> The 14mm size was chosen because it did not require any alteration to
> the chassis or small panel holding the anti-interference components.
> --
> Bill Campbell
Interesting - all of the Lima 20s I've seen have had single ended motors -
how do you attach a flywheel to them? This is the very reason (apart from
smoother running) that I've purchased the double-ended Mashime 1830 - the
flywheel simply slots on the opposite end of the motor to the universal
drive.
John.
Steve Jones
news:u48o9np...@corp.supernews.com...
> Interesting - all of the Lima 20s I've seen have had single ended motors -
> how do you attach a flywheel to them? This is the very reason (apart from
> smoother running) that I've purchased the double-ended Mashime 1830 - the
> flywheel simply slots on the opposite end of the motor to the universal
> drive.
More recent 20s do have a bit of shaft protruding from the supplied motor.
I've got quite a few of these bought from a certain model shop in Hull ;-)
But personally I don't think it's worth fitting the flywheel alone, the
Mashima motor gives the bigger improvement.
Anthony New
> There was a thread some time ago where the idea was mooted that it
> is quite plausible to produce a five pole skew wound replacement
> armature to fit these motors. If someone could come up with a
> flywheel to suit, or increase the mass of the armature, I feel this
> style of motor would have a lot to offer given it's intrinsically
> simpler drive train and compact size (ok not it's height but it
> doesn't fill the locomotive body space).
I still think that the better solution is to find a proper ringfield
magnet - ie, a metal one in a continuous circle with proper clearances.
Don't know where to get one, though.
<thinks> . . . might be worth while getting a quote from a magnet
supplier . . .
Anthony.
Anthony New
> >Sorry for the elementary nature of this question, but what is a flywheel (at
> >least in the context of model locomotives)?
> It is a rotating mass that, in theory, helps to smooth any irregularity
> in the rotational velocity of the motor armature.
> Flywheels are commonly used with stationary steam engines to even out
> the pulses from the cylinder(s) so that the drive to machinery is
> smoother.
The snag with it is, that the flywheel only works when it is rotating,
and the asymetric magnetic field from the poor magnet tends to cause the
armature to "stick" at certain positions. :-(
Anthony.
Anthony New
Are you thinking of "boosters"? AIUI these were flywheels fitted to
free-running electric motors which operated as generators for a while
when the track supply disappeared. The same was tried in models, BTW,
under the name "dynadrive" some decades ago (not to be confused with a
more recent brand of similar name). Gave some improvement with poor
mechanical controllers, and incidentally gave a fairly realistic noise
from locos on starting up (basically, the free motor started running
audibly before the train moved)
Anthony.
Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept.
: > Andy
:
: Sorry for delay in responding Andy. No we don't stock them, I sourced
mine
: from Branchlines - they totalled around £18.00
:
: John.
:Ta matey! May just have to invest in one! Under DCC, the original motor can
stop from full power on a 50p! Trouble is that it also has the acceleration
rate of an f1 car! (Growls nice though!)
--
Andy Sollis
Churnet Valley Model Railway Dept. (remove the Standard Class 4 from e-mail
to reply!)
http://www.cvmrd.freeserve.co.uk (Home of the Churnet Valley Model Railway
Department)
http://www.churnet-valley-railway.co.uk (The Churnet Valley Railway Site)
http://www.kachuzyn.fsnet.co.uk (The Leek & Manifold Web site)
Martin Imber
>>free-running electric motors which operated as generators for a while
>>when the track supply disappeared
As fitted to Bullieds 70s and the BR 71s
Bill Campbell
<jo...@53amodels.karoo.co.uk> writes
>
>"Bill Campbell" <bi...@bacam.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
>> I simply purchased a brass 14mm flywheel from a local supplier -
>> Lanarkshire Models and Supplies and it was a push fit on the other end
>> of the motor shaft from the drive to the bogie.
>Interesting - all of the Lima 20s I've seen have had single ended motors -
>how do you attach a flywheel to them? This is the very reason (apart from
>smoother running) that I've purchased the double-ended Mashime 1830 - the
>flywheel simply slots on the opposite end of the motor to the universal
>drive.
>
>John.
>
>
I have had mine for several years now - it was one of the named 20s with
a bright red solebar - "River Sheaf" - in green with headcode discs.
There is certainly enough of the motor shaft protruding to mount the
flywheel. Your observation seems to suggest that different can motors
may have been fitted depending on the production batch.
Can anyone support this theory?
If so, it would certainly account for the variations in performance.
--
Bill Campbell
Steve Jones
> Your observation seems to suggest that different can motors
> may have been fitted depending on the production batch.
> Can anyone support this theory?
Yes, I've got at least 4 different types of Lima motor in my fleet of 20s.
Unfortunately the newer ones are much poorer performers :-(
John Turner
"Steve Jones" <st...@sammythecat.com> wrote
> Yes, I've got at least 4 different types of Lima motor in my fleet of 20s.
> Unfortunately the newer ones are much poorer performers :-(
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Steve Jones,
I've just checked out the ones we have in stock, and that confirms Steve's
comments. There is around 1/4" of shaft protruding from the non-drive end
of the motor. Also the pair of resistance wires which were fitted to
earlier models seem to have disappeared; could this be the reason that later
models do not run quite so well?
"So well" is a relative term and is not intended to infer that the earlier
ones were particularly good runners, otherwise this thread would never have
developed in the first place.
John.